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Power Rank 11/10/2008 - Page 34

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
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StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
December 02 2008 12:12 GMT
#661
Where should flash be? he's gone 13-2 his last 15 games, woot
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Darth Peter
Profile Joined October 2008
Romania438 Posts
December 02 2008 12:16 GMT
#662
I would put Flash on 4 or 5. I think Free is just more impressive right now,because of the leagues and stuff. Also,Flash seems unable to win vs decent zergs lately. And no, I am not talking about Jaedong. Just watch his stats vs Zergs in the last months. I personally would put him above Jangbi,but Jangbi was ahead of him last month, and Jangbi did nothing to be ranked lower than he was. He lost to Bisu,but Bisu is no1 or no2.
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
December 02 2008 12:26 GMT
#663
darth peter i havent read your post now and i just realised flash played a game today, out of fear u'll spoil it i wont read your post yet;) ill watch the vods before visiting this thread again though BYE
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-02 12:54:27
December 02 2008 12:49 GMT
#664
On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:
On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.

stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2.


While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans?

Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players.



I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come ....



ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later.

About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...)


EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
December 02 2008 16:34 GMT
#665
On December 02 2008 21:49 Geo.Rion wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On December 02 2008 19:28 raga4ka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2008 17:01 baubo wrote:
On December 02 2008 13:30 Hot_Bid wrote:
the question PR is supposed to answer, if deciding between two players, is who would win a Bo5 between them right now? OSL or no OSL, given their current levels it's pretty clear.

stork beat bisu eight weeks ago in a very close 2-1 win where Bisu was up huge in the deciding game three. since then, we have seen little of stork's pvp other than losing to kal 2-3 and not doing well in PL. bisu however has beaten free 3-1 and jangbi 3-1, so the decision is pretty clear in my eyes, the December PR should have Bisu at #1 and Stork at #2.


While I agree that Bisu should be #1(Stork just underperforming tremendously since his OSL win), this argument is flawed. Every player has weak and strong MUs. For example, Best and Stork would likely win a Bo5 against any terran on the planet, all the while can be utterly embarrased by mediocre zergs at any given time. So do they rate behind zergs or above terrans?

Anyway, quite disappointed in Stork and Jaedong's recent slumps. Neither has been playing like they're invincible recently. They are my favorite players of their respective races, and it sucks to keep seeing them get owned by lesser players.



I don't think that Stork is underperforming tremendously he just lost 3 PvP's in PL to KaL Pusan and Movie who seems to be very good in PvP and Bisu lost to tazza so in PvP the mirror MU anything can happen not like TvT or ZvZ where clearly the more skilled players wins aka Flash or Jaedong ... I didn't know that protoss is all about PvP ... I wan't to see Bisu in PL vs a decent terran to see how he is performing . Stork did beat Nal_keke in Gom who at least managed to outmacro Best on Destination i'm thinking that no one is takeing GOM seriously and it doesn't change much in the PR until the finals come ....



ZvZ is more luckbased than PvP, at least it seems to me. Jaedong somehow mastered that mu, but the others provide conradictory results, like beating Luxury one day loosing to a noob later.

About Bisu beating good terrans. Everyobdy was yellin aobut how awesome FBH is, and how good his pvp became, and he's 1st or 2nd best terran on Erath etc, he got 3-0ed. I guess nobody counts the games against Hwasin, but Hwasin isn't a bad player either. Just beat Best (ok, i know it was more Best's fault) And expecting Bisu to take down great Terrans... Why do you expect him to prove more in his weakest MU? You should ask stork to beat Effort, Calm, JUly, Jaedong in a raw than (i give 4 names cuz zergs recently suck, so if you actually beat one of them, it may be only cuz he's slumping, or he lost the sense to ZVP, koghhh.. Jaedong koghhh...)


EDIT: if only BIsu took that game against Tazza more serious, we wouldn't discuss about the first spot cuz there would be no question


I agree, ZvZ is more luck based than PvP
other than that, OneOther should place stork/bisu in whatever order he wants. (or is FS doin` the PR? I won`t get anxious yet)
Also, JD is ... I`m sad not only for him, but for the whole zerg race. How would a PR look with no zergs on it ?!
and :+ Show Spoiler +
I hope free's run in the MSL wasn`t a one-hit-wonder :s
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
Polar_Bear
Profile Joined May 2008
Germany55 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-02 16:47:12
December 02 2008 16:46 GMT
#666
s.th. to think about:
since Bisu has lost to fbh in the MSL group stage he went 21-5, playing 26 games.
The game vs. Tazza was incredibly bad; taking the expansion at the bottom was totally nuts, he didn't play well the rest of the game neither.
The game vs. Yellow[Arnc] was not that great, though Bisu won it.
He probably had a bad day, dropped a game vs. an inferior player.
But there are still 24 games left and Bisu played between "well" and "fucking great" in every single one, he only lost to really good player, always showing at least a decent fight. And Bisu deserves each of his 21 (!!!) wins.
Stork went 19-12 since that day. He played very well in proleague in october, ripped apart Best, which was huge and demolished fantasy in the first two games.
But:
-the last 2 games of his series vs. forgg weren't 100% convincing. excuse: forgg is a great player
-he lost to Kal who has mediocre PvP in a bo5. excuse: it was the day before the OSL finals and those guys have a "history" (imo the last point is rubbish)
-he dropped a game vs. fantasy unnecessarily in the OSL finals. excuse: Stork was nervous and fantasy is a very good player.
-since his OSL win, he hasn't shown a convincing game vs. a decent player. Keke just did s.th. very "unusual" in the 2nd game, Calm's front-door-break looked like a amateur vs. pro match etc.
excuse: still vacant

To put it in a nutshell:
Anybody who cares about getting results, playing well and general recent shape of players will not put Stork above Bisu.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-02 17:09:48
December 02 2008 16:46 GMT
#667
A pr spot most be granted to Effort, or at least i would give one. It's just PL, but this month we havent anything else, he's still in the GOM, so i see no legitime reason leaving him out, he's winning, and more important he plays damn good
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Darth Peter
Profile Joined October 2008
Romania438 Posts
December 02 2008 17:03 GMT
#668
One problem with Effort,he didn't qualify for the MSL,and qualifying for the OSL is harder,because if it is in the same system as the last season,he will have to beat a player who was in the OSL last season. Now if he gets Light,or Midas,or TheZerg or Rock or Mind he will qualify. But what if he has to beat Flash,Bisu,GGPlay,and players like that.Of course it isn't so bad,considering Best and Pusan didn't qualify,but still. I'm not sure if deserves a ranking yet. There are 8 people who cannot be left out of the top10,and for the rest of the two spots there are players like Pusan,FBH,Calm,Zero. With Effort,there are 5 people for those two spots. It is really hard to decide between them. If we take into account only PL,Pusan definitely should be on the list,because he is so freakin' awesome these days. FBH is also carrying his team on his back,and Zero is fuckin' awesome lately. I would definitely consider him for a spot. This month's power rank will be especially hard to write.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-02 17:13:15
December 02 2008 17:12 GMT
#669
On December 03 2008 02:03 Darth Peter wrote:
One problem with Effort,he didn't qualify for the MSL,and qualifying for the OSL is harder,because if it is in the same system as the last season,he will have to beat a player who was in the OSL last season. Now if he gets Light,or Midas,or TheZerg or Rock or Mind he will qualify. But what if he has to beat Flash,Bisu,GGPlay,and players like that.Of course it isn't so bad,considering Best and Pusan didn't qualify,but still. I'm not sure if deserves a ranking yet. There are 8 people who cannot be left out of the top10,and for the rest of the two spots there are players like Pusan,FBH,Calm,Zero. With Effort,there are 5 people for those two spots. It is really hard to decide between them. If we take into account only PL,Pusan definitely should be on the list,because he is so freakin' awesome these days. FBH is also carrying his team on his back,and Zero is fuckin' awesome lately. I would definitely consider him for a spot. This month's power rank will be especially hard to write.


What would happen if he meets Bisu, GGplay or Flash? Well, looses to Bisu, shitrapes the other 2 (Flash can't play TvZ recently, aaltough i didn't watch his game today yet, cuz it's not uploaded)
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Darth Peter
Profile Joined October 2008
Romania438 Posts
December 02 2008 17:42 GMT
#670
Definitely wouldn't be shitrape. It's rather a tossup. If Flash finds his beastly T v Z again,he will shitrape. If he doesn't,he will win or lose with 2-1. And ZvZ is unpredictable,and GGPlay is not bad at all in it,so that's another tossup. But I have the feeling Effort won't qualify in it either way. I thought he was going to go far in the MSL,but he was eliminated. I don't know what to think of him. He played really well in PL,but was shamefully eliminated in MSL.
MrHoon *
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
10183 Posts
December 02 2008 17:48 GMT
#671
On December 03 2008 02:12 Geo.Rion wrote:(Flash can't play TvZ recently, aaltough i didn't watch his game today yet, cuz it's not uploaded)

yep, 62% thats a shitty TvZ right there, and he lost to someone who had a 9/4 record.
Yeah man, Effort will have an easier time against Flash
dats racist
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-02 18:50:47
December 02 2008 18:08 GMT
#672
On December 03 2008 02:48 MrHoon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2008 02:12 Geo.Rion wrote:(Flash can't play TvZ recently, aaltough i didn't watch his game today yet, cuz it's not uploaded)

yep, 62% thats a shitty TvZ right there, and he lost to someone who had a 9/4 record.
Yeah man, Effort will have an easier time against Flash


Oov has 61% overall right now, with and amazing 68 percent aginst zerg. Yet he lost to Zergboy in a bo3 and another match in PL.

Flash's recent TvZ achievemnts:
loosing to yarnc twice in MSL
loosing to GGplay in OSL
going 0-2 in PL against 2 good players (his match against hyva doesnt counts here, cuz i don't know what happened there, or who won)
he defeated Study (0-4 lifetime stat)
other than that he didn't do anything. Oh, wait, he lost in a showmatch on Plasma against Rumble, nice result.

i might misinterpreted everything and Flash's TvZ is still godly, who knows...

EDIT: ok i spoiled to myself, so Flash won, and ppl say it was an epic match with Flash playin briliantly. Well i should watch it when it is uploaded i guess, but it's a bit hard to imagine how does someone play an epci match against hyvva or whoever
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Darth Peter
Profile Joined October 2008
Romania438 Posts
December 02 2008 18:34 GMT
#673
And I won't spoil his game vs hyvaa,but even if he beats hyvaa,what? Sair beat him already,and nearly every half decent players did. His T v Z isn't what it used to be,everybody has to admit that.
Sentenal
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States12398 Posts
December 02 2008 20:38 GMT
#674
On December 02 2008 19:24 raga4ka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2008 12:52 Sentenal wrote:
We are using the OSL and MSL wins to Judge Stork and Bisu's skill, are we not?

If you look at Stork's OSL run, it was difficult for him. Close series, tough oppenents, things like that. He fought through it, but he didn't dominate the OSL. Bisu's MSL run had less tough opponents, but he dominated it.

What I'm trying to say is this:
Harder Starleague + Difficult run = Easier Starleague + Dominating run


No its not because in the difficult run Bisu can't win it , he got eliminated by Stork on the easy run he can FBH , Hwasin and some players that aren't known for their PvP ...

And here again, you are faulting Bisu for losing to Stork about 2 months ago. Did you see Bisu play vs Free and Jangbi? Did you actually watch Bisu vs Stork? It was a very close series. Props to Stork for winning it, but its not like it was a blow out. Just about all of Stork's OSL series were close series, where Stork was put into the danger of elimination.

And lets turn your logic on its head too. Bisu wasn't able to win in the "harder" run of the OSL. But on the other hand, Stork wasn't able to win in the "easier" run of the MSL. Which is worse? Stork was eliminated by the guy, who got eliminated by the guy, who Bisu eliminated. Or is that logic of yours just bad?
"Apparently, Sentenal is a paragon of friendship and tolerance. " - Ech0ne
Darth Peter
Profile Joined October 2008
Romania438 Posts
December 02 2008 20:50 GMT
#675
We shouldn't compare Bisu's MSL run with Stork's OSL run. Stork was scary good last month. He kept advancing in every league and kept winning in Proleague too. He was worthy of the PR 1 spot last month,because he was just simply the best player on the world. Bisu dominated MSL and won. It is sealed here. If Stork didn't have played a single game this month,I'd say he should still be no1,because he was the king last month,and he didn't play this month,because he was busy last month. But Stork did play this month. If we take his Gom matches in account,which were vs Keke,who is terrible,he is 4-4 this month. He lost to all the good protoss players he played this month,and his PvP is his strongest MU. It just seems,that no matter what,he will never beat Kal for some reason. We cannot say anithing about his P vZ,he beats bad players,he loses to good players,and he cannot really adapt to trcky BO's. His P v T is the best out there,but seriously,what terran Bisu couldn't beat and Stork could beat right now,besides Flash. And you cannot be sure even in that. Bisu played terribly in three of his PvP's this month,but played brilliantly in other PvP's. Stork however,was more consistent. He didn't play terrible,he didn't play brilliantly,he played constantly bad. The fact,that Stork beat Bisu last month says nothing. It was a Bo3,who knows what would happen in a Bo5. And even in those series,it was very close. You cannot really say Stork is better than Bisu based on that. And if we even look at the level of their paths,just look on the PR. Where is Best and Fantasy,and where is Jangbi,Free and FBH on it. I say if Bisu doesn't lose to Reach tomorrow,he should be no1.
Sentenal
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States12398 Posts
December 02 2008 21:28 GMT
#676
Only problem is, Mantoss is gonna rape Bisu I mean, hes in the army now. It pains me to watch my two favorite players play each other, when I know they both can't win.
"Apparently, Sentenal is a paragon of friendship and tolerance. " - Ech0ne
TheTyranid
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Russian Federation4333 Posts
December 03 2008 00:28 GMT
#677
It's the beginning of the month so I'm wondering when the new PR is going to be up.

I recommend it be done before Survivor starts because some people will be dropped if they fail MSL and others that potentially could fail will get a higher PR spot only to be eliminated from the MSL a few days later.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
December 03 2008 04:48 GMT
#678
On December 03 2008 05:38 Sentenal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2008 19:24 raga4ka wrote:
On December 02 2008 12:52 Sentenal wrote:
We are using the OSL and MSL wins to Judge Stork and Bisu's skill, are we not?

If you look at Stork's OSL run, it was difficult for him. Close series, tough oppenents, things like that. He fought through it, but he didn't dominate the OSL. Bisu's MSL run had less tough opponents, but he dominated it.

What I'm trying to say is this:
Harder Starleague + Difficult run = Easier Starleague + Dominating run


No its not because in the difficult run Bisu can't win it , he got eliminated by Stork on the easy run he can FBH , Hwasin and some players that aren't known for their PvP ...

And here again, you are faulting Bisu for losing to Stork about 2 months ago. Did you see Bisu play vs Free and Jangbi? Did you actually watch Bisu vs Stork? It was a very close series. Props to Stork for winning it, but its not like it was a blow out. Just about all of Stork's OSL series were close series, where Stork was put into the danger of elimination.

And lets turn your logic on its head too. Bisu wasn't able to win in the "harder" run of the OSL. But on the other hand, Stork wasn't able to win in the "easier" run of the MSL. Which is worse? Stork was eliminated by the guy, who got eliminated by the guy, who Bisu eliminated. Or is that logic of yours just bad?

hahaha good first paragraph, but transitive property isn't applicable in progaming ;D
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
December 03 2008 04:50 GMT
#679
On December 03 2008 05:38 Sentenal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2008 19:24 raga4ka wrote:
On December 02 2008 12:52 Sentenal wrote:
We are using the OSL and MSL wins to Judge Stork and Bisu's skill, are we not?

If you look at Stork's OSL run, it was difficult for him. Close series, tough oppenents, things like that. He fought through it, but he didn't dominate the OSL. Bisu's MSL run had less tough opponents, but he dominated it.

What I'm trying to say is this:
Harder Starleague + Difficult run = Easier Starleague + Dominating run


No its not because in the difficult run Bisu can't win it , he got eliminated by Stork on the easy run he can FBH , Hwasin and some players that aren't known for their PvP ...

And here again, you are faulting Bisu for losing to Stork about 2 months ago. Did you see Bisu play vs Free and Jangbi? Did you actually watch Bisu vs Stork? It was a very close series. Props to Stork for winning it, but its not like it was a blow out. Just about all of Stork's OSL series were close series, where Stork was put into the danger of elimination.

And lets turn your logic on its head too. Bisu wasn't able to win in the "harder" run of the OSL. But on the other hand, Stork wasn't able to win in the "easier" run of the MSL. Which is worse? Stork was eliminated by the guy, who got eliminated by the guy, who Bisu eliminated. Or is that logic of yours just bad?

Bisu, was eliminated by the guy, who-no wait, that was Stork himself.
Jaedong
Jaeden
Profile Joined September 2008
Romania1489 Posts
December 03 2008 06:19 GMT
#680
a week ago, stork/bisu were interchangeable, and if I would`ve done the PR I would simply put stork above bisu just for the reason that I like stork more. They were to close to each other. However in the last week stork lost 2 matches...
Boxer: " Lee Jae Dong is the best player. He`s all about the micro; he`s the player which has the most amazing control"
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