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Power Rank 11/10/2008 - Page 23

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
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OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
November 25 2008 04:35 GMT
#441
I do agree it's kind of unfair to overlook a player's PvZ because he has not played Jaedong or July lol. I mean, every other zerg is considered mediocre to bad. what is he supposed to do?
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
November 25 2008 04:50 GMT
#442
On November 25 2008 13:07 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Jangbi is like 13-1 since april PvZ, is free really that much stronger?
I'm not a fan of jangbi haven't watched his PvZ games so i don't know how well he played, fact that he faced yarnc alot might have something to do with it, but free drops a game here and there also, some vs jaedong but some vs others aswell.. statisticly jangbi's pvz is on fire..

even if he didn't face jaedong, that kind of streak means something

EDIT: Yellow arnc actually played 8-2 his latest 10 zvp if it wasn't for Jangbi.


Woah, never realized this. Although some games are quite old, Yarnc still shows that ZvP is not a terrible MU for him. He can at least beat up 2nd rate tosses.
Meh
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
November 25 2008 04:54 GMT
#443
On November 25 2008 13:35 OneOther wrote:
I do agree it's kind of unfair to overlook a player's PvZ because he has not played Jaedong or July lol. I mean, every other zerg is considered mediocre to bad. what is he supposed to do?


exactly, its not JangBi's fault he asn't played jaedong. What else can he do than rape any other zerg that comes in his way? Therefor i don't really aprove that Free's pvz is so much better than his, it's actually hard to tell.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
Darth Peter
Profile Joined October 2008
Romania438 Posts
November 25 2008 05:19 GMT
#444
Okay,so I didn't say Jangbi is not good at PL or anything,but despite his MSL and Gom matches,Free played in nearly every game Woongjin had,and played in nearly every ace match. While Jangbi has good records too,he didn't play as much as Free in the PL and I don't remember him playing any ace matches. So Jangbi is a part of a good working team,while Free is carrying a not so good team on his back. Okay,maybe if Jangbi was on woongjin,he would carry them alone too. I don't know. But come on,I don't know why would Jangbi's P v T be better than Free's,and what would indicate this. They are both statistically really good,but I haven't seen Jangbi play vs a goodT in a long time. And perhaps Free's latest opponents were not so good,but he ownd the hell out of them. I think their most significant wins vs T are vs Flash. Btw,Free is playing him tonight,and if he beats him,I cannot see a reason why would Jangbi's P v T be better than Free's.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
November 25 2008 05:28 GMT
#445
Darth Peter I understand what you are saying about Free playing a lot in Proleague, but don't try to argue that Jangbi isn't better at Free in PvT. Due to free's hyper aggressive style, his PvT is inconsistent. On the other hand, Jangbi has a super safe PvT style with tons of variations, and his superb reaver micro alone shows the difference in their PvT. I am not saying Free is bad at it (he is actually pretty damn good), but he doesn't quite measure up to Jangbi in the matchup. And if you want to talk about statistics, there's a large gap there as well - Jangbi sitting at 65%, Free at 55%. Lastly, your argument that Free beating Flash somehow makes his PvT better than Jangbi's is highly flawed. That logic does not work in progaming, and both of them have beaten Flash in the past. What's your point?
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
November 25 2008 05:33 GMT
#446
On November 25 2008 13:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2008 13:35 OneOther wrote:
I do agree it's kind of unfair to overlook a player's PvZ because he has not played Jaedong or July lol. I mean, every other zerg is considered mediocre to bad. what is he supposed to do?


exactly, its not JangBi's fault he asn't played jaedong. What else can he do than rape any other zerg that comes in his way? Therefor i don't really aprove that Free's pvz is so much better than his, it's actually hard to tell.

I concur.
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
November 25 2008 05:41 GMT
#447
i think jangbi should move up next PR if he keeps playing this good, and free, lets wait and see, hopefully he'll play 2 games in a couple of hours.. hopefully vs flash too which will make the PR easier.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
November 25 2008 05:50 GMT
#448
Anyways, I hope we are all in an agreement Jaedong needs to be dropped a couple spots because he played like an ass in the ace matches verses Kal and FireBatHero. If he lost against them playing decently, the penalty wouldn't be as harsh because they are both good players. However, I just watched both games again and boy did he play horribly. There are absolutely other players who deserve to be on top of him.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
November 25 2008 05:53 GMT
#449
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
November 25 2008 05:58 GMT
#450
I pasted the win list to show that's exactly why Free's PvZ is better than Jangbi's. He has won against the best ZvP while Jangbi hasn't. I'm not showing why Jangbi sucks, I'm just showing that Free has done something no Protoss has EVER done in about 2 years, take a series off Jaedong.Rock is the only other protoss that has EVER done so.
Jaedong
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
November 25 2008 05:59 GMT
#451
On November 25 2008 14:53 OneOther wrote:
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass.


He consistently makes it to the late game with an advantage and blows it. It's like saying he's good at two MUs, early and mid-game.
Jaedong
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
November 25 2008 06:06 GMT
#452
On November 25 2008 14:58 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I pasted the win list to show that's exactly why Free's PvZ is better than Jangbi's. He has won against the best ZvP while Jangbi hasn't. I'm not showing why Jangbi sucks, I'm just showing that Free has done something no Protoss has EVER done in about 2 years, take a series off Jaedong.Rock is the only other protoss that has EVER done so.

Hahahaha I don't think you should have included Rock in there. Only effect is that it shows beating a player once doesn't justify how good of a player he actually is.

On a series note, I think what people are saying is that it's not Jangbi's fault he hasn't played Jaedong/July yet, since most people consider them to be the only Zergs that can prove someone's PvZ. Yeah, Free beating Jaedong was great, but Jangbi has been raping just as hard besides the fact that he just hasn't played Jaedong. Does this automatically put Free's PvZ above Jangbi's? I am not so sure. (Someone also mentioned Yellow[ArnC] is 8-2 in latest ZvPs excluding his games verses Jangbi, which isn't that bad at all. The fact that Jangbi is able to beat him and other Zergs so consistently shouldn't be overlooked imo.)
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-25 06:08:46
November 25 2008 06:08 GMT
#453
On November 25 2008 14:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2008 14:53 OneOther wrote:
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass.


He consistently makes it to the late game with an advantage and blows it. It's like saying he's good at two MUs, early and mid-game.

No we shouldn't look at it like that. All that means is this: if he plays badly after a disadvantageous early game, then that's nowhere as bad as getting far ahead and then sucking hard enough to blow it in an ugly fashion. He's been doing the latter.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
November 25 2008 06:11 GMT
#454
On November 25 2008 15:06 OneOther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2008 14:58 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I pasted the win list to show that's exactly why Free's PvZ is better than Jangbi's. He has won against the best ZvP while Jangbi hasn't. I'm not showing why Jangbi sucks, I'm just showing that Free has done something no Protoss has EVER done in about 2 years, take a series off Jaedong.Rock is the only other protoss that has EVER done so.

Hahahaha I don't think you should have included Rock in there. Only effect is that it shows beating a player once doesn't justify how good of a player he actually is.

On a series note, I think what people are saying is that it's not Jangbi's fault he hasn't played Jaedong/July yet, since most people consider them to be the only Zergs that can prove someone's PvZ. Yeah, Free beating Jaedong was great, but Jangbi has been raping just as hard besides the fact that he just hasn't played Jaedong. Does this automatically put Free's PvZ above Jangbi's? I am not so sure. (Someone also mentioned Yellow[ArnC] is 8-2 in latest ZvPs excluding his games verses Jangbi, which isn't that bad at all. The fact that Jangbi is able to beat him and other Zergs so consistently shouldn't be overlooked imo.)


I see Jangbi's situation like Best, they both use their great macro to overrun their opponents. But that doesn't work any better zergs, for that you need a understanding of the matchups, which hasn't shown itself. Again, I'm not saying he's bad, he just hasn't proven himself. I know it's not his fault, but it's like the same argument how he got a cakewalk MSL and therefore shouldn't be too high.
Jaedong
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
November 25 2008 06:12 GMT
#455
On November 25 2008 15:08 OneOther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2008 14:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On November 25 2008 14:53 OneOther wrote:
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass.


He consistently makes it to the late game with an advantage and blows it. It's like saying he's good at two MUs, early and mid-game.

No we shouldn't look at it like that. All that means is this: if he plays badly after a disadvantageous early game, then that's nowhere as bad as getting far ahead and then sucking hard enough to blow it in an ugly fashion. He's been doing the latter.


That's subjective, you could say then he's not good enough to even make it to the late-game, well this is only two games that he's blown a huge lead, and two of the 3 I can remember in recent history (the other against Free). I'm curious to see where this will go.
Jaedong
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
November 25 2008 06:13 GMT
#456
Its just sad to see a player with such potential drop spots. However i agree that he should.
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
November 25 2008 06:17 GMT
#457
On November 25 2008 15:12 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2008 15:08 OneOther wrote:
On November 25 2008 14:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On November 25 2008 14:53 OneOther wrote:
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass.


He consistently makes it to the late game with an advantage and blows it. It's like saying he's good at two MUs, early and mid-game.

No we shouldn't look at it like that. All that means is this: if he plays badly after a disadvantageous early game, then that's nowhere as bad as getting far ahead and then sucking hard enough to blow it in an ugly fashion. He's been doing the latter.


That's subjective, you could say then he's not good enough to even make it to the late-game, well this is only two games that he's blown a huge lead, and two of the 3 I can remember in recent history (the other against Free). I'm curious to see where this will go.

What are you talking about? How is that subjective? It means everything went right for Jaedong and he managed to mess it up badly. I don't really understand your logic of "he's not good enough to make it to the late game."

OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-25 06:20:29
November 25 2008 06:19 GMT
#458
On November 25 2008 15:11 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2008 15:06 OneOther wrote:
On November 25 2008 14:58 Avidkeystamper wrote:
I pasted the win list to show that's exactly why Free's PvZ is better than Jangbi's. He has won against the best ZvP while Jangbi hasn't. I'm not showing why Jangbi sucks, I'm just showing that Free has done something no Protoss has EVER done in about 2 years, take a series off Jaedong.Rock is the only other protoss that has EVER done so.

Hahahaha I don't think you should have included Rock in there. Only effect is that it shows beating a player once doesn't justify how good of a player he actually is.

On a series note, I think what people are saying is that it's not Jangbi's fault he hasn't played Jaedong/July yet, since most people consider them to be the only Zergs that can prove someone's PvZ. Yeah, Free beating Jaedong was great, but Jangbi has been raping just as hard besides the fact that he just hasn't played Jaedong. Does this automatically put Free's PvZ above Jangbi's? I am not so sure. (Someone also mentioned Yellow[ArnC] is 8-2 in latest ZvPs excluding his games verses Jangbi, which isn't that bad at all. The fact that Jangbi is able to beat him and other Zergs so consistently shouldn't be overlooked imo.)


I see Jangbi's situation like Best, they both use their great macro to overrun their opponents. But that doesn't work any better zergs, for that you need a understanding of the matchups, which hasn't shown itself. Again, I'm not saying he's bad, he just hasn't proven himself. I know it's not his fault, but it's like the same argument how he got a cakewalk MSL and therefore shouldn't be too high.

Okay I see your point. However, Jangbi is nothing like Best. Jangbi is much more technical, much more harass-oriented, and often shows more variations in strategies/builds. He reads the game well and does what he needs to do to secure the win.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
November 25 2008 06:21 GMT
#459
On November 25 2008 15:17 OneOther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2008 15:12 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On November 25 2008 15:08 OneOther wrote:
On November 25 2008 14:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On November 25 2008 14:53 OneOther wrote:
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass.


He consistently makes it to the late game with an advantage and blows it. It's like saying he's good at two MUs, early and mid-game.

No we shouldn't look at it like that. All that means is this: if he plays badly after a disadvantageous early game, then that's nowhere as bad as getting far ahead and then sucking hard enough to blow it in an ugly fashion. He's been doing the latter.


That's subjective, you could say then he's not good enough to even make it to the late-game, well this is only two games that he's blown a huge lead, and two of the 3 I can remember in recent history (the other against Free). I'm curious to see where this will go.

What are you talking about? How is that subjective? It means everything went right for Jaedong and he managed to mess it up badly. I don't really understand your logic of "he's not good enough to make it to the late game."


Blech, just remove the first sentence.
Jaedong
StylishVODs
Profile Joined December 2005
Sweden5331 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-25 06:26:01
November 25 2008 06:25 GMT
#460
On November 25 2008 15:21 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2008 15:17 OneOther wrote:
On November 25 2008 15:12 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On November 25 2008 15:08 OneOther wrote:
On November 25 2008 14:59 Avidkeystamper wrote:
On November 25 2008 14:53 OneOther wrote:
I don't remember the last time Jaedong got far ahead like that and then blowing it by sucking enormous balls. Consistent level of play my ass.


He consistently makes it to the late game with an advantage and blows it. It's like saying he's good at two MUs, early and mid-game.

No we shouldn't look at it like that. All that means is this: if he plays badly after a disadvantageous early game, then that's nowhere as bad as getting far ahead and then sucking hard enough to blow it in an ugly fashion. He's been doing the latter.


That's subjective, you could say then he's not good enough to even make it to the late-game, well this is only two games that he's blown a huge lead, and two of the 3 I can remember in recent history (the other against Free). I'm curious to see where this will go.

What are you talking about? How is that subjective? It means everything went right for Jaedong and he managed to mess it up badly. I don't really understand your logic of "he's not good enough to make it to the late game."


Blech, just remove the first sentence.


that leaves us with: "I'm curious to see where this will go."

Sorry, i just had to^^
According to Reach, he is the fastest learner he has ever seen. He start bw only like 2/3 years ago. Infact, his bw history knowledge is so limited, he didn't even know what the map Guillotine was.
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