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On December 26 2008 02:46 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2008 02:46 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 24 2008 17:35 baubo wrote:On December 24 2008 16:51 Geo.Rion wrote:
Jaedong is the most reliable player and the ace of the 1st placed PL team.
Jaedong beat Bisu's PvZ on Destination, considered to be p favoring against Z. Bisu played up to his potential. It wasnt his loss, it was JD's win.
Jaedong beat two of the best terrans. Flash and his mech build, no in fact he completly desrtoyed it, not just beat it. And Fantasy on a map (Sin CR) where Terrans didnt lose up to that, and yet again it was a complet ownage, the only thing which i missed was the queen infesting a CC, but that's ok.
Lets see some statistics: His ELO is the 4th ranked, 4th in the PL individual ranking.
And he did achieve this in a week. If he keeps this up, meaning he passes his MSL group which he certanly can, and ownes in PL, what will be your argument against him? He lsot to Free in October? Or he still has to pass his OSL group where he will face the mighty Tazza and Light? C'mon there are no arguments against JD atm, he was first on PR cuz he played like this, and now when he regained his power you argue about him being 5th or so? Damn people, watch games. Or watch statistics even, those too help JD right now. I don't see him 1st next month just yet, BUT there are more than 2 weeks till the new PR, so just wait it, so it might happen. Forget that 5th place kids.
The problem with Jaedong is that other than FBH, everyone else above him is still in GOM. The fact that he lost to FREAKING Tempest and doesn't even have Byzantium as an excuse is just unacceptable, and really gives him zero chance to make it to the top of the PR until he potentially destroys everyone in the next MSL/OSL. But not everyone is in the OSL/MSL. On December 25 2008 01:22 baubo wrote:On December 24 2008 21:18 Geo.Rion wrote:On December 24 2008 20:20 baubo wrote:On December 24 2008 18:10 raga4ka wrote:On December 24 2008 17:35 baubo wrote:On December 24 2008 16:51 Geo.Rion wrote:
Jaedong is the most reliable player and the ace of the 1st placed PL team.
Jaedong beat Bisu's PvZ on Destination, considered to be p favoring against Z. Bisu played up to his potential. It wasnt his loss, it was JD's win.
Jaedong beat two of the best terrans. Flash and his mech build, no in fact he completly desrtoyed it, not just beat it. And Fantasy on a map (Sin CR) where Terrans didnt lose up to that, and yet again it was a complet ownage, the only thing which i missed was the queen infesting a CC, but that's ok.
Lets see some statistics: His ELO is the 4th ranked, 4th in the PL individual ranking.
And he did achieve this in a week. If he keeps this up, meaning he passes his MSL group which he certanly can, and ownes in PL, what will be your argument against him? He lsot to Free in October? Or he still has to pass his OSL group where he will face the mighty Tazza and Light? C'mon there are no arguments against JD atm, he was first on PR cuz he played like this, and now when he regained his power you argue about him being 5th or so? Damn people, watch games. Or watch statistics even, those too help JD right now. I don't see him 1st next month just yet, BUT there are more than 2 weeks till the new PR, so just wait it, so it might happen. Forget that 5th place kids.
The problem with Jaedong is that other than FBH, everyone else above him is still in GOM. The fact that he lost to FREAKING Tempest and doesn't even have Byzantium as an excuse is just unacceptable, and really gives him zero chance to make it to the top of the PR until he potentially destroys everyone in the next MSL/OSL. Medusa is also bad for ZvP ... It depents how he performs in his games until the next PR comes out . Jaedong will definetly be above half and more of the tosses and maybe Flash if he continues to play like this . Alot will depent on him qualifing for MSL and OSL and i think that will bring him back in top 5 , because most of the players Free , FBH , JangBI , Best already failed in offlines for OSL or MSL , that will cause some consequence later on . Which is why I set Jaedong's potential rise timeline at the next MSL/OSL. But that's still a ways off. And he has to perform well at both too, which is no certainty. Right now, every toss can claim GOM Ro8(provide no huge upsets) while Jaedong got kicked out of Ro32. Medusa is bad ZvP, but it's not unplayable. And Jaedong lost in the 3rd game on the same map he beat Bisu on. Yes, you see, JD finally figured out Destination, and the other new maps, get used to mech builds and the other recent builds, he looks immune to any kind of racial-map-anything imbalance which is included right now in progaming. I'm absollutely sure he's the best player atm, i dont say he gonna be 1st next month cuz the Tosses showed more up to now, but JD is kickass once again, and nobody stands a chanse when he's at his peak. OK, Flash when he's on his peak, and Bisu. But he jsut beat both of them convincingly. That's looking a lot into just a couple of weeks worth of games. Any good player can look like world-beaters for a couple of weeks only to become pedestrian afterwards. Also, Jaedong has failed to defeat the very best TvZ players in the world, which are Sea, FBH, and ForGG. Although I guess the last one's kind of hard to say because they only met once due to being on the same team. But the point is, if Jaedong meets a zerg-killing terran in the starleagues, he's currently the underdog. Note that Flash doesn't count because he's been pedestrian against zergs for a while now. Flash fails to beat most competent ZvT'ers. He's still third. You don't have to beat the best at every MU to be third. On first point, Jaedong will play 2 sets of "play-in" games for MSL and OSL next month. That's all. Meanwhile, the 5 dragons(Kal excluded) will play in Ro8 and higher during the next couple of months. That's my whole argument, that the starleagues move so slow that by the time Jaedong has a chance to redeem himself from his horrible failures of the previous GOM/MSL/OSL, it will be a few months from now. And projecting a player's 2-3 month performance based on a few PL games is ludicrous. On the second point, right now TvZ skills is less important than ZvT skills, due to map balance factor and just general greater number of top terrans as opposed to top zergs. It's for the same reason that Stork and Best can continue to dominate even though their PvZ skills are not impressive at all for a top tier player.
Play, both Free and Jangbi failed to make the OSL with easy scrub groups. Secondly, if Jaedong makes MSL, then they will all be in one league, AND Jaedong had a better month. Lastly, Jaedong got eliminated from GOM by the 4Gate 2Archon rush which NO zerg has succesfully defended against from any protoss player who did the build correctly.
TvZ should be EASIER than ZvT because of the inherent imbalance in the MU and the maps. However, Flash's TvZ is a little lower than Jaedong's ZvT yet he is still 3rd. I'm saying your point on how Jaedong failing to beat the BEST TvZ'ers should not be a mark against him, as many people on the PR cannot beat the best in at least one MU.
Best/Stork: PvZ
FBH: TvP
Flash: TvZ
However, of course, Jaedong needs to pass his MSL Survivor test and perform well in next week's PL for any foundation to his placement next month.
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On December 26 2008 02:46 baubo wrote:
On the second point, right now TvZ skills is less important than ZvT skills, due to map balance factor and just general greater number of top terrans as opposed to top zergs. It's for the same reason that Stork and Best can continue to dominate even though their PvZ skills are not impressive at all for a top tier player.
I totally disagree with this. Although people are aware that current TvZ might not be fair for the Zerg whether its the map, the imba, or just the players, any matchup is recognized equally. Just because Bisu is better than Stork at PvZ (in which you claim that PvZ skill is not as important because of general consensus) does not mean he's the worse Protoss because Stork's PvT is better than Bisu's (in your logic, PvT skills would be more valuable) Its their slight difference in their PvP that allows us to make a distinction between them, seeing as how Bisu has beat Stork in recent PvP's.
I'm not trying to bring up a Stork/Bisu discussion, but just use them as examples to show how matchups are valued equally. If we go by your logic, then tell me why people were relectunt to give JD #1 PR back then until he had to prove his ZvT by thrashing Hwasin in previous MSL. Anti JD fans were saying his ZvT was shaky, and if ZvT is not weighed so heavily, then people shouldn't even say that right?
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On December 25 2008 20:43 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
"when he lost to bisu on andromeda"
was this after he won bisu 2-0 in the arena MSL, and right before he won Much, Free, BeSt and Stork in series from OSL and WCG? I don't see how this can strengthen your post.
Again, yes he has to prove that he's back in shape, not that he's capable of winning titles.
On December 26 2008 02:06 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2008 21:08 disciple wrote:
I brought up the game on andromeda because the situation now and then is quite similar. By that time bisu was in a slump and won the game, now was JD's time to play against the odds and win JD wasn`t HOT back then, like bisu is now
On December 26 2008 02:52 AzureEye wrote:
@disciple: you're avoiding his logic, which says he should retake his spot if he is back in shape. Now these recent games from JD DID show us that he is pretty beastly like his former self but few games is not enough for us to make a decision yet, hence why people say if he continues to show us former results.
Now now, its hard to make a decision about who would be better when deciding between the best ZvP player and best PvZ player. But past games and history shows that Jaedong is leading currently 4-2 Bisu, so Jaedong should come out on top, if not for just his record, then the psychological advantage he has over Bisu since he's beaten him more often.
Its just silly to bring back the "Bisu won on andromeda" when we can just simply bring up their total win/loss records to see who has the advantage
Weird. I thought disciple's post was pretty straightforward, but it seems nobody gets it.
He's basically saying this.
Bisu was in a slump.
Bisu then proceeded to beat Jaedong in epic fashion in a PL game where both players played well.
Bisu then continued his slump.
Right now,
Jaedong was in a slump.
Jaedong then proceeded to beat Bisu in epic fashion in a PL game where both players played well.
???
Basically, he's just saying to temper your enthusiasm because a couple of PL games doesn't mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things. And people needs to stop reading too much into it.
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On December 26 2008 03:03 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 02:46 baubo wrote:
On the second point, right now TvZ skills is less important than ZvT skills, due to map balance factor and just general greater number of top terrans as opposed to top zergs. It's for the same reason that Stork and Best can continue to dominate even though their PvZ skills are not impressive at all for a top tier player. I totally disagree with this. Although people are aware that current TvZ might not be fair for the Zerg whether its the map, the imba, or just the players, any matchup is recognized equally. Just because Bisu is better than Stork at PvZ (in which you claim that PvZ skill is not as important because of general consensus) does not mean he's the worse Protoss because Stork's PvT is better than Bisu's (in your logic, PvT skills would be more valuable) Its their slight difference in their PvP that allows us to make a distinction between them, seeing as how Bisu has beat Stork in recent PvP's. I'm not trying to bring up a Stork/Bisu discussion, but just use them as examples to show how matchups are valued equally. If we go by your logic, then tell me why people were relectunt to give JD #1 PR back then until he had to prove his ZvT by thrashing Hwasin in previous MSL. Anti JD fans were saying his ZvT was shaky, and if ZvT is not weighed so heavily, then people shouldn't even say that right?
he meant TvZ not ZvT...however it`s still illogical  we should forget about passed SL, or at least they shouldn`t count as much...They did 1-2 months ago, it`s enough
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On December 26 2008 03:03 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 02:46 baubo wrote:
On the second point, right now TvZ skills is less important than ZvT skills, due to map balance factor and just general greater number of top terrans as opposed to top zergs. It's for the same reason that Stork and Best can continue to dominate even though their PvZ skills are not impressive at all for a top tier player. I totally disagree with this. Although people are aware that current TvZ might not be fair for the Zerg whether its the map, the imba, or just the players, any matchup is recognized equally. Just because Bisu is better than Stork at PvZ (in which you claim that PvZ skill is not as important because of general consensus) does not mean he's the worse Protoss because Stork's PvT is better than Bisu's (in your logic, PvT skills would be more valuable) Its their slight difference in their PvP that allows us to make a distinction between them, seeing as how Bisu has beat Stork in recent PvP's. I'm not trying to bring up a Stork/Bisu discussion, but just use them as examples to show how matchups are valued equally. If we go by your logic, then tell me why people were relectunt to give JD #1 PR back then until he had to prove his ZvT by thrashing Hwasin in previous MSL. Anti JD fans were saying his ZvT was shaky, and if ZvT is not weighed so heavily, then people shouldn't even say that right?
Woah, geez, stop bringing in Bisu vs Stork here, which I was not trying to hint at. And I don't particularly care to discuss. But Stork and Best played a combined grand total of whopping 2 zergs in the MSL/OSL COMBINED. I think it's very safe to say that this is definitely a good time for your weakest MU to be vZ.
If you want another example, if FBH's TvZ and TvP skills are reversed, he would've danced his way to an MSL title by now. The truth is, at any given time, all matchups are not equal.
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On December 26 2008 03:04 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2008 20:43 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
"when he lost to bisu on andromeda"
was this after he won bisu 2-0 in the arena MSL, and right before he won Much, Free, BeSt and Stork in series from OSL and WCG? I don't see how this can strengthen your post.
Again, yes he has to prove that he's back in shape, not that he's capable of winning titles. Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 02:06 Jaeden wrote:On December 25 2008 21:08 disciple wrote:
I brought up the game on andromeda because the situation now and then is quite similar. By that time bisu was in a slump and won the game, now was JD's time to play against the odds and win JD wasn`t HOT back then, like bisu is now Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 02:52 AzureEye wrote:
@disciple: you're avoiding his logic, which says he should retake his spot if he is back in shape. Now these recent games from JD DID show us that he is pretty beastly like his former self but few games is not enough for us to make a decision yet, hence why people say if he continues to show us former results.
Now now, its hard to make a decision about who would be better when deciding between the best ZvP player and best PvZ player. But past games and history shows that Jaedong is leading currently 4-2 Bisu, so Jaedong should come out on top, if not for just his record, then the psychological advantage he has over Bisu since he's beaten him more often.
Its just silly to bring back the "Bisu won on andromeda" when we can just simply bring up their total win/loss records to see who has the advantage Weird. I thought disciple's post was pretty straightforward, but it seems nobody gets it. He's basically saying this. Bisu was in a slump. Bisu then proceeded to beat Jaedong in epic fashion in a PL game where both players played well. Bisu then continued his slump. Right now, Jaedong was in a slump. Jaedong then proceeded to beat Bisu in epic fashion in a PL game where both players played well. ??? Basically, he's just saying to temper your enthusiasm because a couple of PL games doesn't mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things. And people needs to stop reading too much into it.
Did Bisu just 2-0 two PL games for his team, possibly reform ZvT, and beat Flash right before he beat Jaedong? Also, Jaedong's "slump" was only 9-10, not exactly hopeless.
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On December 26 2008 03:07 Jaeden wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 03:03 AzureEye wrote:On December 26 2008 02:46 baubo wrote:
On the second point, right now TvZ skills is less important than ZvT skills, due to map balance factor and just general greater number of top terrans as opposed to top zergs. It's for the same reason that Stork and Best can continue to dominate even though their PvZ skills are not impressive at all for a top tier player. I totally disagree with this. Although people are aware that current TvZ might not be fair for the Zerg whether its the map, the imba, or just the players, any matchup is recognized equally. Just because Bisu is better than Stork at PvZ (in which you claim that PvZ skill is not as important because of general consensus) does not mean he's the worse Protoss because Stork's PvT is better than Bisu's (in your logic, PvT skills would be more valuable) Its their slight difference in their PvP that allows us to make a distinction between them, seeing as how Bisu has beat Stork in recent PvP's. I'm not trying to bring up a Stork/Bisu discussion, but just use them as examples to show how matchups are valued equally. If we go by your logic, then tell me why people were relectunt to give JD #1 PR back then until he had to prove his ZvT by thrashing Hwasin in previous MSL. Anti JD fans were saying his ZvT was shaky, and if ZvT is not weighed so heavily, then people shouldn't even say that right? he meant TvZ not ZvT...however it`s still illogical we should forget about passed SL, or at least they shouldn`t count as much...They did 1-2 months ago, it`s enough
Nope. The order is correct. TvZ is less important right now for a terran player than ZvT is for a zerg player. The hierarchy of races right now goes Protoss, Terran, and zerg. No matter your race, your vP skills are more important than vT skills which is more important than vZ skills.
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On December 26 2008 03:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 03:04 baubo wrote:On December 25 2008 20:43 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
"when he lost to bisu on andromeda"
was this after he won bisu 2-0 in the arena MSL, and right before he won Much, Free, BeSt and Stork in series from OSL and WCG? I don't see how this can strengthen your post.
Again, yes he has to prove that he's back in shape, not that he's capable of winning titles. On December 26 2008 02:06 Jaeden wrote:On December 25 2008 21:08 disciple wrote:
I brought up the game on andromeda because the situation now and then is quite similar. By that time bisu was in a slump and won the game, now was JD's time to play against the odds and win JD wasn`t HOT back then, like bisu is now On December 26 2008 02:52 AzureEye wrote:
@disciple: you're avoiding his logic, which says he should retake his spot if he is back in shape. Now these recent games from JD DID show us that he is pretty beastly like his former self but few games is not enough for us to make a decision yet, hence why people say if he continues to show us former results.
Now now, its hard to make a decision about who would be better when deciding between the best ZvP player and best PvZ player. But past games and history shows that Jaedong is leading currently 4-2 Bisu, so Jaedong should come out on top, if not for just his record, then the psychological advantage he has over Bisu since he's beaten him more often.
Its just silly to bring back the "Bisu won on andromeda" when we can just simply bring up their total win/loss records to see who has the advantage Weird. I thought disciple's post was pretty straightforward, but it seems nobody gets it. He's basically saying this. Bisu was in a slump. Bisu then proceeded to beat Jaedong in epic fashion in a PL game where both players played well. Bisu then continued his slump. Right now, Jaedong was in a slump. Jaedong then proceeded to beat Bisu in epic fashion in a PL game where both players played well. ??? Basically, he's just saying to temper your enthusiasm because a couple of PL games doesn't mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things. And people needs to stop reading too much into it. Did Bisu just 2-0 two PL games for his team, possibly reform ZvT, and beat Flash right before he beat Jaedong? Also, Jaedong's "slump" was only 9-10, not exactly hopeless.
Good lord, does the situation have to be EXACTLY the same for a person to make an analogy?
Now I know why OneOther ranked Jaedong so high in the last PR. Jaedong fanboys are incredulous. The double standard really is pretty weird. Is this some sort of Savior effect that just spreads to all zerg fans?
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On December 26 2008 03:19 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 03:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 26 2008 03:04 baubo wrote:On December 25 2008 20:43 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
"when he lost to bisu on andromeda"
was this after he won bisu 2-0 in the arena MSL, and right before he won Much, Free, BeSt and Stork in series from OSL and WCG? I don't see how this can strengthen your post.
Again, yes he has to prove that he's back in shape, not that he's capable of winning titles. On December 26 2008 02:06 Jaeden wrote:On December 25 2008 21:08 disciple wrote:
I brought up the game on andromeda because the situation now and then is quite similar. By that time bisu was in a slump and won the game, now was JD's time to play against the odds and win JD wasn`t HOT back then, like bisu is now On December 26 2008 02:52 AzureEye wrote:
@disciple: you're avoiding his logic, which says he should retake his spot if he is back in shape. Now these recent games from JD DID show us that he is pretty beastly like his former self but few games is not enough for us to make a decision yet, hence why people say if he continues to show us former results.
Now now, its hard to make a decision about who would be better when deciding between the best ZvP player and best PvZ player. But past games and history shows that Jaedong is leading currently 4-2 Bisu, so Jaedong should come out on top, if not for just his record, then the psychological advantage he has over Bisu since he's beaten him more often.
Its just silly to bring back the "Bisu won on andromeda" when we can just simply bring up their total win/loss records to see who has the advantage Weird. I thought disciple's post was pretty straightforward, but it seems nobody gets it. He's basically saying this. Bisu was in a slump. Bisu then proceeded to beat Jaedong in epic fashion in a PL game where both players played well. Bisu then continued his slump. Right now, Jaedong was in a slump. Jaedong then proceeded to beat Bisu in epic fashion in a PL game where both players played well. ??? Basically, he's just saying to temper your enthusiasm because a couple of PL games doesn't mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things. And people needs to stop reading too much into it. Did Bisu just 2-0 two PL games for his team, possibly reform ZvT, and beat Flash right before he beat Jaedong? Also, Jaedong's "slump" was only 9-10, not exactly hopeless. Good lord, does the situation have to be EXACTLY the same for a person to make an analogy? Now I know why OneOther ranked Jaedong so high in the last PR. Jaedong fanboys are incredulous. The double standard really is pretty weird. Is this some sort of Savior effect that just spreads to all zerg fans?
No, but this is a stark difference. Bisu went 7-12 before beating Jaedong. Jaedong went 9-10, THEN beat Flash and Fantasy, and then beat Bisu. That is not even close to being the same situation.
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On December 26 2008 03:14 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 03:07 Jaeden wrote:On December 26 2008 03:03 AzureEye wrote:On December 26 2008 02:46 baubo wrote:
On the second point, right now TvZ skills is less important than ZvT skills, due to map balance factor and just general greater number of top terrans as opposed to top zergs. It's for the same reason that Stork and Best can continue to dominate even though their PvZ skills are not impressive at all for a top tier player. I totally disagree with this. Although people are aware that current TvZ might not be fair for the Zerg whether its the map, the imba, or just the players, any matchup is recognized equally. Just because Bisu is better than Stork at PvZ (in which you claim that PvZ skill is not as important because of general consensus) does not mean he's the worse Protoss because Stork's PvT is better than Bisu's (in your logic, PvT skills would be more valuable) Its their slight difference in their PvP that allows us to make a distinction between them, seeing as how Bisu has beat Stork in recent PvP's. I'm not trying to bring up a Stork/Bisu discussion, but just use them as examples to show how matchups are valued equally. If we go by your logic, then tell me why people were relectunt to give JD #1 PR back then until he had to prove his ZvT by thrashing Hwasin in previous MSL. Anti JD fans were saying his ZvT was shaky, and if ZvT is not weighed so heavily, then people shouldn't even say that right? he meant TvZ not ZvT...however it`s still illogical we should forget about passed SL, or at least they shouldn`t count as much...They did 1-2 months ago, it`s enough Nope. The order is correct. TvZ is less important right now for a terran player than ZvT is for a zerg player. The hierarchy of races right now goes Protoss, Terran, and zerg. No matter your race, your vP skills are more important than vT skills which is more important than vZ skills.
that`s exactly what I was tryin` to say, hooooowever, players who did well in the last OSL/MSL but failed to continue the domination this month, should be lower.
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On December 26 2008 02:52 AzureEye wrote:
@disciple: you're avoiding his logic, which says he should retake his spot if he is back in shape. Now these recent games from JD DID show us that he is pretty beastly like his former self but few games is not enough for us to make a decision yet, hence why people say if he continues to show us former results.
Now now, its hard to make a decision about who would be better when deciding between the best ZvP player and best PvZ player. But past games and history shows that Jaedong is leading currently 4-2 Bisu, so Jaedong should come out on top, if not for just his record, then the psychological advantage he has over Bisu since he's beaten him more often.
Its just silly to bring back the "Bisu won on andromeda" when we can just simply bring up their total win/loss records to see who has the advantage most of those wins were when bisu was in shit form. In terms of good form, Jaedong is 2-1 against Bisu. Thats not significant. You have no way of knowing what mental factors would be in play. You have no idea how Bisu views Jaedong, or how Jaedong views Bisu.
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On December 26 2008 03:04 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2008 20:43 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
"when he lost to bisu on andromeda"
was this after he won bisu 2-0 in the arena MSL, and right before he won Much, Free, BeSt and Stork in series from OSL and WCG? I don't see how this can strengthen your post.
Again, yes he has to prove that he's back in shape, not that he's capable of winning titles. Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 02:06 Jaeden wrote:On December 25 2008 21:08 disciple wrote:
I brought up the game on andromeda because the situation now and then is quite similar. By that time bisu was in a slump and won the game, now was JD's time to play against the odds and win JD wasn`t HOT back then, like bisu is now Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 02:52 AzureEye wrote:
@disciple: you're avoiding his logic, which says he should retake his spot if he is back in shape. Now these recent games from JD DID show us that he is pretty beastly like his former self but few games is not enough for us to make a decision yet, hence why people say if he continues to show us former results.
Now now, its hard to make a decision about who would be better when deciding between the best ZvP player and best PvZ player. But past games and history shows that Jaedong is leading currently 4-2 Bisu, so Jaedong should come out on top, if not for just his record, then the psychological advantage he has over Bisu since he's beaten him more often.
Its just silly to bring back the "Bisu won on andromeda" when we can just simply bring up their total win/loss records to see who has the advantage Weird. I thought disciple's post was pretty straightforward, but it seems nobody gets it. He's basically saying this. Bisu was in a slump. Bisu then proceeded to beat Jaedong in epic fashion in a PL game where both players played well. Bisu then continued his slump. Right now, Jaedong was in a slump. Jaedong then proceeded to beat Bisu in epic fashion in a PL game where both players played well. ??? Basically, he's just saying to temper your enthusiasm because a couple of PL games doesn't mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things. And people needs to stop reading too much into it.
He said "where were the jaedong fans..." he should have said, where were the bisu fans, which I would imagine to have been all over the place.
I'm pretty sure they started hyping Bisu.
However its not just 1 game, now its 5 games in a row. + most of us sais lets wait and see, its not like we're shitting rainbows just yet.
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On December 26 2008 03:28 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 02:52 AzureEye wrote:
@disciple: you're avoiding his logic, which says he should retake his spot if he is back in shape. Now these recent games from JD DID show us that he is pretty beastly like his former self but few games is not enough for us to make a decision yet, hence why people say if he continues to show us former results.
Now now, its hard to make a decision about who would be better when deciding between the best ZvP player and best PvZ player. But past games and history shows that Jaedong is leading currently 4-2 Bisu, so Jaedong should come out on top, if not for just his record, then the psychological advantage he has over Bisu since he's beaten him more often.
Its just silly to bring back the "Bisu won on andromeda" when we can just simply bring up their total win/loss records to see who has the advantage You have no idea how Bisu views Jaedong, or how Jaedong views Bisu.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't think that whoever thinks jaedong is better than him is insane though.
Both players knows they are the best at the matchup.
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On December 26 2008 03:40 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 03:28 Dazed_Spy wrote:On December 26 2008 02:52 AzureEye wrote:
@disciple: you're avoiding his logic, which says he should retake his spot if he is back in shape. Now these recent games from JD DID show us that he is pretty beastly like his former self but few games is not enough for us to make a decision yet, hence why people say if he continues to show us former results.
Now now, its hard to make a decision about who would be better when deciding between the best ZvP player and best PvZ player. But past games and history shows that Jaedong is leading currently 4-2 Bisu, so Jaedong should come out on top, if not for just his record, then the psychological advantage he has over Bisu since he's beaten him more often.
Its just silly to bring back the "Bisu won on andromeda" when we can just simply bring up their total win/loss records to see who has the advantage You have no idea how Bisu views Jaedong, or how Jaedong views Bisu. I'm pretty sure he doesn't think that whoever thinks jaedong is better than him is insane though. Both players knows they are the best at the matchup.
JulyZerg could give Jaedong a run for his money in ZvP.
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On December 26 2008 03:04 baubo wrote:
Basically, he's just saying to temper your enthusiasm because a couple of PL games doesn't mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things. And people needs to stop reading too much into it.
THIS
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On December 26 2008 03:44 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 03:04 baubo wrote:
Basically, he's just saying to temper your enthusiasm because a couple of PL games doesn't mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things. And people needs to stop reading too much into it. THIS
Okay, It doesn't matter how enthusiastic we are, the Jaedong supporters are saying that we still need to see how it turns out. It's possible to be realistic and enthusiastic at the same time.
On December 26 2008 03:38 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
However its not just 1 game, now its 5 games in a row. + most of us sais lets wait and see, its not like we're shitting rainbows just yet.
On December 26 2008 03:38 Avidkeystamper wrote:
However, of course, Jaedong needs to pass his MSL Survivor test and perform well in next week's PL for any foundation to his placement next month.
On December 25 2008 17:21 Darth Peter wrote:
Jaedong plays Anytime and Kal this week. If he manages to beat both,and win an ace match in one of the matches,I think nobody can deny his strength. So I can't wait for it.
Don't assume we're raving.
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On December 26 2008 03:48 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 03:44 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On December 26 2008 03:04 baubo wrote:
Basically, he's just saying to temper your enthusiasm because a couple of PL games doesn't mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things. And people needs to stop reading too much into it. THIS Okay, It doesn't matter how enthusiastic we are, the Jaedong supporters are saying that we still need to see how it turns out. It's possible to be realistic and enthusiastic at the same time. Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 03:38 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
However its not just 1 game, now its 5 games in a row. + most of us sais lets wait and see, its not like we're shitting rainbows just yet.
Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 03:38 Avidkeystamper wrote:
However, of course, Jaedong needs to pass his MSL Survivor test and perform well in next week's PL for any foundation to his placement next month.
Show nested quote +On December 25 2008 17:21 Darth Peter wrote:
Jaedong plays Anytime and Kal this week. If he manages to beat both,and win an ace match in one of the matches,I think nobody can deny his strength. So I can't wait for it. Don't assume we're raving.
some of you are, i can also pick posts you know
On December 24 2008 21:18 Geo.Rion wrote:
Yes, you see, JD finally figured out Destination, and the other new maps, get used to mech builds and the other recent builds, he looks immune to any kind of racial-map-anything imbalance which is included right now in progaming. I'm absollutely sure he's the best player atm, i dont say he gonna be 1st next month cuz the Tosses showed more up to now, but JD is kickass once again, and nobody stands a chanse when he's at his peak. OK, Flash when he's on his peak, and Bisu. But he jsut beat both of them convincingly.
On December 24 2008 21:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
he's playing like the best player on the Earth so he has to be top 3 at least, or higher if the others are subpreforming. GOM wont end this month so nothing like "the champion must be 1st" will be a problem. And dont forget that 2 teams are excluded from GOM so the importance of that League is lower than OSL and MSL.
On December 25 2008 10:18 Shikyo wrote:
The thing is, Jaedong completely destroyed Bisu. Bisu, in a ZvP, on an imbalanced map, against the best PvZer in the world, and JD looked really unstoppable. And his 20-second FP-view clip vs Fantasy almost made me shit myself. JaeDong's ZvZ is beastly, his ZvP is godly, and if you say his ZvT is weak, you obviously forgot to watch his game against Fantasy.
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On December 26 2008 03:28 Dazed_Spy wrote:
most of those wins were when bisu was in shit form. In terms of good form, Jaedong is 2-1 against Bisu. Thats not significant. You have no way of knowing what mental factors would be in play. You have no idea how Bisu views Jaedong, or how Jaedong views Bisu.
So as long as a player is in shit form, their losses don't matter? Last time I checked, Flash dropped down from his #1 PR after a streak of dominance because his losses were from his shit form. This is so contradicting that its not even funny: losing leads to shit form, they're definately correlated.
I might not know how Bisu views JD or JD views Bisu but I DO know that its common sense for people to feel psychologically disadvantageous when they lost more against his opponent than he had won
On December 26 2008 03:14 baubo wrote:
Nope. The order is correct. TvZ is less important right now for a terran player than ZvT is for a zerg player. The hierarchy of races right now goes Protoss, Terran, and zerg. No matter your race, your vP skills are more important than vT skills which is more important than vZ skills.
You're basing this on the fact that there are fewer number of the races and therefore, the skill to verse them is not as important. Your logic is flawed because it doesn't show HOW a matchup is less valuable, it just shows that the particular matchup is less played and less common. Don't assume that just because that matchup is less common equals its less important. For all you know, Zergs can be the most populated race next month if leagues decided to use a heavily heavily Zerg favoring maps for tournaments. I am just talking about a possibility. It would matter if we were talking about the player's importance for his team, but we're talking about a player's basic performance and strengths/weaknesses. For ex, FBH is famous for his TvZ. According to your logic, his TvZ should not be so valuable when there are a minimal number of zergs out there. Can you explain how he got into this month's PR by disregarding his TvZ since "vZ skills is not that important because your vP skills are far more important"? I'm sure his drop out of MSL and Gom doesn't support you
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On December 26 2008 04:25 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2008 03:48 Avidkeystamper wrote:On December 26 2008 03:44 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On December 26 2008 03:04 baubo wrote:
Basically, he's just saying to temper your enthusiasm because a couple of PL games doesn't mean jack shit in the grand scheme of things. And people needs to stop reading too much into it. THIS Okay, It doesn't matter how enthusiastic we are, the Jaedong supporters are saying that we still need to see how it turns out. It's possible to be realistic and enthusiastic at the same time. On December 26 2008 03:38 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
However its not just 1 game, now its 5 games in a row. + most of us sais lets wait and see, its not like we're shitting rainbows just yet.
On December 26 2008 03:38 Avidkeystamper wrote:
However, of course, Jaedong needs to pass his MSL Survivor test and perform well in next week's PL for any foundation to his placement next month.
On December 25 2008 17:21 Darth Peter wrote:
Jaedong plays Anytime and Kal this week. If he manages to beat both,and win an ace match in one of the matches,I think nobody can deny his strength. So I can't wait for it. Don't assume we're raving. some of you are, i can also pick posts you know Show nested quote +On December 24 2008 21:18 Geo.Rion wrote:
Yes, you see, JD finally figured out Destination, and the other new maps, get used to mech builds and the other recent builds, he looks immune to any kind of racial-map-anything imbalance which is included right now in progaming. I'm absollutely sure he's the best player atm, i dont say he gonna be 1st next month cuz the Tosses showed more up to now, but JD is kickass once again, and nobody stands a chanse when he's at his peak. OK, Flash when he's on his peak, and Bisu. But he jsut beat both of them convincingly. Show nested quote +On December 24 2008 21:26 Geo.Rion wrote:
he's playing like the best player on the Earth so he has to be top 3 at least, or higher if the others are subpreforming. GOM wont end this month so nothing like "the champion must be 1st" will be a problem. And dont forget that 2 teams are excluded from GOM so the importance of that League is lower than OSL and MSL.
Show nested quote +On December 25 2008 10:18 Shikyo wrote:
The thing is, Jaedong completely destroyed Bisu. Bisu, in a ZvP, on an imbalanced map, against the best PvZer in the world, and JD looked really unstoppable. And his 20-second FP-view clip vs Fantasy almost made me shit myself. JaeDong's ZvZ is beastly, his ZvP is godly, and if you say his ZvT is weak, you obviously forgot to watch his game against Fantasy.
That's true, but I only one of the post saying an actual rank, and that's Geo.Rion's. The others are just saying how he is performing great again, and if you saw his games, all five of them, the only time where he looked to be in trouble was vs Fantasy-right before he ensnared him.
Also, in one of the posts you quoted:
"I'm absollutely sure he's the best player atm, i dont say he gonna be 1st next month cuz the Tosses showed more up to now, but JD is kickass once again, "
He's saying that even though he believes JD to be the best ATM, it won't be indicated in the rank and he knows that. But you cannot deny that JD is playing well.
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EPT
