EPTPower Rank 06/02/2011 - Page 27
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Hrrrm. Flash, JD, Hydra, Bisu, Jangbi are all definitely on even if they fuck up D- level for whatever is left of the month. Movie, Horang2, Zero, Light all deserve a spot methinks. Maaaaybe Soulkey. Soo might squeeze in to #10, possibly knocking Soulkey down to CBNC. Problem with Soo is he's been pretty much riding one match-up only. He'll at least get CBNC, but I don't really see him getting past #10 on PR. Best might still eek into CBNC, but I think his PR shot is finished. Sea will deserve a CBNC if he passes his ODT group. Bogus deserves a CBNC methinks. Would have said Mind if he had survived his ODT group. FBH could still be put CBNC maaaaaaybe. But I feel like that's stretching it. CBNC is really for people who arguably deserve a PR spot and by arguably I don't mean "1 or 2 people think he deserves it." He's still looking good, but he's losing a bit of steam. A win over an SKT1 player in the PL match on the 29th would secure a CBNC minimum depending on who he beats. A loss would knock him out of the running. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Don't forget that Soo also kicked ass in May, so it's not too sudden a thing. He is nearly perfect in ZvP for a couple months and he is perfect in ZvZ, even if only 3 games. His ZvT is unproven, but he proved his worth by defeating Mind when it mattered the most and advancing to the Ro16. | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
If he went 2-1 against Hyvaa instead of 1-2 he would be undeniably 1st place, yet let's drop him down to p4 (or 5, lol Jangbi) because of that or because the games had "OSL" in the title? He has not lost to anybody playing badly or due to bad play. Hyvaa and Roro both played great Starcraft to beat Bisu. Pushing wins and losses aside his actual play is great. Hi Hiya. His record is better than Flash, JD and Hydra this month whether you include OSL Prelims or not and unlike JD he actually has a good record in more than one MU. Elo #1. Peaking in his 'bad' MU. One loss sitting on consecutive peaks in his good MU. The best evidence he is powerful is that this is not a streak. WL 30-10 (75%). PL 34-5 (87%) (!!?) That is not doing well. Those are not the kind of numbers you can push aside and say "Eh, he does well in PL but can't qualify for OSL". To do so is such a shallow or disingenuous summary. | ||
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bearbuddy
3442 Posts
On a more serious note, I actually have no problem putting Bisu second. I feel that Jaedong and Bisu are interchangeable at 2 and 3. Yes, Jaedong does have a worse record and is coming out of his worst losing streak, but he's now on 7 game win streak against quality opponents, including Flash twice, as shown HERE. While Bisu's list of opponent isn't exactly too intimidating, as shown HERE. Bisu is having a monstrous pro-league season for sure, but greatness is not measured by a team-event but by individual achievements. For every Elo-peaking win from the proleague, there's also the lingering notion that Bisu hasn't gotten remotely close to competing for a title in a long time... or winning a BoX against a competent opponent, for that matter. | ||
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zlosynus
Czech Republic339 Posts
On June 28 2011 15:52 Lachrymose wrote: If he went 2-1 against Hyvaa instead of 1-2 he would be undeniably 1st place, ... Actually no, in such a case Flash would still win MSL and Bisu would be just in Ro24 of OSL. In such a case, Bisu would deserve to be #2 and JD #3. But it didn't happened ... Bisu is playing very good this year, but he is playing just in PL, without having to split his practice time to SLs. Also, it seems for him to be much easier to play against unknown opponent than in SL where the opponent is pre-determined. I think #3 is very good for someone who is just playing PL. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On June 28 2011 17:13 bearbuddy wrote: Yeah sure, Flash just won an MSL and received his golden badge this month (going for a combined 6-0 in semi-final and final). Surely Bisu would be the undeniable first place if he managed to pass the ODT prelim! On a more serious note, I actually have no problem putting Bisu second. I feel that Jaedong and Bisu are interchangeable at 2 and 3. Yes, Jaedong does have a worse record and is coming out of his worst losing streak, but he's now on 7 game win streak against quality opponents, including Flash twice, as shown HERE. While Bisu's list of opponent isn't exactly too intimidating, as shown HERE. Bisu is having a monstrous pro-league season for sure, but greatness is not measured by a team-event but by individual achievements. For every Elo-peaking win from the proleague, there's also the lingering notion that Bisu hasn't gotten remotely close to competing for a title in a long time... or winning a BoX against a competent opponent, for that matter. Yup I agree. I also didn't notice the quality of player difference for both lol. I feel jaedong definitely deserves second on this PR. I can agree with flash staying #1 due to crushing the MSL semi's and finals as I honestly thought Zero would beat him or it would be a close 3-2. Was so shocked to see a 3-0. I do not feel bisu deserves it. I don't care how strong his proleague record his. for someone who's supposed to have amazing pvz and to lose in a bo3 to hyvaa in the OSl prelims to fail to qualify just doesn't deserve 2nd to me. Bisu has been failing in leagues forever. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On June 28 2011 15:52 Lachrymose wrote: It seems like "Doing well in PL" or equivalent is turning into some sort of buzz phrase that you can use to simplify Bisu's record down and dismiss it, without outright ignoring it but without giving any credit to what it actually is. If he went 2-1 against Hyvaa instead of 1-2 he would be undeniably 1st place, yet let's drop him down to p4 (or 5, lol Jangbi) because of that or because the games had "OSL" in the title? He has not lost to anybody playing badly or due to bad play. Hyvaa and Roro both played great Starcraft to beat Bisu. Pushing wins and losses aside his actual play is great. Hi Hiya. His record is better than Flash, JD and Hydra this month whether you include OSL Prelims or not and unlike JD he actually has a good record in more than one MU. Elo #1. Peaking in his 'bad' MU. One loss sitting on consecutive peaks in his good MU. The best evidence he is powerful is that this is not a streak. WL 30-10 (75%). PL 34-5 (87%) (!!?) That is not doing well. Those are not the kind of numbers you can push aside and say "Eh, he does well in PL but can't qualify for OSL". To do so is such a shallow or disingenuous summary. On the other hand, he is out of OSL and has to drag himself from MST. It's easy to be great at PL when you've had nothing else to do, this is the reason Flash was rarely if ever the #1 player for almost 2 years because he constantly failed in tournaments despite being clearly the best PL player. The difference is, Flash atleast qualified for the tournament before getting knocked out. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On June 28 2011 17:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: On the other hand, he is out of OSL and has to drag himself from MST. It's easy to be great at PL when you've had nothing else to do, this is the reason Flash was rarely if ever the #1 player for almost 2 years because he constantly failed in tournaments despite being clearly the best PL player. The difference is, Flash atleast qualified for the tournament before getting knocked out. Jaedong then was more dominant than Jaedong now. There was no Flash back then, although the Flash now wont join the PR for a while after this month, probably. Flash wasnt as much a PL monster is Bisu is right now. I agree with the guy above. Rather than looking at the record, we should also look at the quality of games. If he failed like Fanta did vs Mind, nvm putting him anywhere in top 3. But those 3 games were all well-played. Losing 1-2 to a Zerg that played brilliantly is something anyone would do. Wiping all other achievement in the light of "pff he lost a (few) games" without bothering to look into the actual game is either just being plain lazy or outright biased, imho. Jaedong looked bad at the beginning of the month, Flash did at the end due to his lack of practice. Those contenders for no.1 place has some major glaring faults too, imho. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
I think rather well of Bisu, and think he deserves more slack than most PL monsters of the past(Leta, Flash of yesteryear, Sea, etc.) But losing to hyvaa in the prelims should get no credit regardless of what happened. | ||
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DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
The MSL finals and a golden badge are a great achievement, no doubt, however games are games. Zero, for instance, rolled over and died. Just because Flash won a golden badge for it doesn't mean it makes him look like the most powerful player on earth. I'm not saying it doesn't either, but when somebody like Luxury wins an MSL they don't make PR#1 because they're not that good. Flash followed up his MSL victory with losing a whole bunch then going on break. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence that he is the most powerful player. Still, I'm not saying he isn't, but this is more because nobody did anything good enough to displace him than him looking untouchable. As for the rest: "It's just PL, who cares" If it were so easy why doesn't everybody dominate? And why do we weigh consistant play over the course of dozens of games against random opponents less than 1-3 games against prepared snipers? Is Starcraft somehow more 'pure' when you replace robust play with targetted play? I seem to remember when Flash failed in tournaments it was because he had to carry in PL. Bisu does great in PL and it is because he failed in tournaments. Flash only fails because of his success. Bisu only succeeds because of his failure. Seems fair. "His PvZ is supposed to be great but he lost to Hyvaa so he auto-sucks" Also known as the "I don't know anything about PvZ" argument, supplimented with a health dose of "I didn't watch the game and I think Hyvaa is bad so he must have played bad". and "He is out of OSL and lost in MSL groups" Well yeah, I realise that, which is the very same simplification which was the whole point of my post. He is out of the OSL because he lost 1-2 to Hyvaa. Hyvaa played great. Losing to somebody because they played great isn't that bad and doesn't make you look weak. It doesn't matter when or where the game was. He is in MST because he lost 0-2 to Flash. It's God. Damn. Flash. Nobody is focusing on the Starcraft he actually plays - just "He is out of leagues. Don't care why. Don't care what else he is doing". | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
To win a finals, you have to 1. Win in the prelims(or have done so in the past and then play well enough to stay out of it) 2. Win in the MST/MSL Group Stage/ODT 3. Win in the Ro16 4. Win in the Ro8 5 .Win in the Ro4 6. Win in the Finals Any title win is an achievement that is the culmination of all the previous achievements. You must have overcome all the obstacles beforehand to even reach it. To say it's okay to fail at stage #1 and undersell a Finals win is utter BS. | ||
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Zhul
Czech Republic430 Posts
On June 28 2011 15:35 Crisium wrote: Don't forget that Soo also kicked ass in May, so it's not too sudden a thing. He is nearly perfect in ZvP for a couple months and he is perfect in ZvZ, even if only 3 games. His ZvT is unproven, but he proved his worth by defeating Mind when it mattered the most and advancing to the Ro8. 16 | ||
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johanes
Czech Republic2246 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
 Bisu beat  hyvaa then he may still have not advanced as he lost in the semi finals of his prelim group.JangBi has had a pretty awesome proleague month and advanced from the prelims via that brutal wildcard, advanced from his ODT group 2-0 and is now in the OSL proper =]. YellOw has also decreed that as a reward for JangBi's loyalty to the kong line the upcoming OSL is his for the taking.HAIL THE ALMIGHTY. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On June 28 2011 21:17 johanes wrote: God, this reminds me of JWD's PR when flash won GOM with losing ONE game during the whole tournament and still he wasn't on the PR at all. If Golden Badge and the best career record ever doesn't qualify you for nr. 1, i don't know what does. SKT fans should be rational and not shout Bisu bonjwa during every relatively short winning streak (Flash had much better many times...). Kindly enlighten me as to what is your point. I dont see anyone arguing that Flash should not be number 1, i dont see anyone arguing that Bisu is number 1 either (clearly i dont mind that he is :p but...) I will still reply to them, for argument's sake. 1/ Career records are hardly relevant as far as PR is concerned, i believe.. Or else Oov Nada, Savior would still be up there, and never a rookie. While they can be taken into consideration (like JD's case last month, aka giving him the benefit of the doubt), its mostly a player's recent record that is looked into. 2/ That "relatively short winning streak" you are talking about involves setting a new record for Most-wins achieved in a SPL season ever, nabbing the Most Win King title of the season in the process. >80% win-rate over the whole season. I maintain that we should look at how the player in question played his game too, outside of the simple win/lose result. Other arguing points have already been mentioned in my previous post, so i wont repeat them. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On June 28 2011 19:33 ffreakk wrote: Jaedong then was more dominant than Jaedong now. There was no Flash back then, although the Flash now wont join the PR for a while after this month, probably. Flash wasnt as much a PL monster is Bisu is right now. I agree with the guy above. Rather than looking at the record, we should also look at the quality of games. If he failed like Fanta did vs Mind, nvm putting him anywhere in top 3. But those 3 games were all well-played. Losing 1-2 to a Zerg that played brilliantly is something anyone would do. Wiping all other achievement in the light of "pff he lost a (few) games" without bothering to look into the actual game is either just being plain lazy or outright biased, imho. Jaedong looked bad at the beginning of the month, Flash did at the end due to his lack of practice. Those contenders for no.1 place has some major glaring faults too, imho. What are you even saying? There was no Flash back then, what? Do you seriously understand what you just said? Flash won't join the PR this month when he's the shoe-in #1? Flash has won more titles this month than Bisu has in three years, and did so by 6-0ing his competition. Bisu could go undefeated in PL and it wouldn't make up for not showing up in either tournament. I don't care how good the games were, we all hold Bisu to a standard of being clearly and absolutely better than every single player in those prelims, in every one of his matchups. Hyvaa having a good day is a good excuse for dropping a PL game, not for dropping a best of 3 to even attempt to get into the tournament that gets you into the OSL. It's a disgrace for him, good games or not. And I watched the games -- Hyvaa played a little cheesey and followed it up with good macro games. That's cool, great on him for playing well. Bisu should play better if he wants to be held in the same breath as Flash and Jaedong. On June 28 2011 20:32 Lachrymose wrote: Ah okay, so it doesn't matter how well somebody is playing or how many games they win. All that matters is achievements. The MSL finals and a golden badge are a great achievement, no doubt, however games are games. Zero, for instance, rolled over and died. Just because Flash won a golden badge for it doesn't mean it makes him look like the most powerful player on earth. I'm not saying it doesn't either, but when somebody like Luxury wins an MSL they don't make PR#1 because they're not that good. Are you kidding me? Luxury shot straight up to #2 for winning the MSL, and the only reason he didn't get #1 is because Jaedong won the OSL. The same goes for Calm, the only reason he wasn't #1 was because Jaedong was the OSL champ. You want another example? Guess a player who's only won 1 msl, and crushed his competition, and shot up to #1 on the PR for one month before never coming back? ForGG! The precedent applies as much as it doesn't, and we don't have a recent OSL Champ to knock Flash off his perch (because Fantasy is slumping about as hard as flash). "It's just PL, who cares" If it were so easy why doesn't everybody dominate?And why do we weigh consistant play over the course of dozens of games against random opponents less than 1-3 games against prepared snipers? Is Starcraft somehow more 'pure' when you replace robust play with targetted play? I seem to remember when Flash failed in tournaments it was because he had to carry in PL. Bisu does great in PL and it is because he failed in tournaments. Flash only fails because of his success. Bisu only succeeds because of his failure. Seems fair. They show up to play in individual leagues. Bisu's still an S-class gamer, but failing in individual leagues gives you plenty of time to focus on PL. It's not like he had to worry about ODTs vs Jaedong or Flash, you know, like Jaedong and Flash. Bisu may very well fail in tournaments because he's practicing too much for PL, like Flash did in times past. That's why Flash wasn't #1 on the PR and is a perfect reason why Bisu shouldn't be. Also, Flash never failed in qualifiers, for what's it's worth, and still wasn't #1, and it's not like he lost to people who played poorly, either. Typically to beat Flash, JD or Bisu you have to play well, that doesn't mean they still shouldn't win, be expected to win, and shouldn't be lessened for losing. He is in MST because he lost 0-2 to Flash. It's God. Damn. Flash. This sounds like a pretty good reason to not put him #1, when your excuse is "Well this guy who just won a title stopped him from doing well last MSL!" On June 28 2011 22:50 ffreakk wrote: 2/ That "relatively short winning streak" you are talking about involves setting a new record for Most-wins achieved in a SPL season ever, nabbing the Most Win King title of the season in the process. >80% win-rate over the whole season. I have a feeling this record will be broken next year if we keep the double WL format. It's a win sieve. | ||
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
But seriously, should we consider the games in individual leagues and PL the same? How much weight does each game carry? Is a league title really worth 500 freaking points? As I've said before, I carry a lot more weight on the individual leagues when I think about my own personal power rank. Bisu hasn't done ANYTHING in OSL or MSL since... Avalon MSL, the last time he had a seed a league. You may say Stork then Flash, but that's how the cards fell, and Taekshin didn't show up those days. tl;dr Individual leagues matter a lot more than you think, Bisu. | ||
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