EPTI wasn`t talking seriously u know...
Power Rank 09/15/2008 - Page 14
| Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet |
|
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
I wasn`t talking seriously u know... | ||
|
Krigstar
Sweden77 Posts
On October 12 2008 07:44 CDRdude wrote: After doing my best to understand your nonsensical logic, I came up with this: since Sea hasn't done well in individual leagues, we should ban him from the power rank. More precisely, since he's failed, and hasn't won any leagues, he isn't allowed onto the power rank. Okay, I think that's the best translation of the bizarre, otherworld nonsense you posted I can manage. My question is this: So why doesn't that apply to stork? Stork keeps "failing" and getting second places. Or how about, say, Luxury. He choked in the semifinals of leagues before, let's kick him off the power rank too! What the hell has got you so upset about sea? Because you don't like him, you think the bar should be higher for him? Oh, that'll make a great power rank! "Hey, look everybody, this is a monthly list of good players, except for the ones I don't like for various reasons!" Yeah, that sounds fucking fantastic. Seriously though, what did Sea ever do to you? You can tell us. Just show us on the doll where he touched you. You claim second place is failing when speaking about Stork. I understand your logic to then treat Stork, Luxury and Sea as failures, but to me, reaching second place in numerous tournaments like Stork and show results is more worth than qualifying for tournaments and then getting raped no matter the opponent like Sea. If you treat second place and qualifying as equal accomplishments then how the hell do you make a list? I mean the reason Sea has been on the rank so many times is because the author said he had potential (sometimes backed up with a strong proleague record). I just question how much potential he can have or for how long that should be taken into account when he pretty much failed more consistently than anyone else in the history of pro-gaming. My logic is that a player should never be able to have a consistent spot on the rank when he doesn't have any single achievement. Putting up new players in the top 8-10 area that played good the last month is fine by me, but having someone take up a spot in every rank every month without having to do anything to deserve it, is wrong in my opinion. I like Sea btw and love the attention he has given to the foreign community, but that doesn't change the fact that the power rank authors have overrated him like crazy. I think it's fair to underrate him for a while to even up and force him to make some results like the rest of the top 10 players before considering him again. Putting him on another month for "looking strong" or "having potential" should be a fucking insult to Sea. Let the results speak for him just once is my suggestion. | ||
|
ScarFace
United States1175 Posts
| ||
|
Nitan
United States3401 Posts
| ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On October 12 2008 05:07 Februarys wrote: Because Jaedong is obviously a better player than Stork? Jaedong > Stork, we know this because last time Jaedong met Stork in matches, he played a 1 sided rape game Your reasoning is so fucking awful I almost considered not wasting my time arguing against, but I will do it anyway. So, you are basically saying that Jaedong should be placed above Stork regardless how they are performing in individual leagues because he won the last time they played? Stork is in the semifinals of OSL, buddy. Following your logic, Frozean should be placed above Jaedong since the last two games they played it was a complete one-sided rape. Oh yeah, and forGG should definitely be above JD as well. Remember the 3-0 assrape? Yeah. forGG>Jaedong, clearly. Guys, this power rank should be solely based on performance, not who we think can beat who. Sure, JD has done well against Stork in the past, but that doesn't mean we can just ignore their performances in the leagues. We never know what's going to happen. Therefore, we need to base the rankings on relative performances. We can't say Flash would beat Stork in a BO5, either. Flash isn't playing at his best, while Stork clearly is. Just because Flash has beaten him the past two finals, can we make an assumption that results would be the same? Definitely not. Stork has beaten him 3-0 before, too. Power Ranking = Monthly Performance | ||
|
CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
On October 12 2008 09:41 Krigstar wrote: Let the results speak for him just once is my suggestion. But it's not all about the results. It's about who is the strongest at a given point in time. Sure, results are a good way of measuring that, but if it was all about results, the power rank is going to look like: Nada, july, iloveoov, boxer, savior, etc. | ||
|
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On October 12 2008 12:27 CDRdude wrote: But it's not all about the results. It's about who is the strongest at a given point in time. Sure, results are a good way of measuring that, but if it was all about results, the power rank is going to look like: Nada, july, iloveoov, boxer, savior, etc. Monthly results. We can't for sure determine who is better than who. Shit happens, things change. Hence we need to base the MONTHLY rankings on MONTHLY relative performances. | ||
|
Februarys
Korea (South)259 Posts
On October 12 2008 12:17 OneOther wrote: Your reasoning is so fucking awful I almost considered not wasting my time arguing against, but I will do it anyway. So, you are basically saying that Jaedong should be placed above Stork regardless how they are performing in individual leagues because he won the last time they played? Stork is in the semifinals of OSL, buddy. Following your logic, Frozean should be placed above Jaedong since the last two games they played it was a complete one-sided rape. Oh yeah, and forGG should definitely be above JD as well. Remember the 3-0 assrape? Yeah. forGG>Jaedong, clearly. Guys, this power rank should be solely based on performance, not who we think can beat who. Sure, JD has done well against Stork in the past, but that doesn't mean we can just ignore their performances in the leagues. We never know what's going to happen. Therefore, we need to base the rankings on relative performances. We can't say Flash would beat Stork in a BO5, either. Flash isn't playing at his best, while Stork clearly is. Just because Flash has beaten him the past two finals, can we make an assumption that results would be the same? Definitely not. Stork has beaten him 3-0 before, too. Power Ranking = Monthly Performance On October 12 2008 07:24 Februarys wrote: Just because Jaedong did not have many chances to play as much games as Stork to prove himself, does not mean he should go lower in ranking. Isn't PR always about who is the top 10 strongest at the current month by their performances up to that month, instead of who simply had the best performance this month Like I said earlier: So by this reasoning, Stork should not be placed above Jaedong, especially because the last time Jaedong met Stork, JD stomped all over him. Yes, Power rank = monthly performance. But not solely on how well you performed on the month alone. If we go by your logic, its possible to place Rock above Jaedong based on my example in the quote. Thats why, on the contrary, your reasoning is the very awful one | ||
|
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On October 12 2008 13:16 Februarys wrote: Yes, Power rank = monthly performance. But not solely on how well you performed on the month alone. If we go by your logic, its possible to place Rock above Jaedong based on my example in the quote. Thats why, on the contrary, your reasoning is the very awful one Evaluating monthly performances is not a blind process. We need to look at the quality of opponents and the games the players faced. Of course, if Jaedong lost to Flash while Rock beat Backho and Tossgirl, then yeah, there's no reason to put Rock above Jaedong. That's why I called it "relative performance." We look at the results in a bigger context. If Rock beat quality opponents and performed well in tournaments while Jaedong failed to do so, he should absolutely be placed ahead of Jaedong for that month. Your reasoning, on the other hand, is incredibly shitty. Wanna explain why Jaedong should be ahead of forGG? I mean, forGG completely rapes Jaedong, right? | ||
|
Avidkeystamper
United States8551 Posts
Stork, while being a great player, has been presented with many opportunities but has failed to convert any of them into a Championship. Once again, he has appeared in the late stages of a Starleague. However, it's too early to judge if Stork can overcome his mental barrier of 2nd places or if it's just more silver for his collection. Stork has not proven anything we haven't know before, and the last times he's been in similar situations, he's faltered, while Jaedong has shown he can go the distance. Also, Jaedong would beat Stork since he's so godly at ZvP though that's not nearly as relevant. In summary, both of them have been in similar positions in the past, while Jaedong has delivered and Stork has not. If Stork wins the OSL or MSL, or even both (HOLY CRAP), then he undeniably deserves 1st, unless he totally craps it up in Proleague. Until then, this isn't anything new he's showing. Edit: Is there a PR coming out this month, when if so, and who's gonna write it? | ||
|
TheTyranid
Russian Federation4333 Posts
But lets look at their performances for september anyway. Stork 3-0. A lucky cheese against Sea. Lucky because Sea was inches away form seeing and scouting it. A failed cheese by Fantasy. A close win over Backho where Stork was sloppy and on several occasions had his probes slaughtered by reavers. Jaedong 2-1. An amazing 1 hatch muta comeback from a bunkerrush that killed his nat. Gogo did play like shit after the rush however. A loss to Frozean who crippled him with cheese as well. A 9 pool win over Upmagic who couldn't seal off the zerglings. That is their preformances for the month of september. I will agree that Stork preformed slightly better since the game quality was about even. We must though consider other factors: Their overall strength. Future potential - based on how well they usually preform in leagues and which opponents they will be facing. Number of leagues they are in. Jaedong is definitely stronger overall than Stork. He has 2 dominating and 1 slumped matchup. Stork has the same however his vT and vP are not stronger than Jaedong's vZ and vP. Of course Stork's PvZ is nowhere near Jaedong's ZvT. In addition Jaedong would shitrape Stork in any best of sets if they would meet right now. In terms of their potential, Jaedong has the clear advantage. He faces free in the ro16 whom he will rape. Stork faces ForGG who will be the underdog, however his chances of advancing are not as good as Jaedong's. In the OSL Stork faces Best. I think it's safe to say that Best will win that series. After seeing the games against Backho and Bisu I do not think Stork's PvP is good enough to beat Best's. The only big advantage Stork has is being in both leagues. Once again, however, his chances in the OSL are not that great. | ||
|
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
See, that's where the problem lies. I disagree with you on almost everything you said. You find everything negative about Stork's games while managing to find the bright side on Jaedong's. Not fair. How about that stupid, final game vs Upmagic where Jaedong won with his speedlings, huh? Furthermore, I do not think Jaedong is overall stronger than Stork. Stork is the best player at PvT, and best at PvP right along with Best. I also believe his PvZ is highly underrated. True, Jaedong's ZvT is better than Stork's PvZ, but that doesn't help your argument. It all depends on perspectives. Stork's strongest matchup, PvT, will help much more in the upcoming rounds of MSL than Jaedong's strongest, ZvZ, will. I do not see how you can say Jaedong has more potential than Stork right now. Stork is in the semifinals of OSL, give me a fucking break. And I consider myself a qualified Protoss player who knows enough about the matchup of PvP to judge that Stork verses Best will be a toss-up. Best is definitely not favored in the match; it's dead even. How much do you know about PvP? I am guessing not too much, considering you think it will be a free win for Best. Stork's latest PvPs have been truly impressing. Like I said, Jaedong does not have more potential to win when the other guy is already in the semis. Lastly, I think that forGG's chance against Stork is about equal to Free's chances against Jaedong. They are both pretty big underdogs. The big advantage is that Stork is in semifinals, and has a fair chance of winning it. Jaedong? He got eliminated a long time ago. This alone is enough to qualify Stork as #1. | ||
|
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
 how about that, it`s the september power rank. in september bisu were in both leagues, and JD was only in MSL should bisu be put above JD ? -no "quality of opponents" JD was RUSHED by frozean...everyone could win with rush. JD was faaaaar behind after frozean denied his nat. He only won vs go.go because gogo sucks. If stork would FE against someone who would rush him...what would be the result ? everyone loses from time to time...no matter how gosu they are | ||
|
TheTyranid
Russian Federation4333 Posts
On October 12 2008 15:31 OneOther wrote: I do, however, believe that it should be based solely on relative monthly performance. Opinion noted but that is not the way the PR works. On October 12 2008 15:31 OneOther wrote: See, that's where the problem lies. I disagree with you on almost everything you said. You find everything negative about Stork's games while managing to find the bright side on Jaedong's. Not fair. How about that stupid, final game vs Upmagic where Jaedong won with his speedlings, huh? Maybe my wording was biased but please read: On October 12 2008 14:12 TheTyranid wrote: That is their preformances for the month of september. I will agree that Stork preformed slightly better since the game quality was about even. considering you think it will be a free win for Best. The hell? I did not say it would be a "free win" for Best, I just said he is the clear favourite. Please agree that Stork played a close series with Bisu where he has made mistakes that Best would not forgive. On October 12 2008 15:31 OneOther wrote: I think that forGG's chance against Stork is about equal to Free's chances against Jaedong. They are both pretty big underdogs. Seriously? You think Free has as much chance against Jaedong as ForGG against Stork? I'm not even arguing this point. Your argument is valid even though you are biased toward Stork, however, this argument is similar to the argument people had for Best being #1 when he was raping EVER OSL and summer Proleague. It was the month of june I think. Best had a better record that month than both Jaedong and Flash and people said that since he was on a sharp rise he should be above JD and Flash. He had afterall a better month. The other side argued that Best was inexperienced and his chances of failing was higher then that of Jaedong. Also Jaedong was the overall stronger player. Here we have a similar situation. Stork is on the sharp rise and has a better month than Jaedong. However history tells us that Stork's dominant run will be cut short by a choke in the latter stages of the tournament whereas Jaedong will emerge the champion. This is why Jaedong has more potential than Stork. This month Jaedong should still be #1. Stork and Best will complete the top 3. Next month the OSL and MSL will progress and a more clear picture will be drawn for us. If Stork clearly plays better than Jaedong in october as well I will concede my argument. | ||
|
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
| ||
|
traced
1739 Posts
fact is, jaedong is probably around an 80% vZ, 75% vP, and his vT is probably around 60%, slightly lower than his 61.6% lifetime. Stork, though strong, is nowhere near the autowin in vZ or vP, and though his vT is exceptional, he probably doesn't even have that large of an edge over jaedong in the matchup at 65.5% lifetime himself. second when you look at player versus player matchups, jaedong is likely a favorite against every single player in the world including stork (except possibly forGG), whereas Stork cannot be considered a favorite over Jaedong or Best. i don't think there is any way to put stork over jaedong in the power rank unless jaedong slumps, or stork is able to beat jaedong in a series. | ||
|
Jaeden
Romania1489 Posts
On October 12 2008 17:48 traced wrote: second when you look at player versus player matchups, jaedong is likely a favorite against every single player in the world including stork (except possibly forGG), whereas Stork cannot be considered a favorite over Jaedong or Best. exactly, and imo, July would also be a favorite in a match against stork. In fact, any Z with a strong ZvP could beat stork. | ||
disciple
9069 Posts
 JD will keep his #1 just because we accept his skills as superior and because of that any theories about how could beat any other hot player below him become suddenly a fact. If you isolate the fact that JD is .. JD and take a look at his performance as a guy who is not in the OSL and managed to advance from his MSL group by 2-1. Well if you take the legend killer this way, fuck you very much but wont even deserve to be in the PR. Some seasons ago when JangBi reached the SEMIFINAL of MSL he was NOT in the PR in the month he did it. So basically what I wanna say is that JD as number 1 is completely ruining the idea of the monthly PR. But as champ he deserves sucha credit, PR actually doesnt mean anything to him, all other guys can work their ass, be in beastly winning streak , but he will keep his top spot with his 4-3 or whatsoever record this month | ||
|
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
Favorites in player verses player matchups...I have been talking about the flaws in that method for a while now. i don't think there is any way to put stork over jaedong in the power rank unless jaedong slumps, or stork is able to beat jaedong in a series. Are you a mindless Jaedong fanboy or just...dumb? Are you actually saying that Jaedong should be #1 even if Stork beats BeSt and goes on to win the OSL? Here's a nice example. Let's just imagine that we were doing a power ranking for NBA. Portland Blazers just won the championship. On the other hand, the Boston Celtics, who have been ranked #1 throughout the entire regular season, got eliminated in the earlier playoff rounds by some other team. Don't you agree that the Blazers should be #1 on the Power Ranking? | ||
|
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On October 12 2008 18:10 Jaeden wrote: exactly, and imo, July would also be a favorite in a match against stork. In fact, any Z with a strong ZvP could beat stork. That's ridiculous. This is a monthly Power Rankings, not "speculate who is favored over who." The power ranking would look absolutely fucked up if we took all those "favorites" into account. Are you actually saying that forGG should be placed at #1 above Jaedong and Stork because he manhandled Jaedong? Because I would speculate that he IS, after all, a favorite against Jaedong. Performance, please. EDIT: Good post, disciple. | ||
| ||
