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On December 31 2008 16:56 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2008 16:49 Sentenal wrote:On December 31 2008 16:43 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 31 2008 15:14 Sentenal wrote:Lecaf vs STX spoilers + Show Spoiler +Kal>Jaedong lol
Maybe people were getting a bit too fired up about Jaedong's supposed return to dominance? But he played well vs Hwasin, so who knows. + Show Spoiler +
Aside from the Guardians and not scanning. The ace match would be top 3 TvZ this year no doubt, spectacular play by both sides and proving that Jaedong's starting a return to dominance.
+ Show Spoiler +Yeah... but it was Hwasin. He did play well, but its not like Hwasin is a top tier Terran. When Jaedong wins, he wins good, but he still lost to Kal, who is probably the weakest Dragon right now. I'd say there is evidence of Jaedong returning to be very good (win vsHwasin), but not returning to being an unbeatable monster (loss to Kal). + Show Spoiler [Lecaf vs STX] +no one is unbeatable these days. However (sorry I always disagree with you, lol) Hwasin played great! If ur sayin` that he didn`t play like a top tier terran...it`s just wrong, imo. The vessel control wasn`t the greatest of all, but still, credit to JD for sniping 543295823 vessels also I would like to see FakeSteve's opinion about these games  + Show Spoiler +Jd played a wonderful game against Hwasin, but still he lost to Kal and that counts 2
+ Show Spoiler +Well, I was just saying that Hwasin himself isn't a top tier Terran. Just a point about the overall quality of his opponent, rather than the quality of the game that was played (if that makes any sense). I won't deny that he played well, and I certainly won't deny that Jaedong played well. But because Hwasin isn't a top tier TvZ like FBH or someone, it just makes me wonder what would have happened with better vessel control, or scanning at a crucial moment, or just how the game all together would have gone. But all of that is just worthless "what ifs". That game is a definite plus to Jaedong, showing that he is returning to be a player to be feared. Its a shame he lost to Kal though.
And Jaedong better rape his Survivor group. The people against him in that group really have no business winning against JD.
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On December 31 2008 16:49 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2008 16:43 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 31 2008 15:14 Sentenal wrote:Lecaf vs STX spoilers + Show Spoiler +Kal>Jaedong lol
Maybe people were getting a bit too fired up about Jaedong's supposed return to dominance? But he played well vs Hwasin, so who knows. + Show Spoiler +
Aside from the Guardians and not scanning. The ace match would be top 3 TvZ this year no doubt, spectacular play by both sides and proving that Jaedong's starting a return to dominance.
+ Show Spoiler +Yeah... but it was Hwasin. He did play well, but its not like Hwasin is a top tier Terran. When Jaedong wins, he wins good, but he still lost to Kal, who is probably the weakest Dragon right now. I'd say there is evidence of Jaedong returning to be very good (win vsHwasin), but not returning to being an unbeatable monster (loss to Kal).
Kal weakest Dragon?
Kal has the best PvZ stats of all time, topping even Bisu, Kal and Bisu are tied for best PvZ out there, Kal always had sick PvZ and strong PvT, his PvP is a bit shaky but he is no way the weakest dragon in PvZ, his stats say otherwise 67.5% PvZ winrate is no joke, hell his worst loss streak was 3 losses when he lost to Jaedong in his prime in the finals of GOM and not even Bisu could touch Jaedong back then.
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On December 31 2008 17:59 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2008 16:49 Sentenal wrote:On December 31 2008 16:43 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 31 2008 15:14 Sentenal wrote:Lecaf vs STX spoilers + Show Spoiler +Kal>Jaedong lol
Maybe people were getting a bit too fired up about Jaedong's supposed return to dominance? But he played well vs Hwasin, so who knows. + Show Spoiler +
Aside from the Guardians and not scanning. The ace match would be top 3 TvZ this year no doubt, spectacular play by both sides and proving that Jaedong's starting a return to dominance.
+ Show Spoiler +Yeah... but it was Hwasin. He did play well, but its not like Hwasin is a top tier Terran. When Jaedong wins, he wins good, but he still lost to Kal, who is probably the weakest Dragon right now. I'd say there is evidence of Jaedong returning to be very good (win vsHwasin), but not returning to being an unbeatable monster (loss to Kal). Kal weakest Dragon? Kal has the best PvZ stats of all time, topping even Bisu, Kal and Bisu are tied for best PvZ out there, Kal always had sick PvZ and strong PvT, his PvP is a bit shaky but he is no way the weakest dragon in PvZ, his stats say otherwise 67.5% PvZ winrate is no joke, hell his worst loss streak was 3 losses when he lost to Jaedong in his prime in the finals of GOM and not even Bisu could touch Jaedong back then.
Dude, thats because Bisu was slumping then. Bisu could hardly touch anyone then.
PvZ isn't the only matchup a Protoss player has. Where is his PvT compared to the rest? It isn't better than Bisu's, Stork's, Jangbi's, or Best's. I really don't know where it is compared to Free's, but I wouldn't put it past Kal to have the comparatively weakest PvT of the bunch. His PvP? Incredibly inconsistent, and towards the bottem of the bunch. His PvZ is good, and around Bisu's level, but PvZ alone isn't enough to make him not the weakest Dragon, especially when all of the Dragons, except Stork and Best, have really good PvZ in their own right.
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On December 31 2008 18:38 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2008 17:59 samachking wrote:On December 31 2008 16:49 Sentenal wrote:On December 31 2008 16:43 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 31 2008 15:14 Sentenal wrote:Lecaf vs STX spoilers + Show Spoiler +Kal>Jaedong lol
Maybe people were getting a bit too fired up about Jaedong's supposed return to dominance? But he played well vs Hwasin, so who knows. + Show Spoiler +
Aside from the Guardians and not scanning. The ace match would be top 3 TvZ this year no doubt, spectacular play by both sides and proving that Jaedong's starting a return to dominance.
+ Show Spoiler +Yeah... but it was Hwasin. He did play well, but its not like Hwasin is a top tier Terran. When Jaedong wins, he wins good, but he still lost to Kal, who is probably the weakest Dragon right now. I'd say there is evidence of Jaedong returning to be very good (win vsHwasin), but not returning to being an unbeatable monster (loss to Kal). Kal weakest Dragon? Kal has the best PvZ stats of all time, topping even Bisu, Kal and Bisu are tied for best PvZ out there, Kal always had sick PvZ and strong PvT, his PvP is a bit shaky but he is no way the weakest dragon in PvZ, his stats say otherwise 67.5% PvZ winrate is no joke, hell his worst loss streak was 3 losses when he lost to Jaedong in his prime in the finals of GOM and not even Bisu could touch Jaedong back then. Dude, thats because Bisu was slumping then. Bisu could hardly touch anyone then. PvZ isn't the only matchup a Protoss player has. Where is his PvT compared to the rest? It isn't better than Bisu's, Stork's, Jangbi's, or Best's. I really don't know where it is compared to Free's, but I wouldn't put it past Kal to have the comparatively weakest PvT of the bunch. His PvP? Incredibly inconsistent, and towards the bottem of the bunch. His PvZ is good, and around Bisu's level, but PvZ alone isn't enough to make him not the weakest Dragon, especially when all of the Dragons, except Stork and Best, have really good PvZ in their own right.
Bisu's Record right before playing Jaedong and "Slumping"
Wait? 71% PvZ winrate is Slumping? Did you even watch the game? Jaedong just plain outclassed Bisu and evrey other toss at that time. And we are talking PvZ vs Jaedong so PvZ is the only match up in question now, whether he is shitty at other match ups doesn't matter since his PvZ is arguably best or 2nd best among the 6 dragons. Also Stork is doing great PvZ this year he really kicked it up a notch, 70% winrate in 2008 with 17-7 is not weak PvZ. Oh wait Bisu's record in 2008 is 60%, none of the dragons have weak PvZ and Best has average PvZ and once it gets to late game with his macro on no Zerg other than jaedong can touch him.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Kal's PvZ is fucking stellar. He is the only protoss who comes close to Bisu's mastery of the matchup.
That said, I have to watch the vods tomorrow before i comment on this
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On December 31 2008 17:56 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2008 16:56 Jaeden wrote:On December 31 2008 16:49 Sentenal wrote:On December 31 2008 16:43 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 31 2008 15:14 Sentenal wrote:Lecaf vs STX spoilers + Show Spoiler +Kal>Jaedong lol
Maybe people were getting a bit too fired up about Jaedong's supposed return to dominance? But he played well vs Hwasin, so who knows. + Show Spoiler +
Aside from the Guardians and not scanning. The ace match would be top 3 TvZ this year no doubt, spectacular play by both sides and proving that Jaedong's starting a return to dominance.
+ Show Spoiler +Yeah... but it was Hwasin. He did play well, but its not like Hwasin is a top tier Terran. When Jaedong wins, he wins good, but he still lost to Kal, who is probably the weakest Dragon right now. I'd say there is evidence of Jaedong returning to be very good (win vsHwasin), but not returning to being an unbeatable monster (loss to Kal). + Show Spoiler [Lecaf vs STX] +no one is unbeatable these days. However (sorry I always disagree with you, lol) Hwasin played great! If ur sayin` that he didn`t play like a top tier terran...it`s just wrong, imo. The vessel control wasn`t the greatest of all, but still, credit to JD for sniping 543295823 vessels also I would like to see FakeSteve's opinion about these games + Show Spoiler +Jd played a wonderful game against Hwasin, but still he lost to Kal and that counts 2 + Show Spoiler +Well, I was just saying that Hwasin himself isn't a top tier Terran. Just a point about the overall quality of his opponent, rather than the quality of the game that was played (if that makes any sense). I won't deny that he played well, and I certainly won't deny that Jaedong played well. But because Hwasin isn't a top tier TvZ like FBH or someone, it just makes me wonder what would have happened with better vessel control, or scanning at a crucial moment, or just how the game all together would have gone. But all of that is just worthless "what ifs". That game is a definite plus to Jaedong, showing that he is returning to be a player to be feared. Its a shame he lost to Kal though. And Jaedong better rape his Survivor group. The people against him in that group really have no business winning against JD.
samachking pretty much said it all. If u`ve watched the game on bluestorm, u just can`t say that Bisu was slumpin`...he played great, had an excellent harass, but it still wasn`t enough
also
+ Show Spoiler +I agree about the lost match against kal, I even wrote that in the second spoiler, however, Hwasin is a great TvZ'er , it`s just that he is slumping right now. BUT, he played a GREAT match, and if u agree with me, than u can`t know if "FBH or someone" could`ve played better
edit: On December 31 2008 18:49 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Kal's PvZ is fucking stellar. He is the only protoss who comes close to Bisu's mastery of the matchup. That said, I have to watch the vods tomorrow before i comment on this
I`ll wait for that, I`m really curious about ur thoughts, after all u make the PR
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+ Show Spoiler +Sentenal: "but he still lost to Kal, who is probably the weakest Dragon right now."
thats why his other matchups doesn't matter in this arguement.
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Hmmm, JD has still a lot to prove before I could admit his ZvP is top notch. I think the importance of his win against Bisu was overestimated. His playstyle is just good against Bisu's PvZ (harass heavy) and that's it. He has like 4:1 record against Bisu in 2008, he was always good against him. But them he get kicked out of OSL by han, out of MSL by free and finaly out of GOM by Tempest...yeah, and Stork kicked him out of WCG. I just couldn't help myself but see a patern here.
Also look at a couple of his last ZvP, only good opponent he beat was Bisu. His ZvP is a similar case like Flash's TvZ, maybe (probably) even worse. He can beat weaker opponents (and Bisu) but loses when in matters.
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On December 31 2008 22:04 adelarge wrote:
Hmmm, JD has still a lot to prove before I could admit his ZvP is top notch. I think the importance of his win against Bisu was overestimated. His playstyle is just good against Bisu's PvZ (harass heavy) and that's it. He has like 4:1 record against Bisu in 2008, he was always good against him. But them he get kicked out of OSL by han, out of MSL by free and finaly out of GOM by Tempest...yeah, and Stork kicked him out of WCG. I just couldn't help myself but see a patern here.
Also look at a couple of his last ZvP, only good opponent he beat was Bisu. His ZvP is a similar case like Flash's TvZ, maybe (probably) even worse. He can beat weaker opponents (and Bisu) but loses when in matters.
lol, this is pretty dumb, no offence
Jd`s ZvP has nothin` to prove, he proved it long ago. It`s just that his current shape may have somethin` to prove, but since u stated old games, this sounds pretty stupid.
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On December 31 2008 22:10 Jaeden wrote:
lol, this is pretty dumb, no offence
Jd`s ZvP has nothin` to prove, he proved it long ago. It`s just that his current shape may have somethin` to prove, but since u stated old games, this sounds pretty stupid.
No worries, I learnt not to be offended on net a long time ago  .
Of course I meant current JD has a lot to prove about his ZvP, my main point was how his fans overestimated his last game against Bisu. And I stated the most recent games, what the hell are you talking about? I would love to write about some recent BoX, but the truth is, JD has not played any, because he got kicked out of all tournaments pretty quickly (that's why I included his games against free or han, maybe I should have left them out). I especially write "look at a couple of his last ZvP" where the only good player with enough practice time was Bisu. So please, focus on that...
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I guess haters will remain haters. No matter what Jaedong achieves,people always say that his Z v T is bad,even tho it clearly wasn't,now his Z v P is bad. I can't help but laugh. Jaedong had a bad month against protoss. That's all. He lost to Tempest,Free and Kal,I don't car about the OSL,it was nearly a half years ago,and at that time he killed Free and Stork in the WCG and was raping protosses all over the place. He had a bad time because Protoss came up with new strategies which were supported by slight map imbalances,and he lost some matches. But he is evolving. No matter what he achieves,people will always say that,yeah,no matter he just beat the best player in the world in his strongest MU,beat Flash,beat Fantasy,beat Hwasin who is historically known for his awesome T v Z and gave JD a hard time not once throughout his entire career. He can beat anybody on the world,haters will always say,oh,not good enough,he'll have to show more. And who says Kal is not a good P v Z er is not only just a hater but blind and stupid too. No matter that Kal is the weakest dragon,his P v T skills have nothing to do in a match with JD. And before anybody accuses me of saying Jd should be no1, I say,that he shouldn't be higher than 4th 5th spot. I am done arguing,I can't make anybody to make up his mind if he hates JD,so I won't do it anymore. I just had to wrote this post. And beware e-sports! From tomorrow on,Savior will own everybody!
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On December 31 2008 22:22 adelarge wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2008 22:10 Jaeden wrote:
lol, this is pretty dumb, no offence
Jd`s ZvP has nothin` to prove, he proved it long ago. It`s just that his current shape may have somethin` to prove, but since u stated old games, this sounds pretty stupid. No worries, I learnt not to be offended on net a long time ago . Of course I meant current JD has a lot to prove about his ZvP, my main point was how his fans overestimated his last game against Bisu. And I stated the most recent games, what the hell are you talking about? I would love to write about some recent BoX, but the truth is, JD has not played any, because he got kicked out of all tournaments pretty quickly (that's why I included his games against free or han, maybe I should have left them out). I especially write "look at a couple of his last ZvP" where the only good player with enough practice time was Bisu. So please, focus on that...
yes, I was especially referring to those games ( han wth ?! ), and if u were talkin` about his all-time ZvP, it sounded even more crazy ( final 3-1 vs stork - didn`t win when it counts - lol )
ok, I guess I kinda agree with u , although jd was in a "minislump" and after that he showed good results 
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On December 31 2008 22:33 Jaeden wrote:yes, I was especially referring to those games ( han wth ?! ), and if u were talkin` about his all-time ZvP, it sounded even more crazy ( final 3-1 vs stork - didn`t win when it counts - lol ) ok, I guess I kinda agree with u , although jd was in a "minislump" and after that he showed good results
Yeah, it would be stupid to question his all-time ZvP (not only Stork, MSL final against Kal as well and others matches). Actually, the reason why I like JD is because of some of his ZvP games...but that's the point: because I remember how good he CAN BE I must object when a lot of people write about how good he IS right now.
It's the same with Flash - I love him, my second favorite player (after Mind), but I couldn't say his TvZ is top notch right now. It's more obvious with Flash because there are better TvZers (definitely FBH, maybe forGG as well). But the fact there isn't a better ZvPer than JD doesn't make him automatically great (great right now, not overall) at this match up.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On December 31 2008 22:31 Darth Peter wrote:
I guess haters will remain haters. No matter what Jaedong achieves,people always say that his Z v T is bad,even tho it clearly wasn't,now his Z v P is bad. I can't help but laugh. Jaedong had a bad month against protoss. That's all. He lost to Tempest,Free and Kal,I don't car about the OSL,it was nearly a half years ago,and at that time he killed Free and Stork in the WCG and was raping protosses all over the place. He had a bad time because Protoss came up with new strategies which were supported by slight map imbalances,and he lost some matches. But he is evolving. No matter what he achieves,people will always say that,yeah,no matter he just beat the best player in the world in his strongest MU,beat Flash,beat Fantasy,beat Hwasin who is historically known for his awesome T v Z and gave JD a hard time not once throughout his entire career. He can beat anybody on the world,haters will always say,oh,not good enough,he'll have to show more. And who says Kal is not a good P v Z er is not only just a hater but blind and stupid too. No matter that Kal is the weakest dragon,his P v T skills have nothing to do in a match with JD. And before anybody accuses me of saying Jd should be no1, I say,that he shouldn't be higher than 4th 5th spot. I am done arguing,I can't make anybody to make up his mind if he hates JD,so I won't do it anymore. I just had to wrote this post. And beware e-sports! From tomorrow on,Savior will own everybody!
LOOOOL
You don't know shit about haters.
Flash/Stork fans have to deal with stupid ass haters more than Bisu/JD fans.
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On January 01 2009 00:46 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2008 22:31 Darth Peter wrote:
I guess haters will remain haters. No matter what Jaedong achieves,people always say that his Z v T is bad,even tho it clearly wasn't,now his Z v P is bad. I can't help but laugh. Jaedong had a bad month against protoss. That's all. He lost to Tempest,Free and Kal,I don't car about the OSL,it was nearly a half years ago,and at that time he killed Free and Stork in the WCG and was raping protosses all over the place. He had a bad time because Protoss came up with new strategies which were supported by slight map imbalances,and he lost some matches. But he is evolving. No matter what he achieves,people will always say that,yeah,no matter he just beat the best player in the world in his strongest MU,beat Flash,beat Fantasy,beat Hwasin who is historically known for his awesome T v Z and gave JD a hard time not once throughout his entire career. He can beat anybody on the world,haters will always say,oh,not good enough,he'll have to show more. And who says Kal is not a good P v Z er is not only just a hater but blind and stupid too. No matter that Kal is the weakest dragon,his P v T skills have nothing to do in a match with JD. And before anybody accuses me of saying Jd should be no1, I say,that he shouldn't be higher than 4th 5th spot. I am done arguing,I can't make anybody to make up his mind if he hates JD,so I won't do it anymore. I just had to wrote this post. And beware e-sports! From tomorrow on,Savior will own everybody! LOOOOL You don't know shit about haters. Flash/Stork fans have to deal with stupid ass haters more than Bisu/JD fans.
stork yes, flash no-no, imho . Flash fans are more anoyin` than bisu ones, they are like the JD ones, or even worse
I`m not sayin` u are a hater or somethin` like that..but that`s the truth
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1353 Posts
Yeah but Flash often plays with the most boring playstyle known to man, he deserves haters.
The others really just have their ability questioned rather than their playstyle.
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Since when was Kal the weakest dragon in terms of PvZ? He's the strongest PvZer after Bisu. I hate how anti JD fans always try to degrade the level of the opponents he beats
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On December 31 2008 18:38 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2008 17:59 samachking wrote:On December 31 2008 16:49 Sentenal wrote:On December 31 2008 16:43 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 31 2008 15:14 Sentenal wrote:Lecaf vs STX spoilers + Show Spoiler +Kal>Jaedong lol
Maybe people were getting a bit too fired up about Jaedong's supposed return to dominance? But he played well vs Hwasin, so who knows. + Show Spoiler +
Aside from the Guardians and not scanning. The ace match would be top 3 TvZ this year no doubt, spectacular play by both sides and proving that Jaedong's starting a return to dominance.
+ Show Spoiler +Yeah... but it was Hwasin. He did play well, but its not like Hwasin is a top tier Terran. When Jaedong wins, he wins good, but he still lost to Kal, who is probably the weakest Dragon right now. I'd say there is evidence of Jaedong returning to be very good (win vsHwasin), but not returning to being an unbeatable monster (loss to Kal). Kal weakest Dragon? Kal has the best PvZ stats of all time, topping even Bisu, Kal and Bisu are tied for best PvZ out there, Kal always had sick PvZ and strong PvT, his PvP is a bit shaky but he is no way the weakest dragon in PvZ, his stats say otherwise 67.5% PvZ winrate is no joke, hell his worst loss streak was 3 losses when he lost to Jaedong in his prime in the finals of GOM and not even Bisu could touch Jaedong back then. Dude, thats because Bisu was slumping then. Bisu could hardly touch anyone then. PvZ isn't the only matchup a Protoss player has. Where is his PvT compared to the rest? It isn't better than Bisu's, Stork's, Jangbi's, or Best's. I really don't know where it is compared to Free's, but I wouldn't put it past Kal to have the comparatively weakest PvT of the bunch. His PvP? Incredibly inconsistent, and towards the bottem of the bunch. His PvZ is good, and around Bisu's level, but PvZ alone isn't enough to make him not the weakest Dragon, especially when all of the Dragons, except Stork and Best, have really good PvZ in their own right.
Excuse me, we're talking about Jaedong vs Kal matchup. Last time I checked, they were playing PvZ, not PvT or PvP. So your argument about how important PvT/PvP doesn't apply here
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On December 31 2008 22:31 Darth Peter wrote:
I guess haters will remain haters. No matter what Jaedong achieves,people always say that his Z v T is bad,even tho it clearly wasn't,now his Z v P is bad. I can't help but laugh. Jaedong had a bad month against protoss. That's all. He lost to Tempest,Free and Kal,I don't car about the OSL,it was nearly a half years ago,and at that time he killed Free and Stork in the WCG and was raping protosses all over the place. He had a bad time because Protoss came up with new strategies which were supported by slight map imbalances,and he lost some matches. But he is evolving. No matter what he achieves,people will always say that,yeah,no matter he just beat the best player in the world in his strongest MU,beat Flash,beat Fantasy,beat Hwasin who is historically known for his awesome T v Z and gave JD a hard time not once throughout his entire career. He can beat anybody on the world,haters will always say,oh,not good enough,he'll have to show more. And who says Kal is not a good P v Z er is not only just a hater but blind and stupid too. No matter that Kal is the weakest dragon,his P v T skills have nothing to do in a match with JD. And before anybody accuses me of saying Jd should be no1, I say,that he shouldn't be higher than 4th 5th spot. I am done arguing,I can't make anybody to make up his mind if he hates JD,so I won't do it anymore. I just had to wrote this post. And beware e-sports! From tomorrow on,Savior will own everybody!
Nobody's saying he's bad, but rather questioning
1. His current ability(as opposed to career achievement)
2. Whether he's dominant or just merely very good
What has Jaedong done that stood out in the "I'm one of the best players in the world" kind of way? Really the only thing is the inordinate amount of proleague games he played and playing fairly well.
And I can say as a Stork fan that if people questioning Jaedong can't even be categorized as "haters".
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EPT
