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On January 07 2009 13:27 AzureEye wrote:
Even though Jangbi has had great results, I still don't see him as a S class player. I might also add that he's one of the weaker dragons. Bisu, Stork, Best are above him, I don't know about Free and Kal though, even though Kal's PvZ > Jangbi's PvZ
Best PvT = Stork
Best PvZ = Bisu
Best PvP = Best (arguably Bisu)
If you're one of the dragons you are an S-class pro gamer.
Best PvT = Stork / jangbi
Best PvZ = Bisu
Best PvP = Best / Bisu
imo
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On January 07 2009 21:58 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2009 13:27 AzureEye wrote:
Even though Jangbi has had great results, I still don't see him as a S class player. I might also add that he's one of the weaker dragons. Bisu, Stork, Best are above him, I don't know about Free and Kal though, even though Kal's PvZ > Jangbi's PvZ
Best PvT = Stork
Best PvZ = Bisu
Best PvP = Best (arguably Bisu)
recently Stork lost to Nada, Bisu beat every Terran he met, including Flash so there s no legitime reason to call Stork the best PVT. You might say Stork, Bisu and Jangbi are equally good in that mu. Bisu is the best PvP, Best WAS untill he lost to Stork, after that he dropped a few games. Bisu beaten Stork a few times since than,(Stork was called the best PvP) and dominated many other lesser tosses.
I disagree. I do not think it is that Bisu is that good in PvT, it is just that he is so good in general that it spills over in his PvT.
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On January 07 2009 22:39 Fwmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2009 21:58 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 07 2009 13:27 AzureEye wrote:
Even though Jangbi has had great results, I still don't see him as a S class player. I might also add that he's one of the weaker dragons. Bisu, Stork, Best are above him, I don't know about Free and Kal though, even though Kal's PvZ > Jangbi's PvZ
Best PvT = Stork
Best PvZ = Bisu
Best PvP = Best (arguably Bisu)
recently Stork lost to Nada, Bisu beat every Terran he met, including Flash so there s no legitime reason to call Stork the best PVT. You might say Stork, Bisu and Jangbi are equally good in that mu. Bisu is the best PvP, Best WAS untill he lost to Stork, after that he dropped a few games. Bisu beaten Stork a few times since than,(Stork was called the best PvP) and dominated many other lesser tosses. I disagree. I do not think it is that Bisu is that good in PvT, it is just that he is so good in general that it spills over in his PvT.
i guess you dindt saw the GOM series against Flash. Flash is a player whos playstyle really counters Bisu's and beat him even when Bisu was on his peak. Flash was slightly the favorite there, and lost in an excellent series. Did you chek Bisu's PvT stat recently? He did not lost a game to T since the MSL groups, only one against Flash, now, and he still got the series. And looked really good in that game too, but Flash played perfectly
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On January 07 2009 23:13 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2009 22:39 Fwmeh wrote:On January 07 2009 21:58 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 07 2009 13:27 AzureEye wrote:
Even though Jangbi has had great results, I still don't see him as a S class player. I might also add that he's one of the weaker dragons. Bisu, Stork, Best are above him, I don't know about Free and Kal though, even though Kal's PvZ > Jangbi's PvZ
Best PvT = Stork
Best PvZ = Bisu
Best PvP = Best (arguably Bisu)
recently Stork lost to Nada, Bisu beat every Terran he met, including Flash so there s no legitime reason to call Stork the best PVT. You might say Stork, Bisu and Jangbi are equally good in that mu. Bisu is the best PvP, Best WAS untill he lost to Stork, after that he dropped a few games. Bisu beaten Stork a few times since than,(Stork was called the best PvP) and dominated many other lesser tosses. I disagree. I do not think it is that Bisu is that good in PvT, it is just that he is so good in general that it spills over in his PvT. i guess you dindt saw the GOM series against Flash. Flash is a player whos playstyle really counters Bisu's and beat him even when Bisu was on his peak. Flash was slightly the favorite there, and lost in an excellent series. Did you chek Bisu's PvT stat recently? He did not lost a game to T since the MSL groups, only one against Flash, now, and he still got the series. And looked really good in that game too, but Flash played perfectly
I saw it. Flash didn't play perfectly. Bisu did look good, but not at PvT specifically. And no, Flash's style doesn't really counter Bisu's, unless he cheeses.
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On January 07 2009 23:38 Fwmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2009 23:13 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 07 2009 22:39 Fwmeh wrote:On January 07 2009 21:58 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 07 2009 13:27 AzureEye wrote:
Even though Jangbi has had great results, I still don't see him as a S class player. I might also add that he's one of the weaker dragons. Bisu, Stork, Best are above him, I don't know about Free and Kal though, even though Kal's PvZ > Jangbi's PvZ
Best PvT = Stork
Best PvZ = Bisu
Best PvP = Best (arguably Bisu)
recently Stork lost to Nada, Bisu beat every Terran he met, including Flash so there s no legitime reason to call Stork the best PVT. You might say Stork, Bisu and Jangbi are equally good in that mu. Bisu is the best PvP, Best WAS untill he lost to Stork, after that he dropped a few games. Bisu beaten Stork a few times since than,(Stork was called the best PvP) and dominated many other lesser tosses. I disagree. I do not think it is that Bisu is that good in PvT, it is just that he is so good in general that it spills over in his PvT. i guess you dindt saw the GOM series against Flash. Flash is a player whos playstyle really counters Bisu's and beat him even when Bisu was on his peak. Flash was slightly the favorite there, and lost in an excellent series. Did you chek Bisu's PvT stat recently? He did not lost a game to T since the MSL groups, only one against Flash, now, and he still got the series. And looked really good in that game too, but Flash played perfectly I saw it. Flash didn't play perfectly. Bisu did look good, but not at PvT specifically. And no, Flash's style doesn't really counter Bisu's, unless he cheeses.
I (unlike you) am not throwing out random statements. Check out:
http://www.gomtv.net/classics2/vod/340
http://www.gomtv.net/classics2/vod/338
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imo it did look like flash went unprepared for that BO3 vs bisu. And by unprepared i mean prepared for like 2 days or so only... since he said that in the interview.
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On January 08 2009 00:36 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
imo it did look like flash went unprepared for that BO3 vs bisu. And by unprepared i mean prepared for like 2 days or so only... since he said that in the interview.
Bisu had 2 matches befor that bo3, on the same day, one against Toss, another versus a Zerg in an ace match. So he had his hands full too.
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yes, bisu won, and that`s it. He outplayed flash even if he had 2 more games in different MUs in the same day. Flash has no excuses. However I also think that bisu`s PvT is not outstanding. His PvT is strong, like really really solid, but not exceptional, imo.
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On January 08 2009 02:26 Jaeden wrote:
yes, bisu won, and that`s it. He outplayed flash even if he had 2 more games in different MUs in the same day. Flash has no excuses. However I also think that bisu`s PvT is not outstanding. His PvT is strong, like really really solid, but not exceptional, imo.
Okay,but what counts as exceptional then? He just beat the best T v P'er in the world,the so called Dragon Slayer. I think it's pretty exceptional. Not as good as Jangbi's or Stork's,but he has a really crazy macro and game sense,and it is better than Best's or Free's imo.
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On January 08 2009 02:29 Darth Peter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2009 02:26 Jaeden wrote:
yes, bisu won, and that`s it. He outplayed flash even if he had 2 more games in different MUs in the same day. Flash has no excuses. However I also think that bisu`s PvT is not outstanding. His PvT is strong, like really really solid, but not exceptional, imo. Okay,but what counts as exceptional then? He just beat the best T v P'er in the world,the so called Dragon Slayer. I think it's pretty exceptional. Not as good as Jangbi's or Stork's,but he has a really crazy macro and game sense,and it is better than Best's or Free's imo.
yes, I even think that he has the best PvT maybe, atm, but it`s not exceptional because it`s not jaw-dropping, if u know what I mean, at least not for me  ...although that goon break was. IF he continues to play like that, than yes, I`ll agree 
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On January 08 2009 02:33 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2009 02:29 Darth Peter wrote:On January 08 2009 02:26 Jaeden wrote:
yes, bisu won, and that`s it. He outplayed flash even if he had 2 more games in different MUs in the same day. Flash has no excuses. However I also think that bisu`s PvT is not outstanding. His PvT is strong, like really really solid, but not exceptional, imo. Okay,but what counts as exceptional then? He just beat the best T v P'er in the world,the so called Dragon Slayer. I think it's pretty exceptional. Not as good as Jangbi's or Stork's,but he has a really crazy macro and game sense,and it is better than Best's or Free's imo. yes, I even think that he has the best PvT maybe, atm, but it`s not exceptional because it`s not jaw-dropping, if u know what I mean, at least not for me ...although that goon break was. IF he continues to play like that, than yes, I`ll agree
And the other great moment for me was when he defended that 5 fac. What I absolutely love in Bisu is that he is not just a macro machine like Best,who rolls everybody with standard play and chokes against riskier builds like 4 gate(like vs Stork),but he can adapt to his opponents strategies and defend against anything. It seems like he has such a deep knowledge in his race and knows how to counter everything. FS,when will the new PR come out?
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On January 08 2009 02:26 Jaeden wrote:
yes, bisu won, and that`s it. He outplayed flash even if he had 2 more games in different MUs in the same day. Flash has no excuses. However I also think that bisu`s PvT is not outstanding. His PvT is strong, like really really solid, but not exceptional, imo.
Flash had excuses, id ont know why u say he didn't. He told the exuse in an interview before the games. He is usually cocky and sais he is going to win games, but bwefore the series he said he was unprepared. He had prepared for a BO3 in the OSL.
I dont care if bisu played 2 games on the same day, you dont prepare the same way for a proleague match, specially not an ACE match since you font even know your opponent. If bisu prepared for the games vs flash and flash didn't than thats an excuse.
Excuses does exist, i dont know who made it into a myth
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On January 08 2009 03:39 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2009 02:26 Jaeden wrote:
yes, bisu won, and that`s it. He outplayed flash even if he had 2 more games in different MUs in the same day. Flash has no excuses. However I also think that bisu`s PvT is not outstanding. His PvT is strong, like really really solid, but not exceptional, imo. Flash had excuses, id ont know why u say he didn't. He told the exuse in an interview before the games. He is usually cocky and sais he is going to win games, but bwefore the series he said he was unprepared. He had prepared for a BO3 in the OSL. I dont care if bisu played 2 games on the same day, you dont prepare the same way for a proleague match, specially not an ACE match since you font even know your opponent. If bisu prepared for the games vs flash and flash didn't than thats an excuse. Excuses does exist, i dont know who made it into a myth
He had two days of practice for Bisu, he still played really well. Its not like Stork practicing for OSL finals. If you are saying that Flash would've won if he had more practice time you are wrong. Bisu had the proleague on the same day as well. GOM ro8 should be more important than OSL ro36. They both played very well and Bisu simply is the better player at the moment.
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On January 08 2009 03:54 Nick_54 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2009 03:39 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 08 2009 02:26 Jaeden wrote:
yes, bisu won, and that`s it. He outplayed flash even if he had 2 more games in different MUs in the same day. Flash has no excuses. However I also think that bisu`s PvT is not outstanding. His PvT is strong, like really really solid, but not exceptional, imo. Flash had excuses, id ont know why u say he didn't. He told the exuse in an interview before the games. He is usually cocky and sais he is going to win games, but bwefore the series he said he was unprepared. He had prepared for a BO3 in the OSL. I dont care if bisu played 2 games on the same day, you dont prepare the same way for a proleague match, specially not an ACE match since you font even know your opponent. If bisu prepared for the games vs flash and flash didn't than thats an excuse. Excuses does exist, i dont know who made it into a myth He had two days of practice for Bisu, he still played really well. Its not like Stork practicing for OSL finals. If you are saying that Flash would've won if he had more practice time you are wrong. Bisu had the proleague on the same day as well. GOM ro8 should be more important than OSL ro36. They both played very well and Bisu simply is the better player at the moment.
Im not saying that it means flash would have won. Thats just speculation, all im saying is that he said he wasn't prepared, while bisu thought of flash as a very tough opponent (given their history) and was very well prepared. It doesnt matter if he played games on the same day or whatever, flash was not prepared and bisu was. So saying that he's just the better player PvT, rather than Flash is TvP is not really correct.
Again im not saying it would mean that flash would have won if he was more prepared, i just think that you should not be so fast judging bisus TvP over storks or jangbis or bests based on a performance vs a not-so-prepared flash.
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On January 08 2009 00:10 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2009 23:38 Fwmeh wrote:On January 07 2009 23:13 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 07 2009 22:39 Fwmeh wrote:On January 07 2009 21:58 Geo.Rion wrote:On January 07 2009 13:27 AzureEye wrote:
Even though Jangbi has had great results, I still don't see him as a S class player. I might also add that he's one of the weaker dragons. Bisu, Stork, Best are above him, I don't know about Free and Kal though, even though Kal's PvZ > Jangbi's PvZ
Best PvT = Stork
Best PvZ = Bisu
Best PvP = Best (arguably Bisu)
recently Stork lost to Nada, Bisu beat every Terran he met, including Flash so there s no legitime reason to call Stork the best PVT. You might say Stork, Bisu and Jangbi are equally good in that mu. Bisu is the best PvP, Best WAS untill he lost to Stork, after that he dropped a few games. Bisu beaten Stork a few times since than,(Stork was called the best PvP) and dominated many other lesser tosses. I disagree. I do not think it is that Bisu is that good in PvT, it is just that he is so good in general that it spills over in his PvT. i guess you dindt saw the GOM series against Flash. Flash is a player whos playstyle really counters Bisu's and beat him even when Bisu was on his peak. Flash was slightly the favorite there, and lost in an excellent series. Did you chek Bisu's PvT stat recently? He did not lost a game to T since the MSL groups, only one against Flash, now, and he still got the series. And looked really good in that game too, but Flash played perfectly I saw it. Flash didn't play perfectly. Bisu did look good, but not at PvT specifically. And no, Flash's style doesn't really counter Bisu's, unless he cheeses. I (unlike you) am not throwing out random statements. Check out: http://www.gomtv.net/classics2/vod/340http://www.gomtv.net/classics2/vod/338
You are not even making statements, you just linked games I watched live. Nothing new to see at all.
I kinda doubt that you are capable of understanding the point I am making, but I will try one more time.
Imagine that that you play protoss. Imagine that we have some random protoss progamer. We can assume that he is better at PvT than you, right? Now imagine we cut both his hands of. Now, you would probably win matches that he can't. But you can agree that he would still be better at PvT, right? He just wouldn't be able to play to his full capability in that MU. Now, Bisu is the opposite of that, he has like an extra pair of hands and eyes. He is better at "starcraft" than he is at PvT. It is his skill in PvT, though it is of course very very good, that is holding back his overall higher level of skill.
And lastly, don't even pretend that Flash played that perfectly. Perfect has a very specific meaning.
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9071 Posts
I dont know who played perfectly and who didnt. Bisu made his trademark stupid recalls, Flash was not at his best as well, mostly by the timing push in game 2, but the series were great nevertheless. In overall Bisu had a gameplan and Flash sort of didnt- he played like he would against any other toss, he was confident in his skill but this time it was not enough. Imo Bisu is currently the best toss in all MUs , especially in PvP. The stats say it all, he was slightly above the 50% quote by his epic MSL final against stork, ever since he is constantly improving to his current +60%, I dont agree with the statement that his PvT is questionable- its actually quite impressive, but he is not far above the 50% because he played many games in this MU, some of them were part of epic series like vs Up and Hwasin, but in the end of the day Bisu was victorious in all of them (except for the encounters vs flash and mind ofc but shit happens). My point is that he has nothing to prove in this area, he can beat the very best TvPers
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And if Bisu will beat Mind,or anybody,people will still invent reasons that,well it was because Mind was sick,or he wasn't prepared,or because he suddenly couldn't see well with his eyeglasses and stupid shit like that. I don't know why people have to speculate all the freakin' time.
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On January 08 2009 05:01 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2009 03:54 Nick_54 wrote:On January 08 2009 03:39 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 08 2009 02:26 Jaeden wrote:
yes, bisu won, and that`s it. He outplayed flash even if he had 2 more games in different MUs in the same day. Flash has no excuses. However I also think that bisu`s PvT is not outstanding. His PvT is strong, like really really solid, but not exceptional, imo. Flash had excuses, id ont know why u say he didn't. He told the exuse in an interview before the games. He is usually cocky and sais he is going to win games, but bwefore the series he said he was unprepared. He had prepared for a BO3 in the OSL. I dont care if bisu played 2 games on the same day, you dont prepare the same way for a proleague match, specially not an ACE match since you font even know your opponent. If bisu prepared for the games vs flash and flash didn't than thats an excuse. Excuses does exist, i dont know who made it into a myth He had two days of practice for Bisu, he still played really well. Its not like Stork practicing for OSL finals. If you are saying that Flash would've won if he had more practice time you are wrong. Bisu had the proleague on the same day as well. GOM ro8 should be more important than OSL ro36. They both played very well and Bisu simply is the better player at the moment. Im not saying that it means flash would have won. Thats just speculation, all im saying is that he said he wasn't prepared, while bisu thought of flash as a very tough opponent (given their history) and was very well prepared. It doesnt matter if he played games on the same day or whatever, flash was not prepared and bisu was. So saying that he's just the better player PvT, rather than Flash is TvP is not really correct. Again im not saying it would mean that flash would have won if he was more prepared, i just think that you should not be so fast judging bisus TvP over storks or jangbis or bests based on a performance vs a not-so-prepared flash.
it`s like sayin jd lost to upmagic `coz he was anxious for his party, and come to think of it this is more likely(the all-in suggests somethin`)
ur not gettin` my point, sure, maybe flash didn`t practice like he wanted but still, there are no excuses for losing, bisu beat him in a fair way, no rushes or etc. This is a tipic fanboy thing when they come with excuses for every lose that their favorite player has. Flash didn`t practice, if he did he would've won ; Flash went 14cc, if he didn`t go that way he would`ve won, etc. A loss is a loss, accept it. Bisu played better than him. If he didn`t practice it`s his fault, all credit goes to bisu, and I`m not even a bisu fan.
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9071 Posts
On January 08 2009 06:01 Darth Peter wrote:
And if Bisu will beat Mind,or anybody,people will still invent reasons that,well it was because Mind was sick,or he wasn't prepared,or because he suddenly couldn't see well with his eyeglasses and stupid shit like that. I don't know why people have to speculate all the freakin' time.
Bisu beat the shit out of Mind in Bacchus OSL, the game was not even funny
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EPT
