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On January 06 2009 01:45 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2009 12:06 baubo wrote:On January 04 2009 21:46 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On January 04 2009 09:23 baubo wrote:
Creativity is overrated, IMO. Flash no longer has creativity(he used to). Stork for a long time gathered silvers without creativity. Once you succeed by playing a certain style, usually you don't deviate unless you are naturally creative, like Kal or FBH.
The problem with Leta is that he's shown a conservative style that's of LOWER quality than the top players. I happened to have seen both his game against Jangbi and against Best. Both players just crushed him. It's what happens when a conservative player plays a better player. Yep. There's a huge difference between Leta's play and Flash's. However, I think it's correct to say that there aren't currently 10 people who qualify as 'better' players right now. Leta's level of play isn't the top, but it's pretty good and incredibly consistant. That's true. I do think he deserves to be near the bottom of top 10. 3rd best terran right now behind Flash and FBH. When I said top players, I actually meant like top 5 rather than top 10. That said, I don't believe he's played any top terrans recently beside Mind and Sea(the latter almost doesn't count because it was the OSL not PL). So it's hard to say where he fits among them. On January 05 2009 11:32 fanatacist wrote:On January 05 2009 11:01 Kuja900 wrote:On January 05 2009 10:14 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 05 2009 09:43 FzeroXx wrote:
1. Bisu
2. Flash
3. Jaedong
4. Jangbi
5. Stork
6. Best
7. Leta
8. Mind
9. Effort
10. FBH
(gaps = skill gaps at the moment)
Skill gaps don't always translate to a PR ranking, as in this month's case Last's month's too. + these gaps just arent true On the contrary, I think these gaps are somewhat accurate. What would your gaps be? Also, I think that skill gaps generally do translate to a PR ranking... It's not just about titles, records, and Ro#s. The PR in my opinion is a measure of overall skill at the moment. I'd go something like Bisu Flash/Stork/Jangbi Jaedong/Best Leta/FBH/Free Mind/Kal/I'm sure I'm forgetting some others... Jaedong has been playing like a beast recently, but it only extends back one month. And the players aren't exactly "slumping" either, all playing very well in general. As for Flash, he hasn't beaten a top 10 player in months. Leta is better than FBH, and I would say Mind too, although I see ur khan icon 
What has Leta accomplished that makes you so certain of this?
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1-  Bisu - altough i dont really like him, he is spectacular in PvZ, macrogod in PvT and a bit shaky in PvP
2- Stork - like Bisu he also beat  Flash but overall had a better month than the last one when he was outplayed by most of the zergs he encountered. BackHo matches should not be that important since they have a history, BackHo eliminating him 2 seasons ago, when  July won OSL.
3- Jaedong - yep, nobody can confront that he has that devil's smile on his face and the look that scares his enemies and make them wet their panties. He single handed beat 3 teams almost by himself last month.
4- Flash - sick records in PL, doing really good shows on his v P matches lately, but unfortunately he lost them
5- JangBi - he is now what BeSt[HyO] used to be last season: after a start with only one good MU (v T) he improved alot his PvZ (embarassing Yarnc several times) and winning against v P (Kal).
6- Leta - he is fucking constant and by making no mistakes he forces the opponent to make mistakes which translates in clean and sure victories. Heil!
7- BeSt[HyO] - he is an reliable player of SKT, but in tough times he cracked like an egg (OSL final vs July, OSL semifinal vs Stork and in recent times the series against SkyHigh - who is not a S-class player and in still failed to qualify for MSL loosing to a noname). The difference between him and JD is that JD pull his act together and start dominating again while Best does the usual PL good games which JD had too even in times when he was playing poorly against terrans and protoss.
8- free - altough he is one of my favorites, he lost to Kal but he remains the reason why Stars are so unbelieveble now. His game vs RuBy, couple months ago is high class, a something to teach in schools for reaver harass, with 42 kills.
9- Kal - he beat free and he is transforming in Jaedongs nightmare, beating him twice in such small time. I enjoy his PvZ more than Bisu's because its less riskier than what Bisu is doing.
10- Mind - Mind have like the best TvP right now when Flash took beatings from 2 dragons. He eliminated one dragon (Kal) from Gom.
CNBC: UpMagiC - played briliantly in his group, firebathero - because his TvZ and TvT MUs, fOrGG - for being heavy reliable for Lecaf and fantasy - who is learning from his mistakes and even Best's mistakes and play with intelligence and not with mechanics like Best.
Thank you and good night!
Elvis has left the building
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1- (P)Bisu - altough i dont really like him, he is spectacular in PvZ, macrogod in PvT and a bit shaky in PvP
When exactly was the last time his PvP looked shaky? Was it when he lost 1-2 to Stork a few months ago in the OSL? Because his PvP has been insane recently. 3-0 vs Free, 3-1 vs Jangbi, beat Stork in PL, and beaten pretty much every single other P he has faced in PL as well.
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On January 06 2009 08:53 Phradamon wrote:1- Bisu - altough i dont really like him, he is spectacular in PvZ, macrogod in PvT and a bit shaky in PvP 2- Stork - like Bisu he also beat Flash but overall had a better month than the last one when he was outplayed by most of the zergs he encountered. BackHo matches should not be that important since they have a history, BackHo eliminating him 2 seasons ago, when July won OSL. 3- Jaedong - yep, nobody can confront that he has that devil's smile on his face and the look that scares his enemies and make them wet their panties. He single handed beat 3 teams almost by himself last month. 4- Flash - sick records in PL, doing really good shows on his v P matches lately, but unfortunately he lost them 5- JangBi - he is now what BeSt[HyO] used to be last season: after a start with only one good MU (v T) he improved alot his PvZ (embarassing Yarnc several times) and winning against v P ( Kal). 6- Leta - he is fucking constant and by making no mistakes he forces the opponent to make mistakes which translates in clean and sure victories. Heil! 7- BeSt[HyO] - he is an reliable player of SKT, but in tough times he cracked like an egg (OSL final vs July, OSL semifinal vs Stork and in recent times the series against SkyHigh - who is not a S-class player and in still failed to qualify for MSL loosing to a noname). The difference between him and JD is that JD pull his act together and start dominating again while Best does the usual PL good games which JD had too even in times when he was playing poorly against terrans and protoss. 8- free - altough he is one of my favorites, he lost to Kal but he remains the reason why Stars are so unbelieveble now. His game vs RuBy, couple months ago is high class, a something to teach in schools for reaver harass, with 42 kills. 9- Kal - he beat free and he is transforming in Jaedongs nightmare, beating him twice in such small time. I enjoy his PvZ more than Bisu's because its less riskier than what Bisu is doing. 10- Mind - Mind have like the best TvP right now when Flash took beatings from 2 dragons. He eliminated one dragon ( Kal) from Gom. CNBC: UpMagiC - played briliantly in his group, firebathero - because his TvZ and TvT MUs, fOrGG - for being heavy reliable for Lecaf and fantasy - who is learning from his mistakes and even Best's mistakes and play with intelligence and not with mechanics like Best. Thank you and good night! Elvis has left the building
Mind doesn't even have close to the TvP of FlaSh. firebathero is a much better player than him.
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Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure.
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On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure.
I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC.
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On January 06 2009 12:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure. I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC.
The manner he played his series vs Bisu was unimpressive to say the least. It's not that he lost, but rather he got owned really bad that leaves his TvP in question. It's a toss-up between him and Mind at this point. Is Mind still in the MSL?
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On January 06 2009 12:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure. I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC.
He was sorta ass raped by Bisu, though. And it was right after people thought his TvP was turning over a new leaf.
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On January 06 2009 07:25 DamageControL wrote:
1.Bisu
2.JD
3.Flash
I'm not sure who is BETTER between JD and Flash, but I do know JD has been putting up results.
JD has beaten SkyHigh twice, and Hwasin Once. He has also beaten fantasy.
He's beaten Bisu and Anytime.
8-2 in his last 10
Flash in his also 8-2 in his last ten only losing to Bisu.
But he has beaten Bisu once.
His next most impressive wins are...Casy and Effort.
He also lost to JD and Stork before his last ten games putting him at 8-4 in his last 12.
Yeah flash looks good right now, playing excellently, but honestly, so does JD and he beat Bisu convincingly.
EDIT: Mind is really really good.
Sick timing senses...
I'm thinking exactly this +
4. Jangbi- doing insane in proleague and he's in the quarter finals of gom, where he will most likely win vs backho
5. Stork- still good (beating flash, etc.) but jangbi is doing better everywhere
and I'm not sure about the rest. The remaining three dragons and two of the three other good terrans now? (fbh/leta/mind)
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On January 06 2009 13:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 12:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure. I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC. The manner he played his series vs Bisu was unimpressive to say the least. It's not that he lost, but rather he got owned really bad that leaves his TvP in question. It's a toss-up between him and Mind at this point. Is Mind still in the MSL?
On January 06 2009 14:00 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 12:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure. I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC. He was sorta ass raped by Bisu, though. And it was right after people thought his TvP was turning over a new leaf.
I think it's pretty much safe to say that when people can only use the best player in the world to criticize your ability, it's actually pretty good.
It's like disregarding Sea or ForGG's TvP because every time they meet Stork, they get raped.
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But they've had a reputation for TvP before, we can't say the same for FBH, he had 5 wins? And now he's still getting raped again in TvP vs any decent PvT toss. That represents shakiness to me, which was the original point. He can't sustain his results, fOrGG and Sea get the benefit of the doubt for past achievements+no glaring drop in skill in TvP.
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On January 06 2009 14:39 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 13:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 06 2009 12:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure. I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC. The manner he played his series vs Bisu was unimpressive to say the least. It's not that he lost, but rather he got owned really bad that leaves his TvP in question. It's a toss-up between him and Mind at this point. Is Mind still in the MSL? Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 14:00 Sentenal wrote:On January 06 2009 12:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure. I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC. He was sorta ass raped by Bisu, though. And it was right after people thought his TvP was turning over a new leaf. I think it's pretty much safe to say that when people can only use the best player in the world to criticize your ability, it's actually pretty good. It's like disregarding Sea or ForGG's TvP because every time they meet Stork, they get raped.
Except when Bisu did ass rape FBH, he was not considered the best player in the world, and no one expected him to win the MSL. Bisu is extremely good, and I've always been his fan, but he has never been known for PvT. And beyond that MSL series, he has barely played any TvPs after it.
Basically, FBH won MSL group full of Protoss, and people thought he was finally going to start being good. Then he was violently raped. Do we know his overall strength in the MU now? No, we don't. Is it safer to say he is still bad? Yes.
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On January 06 2009 14:39 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 13:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 06 2009 12:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure. I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC. The manner he played his series vs Bisu was unimpressive to say the least. It's not that he lost, but rather he got owned really bad that leaves his TvP in question. It's a toss-up between him and Mind at this point. Is Mind still in the MSL? Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 14:00 Sentenal wrote:On January 06 2009 12:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure. I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC. He was sorta ass raped by Bisu, though. And it was right after people thought his TvP was turning over a new leaf. I think it's pretty much safe to say that when people can only use the best player in the world to criticize your ability, it's actually pretty good. It's like disregarding Sea or ForGG's TvP because every time they meet Stork, they get raped.
Mind is out of MSL via SkyHigh in the prelims, but FBH is also out of OSL, so it shouldn't be a huge deal. Mind should get a lot of credit for his deep GOM run beating Kal and a GGplay in pretty decent form. FBH meanwhile just bombed out hard against Bogus. However, FBH had tough victories over Jaedong with bcs. Firebathero's tvp doesn't seem that weak to me just weaker than his other matchups and weaker than the tvp skills of the other elite terrans.
I would give it Mind simply based on the fact that he is basically carrying Wemade alone and his GOM run. At this moment my list would be.
1. Bisu
2. Flash
3. Jaedong
4. Jangbi
5. Stork (ok I am dropping him cuz the OSL title is the only thing holding his reputation and high rank, Bisu, Flash, and Jaedong are definitly playing better and I believe Jangbi is as well.)
6. BeSt
7. Leta
8. Kal
9. Mind
10. Free
CBNC- FBH, Effort, ForGG
Also, ForGG and Effort are both playing really well. It sucks Effort didn't qualify for either league. and ForGG is in MSL. Effort impressed me against Bisu, Jaedong is the only zerg playing better. ForGG is playing really well and has won nine of his last ten games. His tvt has improved a lot and his tvz mech is very crazy. His tvp used to be ridiculos, but if he can fix this (he did steamroll Rock not saying much though). I think he will show some pride being a former MSL champion this MSL and make a deep run.
So yeah, Steve and everyone else I would like to know what you think about Effort and ForGG being at least CBNC and possibly on the rank?
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On January 06 2009 14:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
But they've had a reputation for TvP before, we can't say the same for FBH, he had 5 wins? And now he's still getting raped again in TvP vs any decent PvT toss. That represents shakiness to me, which was the original point. He can't sustain his results, fOrGG and Sea get the benefit of the doubt for past achievements+no glaring drop in skill in TvP.
I'm not sure about your point on his history. He was horrible at the matchup. Now he's good at it. Players improve, just like Jaedong sucked at one point ZvP and then improved. Or that Anytime sucked at PvZ at one time then improved. Players abilities change.
And I'm surprised you basically call Best, Free, and Bisu "decent" PvT protosses. I personally think they're really good at it, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.
Btw, I used ForGG and Sea as examples because if you look at their games against Stork, they looked BAD, as in you really felt they had no chance. Hence, the point that just because you lose to one player badly over and over doesn't imply you suck.
On January 06 2009 15:00 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 14:39 baubo wrote:On January 06 2009 13:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 06 2009 12:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure. I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC. The manner he played his series vs Bisu was unimpressive to say the least. It's not that he lost, but rather he got owned really bad that leaves his TvP in question. It's a toss-up between him and Mind at this point. Is Mind still in the MSL? On January 06 2009 14:00 Sentenal wrote:On January 06 2009 12:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure. I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC. He was sorta ass raped by Bisu, though. And it was right after people thought his TvP was turning over a new leaf. I think it's pretty much safe to say that when people can only use the best player in the world to criticize your ability, it's actually pretty good. It's like disregarding Sea or ForGG's TvP because every time they meet Stork, they get raped. Except when Bisu did ass rape FBH, he was not considered the best player in the world, and no one expected him to win the MSL. Bisu is extremely good, and I've always been his fan, but he has never been known for PvT. And beyond that MSL series, he has barely played any TvPs after it.
So just because he wasn't considered a top PvT back then meant that he didn't play top level PvT then? Are you telling me that Bisu only played mediocre against Hwasin and FBH?
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9070 Posts
PvP is currently Bisu's best MU
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On January 06 2009 15:33 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 14:44 Avidkeystamper wrote:
But they've had a reputation for TvP before, we can't say the same for FBH, he had 5 wins? And now he's still getting raped again in TvP vs any decent PvT toss. That represents shakiness to me, which was the original point. He can't sustain his results, fOrGG and Sea get the benefit of the doubt for past achievements+no glaring drop in skill in TvP. I'm not sure about your point on his history. He was horrible at the matchup. Now he's good at it. Players improve, just like Jaedong sucked at one point ZvP and then improved. Or that Anytime sucked at PvZ at one time then improved. Players abilities change. And I'm surprised you basically call Best, Free, and Bisu "decent" PvT protosses. I personally think they're really good at it, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. Btw, I used ForGG and Sea as examples because if you look at their games against Stork, they looked BAD, as in you really felt they had no chance. Hence, the point that just because you lose to one player badly over and over doesn't imply you suck. Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 15:00 Sentenal wrote:On January 06 2009 14:39 baubo wrote:On January 06 2009 13:05 Avidkeystamper wrote:On January 06 2009 12:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure. I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC. The manner he played his series vs Bisu was unimpressive to say the least. It's not that he lost, but rather he got owned really bad that leaves his TvP in question. It's a toss-up between him and Mind at this point. Is Mind still in the MSL? On January 06 2009 14:00 Sentenal wrote:On January 06 2009 12:58 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On January 06 2009 12:55 Sentenal wrote:
Overall I don't know where I would put FBH. His TvZ and TvT are some of the very best in Progaming. His TvP showed signs of improving during his MSL run, but then Bisu raped him, so that came into question yet again. And with the majority of the top tier players now-days being Protoss (the 6 Dragons), that leaves his TvP as a very big hole/question mark in his overall performance. Are two very good MUs enough to compensate for what may be a very bad one, considering his "very bad" one is arguably the most important MU a Terran player can have right now? I'm not really sure. I don't think dropping a TvP to Bisu means his MU is shaky. He's steadily improving in his TvP and I think he deserves far more credit than CNBC. He was sorta ass raped by Bisu, though. And it was right after people thought his TvP was turning over a new leaf. I think it's pretty much safe to say that when people can only use the best player in the world to criticize your ability, it's actually pretty good. It's like disregarding Sea or ForGG's TvP because every time they meet Stork, they get raped. Except when Bisu did ass rape FBH, he was not considered the best player in the world, and no one expected him to win the MSL. Bisu is extremely good, and I've always been his fan, but he has never been known for PvT. And beyond that MSL series, he has barely played any TvPs after it. So just because he wasn't considered a top PvT back then meant that he didn't play top level PvT then? Are you telling me that Bisu only played mediocre against Hwasin and FBH?
Bisu played great, but sometimes its hard to tell if a player was owning because their competition sucked, or because they really did play flawlessly. And due to that ambiguity, thats why I've said FBH's TvP is still a big question mark. Bisu looked just as good in that series, as FBH looked bad. It looked like the old FBH who couldn't TvP out of a wet paper bag.
And then after that, you make the claim that FBH is now good at TvP? WTF how can you even come to that conclusion?
I mean lets look at his TvP. He won group stages last MSL against Much and Bisu. We now know that Much is slumping and can hardly win anything. Vs Bisu is a "good" win, but honestly I think that was before Bisu started getting good again. Then he beat Tempest. Tempest isn't exactly a shining example of PvT might. Other than possibly a win vs a Pre-Ownage Bisu, none of those games are big indicators that hes good at the MU now. There is hope for him, but nothing more than hope. Plus this was several months ago. Then Bisu rapes him 3-0. In PL, he beat Daezang (who cares), and lost to Best. So really, the only worth while TvP victory he has had since Ro8 last MSL was a win over Kal. And even then that win was kinda ugly.
All of this means that there is no way you can possibly come to the conclusion that his TvP is good now. Its either bad, or a question mark.
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On January 06 2009 12:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 08:53 Phradamon wrote:1- Bisu - altough i dont really like him, he is spectacular in PvZ, macrogod in PvT and a bit shaky in PvP 2- Stork - like Bisu he also beat Flash but overall had a better month than the last one when he was outplayed by most of the zergs he encountered. BackHo matches should not be that important since they have a history, BackHo eliminating him 2 seasons ago, when July won OSL. 3- Jaedong - yep, nobody can confront that he has that devil's smile on his face and the look that scares his enemies and make them wet their panties. He single handed beat 3 teams almost by himself last month. 4- Flash - sick records in PL, doing really good shows on his v P matches lately, but unfortunately he lost them 5- JangBi - he is now what BeSt[HyO] used to be last season: after a start with only one good MU (v T) he improved alot his PvZ (embarassing Yarnc several times) and winning against v P ( Kal). 6- Leta - he is fucking constant and by making no mistakes he forces the opponent to make mistakes which translates in clean and sure victories. Heil! 7- BeSt[HyO] - he is an reliable player of SKT, but in tough times he cracked like an egg (OSL final vs July, OSL semifinal vs Stork and in recent times the series against SkyHigh - who is not a S-class player and in still failed to qualify for MSL loosing to a noname). The difference between him and JD is that JD pull his act together and start dominating again while Best does the usual PL good games which JD had too even in times when he was playing poorly against terrans and protoss. 8- free - altough he is one of my favorites, he lost to Kal but he remains the reason why Stars are so unbelieveble now. His game vs RuBy, couple months ago is high class, a something to teach in schools for reaver harass, with 42 kills. 9- Kal - he beat free and he is transforming in Jaedongs nightmare, beating him twice in such small time. I enjoy his PvZ more than Bisu's because its less riskier than what Bisu is doing. 10- Mind - Mind have like the best TvP right now when Flash took beatings from 2 dragons. He eliminated one dragon ( Kal) from Gom. CNBC: UpMagiC - played briliantly in his group, firebathero - because his TvZ and TvT MUs, fOrGG - for being heavy reliable for Lecaf and fantasy - who is learning from his mistakes and even Best's mistakes and play with intelligence and not with mechanics like Best. Thank you and good night! Elvis has left the building Mind doesn't even have close to the TvP of FlaSh. firebathero is a much better player than him.
FBH is not a much better player than Mind. Firebathero is spectacular in 2 matchups, but it is impossible to overlook that his TvP is lacking. Mind on the other hand is very good in all 3 matchups and is still capable of destroying any player on the planet on his better days.
Just compare the records of both players against the 6 dragons, Mind is very much in the positive against them, while FBH is not capable of handling any of those 6.
I would say that Mind and FBH are about equal in skill, the only difference between the two is that Mind is in the ro8 of a league, while FBH is not. Just for that I would give Mind the advantage on PR.
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Any estimates on when we'll be able to enjoy the new PR, oh Crotchmaster?
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Why does everyone put jeadong so high?
He won a few pro leauge matches but he also lost a quite alot of games he shouldnt lose.
#3 rank I think is overrated cause he has not done anything yet to proof he really belongs there in his current shape and his gameplay looks really shaky atm.
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On January 06 2009 21:43 4Servy wrote:
Why does everyone put jeadong so high?
He won a few pro leauge matches but he also lost a quite alot of games he shouldnt lose.
#3 rank I think is overrated cause he has not done anything yet to proof he really belongs there in his current shape and his gameplay looks really shaky atm.
+ Show Spoiler + hahah I was absolutely sure some JD hater will come after his last match vs upmagic he played it the wrong way, it was an all-in and he assumed the risk. It`s not like if he went 4 pool and didn`t win, he`s a bad player. (maybe he just wanted to party :>)
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EPT
