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Valhalla18444 Posts
On December 18 2008 21:03 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2008 17:54 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
i seem to have this discussion every time sea is on the power rank
nobody watches the games and compares them to other games, they just see Sea and wait for him to lose so they can come in here and talk shit. well, i shouldn't say 'nobody'. Sea's placement is as debatable as anyone else's on any power rank, i'm talking specifically about the crew of drooling shit-eaters that say stuff like 'sea sux wasted pr slot uhruahurhuhr my mom and my sister are the same person'
somehow the fact that every time Sea has crashed and burned in a starleague he has fallen off the power rank escapes you. you think everyone plays good all the time? then why the hell does the rest of the rank change as well? why the fuck shouldn't sea be on the rank when he plays well just because hurhruhrurr he might not play so good in 2 weeks
and for the record, Sea fucking SLAUGHTERED his MSL Survivor group. Yeah, but you didn't use MST as justification for his placement at all. If you go by PL record, he's really done nothing. Actually, the more interesting part is that Sea wasn't even in the lineup of many MBC matches, which is puzzling because he didn't have an insane amount of commitments like say, Stork or Bisu. So in the end it was just a 3-2 proleague record, 0-1 in ace match, and overall playing very few games. You can't expect people not to raise an eyebrow to that. There are definitely many players who have performance beyond that.
The Power Rank came out the day after Sea's MST group 
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I'm not going to take sides in this, but I will say that this has been the funniest "discussion" of pro gaming I've ever read
Which, I think, is proof that the Power Ranking is doing what it was made to do: ignite enough controversy to last until the next one comes out, to keep people discussing about the players and their relative powers during the period that follows its release.
I note, however, that some of the bickering stems from people not all having the same definition of how the predictor is supposed to work. That might be worth a mini-discussion. This is how I perceive it:
1. Each player's ranking in the Power Rank shows their current apparent relative strength, to help predict who's more likely to win when they face each other, or others who didn't get on the list at all (they are expected to beat those people who didn't make the top then... the ranked players are supposed to be in the top ten for a reason!)
2. The selections are made by combining track record of accomplishments with up-to-the-minute current play. This way, players who used to be good don't stay at #1 forever if they aren't still good now, even if they were very good for a long time. This justifies re-making the list every month.
I think a lot of the arguing comes from number 2, because people don't all agree on how important each component is (past vs present). Some people in this thread treat past accomplishments and failures as more important than recent good/bad play, and vice versa. There is no numerical way to measure or describe how important each part should be, which makes the Power Rank a totally subjective matter of opinion.
That said, my definition does allow Sea to be at #10 if he's playing well right now. On the other hand, if he's playing inconsistently well, then it doesn't. I don't follow Sea's career so I can't determine either way. What would matter is Sea's performance in the period covered by the Power Rank up until its release date. If it was all good, he deserved to be there, but if it was only partly good, then the person right below him should have been there.
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Sea played two 'good' games. And by Good, I mean a really long macro game against Jaedong, where he played sloppy, and a long tvt against the 'God' Iris. His other games were terrible.
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United States10328 Posts
where's the CBNC 
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On December 18 2008 22:44 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Sea played two 'good' games. And by Good, I mean a really long macro game against Jaedong, where he played sloppy, and a long tvt against the 'God' Iris. His other games were terrible.
i wish i could understand stupid people like you. You say Sea played sluppy in a game which was the best that he played this year. You're just... agh... no point in arguing with you
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On December 18 2008 22:27 Delerium wrote:
I'm not going to take sides in this, but I will say that this has been the funniest "discussion" of pro gaming I've ever read
Which, I think, is proof that the Power Ranking is doing what it was made to do: ignite enough controversy to last until the next one comes out, to keep people discussing about the players and their relative powers during the period that follows its release.
I note, however, that some of the bickering stems from people not all having the same definition of how the predictor is supposed to work. That might be worth a mini-discussion. This is how I perceive it:
1. Each player's ranking in the Power Rank shows their current apparent relative strength, to help predict who's more likely to win when they face each other, or others who didn't get on the list at all (they are expected to beat those people who didn't make the top then... the ranked players are supposed to be in the top ten for a reason!)
2. The selections are made by combining track record of accomplishments with up-to-the-minute current play. This way, players who used to be good don't stay at #1 forever if they aren't still good now, even if they were very good for a long time. This justifies re-making the list every month.
I think a lot of the arguing comes from number 2, because people don't all agree on how important each component is (past vs present). Some people in this thread treat past accomplishments and failures as more important than recent good/bad play, and vice versa. There is no numerical way to measure or describe how important each part should be, which makes the Power Rank a totally subjective matter of opinion.
That said, my definition does allow Sea to be at #10 if he's playing well right now. On the other hand, if he's playing inconsistently well, then it doesn't. I don't follow Sea's career so I can't determine either way. What would matter is Sea's performance in the period covered by the Power Rank up until its release date. If it was all good, he deserved to be there, but if it was only partly good, then the person right below him should have been there.
Well, the problem with Sea is that he's top 10(possibly higher than #10) if you go by PL games. He doesn't even belong in the CNBC if you go by starleague history.
The problem, as many people point out, is that there are A LOT OF players who own the proleagues, not just Sea. So why Sea out of the bunch? And for reference #1-9 are fairly indisputable, as in they've have recent success in both starleague and proleague.
I personally don't think Sea's worthy, because his proleague play this season has been sub-par with the exception of a few games. He's not the MBC 'ace' that he was previously. And his starleague performance is still Sea-esque, which is quite mediocre.
The only reason I don't particularly care to criticize the choice is simply because I don't think there's a clear cut player who was "robbed" of a placement. Although I personally would've put Fantasy on the PR, I can understand Fakesteve point about him being too green. And while Leta, Pusan, Yarnc, or some other player could be considered top 10, they're not definitive top 10 material.
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I think next time the PR writer should wait for a bit more information than 2-3 games to put sea on the rank. Even if he plays a few good games, when knowing how inconsistent he is, it might not be enough to put him on the ranks.
Put him in CBNC and say "hey sea has played some great games lately, if he can keep this up he would really deserve a spot on the top 10 for next month".
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You both make a good point, which is that even if Sea made a good showing, he didn't play very many games. That would be a reason to put someone else who's playing really well (in many more games) in that spot instead of Sea. If I were making the list (and I emphasize that I am not), I would favor the people who have very rigorous pro-gaming schedules.
You're also right that 1-9 is "fairly" indisputable, but not totally indisputable : ) many people think FBH is too high, for example - some people even think Jaedong didn't make top 10 this month. If the list were totally indisputable, it would be really boring! Well, I guess it would be cool to come up with a really accurate predictor, but there wouldn't be very much discussion afterward.
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It really is amusing and kinda baffling how a player with strong stats can do so poorly in the starleague huh?
Power rank is just a summary of last month w/ a few preferences thrown in. Anyone who follow the results can pretty much come with power rank. All this "player x doesn't belong cus he just lost" is missing the point - it'll be in the next pr.
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 Sea played good my ass.
we can do this mathematically:
Sea beat a slumping Jeadong and Sea beat an Iris which doesnt exists on PR.
 Tempest beat Best (on PR), a slumping  Jaedong, just like Sea, and GGPlay which took Flash out Last OSL.
If you are not happy with this take the results and you will see Pusan beat alot of better players, like Stork, god dammit, he was nO.1 on PR that time when Sea lost to Anytime which candt do better being in army. Pusan is 10-2 from October excluding prelims in OSL and MSL while Sea is 10-9. This is pathetic!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On December 19 2008 07:49 Phradamon wrote:Sea played good my ass. we can do this mathematically: Sea beat a slumping Jeadong and Sea beat an Iris which doesnt exists on PR. Tempest beat Best (on PR), a slumping Jaedong, just like Sea, and GGPlay which took Flash out Last OSL. If you are not happy with this take the results and you will see Pusan beat alot of better players, like Stork, god dammit, he was nO.1 on PR that time when Sea lost to Anytime which candt do better being in army. Pusan is 10-2 from October excluding prelims in OSL and MSL while Sea is 10-9. This is pathetic!
You need to watch the games
You can't just say Hurhuhrauhruahr he played dis opponent an' dis opponent derefore wif MATH blah blah duhhhhh
Also, watch your tone. There's absolutely no need to call something I work so hard on 'pathetic'. If you don't like the rank, shut the fuck up and never post here again. This isn't the first time you've been aggressive and insulting right off the bat in a Power Rank thread, next time it'll be a ban. I'm all for discussion, but I'm not gonna tolerate some little pissant calling me or one of this site's features 'pathetic'.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On December 19 2008 00:23 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
I think next time the PR writer should wait for a bit more information than 2-3 games to put sea on the rank. Even if he plays a few good games, when knowing how inconsistent he is, it might not be enough to put him on the ranks.
Put him in CBNC and say "hey sea has played some great games lately, if he can keep this up he would really deserve a spot on the top 10 for next month".
Two absolutely sick ProLeague games and a sweep of his Survivor group with a similarily high level of play was justification enough in my eyes, especially considering the other candidates for the spot and what they've done. Again, this is only the 10th spot.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On December 18 2008 22:44 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Sea played two 'good' games. And by Good, I mean a really long macro game against Jaedong, where he played sloppy, and a long tvt against the 'God' Iris. His other games were terrible.
Sea's game against Jaedong was far from sloppy, and this right here is a pretty good example of why I write this thing and you don't
all hail the glorious monarch of the power rank fakesteve oh man hes so cool do u think hes goodlooking
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Phradamon:
"This guy beat that guy who beat that other guy that one time" is a bad argument in a competitive scene full of bi-weekly Bo1 games. Frozean manages to steal Bo1 games off slumping big name players all the time, but nobody ever goes "so and so beat Frozean, who beat Jaedong, so that makes them DA BEST."
Also results from October don't factor into a ranking that is based on games from November through mid-December.
Results are important, but they aren't everything. This is why just reading some live reports or reading the results spoilers or checking a TLPD page isn't all you need to make a good PR. HOW you win and lose, not just WHO you win and lose against, is an important factor to keep in mind. This is why Sea typically appears on the PR during qualifiers and disappears during Ro16.
People whining about "bias" need to realize that there is no completely objective way to do this list that is particularly good way of going about it. If you think past accomplishments and win-loss totals are more important than strength of play in a certain time frame, then refer to the KeSPA rankings and you'll realized that system is flawed as well.
In any case, I mostly agree with FakeSteve's list; though I do think Pusan has put together a strong performance in the past few months, I don't think I've seen anything out of him that makes me think "this guy could be one of the top ten players in all of pro-SC this month!" That kind of consistency does warrant a mention, of course. Definitely CNBC material at the very least. I haven't seen enough of Sea's play to really say he belongs over Pusan, but that's mostly because I haven't watched many (any?) of Sea's games this past month. I can definitely believe that Sea is capable of playing well enough to warrant the top 10 spot, though.
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On December 19 2008 09:01 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2008 00:23 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
I think next time the PR writer should wait for a bit more information than 2-3 games to put sea on the rank. Even if he plays a few good games, when knowing how inconsistent he is, it might not be enough to put him on the ranks.
Put him in CBNC and say "hey sea has played some great games lately, if he can keep this up he would really deserve a spot on the top 10 for next month". Two absolutely sick ProLeague games and a sweep of his Survivor group with a similarily high level of play was justification enough in my eyes, especially considering the other candidates for the spot and what they've done. Again, this is only the 10th spot.
I've always concidered Sea a very strong player however he's not consistant enough to make the PR imo. The game vs jaedong was very good, however it was not the old jaedong, he was abit sloppy with his multitask and didnt stab expansions with swarms the way he used to etc. Sometimes a player might look better than he actually is if the game is close.
The lack of other participants might be a reason though.
Anyway i think, given that he's been inconsistent in the past, the correct thing would have been to wait and see how things go and put him on nr 10 or even higher next month if he continues to play well.
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I think mind was a better pick for number 10 than sea. Yes he lost some sloppy games but he also played alot of good proleauge matches against strong oponents on all kind of maps and match ups.
atleast CBNC imo
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Mind has shown revival lately and has been playing his ass off racking up wins in leagues, qualifiers, and proleague. He is 11-5 in november a very strong record deserving of a power rank slot. Just check the tlpd his ELO is getting close to his peak again and he has serious momentum behind him.
EDIT: I just checked Sea's record hes done barely anything in november nowhere near Mind's accomplishments or level of play. I usually agree with you Fakesteve, but I think youve overlooked Mind on this occasion and perhaps let your fandom take over a little, no offense.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On December 19 2008 11:11 Kuja900 wrote:
Mind has shown revival lately and has been playing his ass off racking up wins in leagues, qualifiers, and proleague. He is 11-5 in november a very strong record deserving of a power rank slot. Just check the tlpd his ELO is getting close to his peak again and he has serious momentum behind him.
EDIT: I just checked Sea's record hes done barely anything in november nowhere near Mind's accomplishments or level of play. I usually agree with you Fakesteve, but I think youve overlooked Mind on this occasion and perhaps let your fandom take over a little, no offense.
Hmmm, apparently I missed like four of Mind's games. I watched all five of his losses live and six of his wins, he still looked shaky. I'm a little busy right now, were there good examples of strong gameplay I just didn't see? If so, you may have a strong case here for error in the Rank 
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On December 19 2008 11:18 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2008 11:11 Kuja900 wrote:
Mind has shown revival lately and has been playing his ass off racking up wins in leagues, qualifiers, and proleague. He is 11-5 in november a very strong record deserving of a power rank slot. Just check the tlpd his ELO is getting close to his peak again and he has serious momentum behind him.
EDIT: I just checked Sea's record hes done barely anything in november nowhere near Mind's accomplishments or level of play. I usually agree with you Fakesteve, but I think youve overlooked Mind on this occasion and perhaps let your fandom take over a little, no offense. Hmmm, apparently I missed like four of Mind's games. I watched all five of his losses live and six of his wins, he still looked shaky. I'm a little busy right now, were there good examples of strong gameplay I just didn't see? If so, you may have a strong case here for error in the Rank
Yes quite a few examples actually especially his game against Stats (ktf newcomer). Its definetly worth a watch Mind made a maneuver that in my opinion and a lot of other peoples opinion is a surefire pimpest play and overall the game was great. He also has some starpower wins over players like free, hwasin and tvt beast fantasy. He is currently on a 4 game streak after an oddball loss to sangho which id hawk up to a fluke.
Description of the pimpest play:
+ Show Spoiler +Stats did a recall into mines main on top of his factories, losing a lot of goons to mines as well. He then proceeds to do damage and stasis units on minds ramp so he cant reinforce with the pack of vultures he had behind the tanks. He than sends his scvs from his natural expansion to mine minerals in the main base and then stopped them on the ramp in between the stasised tanks. This actually moved the stasised units out of the way for vultures to get up the ramp, a real HOLYSHITOMFG moment. While im sure this maneuver has been theory crafted before never has it been used so effectively to the point of even saving the game. The game overall is amazing and once again i strongly recommend giving it a view. I mean people are even going so far to say as the best tvp game of 2008.
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Would looking at all the games each player has played since the last power rank work o_O
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EPT
