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On December 29 2008 15:35 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I don't know, losing in the OSL prelims to Horang2 might place him below Flash or Stork who are in both leagues.
To be fair, the only reason Stork is in both Leagues right now, is because he is seeded from the last time. But, of Leagues currently happening, Jangbi is still there, where Stork is not. Similarly, Flash is still in OSL due to being seeded from last time, and in Flash's MSL group, he managed to lose to Horang2 as well (surprise).
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On December 29 2008 15:48 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 15:35 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I don't know, losing in the OSL prelims to Horang2 might place him below Flash or Stork who are in both leagues. To be fair, the only reason Stork is in both Leagues right now, is because he is seeded from the last time. But, of Leagues currently happening, Jangbi is still there, where Stork is not. Similarly, Flash is still in OSL due to being seeded from last time, and in Flash's MSL group, he managed to lose to Horang2 as well (surprise).
Well, to use a precedent, that's what happened with Flash last season and he went down to only 3. I'm guessing Stork/Flash will be swapped.
On December 29 2008 15:45 baubo wrote:
I never got the impression that not making out of prelims for one starleague is that big of a deal. I mean, just two months ago top 4 had three players who only qualified for one starleague. No one ever bumped Jaedong down a notch because of his failed OSL qualifying.
The only impressive wins Jangbi's had lately are off Leta and Pusan.
But he does have consistency.
I mean it's so close, this could very well tip it out of Jangbi's favor.
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On December 29 2008 15:58 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 15:48 Sentenal wrote:On December 29 2008 15:35 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I don't know, losing in the OSL prelims to Horang2 might place him below Flash or Stork who are in both leagues. To be fair, the only reason Stork is in both Leagues right now, is because he is seeded from the last time. But, of Leagues currently happening, Jangbi is still there, where Stork is not. Similarly, Flash is still in OSL due to being seeded from last time, and in Flash's MSL group, he managed to lose to Horang2 as well (surprise). Well, to use a precedent, that's what happened with Flash last season and he went down to only 3. I'm guessing Stork/Flash will be swapped.
I'm just saying, you can't really knock Jangbi for missing the OSL due to losing to Horang2, and then not fault Flash for losing to Horang2 as well. The only difference here was the format, which wasn't as forgiving to Jangbi.
I do think Stork should fall to either 3 or 4, but as to where Jangbi or Flash go, I'm not sure. It will largely depend on their performance in the next round of GOM.
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On December 29 2008 16:05 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 15:58 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 29 2008 15:48 Sentenal wrote:On December 29 2008 15:35 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I don't know, losing in the OSL prelims to Horang2 might place him below Flash or Stork who are in both leagues. To be fair, the only reason Stork is in both Leagues right now, is because he is seeded from the last time. But, of Leagues currently happening, Jangbi is still there, where Stork is not. Similarly, Flash is still in OSL due to being seeded from last time, and in Flash's MSL group, he managed to lose to Horang2 as well (surprise). Well, to use a precedent, that's what happened with Flash last season and he went down to only 3. I'm guessing Stork/Flash will be swapped. I'm just saying, you can't really knock Jangbi for missing the OSL due to losing to Horang2, and then not fault Flash for losing to Horang2 as well. The only difference here was the format, which wasn't as forgiving to Jangbi. I do think Stork should fall to either 3 or 4, but as to where Jangbi or Flash go, I'm not sure. It will largely depend on their performance in the next round of GOM.
The thing is, Jangbi went 1-2 while Flash went 2-1 and beat GGPlay, which I see more as an accomplishment. I dunno, I think the next week or so will help sort out the ranking.
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I think it will probably end up as
Bisu
Flash
Jangbi
Stork/Jaedong [thats where I truly see the next week deciding, the other slots are much more certain.]
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I would only put Flash on 2nd if he manages to beat Bisu. If he loses,he'll only prove that he cannot stand up against the best in the business,and is only good for beating nonames. I do see however a legitimate case for Jangbi. He is really good. It will be hard to decide tho,there are still many games till the next rank. And Jaedong is still proving himself...
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Quite interesting for me, only Jaedong as a zerg this ranking. Yet I'm more happy for having a reason to shit rainbows and sing tra-la-la all day long.
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On December 29 2008 16:24 Darth Peter wrote:
I would only put Flash on 2nd if he manages to beat Bisu. If he loses,he'll only prove that he cannot stand up against the best in the business,and is only good for beating nonames. I do see however a legitimate case for Jangbi. He is really good. It will be hard to decide tho,there are still many games till the next rank. And Jaedong is still proving himself...
Well, the only notable wins Jangbi has gotten are, again, Pusan and Leta. He played Iris on some the most skewed maps ever, and Hwasin and Kal suck at vP.
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well, Kal is not so good any more. In the last month, he lost to FakeYellow, SkyHigh, Mind(bo3), stork and jangbi ( well, they are both better than him). His only notable performance is beating Free. Other than that wins over miracle,pure or thezerg, even gogo are ...
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On December 29 2008 16:12 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 16:05 Sentenal wrote:On December 29 2008 15:58 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 29 2008 15:48 Sentenal wrote:On December 29 2008 15:35 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I don't know, losing in the OSL prelims to Horang2 might place him below Flash or Stork who are in both leagues. To be fair, the only reason Stork is in both Leagues right now, is because he is seeded from the last time. But, of Leagues currently happening, Jangbi is still there, where Stork is not. Similarly, Flash is still in OSL due to being seeded from last time, and in Flash's MSL group, he managed to lose to Horang2 as well (surprise). Well, to use a precedent, that's what happened with Flash last season and he went down to only 3. I'm guessing Stork/Flash will be swapped. I'm just saying, you can't really knock Jangbi for missing the OSL due to losing to Horang2, and then not fault Flash for losing to Horang2 as well. The only difference here was the format, which wasn't as forgiving to Jangbi. I do think Stork should fall to either 3 or 4, but as to where Jangbi or Flash go, I'm not sure. It will largely depend on their performance in the next round of GOM. The thing is, Jangbi went 1-2 while Flash went 2-1 and beat GGPlay, which I see more as an accomplishment. I dunno, I think the next week or so will help sort out the ranking.
Flash went 0-1 vs Horang2. Jangbi went 1-2 vs the same guy. If we are counting total wins from the entire group they were in, Jangbi already had 2-0ed Devil, which had him going 3-2 total.
And like I said earlier, if you are going to fault Jangbi for losing to Horang2, fault Flash for it as well. Its only fair. Jangbi would have probably beaten someone like GGPlay as well. Its just the format he was in didn't allow for that. There was no pseudo-double elimination to save Jangbi like it did Flash.
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On December 29 2008 16:24 Darth Peter wrote:
I would only put Flash on 2nd if he manages to beat Bisu. If he loses,he'll only prove that he cannot stand up against the best in the business,and is only good for beating nonames. I do see however a legitimate case for Jangbi. He is really good. It will be hard to decide tho,there are still many games till the next rank. And Jaedong is still proving himself... Lol...you do realize things aren't that black and white, right? You aren't "incapable of defeating the best in the business" because of one best of three, or second best because of that b03. Flash has always, and still is, beating the best in the business. In series or out of it. Many people not even on the PR are capable of beating the best. Thats why 60% win ratios are considered to be good- cause the best often lose.
Hell, not even taking account of the maps that Flash will have to face- as in really really imbalanced against him.
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On December 29 2008 16:58 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 16:24 Darth Peter wrote:
I would only put Flash on 2nd if he manages to beat Bisu. If he loses,he'll only prove that he cannot stand up against the best in the business,and is only good for beating nonames. I do see however a legitimate case for Jangbi. He is really good. It will be hard to decide tho,there are still many games till the next rank. And Jaedong is still proving himself... Lol...you do realize things aren't that black and white, right? You aren't "incapable of defeating the best in the business" because of one best of three, or second best because of that b03. Flash has always, and still is, beating the best in the business. In series or out of it. Many people not even on the PR are capable of beating the best. Thats why 60% win ratios are considered to be good- cause the best often lose. Hell, not even taking account of the maps that Flash will have to face- as in really really imbalanced against him.
Flash WAS beating the best in the business. In series or out of it. The best non-terrans he met recently were Stork and JD. And the maps didnt helped them or were favoring Flash. And he lost to both of them. Now he has to play Bisu. That series will decide a lot. 3 maps. 1 imba for T, 2 other imba for toss. However Flash is already 1-0 against Bisu on Medusa due to an all-in cheese. If Flash gets his ass kicked he should be around 7th position and get the nickname Nightmare of the Noobs instead of Dragon Slayer. If he 2-0es he has a shot to take one of the top 3 spots, depending on other achievments. Now if there will be a close series that will complicate the things. Like Flash takes it 2-1. IF one of the wins (or both of them) gonna be Bisu's fault not Flash's feat, people would easily say that, Oh, Flash's playstyle counters Bisu's and he still barely won, and lost to Stork, JD he shouldnt get 2nd etc... IF Bisu 2-1s loosing on Chupung, it can be said, Flash had it what is needed to take down Bisu, only the maps blablabla he should keep 3th spot. I dont know it's gonna be intresting.
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On December 29 2008 17:21 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 16:58 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 29 2008 16:24 Darth Peter wrote:
I would only put Flash on 2nd if he manages to beat Bisu. If he loses,he'll only prove that he cannot stand up against the best in the business,and is only good for beating nonames. I do see however a legitimate case for Jangbi. He is really good. It will be hard to decide tho,there are still many games till the next rank. And Jaedong is still proving himself... Lol...you do realize things aren't that black and white, right? You aren't "incapable of defeating the best in the business" because of one best of three, or second best because of that b03. Flash has always, and still is, beating the best in the business. In series or out of it. Many people not even on the PR are capable of beating the best. Thats why 60% win ratios are considered to be good- cause the best often lose. Hell, not even taking account of the maps that Flash will have to face- as in really really imbalanced against him. Flash WAS beating the best in the business. In series or out of it. The best non-terrans he met recently were Stork and JD. And the maps didnt helped them or were favoring Flash. And he lost to both of them. Now he has to play Bisu. That series will decide a lot. 3 maps. 1 imba for T, 2 other imba for toss. However Flash is already 1-0 against Bisu on Medusa due to an all-in cheese. If Flash gets his ass kicked he should be around 7th position and get the nickname Nightmare of the Noobs instead of Dragon Slayer. If he 2-0es he has a shot to take one of the top 3 spots, depending on other achievments. Now if there will be a close series that will complicate the things. Like Flash takes it 2-1. IF one of the wins (or both of them) gonna be Bisu's fault not Flash's feat, people would easily say that, Oh, Flash's playstyle counters Bisu's and he still barely won, and lost to Stork, JD he shouldnt get 2nd etc... IF Bisu 2-1s loosing on Chupung, it can be said, Flash had it what is needed to take down Bisu, only the maps blablabla he should keep 3th spot. I dont know it's gonna be intresting.
WTF, how could Flash getting beaten by the current #1 on the PR make him fall? Flash is #3. The only two people Flash has lost to recently are Stork, and Jaedong. And one of those 2 is ranked higher than Flash currently is. There is no shame at all in losing to Bisu or Stork, so there should be no penalty in losing to either of them.
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On December 29 2008 16:24 Darth Peter wrote:
I would only put Flash on 2nd if he manages to beat Bisu. If he loses,he'll only prove that he cannot stand up against the best in the business,and is only good for beating nonames.
i hope you're sterile
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On December 29 2008 17:36 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 17:21 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 29 2008 16:58 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 29 2008 16:24 Darth Peter wrote:
I would only put Flash on 2nd if he manages to beat Bisu. If he loses,he'll only prove that he cannot stand up against the best in the business,and is only good for beating nonames. I do see however a legitimate case for Jangbi. He is really good. It will be hard to decide tho,there are still many games till the next rank. And Jaedong is still proving himself... Lol...you do realize things aren't that black and white, right? You aren't "incapable of defeating the best in the business" because of one best of three, or second best because of that b03. Flash has always, and still is, beating the best in the business. In series or out of it. Many people not even on the PR are capable of beating the best. Thats why 60% win ratios are considered to be good- cause the best often lose. Hell, not even taking account of the maps that Flash will have to face- as in really really imbalanced against him. Flash WAS beating the best in the business. In series or out of it. The best non-terrans he met recently were Stork and JD. And the maps didnt helped them or were favoring Flash. And he lost to both of them. Now he has to play Bisu. That series will decide a lot. 3 maps. 1 imba for T, 2 other imba for toss. However Flash is already 1-0 against Bisu on Medusa due to an all-in cheese. If Flash gets his ass kicked he should be around 7th position and get the nickname Nightmare of the Noobs instead of Dragon Slayer. If he 2-0es he has a shot to take one of the top 3 spots, depending on other achievments. Now if there will be a close series that will complicate the things. Like Flash takes it 2-1. IF one of the wins (or both of them) gonna be Bisu's fault not Flash's feat, people would easily say that, Oh, Flash's playstyle counters Bisu's and he still barely won, and lost to Stork, JD he shouldnt get 2nd etc... IF Bisu 2-1s loosing on Chupung, it can be said, Flash had it what is needed to take down Bisu, only the maps blablabla he should keep 3th spot. I dont know it's gonna be intresting. WTF, how could Flash getting beaten by the current #1 on the PR make him fall? Flash is #3. The only two people Flash has lost to recently are Stork, and Jaedong. And one of those 2 is ranked higher than Flash currently is. There is no shame at all in losing to Bisu or Stork, so there should be no penalty in losing to either of them.
Yes, loosing to top players isnt a shame or a reason to put you lower. BUT, if you loose to every single one of them that you met, and others as JD and the 4 tosses are doing great you arent allowed to keep your position, even if you didn t play bad. So if he gets his ass owned against someone who isnt strong against his playstyle +the current losses could push Flash back on 6th spot or so. But we'll se the Bisu vs Flash games will decide a lot
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It's not a shame,but to have a spot in the top 3,you gotta beat all comers. JD lsoing Sea,FBH twice and Kal wasn't a shame either,but he was dropped,because if you want a spot in top5,you have to beat all of them,or lose only one or two matches out of these. Yeah,Jangbi only beaten Pusan,Leta,and the others(and he cheesed Pusan),but tell me,who did Flash beat this month,who was good?
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On December 29 2008 16:58 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2008 16:24 Darth Peter wrote:
I would only put Flash on 2nd if he manages to beat Bisu. If he loses,he'll only prove that he cannot stand up against the best in the business,and is only good for beating nonames. I do see however a legitimate case for Jangbi. He is really good. It will be hard to decide tho,there are still many games till the next rank. And Jaedong is still proving himself... Lol...you do realize things aren't that black and white, right? You aren't "incapable of defeating the best in the business" because of one best of three, or second best because of that b03. Flash has always, and still is, beating the best in the business. In series or out of it. Many people not even on the PR are capable of beating the best. Thats why 60% win ratios are considered to be good- cause the best often lose. Hell, not even taking account of the maps that Flash will have to face- as in really really imbalanced against him.
You are not incapable because of losing ONE Bo x,but he lost to JD and Stork. I ask the question again,what good player did Flash beat? If he loses to the only good players he faces,how would you rank him above Jaedong,who beats everybody lately,including Bisu and Flash? How do you rank him above Best,who has an 8 game winning streak,has beastly P v P,beastly P v T and his P v Z improved a LOT? Hw do you place him above Jangbi,who,like Flash is still in the Gom,and he kicks asses there and very impressive in PL?
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
 Jaedong vs  Flash
10 - 6 (including season 1)
 Stork vs Flash
9 - 7
Bisu vs Flash
3 - 8
Flash always had bad records against JD and Stork. It was just that Flash took wins in critical games (except against jd).
And Darth, after reading your posts it seems as if you're just hating on flash and not giving any good arguments. Who did Bisu beat? After the finals he beat Yarnc, Calm, Reach, Hoejja, Pure, Stork and Young. Yarnc is from OGN, the team who always loses against protoss, Calm is the most overrated Zerg ever, Reach? LOL, Hoejja beat FBH but that was ZvT and Young who I've never even heard of. Stork lost to Pusan, Movie, Bisu and lost to BackHo Twice. Stork played 9 games and lost 4. I can tell you none of these top players have been performing amazingly except JD who is coming back from his mini slump.
And Geo, its fucking lose not loose.
Oh right, and did you know iloveoov also had even or worse records against top players (except yellow)? By your logic iloveoov was a shitty player who got lucky in lineups.
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On December 30 2008 00:16 MrHoon wrote:Jaedong vs Flash10 - 6 (including season 1) Stork vs Flash9 - 7 Bisu vs Flash3 - 8 Flash always had bad records against JD and Stork. It was just that Flash took wins in critical games (except against jd). And Darth, after reading your posts it seems as if you're just hating on flash and not giving any good arguments. Who did Bisu beat? After the finals he beat Yarnc, Calm, Reach, Hoejja, Pure, Stork and Young. Yarnc is from OGN, the team who always loses against protoss, Calm is the most overrated Zerg ever, Reach? LOL, Hoejja beat FBH but that was ZvT and Young who I've never even heard of. Stork lost to Pusan, Movie, Bisu and lost to BackHo Twice. Stork played 9 games and lost 4. I can tell you none of these top players have been performing amazingly except JD who is coming back from his mini slump. And Geo, its fucking lose not loose. Oh right, and did you know iloveoov also had even or worse records against top players (except yellow)? By your logic iloveoov was a shitty player who got lucky in lineups.
Okay,I cannot deny my hate for Flash. I can't stand that kid for some reason,but I think I gave arguments,not just expressed my hatred for him. I think I never said Flash is a shitty player,and definitely wasn't lucky in the lineups. His OSL win was one of the most deserving in the history of e-sports. He dominated in that season players like Jaedong,Bisu,Stork,the best in the business that time. He also won the Gom and took Jd to eliminate him from MSL. . I said he is not top 3 right now. When Flash was the best player on the world,he beat everybody,in every MU. Nowadays,it seems as if his T v Z is bad,losing to a lot of Zerg players even in this time of peril for Zergs. I don't care about the all-time stats of the players against each other. If Stork was 10-0 against Flash,Jd 5-0 and Bisu 7-1,but Flash beat them all in a month after an MSL or OSL win,I would say Flash is hotter at the moment. And that is what PR is about. Who has momentum and who is hotter atm. You ask about who did Bisu beat. Well,he is in all three leagues,one month after his MSL victory while Flash was horrible in the last MSL and OSL. Never really mond tho,but I would expect from Flash something what JD does right now. Despite my hate for flash,I found him one of the most dominating players on the field. I always admired how he can beat everybody in every league,no matter Map imbalance and other factors. That is what I don't sense in Flash right now. He is dominating against lesser opponents,and I get the feeling that he is just helpless against the better players. He doesn't really make mistakes,and his macro is always insane,but it appears that that he is just behind the other player for some reason,and can only win if the other fucks up something badly(like Free). I mean if his name wasn't Flash,he wouldn't even be in this position I think. Just look at Leta. He has the same stats in Proleague,is in both leagues yet,beating similar opponents. If it wasn't for Flash's history,I think nobody would even consider putting him in top2.
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On December 30 2008 00:16 MrHoon wrote:Jaedong vs Flash10 - 6 (including season 1) Stork vs Flash9 - 7 Bisu vs Flash3 - 8 Flash always had bad records against JD and Stork. It was just that Flash took wins in critical games (except against jd). And Darth, after reading your posts it seems as if you're just hating on flash and not giving any good arguments. Who did Bisu beat? After the finals he beat Yarnc, Calm, Reach, Hoejja, Pure, Stork and Young. Yarnc is from OGN, the team who always loses against protoss, Calm is the most overrated Zerg ever, Reach? LOL, Hoejja beat FBH but that was ZvT and Young who I've never even heard of. Stork lost to Pusan, Movie, Bisu and lost to BackHo Twice. Stork played 9 games and lost 4. I can tell you none of these top players have been performing amazingly except JD who is coming back from his mini slump. And Geo, its fucking lose not loose. Oh right, and did you know iloveoov also had even or worse records against top players (except yellow)? By your logic iloveoov was a shitty player who got lucky in lineups.
Flash was quite good against both Stork and JD. Than he lost 3-0 in GOM and twice in this PL to JD, so he had a better record some time ago.
3 of Stork's wins come from the early games they played, after Flash reached his form he is 7-6 against Stork. Not that bad. But Flash admitted that Stork's and Jangbi's current play couters his very well, but he's confident against Bisu, and Bisu admitted that Flash is very dangerous to him.
About loose and lose sry, my spelling always sucked,i'm sure you can find even in this post some errors +grammar mistakes.
I don't know about Oovs face-to-face stat against top players, there was a thread about it, or some stat somewhere. Do you have it? Cuz i doubt he is negativ against too many top players. Of course sometimes it happens that you're better than somone and you have negativ stat against him. Like : JD vs Casy 0-4 against Casy, 1-2 against FROZEAN.
But what is important Bisu played really well, i know you dont count IEF or whatever against Stork and Savior but you can watch the games, they took it for real. And the PL wins. His PvP is undeniable, his PvZ is still the best around, and his PvT looked strong, now it's gonna be tested for real. Bisu's stat is imressive, the names he defeated arent, the way he defeated is. I expect him to beat Flash, however Flash might be slightly favored. It's gonna be close im sure
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EPT
