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On January 03 2009 04:53 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 01:33 fanatacist wrote:
So no one can provide me with a good Leta game where he played exceptionally well?
I think that solidifies FS's argument for why he should not progress past the bottom 3 ranks of the PR, or far in an SL. or it means no one has read it or wanted to post any link to a vod he obviously plays really well making few mistakes or his record wouldn't be so good. i myself haven't watched many of his games but im looking forward to watching them soon with some snacks and redbull!
There is a difference between winning through great play and winning through what FS described, which is waiting for the enemy to make mistakes instead of initiating your own victory.
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What a pathetic way to discredit Sea.Leta. A great player puts pressure on his opponents and forces them to make mistakes. Not making a mistake on your own is a sign of a player with good, careful execution, an achievement in itself. Writing off losses as "playing badly" and discrediting opponents is getting pretty old.
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On January 03 2009 08:40 vnlegend wrote:
What a pathetic way to discredit Sea.Leta. A great player puts pressure on his opponents and forces them to make mistakes. Not making a mistake on your own is a sign of a player with good, careful execution, an achievement in itself. Writing off losses as "playing badly" and discrediting opponents is getting pretty old.
Did I say he played badly? No. I just said he didn't play exceptionally, which I think is important to go far in SLs and on the PR. Please provide me a VOD of his flawless play, or refer me to a game and I will find it.
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On January 03 2009 08:40 vnlegend wrote:
What a pathetic way to discredit Sea.Leta. A great player puts pressure on his opponents and forces them to make mistakes. Not making a mistake on your own is a sign of a player with good, careful execution, an achievement in itself. Writing off losses as "playing badly" and discrediting opponents is getting pretty old.
He didn't discredit Leta. He merely said that until he shows evidence to the contrary, he will have to agree with FS's sentiment that Leta doesn't win in a active manner. Merely, he plays passively until his opponents mess up and he takes advantage of it. The concern with that is some people do no consider this worthy of a high spot on the PR. Obvious, the wins count, and Leta is guaranteed a rank next month, but until he shows impressive play, he won't climb too far.
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On January 03 2009 08:52 fanatacist wrote:
Did I say he played badly? No. I just said he didn't play exceptionally, which I think is important to go far in SLs and on the PR. Please provide me a VOD of his flawless play, or refer me to a game and I will find it.
Everyone already knows what will happens after they give you a VOD. You point out some things that you believe supports your theory and the others disagree. Pointless discussion.
Talking about what wins are good and bad are always what makes the Power Rank discussions suck. Especially when one side honestly believe their own theory is 100 % right and use their own biased analysis to support it.
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On January 03 2009 13:45 Krigstar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 08:52 fanatacist wrote:
Did I say he played badly? No. I just said he didn't play exceptionally, which I think is important to go far in SLs and on the PR. Please provide me a VOD of his flawless play, or refer me to a game and I will find it. Everyone already knows what will happens after they give you a VOD. You point out some things that you believe supports your theory and the others disagree. Pointless discussion. Talking about what wins are good and bad are always what makes the Power Rank discussions suck. Especially when one side honestly believe their own theory is 100 % right and use their own biased analysis to support it.
Um, no. I'm sorry if it came off that way, or maybe you/other people are just pessimistic when trying to read into the intent of others, but I was actually just curious to see what the hype was about. I saw the Leta vs. Sea games, Leta played well but it was more that Sea played poorly which defined the outcome of the series. That is why I asked for people who were advocating Leta to show me a VOD of his strong play winning a closer game, so that I could FORMULATE an opinion, not solidify one that I had previously (I actually didn't have one until the lack of evidence led me to suspect that FS is right).
Talking about what wins are good and bad can be very subjective, yes, but a lot of the time it isn't, and I feel this is such a case. If all of Leta's victories are similar to the game vs. Sea, then there isn't much of an argument for his skill being SL material. I personally believe Sea played poorly in that series, and many people would agree. I don't see how my analysis is biased. However, if you think it is biased, feel free to argue your point with me or provide a different Leta VOD that you think is exemplary. I don't see why this would be difficult.
However, I guess being a judgmental asshole about it is easier than that, so I understand where you're coming from.
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On January 03 2009 14:43 fanatacist wrote:
Talking about what wins are good and bad can be very subjective, yes, but a lot of the time it isn't, and I feel this is such a case. If all of Leta's victories are similar to the game vs. Sea, then there isn't much of an argument for his skill being SL material. I personally believe Sea played poorly in that series, and many people would agree. I don't see how my analysis is biased. However, if you think it is biased, feel free to argue your point with me or provide a different Leta VOD that you think is exemplary. I don't see why this would be difficult.
It's not difficult but it's useless.
You can turn things around to look different in so many ways, specially in Starcraft. I've already said this before but I do it again. For example:
A terran loses a bunch of vessels could mean many different things for different people:
"The Zerg's scourge micro is insane."
"The Terran's multitasking/vessel micro sucks."
"Buildorderwin."
"Nothing Terran can do."
etcetc
Or my new personal favorite:
"The terran plays actively instead of camping and waiting for the opponent to make mistakes which makes him better even though he loses and the standard Terran camper would've won." (sorry but looooooooooooooooooooooool)
Ok my original point was to say that no one should believe they are right since none of you know the game enough to see every little thing a pro-gamer does. I am for discussing and I am for biased discussions because that is unavoidable. When the two parts start to discuss what biased view is the best and bring up stupid shit like amount of games watched, experience in analyzing games etc to support their own statements, THAT is when things get ridiculous. The bottom line is that Leta fans have the results to back them up while Sea fans have their own analysis. I don't judge in what you value the most, but that is the fact.
My other post was not meant to attack you or others just to point out that there is no reason to act like elitist asses when the discussions only are about subjective things. Also, even though Steve may play better than me and knows more about the game, that doesn't change the fact that he has predicted Seas performance wrong since the beginning of time. You have to look at the big picture.
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On January 03 2009 23:18 Krigstar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 14:43 fanatacist wrote:
Talking about what wins are good and bad can be very subjective, yes, but a lot of the time it isn't, and I feel this is such a case. If all of Leta's victories are similar to the game vs. Sea, then there isn't much of an argument for his skill being SL material. I personally believe Sea played poorly in that series, and many people would agree. I don't see how my analysis is biased. However, if you think it is biased, feel free to argue your point with me or provide a different Leta VOD that you think is exemplary. I don't see why this would be difficult.
It's not difficult but it's useless. You can turn things around to look different in so many ways, specially in Starcraft. I've already said this before but I do it again. For example: A terran loses a bunch of vessels could mean many different things for different people: "The Zerg's scourge micro is insane." "The Terran's multitasking/vessel micro sucks." "Buildorderwin." "Nothing Terran can do." etcetc Or my new personal favorite: "The terran plays actively instead of camping and waiting for the opponent to make mistakes which makes him better even though he loses and the standard Terran camper would've won." (sorry but looooooooooooooooooooooool) Ok my original point was to say that no one should believe they are right since none of you know the game enough to see every little thing a pro-gamer does. I am for discussing and I am for biased discussions because that is unavoidable. When the two parts start to discuss what biased view is the best and bring up stupid shit like amount of games watched, experience in analyzing games etc to support their own statements, THAT is when things get ridiculous. The bottom line is that Leta fans have the results to back them up while Sea fans have their own analysis. I don't judge in what you value the most, but that is the fact. My other post was not meant to attack you or others just to point out that there is no reason to act like elitist asses when the discussions only are about subjective things. Also, even though Steve may play better than me and knows more about the game, that doesn't change the fact that he has predicted Seas performance wrong since the beginning of time. You have to look at the big picture.
Okay bro this isn't complicated, but let me explain it again: I had no predispositions about Leta or his play, I had only heard things in this thread and saw 2 games that were not good indicators of his skill. So, I politely asked people to show me a strong VOD so I could formulate my own opinion. This whole thing isn't about me choosing sides, or someone being right or wrong, or Sea for that matter. I am not going to come in here saying that my opinion after having watched one or two games of him is the absolute definitive truth about Leta's current and future skills. However, I would probably come back and say what I think happened, and if people disagree then there would be discussion. What's so wrong about discussing differences of opinion about a certain game, as long as it is done respectfully? I don't see any reasons. Just because one group will obviously tend to lean to one explanation and another would lean to a different explanation doesn't mean both sides are stubborn assholes with a baseless assumption - there will be concrete discussion from both parties trying to justify their standpoint. As an objective SC fan, this to me would be very interesting about what seems to be a rising star on the scene. Is this too much to ask?
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taken from a recent interview with FlaSh.
- 우승에 가장 걸림돌이 될 것 같은 선수는
- Which player(s) do you think will be the hardest this OSL?
▲ (신)상문이형이 요새 잘하고 있어서 어렵고, (이)제동이 형이 올라온다면 제동이형이나 아니면 육룡이 어려운 상대가 될 것 같다.
▲ Leta is so good these days so he will be hard, if Jaedong gets to RO16 definately him, and anyone from the 6 dragons.
Enough said.
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On January 04 2009 01:39 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
taken from a recent interview with FlaSh.
- 우승에 가장 걸림돌이 될 것 같은 선수는
- Which player(s) do you think will be the hardest this OSL?
▲ (신)상문이형이 요새 잘하고 있어서 어렵고, (이)제동이 형이 올라온다면 제동이형이나 아니면 육룡이 어려운 상대가 될 것 같다.
▲ Leta is so good these days so he will be hard, if Jaedong gets to RO16 definately him, and anyone from the 6 dragons.
Enough said.
Bisu said that Sea is the best Terran right now (I believe).
Enough said.
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I think that the problem with Leta's play style is that in a Starleague, in a series, many people think it won't do him much good. He waits for people to make mistakes, and this often happens - especially in pro league. But in a starleague this probably wont work out so well. I bet BeSt was waiting for July to make a mistake too -_-
Fanatacist - I have watched several Leta games, and have only seen what I would call 'Solid' performances, not impressive or amazing games. The only amazingly awesome game I saw Leta play occurred a long time ago, when Stork was nigh undefeated against Terran - with a single loss, to Leta. That game was amazing. But it was also several seasons ago. I can look up the game for you if you would like.
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On January 04 2009 01:40 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 01:39 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
taken from a recent interview with FlaSh.
- 우승에 가장 걸림돌이 될 것 같은 선수는
- Which player(s) do you think will be the hardest this OSL?
▲ (신)상문이형이 요새 잘하고 있어서 어렵고, (이)제동이 형이 올라온다면 제동이형이나 아니면 육룡이 어려운 상대가 될 것 같다.
▲ Leta is so good these days so he will be hard, if Jaedong gets to RO16 definately him, and anyone from the 6 dragons.
Enough said. Bisu said that Sea is the best Terran right now (I believe). Enough said.
Thats an old interview man.
but
Yes we all know that when sea is on fire he plays amazingly good.
Although bisu and sea are good friends and former teammates..
can you link to the interview?
If leta plays really solid and almost never makes any mistakes and wins his games then he's obviously PR material.
If you play leta you have to play perfect and make no mistakes or you will lose, thats the reason why he should be on the PR
I don't understand what the discussion is about, you don't have to play fancy to enter the PR. Just play good and win your games.
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On January 04 2009 01:47 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 01:40 fanatacist wrote:On January 04 2009 01:39 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
taken from a recent interview with FlaSh.
- 우승에 가장 걸림돌이 될 것 같은 선수는
- Which player(s) do you think will be the hardest this OSL?
▲ (신)상문이형이 요새 잘하고 있어서 어렵고, (이)제동이 형이 올라온다면 제동이형이나 아니면 육룡이 어려운 상대가 될 것 같다.
▲ Leta is so good these days so he will be hard, if Jaedong gets to RO16 definately him, and anyone from the 6 dragons.
Enough said. Bisu said that Sea is the best Terran right now (I believe). Enough said. Thats an old interview man. but Yes we all know that when sea is on fire he plays amazingly good. Although bisu and sea are good friends and former teammates.. can you link to the interview? If leta plays really solid and almost never makes any mistakes and wins his games then he's obviously PR material. If you play leta you have to play perfect and make no mistakes or you will lose, thats the reason why he should be on the PR I don't understand what the discussion is about, you don't have to play fancy to enter the PR. Just play good and win your games.
I agree, his placement in the PR is completely justified and I am all for him being placed in #8-10. What I was trying to get at was why people thought he should be higher/would do good in individual leagues. His statistical performance is undeniable, it's true, but that does not make you a SL contender, and that is all I am saying.
As for the interview, I am pretty sure it is in the Taek-Bang era post.
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On January 04 2009 01:46 TarsTarkas wrote:
I think that the problem with Leta's play style is that in a Starleague, in a series, many people think it won't do him much good. He waits for people to make mistakes, and this often happens - especially in pro league. But in a starleague this probably wont work out so well. I bet BeSt was waiting for July to make a mistake too -_-
Fanatacist - I have watched several Leta games, and have only seen what I would call 'Solid' performances, not impressive or amazing games. The only amazingly awesome game I saw Leta play occurred a long time ago, when Stork was nigh undefeated against Terran - with a single loss, to Leta. That game was amazing. But it was also several seasons ago. I can look up the game for you if you would like.
If it was several seasons ago then it's not applicable now, but I will find it and check it out later out of interest [: Thanks.
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United States13143 Posts
On January 04 2009 01:46 TarsTarkas wrote:
I think that the problem with Leta's play style is that in a Starleague, in a series, many people think it won't do him much good. He waits for people to make mistakes, and this often happens - especially in pro league. But in a starleague this probably wont work out so well. I bet BeSt was waiting for July to make a mistake too -_-
I've seen a lot of people say this, but I'm not sure what it means. What makes Leta someone that waits for mistakes?
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On January 04 2009 02:32 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 01:46 TarsTarkas wrote:
I think that the problem with Leta's play style is that in a Starleague, in a series, many people think it won't do him much good. He waits for people to make mistakes, and this often happens - especially in pro league. But in a starleague this probably wont work out so well. I bet BeSt was waiting for July to make a mistake too -_- I've seen a lot of people say this, but I'm not sure what it means. What makes Leta someone that waits for mistakes?
it means, usually progamers makes a few mistakes. Leta usually doesn't so he usually wins.
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United States13143 Posts
On January 04 2009 03:22 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 02:32 Elyvilon wrote:On January 04 2009 01:46 TarsTarkas wrote:
I think that the problem with Leta's play style is that in a Starleague, in a series, many people think it won't do him much good. He waits for people to make mistakes, and this often happens - especially in pro league. But in a starleague this probably wont work out so well. I bet BeSt was waiting for July to make a mistake too -_- I've seen a lot of people say this, but I'm not sure what it means. What makes Leta someone that waits for mistakes? it means, usually progamers makes a few mistakes. Leta usually doesn't so he usually wins. I get that much, but how does that make him different from the other top players?
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On January 04 2009 03:23 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 03:22 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 04 2009 02:32 Elyvilon wrote:On January 04 2009 01:46 TarsTarkas wrote:
I think that the problem with Leta's play style is that in a Starleague, in a series, many people think it won't do him much good. He waits for people to make mistakes, and this often happens - especially in pro league. But in a starleague this probably wont work out so well. I bet BeSt was waiting for July to make a mistake too -_- I've seen a lot of people say this, but I'm not sure what it means. What makes Leta someone that waits for mistakes? it means, usually progamers makes a few mistakes. Leta usually doesn't so he usually wins. I get that much, but how does that make him different from the other top players?
well, according to some people the other top players can face a good opponent who doesn't make any mistakes and still win coz of insane macro micro etc..
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On January 04 2009 03:28 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2009 03:23 Elyvilon wrote:On January 04 2009 03:22 AnOth3rDAy wrote:On January 04 2009 02:32 Elyvilon wrote:On January 04 2009 01:46 TarsTarkas wrote:
I think that the problem with Leta's play style is that in a Starleague, in a series, many people think it won't do him much good. He waits for people to make mistakes, and this often happens - especially in pro league. But in a starleague this probably wont work out so well. I bet BeSt was waiting for July to make a mistake too -_- I've seen a lot of people say this, but I'm not sure what it means. What makes Leta someone that waits for mistakes? it means, usually progamers makes a few mistakes. Leta usually doesn't so he usually wins. I get that much, but how does that make him different from the other top players? well, according to some people the other top players can face a good opponent who doesn't make any mistakes and still win coz of insane macro micro etc..
one word: Creativity
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If someone asks himself right now if Leta should be on PR is unbelievable after all he played in recent 5 months...i think in last 5 months he has best score from all people, he's the most constant player from SC progaming from SKT vs OGN match last year
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EPT
