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On December 04 2008 04:49 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2008 04:45 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:
Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet
I think Flash's TvP is superior to anyone's PvT (especially in a 5 game series)... His proleague game against Free was just another recent example of his beastly dominance of that matchup.
His TvZ on the other hand... *sigh* WTF ?! mate the game against free is the worst possible example of flashs beastly dominance in this MU. Free lost the game all by himself, the tech switch to carriers was completely meaningless since he was doing great job with his arbiters
that`s why I hate flash's fanboys xD
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WTF ?! mate the game against free is the worst possible example of flashs beastly dominance in this MU. Free lost the game all by himself, the tech switch to carriers was completely meaningless since he was doing great job with his arbiters
I love people that like to play the "he did it to himself" arguments. That's the definition of a hater, not me being a "fanboy." You need some logic, and think to yourself, Why would an elite progamer, many are clamoring for a top 5 PR spot, decide to just switch to carriers for fun. Oh, I'm winning this game, and I think I should get my carriers out of the garage, dust them off, and give them a go. Use your head. The same thing happened back in the OSL when Bisu switched to carriers remember that? This game is not golf, it's a 1v1 competition with each player influencing the other in subtle and not so subtle ways throughout the course of a game and even before the game even starts.
Obviously Free felt like he was NOT winning with his arbiter tactics. Why is that? Cause Flash has some of the best recovery abilities among all progamers and it's known. He consistently loses expansions in some of his best matches, but somehow he doesn't seem to fall behind economically, and rebuilds those expansions while still pumping units. This kind of defensive ability puts pressure on other opponents. If you don't understand this dynamic, then you don't understand sport.
It's like people who wonder why do tennis players make lots more unforced errors against Rafael Nadal than they normally do. They just beat themselves. No, Rafael Nadal is great, because his defensive qualities are known, it's one of his weapons (a passive one you could argue) but still a great weapon, and therefore he puts pressure on opponents to go for more than they normally would, therefore resulting in many more "unforced" errors.
Mass recalls take their toll on Protoss as well, it's a lot of units that eventually get mopped up and lots of money invested in each of those, they aren't free. If Free felt he wasn't getting the impact he expected, he might have felt pressure to switch, like Bisu did in the OSL. And seriously can you argue Flash is not the best TvP player in the world, and would you really bet your life savings that Stork or Best could take him in a Bo5?
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and you would you really bet your life savings that flash could take stork/best in a bo5 ?
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9070 Posts
my arguments are clearly not motivated by fanboysm because really I dont give a damn about those two players. The fact is free was taking out the top right expos of flash like they were nothing. Usually every protoss with strong economy tries to switch tech to carriers in the late game, but this is not an autowin option and there are many thing to be considered before doing such a thing. Again, free had great unit mix/ great map presence, good mobility and even my mum would say that he is in a dominant position, there was no reason for him to switch tech, especially knowing that flash has a lot of factories, upgrade heavy army and like 3 bases up and running, and the transition for him to goliaths would be piece of cake.
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I use that as an example to pull away fan affiliation and make it a cold hard decision based on fact. Let's put it this way, if someone told me I had to predict the winner of a Bo5 between Stork v Flash or Best v Flash, and I would get killed if I didn't predict it right, I would pick Flash. I'm not saying Flash is the best player in the world right now, but I'm saying that I would not pick a protoss over him in a Bo5.
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Flash is unquestionably the best PvTer out there,and doesn't really have competition,because other terrans suck nowadays,and even the better Terrans are weak against Protoss(FBH,Hwasin,Sea,ForGG). If Flash is in his top form,he can beat Best and Stork too. Also,Best's P v T is not so good ATM. One thing I'd love to see again is Bisu vs Flash,and I swear to God,that Bisu will finally win(I wouldn't bet in a box of beer tho ). And that match has a good chance,because Bisu meets(lol) Hoejja and Flash meets (ROFL) TheRock. So I think we will find some things out of that match if it happens,like is PvT really Bisu's achilles heel and is Flash still godlike vs Protoss.
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Ok, so like I said before, if Free had "no reason" to do that, then why did he? Watching the game on observer view with the outcome known is a lot different than when you're playing the game in the heat of the moment. If it was not Flash who pulled out this win I would chalk it up to "Free is a everloving retard." But this has happened before with Flash in a big-time game against a big-time opponent. When someone bends but doesn't break it's intimidating. I thought Flash was toast myself, but I was so impressed he could macro and recover as well as he did. There are very few if any other Terrans who would've even lasted long enough to force Free into that hasty decision in the first place.
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Sometimes Flash just rolls over guys like his game against Pure which was a joke, and many games against Rock and Bisu come to mind. Other times he has to play defense and win, that's the definition of being able to own a matchup.
Yes, I'm also excited to see Flash vs. Bisu in the GOM and hoping for a competitive match, but it just seems like Flash has Bisu's number. I'd actually be most interested in seeing a Flash v Best bo5 or bo3 or a Flash v Jangbi bo5 or bo3 to be honest. I feel like those two have the best shot, Jangbi more than Stork.
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9070 Posts
flash vs bisu on blue storm is a completely different deal, certain map specifics are favoring terran when the map is split, the lack of mobility becomes a minor factor and its easier for the terran to defend recall attacks. Remember that flash had like 3 rows of turrets in his main just below the 12 o'clock expo? The case with the drawn game vs jangbi was similar, when blue storm is split 50/50 the toss is short of options. And btw Bisu brought Flash to his very limits in this set, when the Ultimate Weapon was really raping shit. Both havent met in their top forms, yes Flash cheesed out Bisu in the OSL but Bisu beat the shit out of Flash in the MSL group as far as I can remember.
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I would like to see Flash vs Best too,but I would like to see a Bisu Best even more. I am really curious,if Bisu's PvP is really that good to beat Best,I beleive it is. And I also want to see Bisu finally beating Flash,so people saying Bisu's P v T is untested would finally shut the fuck up. But I fear that neither Flash Best,neither Bisu Best won't happen,because Effort is too much for Best in PvZ Imo.
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On December 04 2008 05:04 Hugo(Sphere) wrote:
people that like to play the "he did it to himself" arguments. That's the definition of a hater, not me being a "fanboy." You need some logic, and think to yourself, Why would an elite progamer, many are clamoring for a top 5 PR spot, decide to just switch to carriers for fun.
U are tryin` to say that progamers don`t make shitty decisions? it`s not necessary for fun, it`s just a thing that no one can understand. From time to time they just make really dumb decisions, it`s as simple as that.
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Lets make things clear here. I`m not saying flash sucks (he WAS playin` badly , but he seems to recover from his slump ). Also I`m not trying to argue about the fact that stork > flash, or best > flash. Maybe he could beat them, we don`t know, but the match between him and free...well, free didn`t play his best game, not even close to that.
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Effort seriously needs to be in PR. He's basically destroying everyone.
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tbh i think bisu would have a small advantage against flash right now.. like 51-49%
bisu is probably playing better, flash probably has a better understanding of the matchup. under normal circumstances i'd give flash the edge, but i think the current metagame+maps give protoss a significant advantage, it seems like most of the time terran has an incredibly small timing window before protoss' economy and tech kick in, and then they just get rolled. i've only seen them hit this a few times - every other terran win i've seen is either because one player outclasses the other or because protoss screws up somehow.
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Flash was not in a slump, he just suffered from the I-have-to-go-14-CC-every-single-game-curse.
Forgg doesn't have bad TvP, have you seen any games from him? in case of 'yes', which?
Though I want Bisu to win, the odds in flash-bisu are still around 65-35.
Best's might be a bit better.
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T v P used to be ForGG's best MU. I've seen many of his T v P's,and lately,he has been eliminated from all the tournaments in T v P. Last season,he lost to Shuttle in the Gom and wasn't even dominating in the match he had won. He lost to Much in the OSL,Stork in the MSL and WCG and to Soo in Gom. Look,I love ForGG,but based on these stats,and the games themselves I can say his T v P is not the best right now. It's like with Jaedong,his Z v P is supposed to be beastly,but I cannot bet on him winning all game sin the MU recently,and the same was with his Z v T. First he had a 15 games winstreak vs Terrans,and then he started to lose to them.
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If Fantasy is Oov apprentice, then Bisu is Midas apprentice
I really don't know why people like to compare players from the same team
I think Fantasy has no apprentice at all, cause he's stronger than any other Terran player from his team
He's probably the best terran player just behind Flash
Flash will be number 1 again in a couple of months
If Midas plays in godmode like before, SKT1 will crush the other teams
Good job from Bisu (the best player of this month) and good luck to Best
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9070 Posts
wow, there's a long and image heavy article in fomos about bisu and stork, I cant wait for someone to translate it
@ OneOther: you should check out the video posted in the article and give me a hug
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United States2186 Posts
The people who can potentially beat Flash are Bisu, Free, and Jangbi, with Bisu having the highest chance (over 50). Stork is likely getting hit by the curse as we speak, and even without it has had a very severe history versus Flash. Best has no ability to plan out a series and adapt on the fly. Jangbi is also kinda bad in this respect but his PvT otherwise is just so ridiculously good that it might give him a shot anyway. Bisu is definitely the best player to go against Flash, because Flash won't be able to outthink Bisu very easily, if at all. Bisu's PvT is weak to mechanics and straight up players like Mind, not to strategists like Flash, as his Bacchus games showed (where he looked much better than vs Mind). Free is a pretty strong series player and would certainly have a fair shot.
Flash was slumping like hell. He went from 'I will outsmart you and outthink you without scouting you' to 'I'm just going to rely on my mechanics because I'm exhausted and can't spend the time to plan out every match at the same old level,' which of course equalled disaster. After his loss against Jaedong he at least seemed to show a revival, as his defense versus Light was top notch, had a non-macro well thought out strategy vs Jaehoon, and his play versus Fantasy, despite what FakeSteve said, was really nice, at least on Andromeda. Zero is a great player now and there's no shame to losing to him.
The only other good TvPer is mind, who is obviously inconsistent. But he's the other hope that Gom won't be Protoss infested madness.
The game vs Free on Andro was pretty weird though, so I went and took a closer look. First of all, Free did not have that in the bag with Arbiters and ground play. Free did gain an impressive lead with nice stasis on the first attack and that lucky/random early isle expansion seeing the hidden expo. However, it was pretty obvious that Free was unable to stop Flash from taking the 1 bases after that failed recall into 3 which gave Flash enough time to get the CC's at 1 up and thus turret/mine up if Free didn't go carriers; once that would be the case, it'd be 8 base toss vs 7 base Flash, who had just gotten +3 attack. A recipe for disaster. The recalls were costing Free a lot, and while he had the money, he didn't necessarily have the time, as he needed to defeat Flash before 1 got up and Flash was able to defend it and get the gas for more vessels and tanks.
Free was clearly planning for the late late game, and carriers are quite strong on Andro in that they guarantee you both islands (Arbs *kinda* do but not nearly to the same degree. 6 was up for grabs still). 7 stargates with 1 pylon was obviously a mistake, as a more slow and safe transition would have been better. But Free's decision was clearly balanced by his failed attempts to stop Flash from taking 1. You can throw away 40 supply armies and use all your mana for recall over stasis for maybe a few Terran units just to stop CCs for some time, but not forever. Right as Free teched to carriers, there was a break in his recalling ability anyway and Flash would've had 1 up and defended. So actually the carriers was a good, well-foreseen plan. Just the implementation was bad.
Basically you have to realize that with the mass amount of recalls that Free was doing, he wasn't going to have much, if any mana for stasis. And stasis was the one reason why he was winning battles earlier. So either a) he has to gamble on a frontal attack and avoid being emped to get enough stasises off, which would lose him the game if failed. or b) continually prevent Flash from taking 1 with recalls, which lost their steam after awhile and especially after that blocked recall into 3 and losing the arbiters. What would have been a better plan for Free would have been to pressure Flash's main as well as 1 at the same time, but he clearly wasn't thinking in that direction. And without applying pressure on the main and forcing Flash to cover large distances with his army, Free was likely going to lose with an arbiter/ground army, making carriers and the islands the best strategy.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On December 04 2008 05:18 Darth Peter wrote:
Also,Best's P v T is not so good ATM. Because he just lost his first PvT after winning the 9 games before that on a Terran favoured map?
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EPT
