Fantasy Fantasy is one of two people other than the ten listed that I would consider putting on PR. With a decently tough month, Fantasy has pulled some good wins, and his losses haven't been too bad.
Light Light is invisible. His matches haven't been very significant in the overall scheme of things, and he was eliminated from the MSL by Mind after winning the first game in a very entertaining fashion. Still, he's winning--and a win is a win, no matter how you look at it.
Shoutouts
Kwanro I know it's a month overdue, but I'd like to let Kwanro know that he will be missed.
HoeJJa Has some wins on Proleague under his belt now! And played a pretty good game against Stork as well.
also that sentence about flash "Flash seems just the slightest tad sloppy--but obviously that isn't enough to stop his opponents." seems like it would make sense "that isn't enough to stop him" not his opponents, unless i'm mis-interpreting it
Also Movie's write up is in FBH's box for some reason. I can agree with this PR, Zero making it through those ZvZ matches were great, now he needs to take out god to make it to PR spot number 1 (Poor Bisu though, no games to play, wish he's move up in the Kespa ranking as well)
I dont think I can get behind Soulkey above JD, or even above Hydra. The majority of his competition in proleague just wasn't spectacular besides like Stats and JD. I would fully bet that Soulkey woulda gotten 3-0d by Flash too, in equal fashion. Otherwise good list.
On June 02 2011 22:59 Kiante wrote: you repeated the #10 comment in the #9 box.
also zero above bisu? i'll never forgive you
also that sentence about flash "Flash seems just the slightest tad sloppy--but obviously that isn't enough to stop his opponents." seems like it would make sense "that isn't enough to stop him" not his opponents, unless i'm mis-interpreting it
I guess we are just ignoring zero's losses for the month? I don't know how you can play up his consistency while losing to jaehoon, soo and action among others.
Good and not suprising PR this month, at least the top 3. I have not expected SK this high and Horang2 this low. I like JD a lot but maybe I had put him even more lower to put Horang2 higher.
On June 02 2011 23:33 hacklebeast wrote: I guess we are just ignoring zero's losses for the month? I don't know how you can play up his consistency while losing to jaehoon, soo and action among others.
read bearbuddy's linked blog post, zero is consistently average, this season he just knows where to put his losses.
On June 02 2011 23:33 hacklebeast wrote: I guess we are just ignoring zero's losses for the month? I don't know how you can play up his consistency while losing to jaehoon, soo and action among others.
I guess you're just ignoring Bisu's loss to Zero, which was included in last month's PR, the same as Zero's loss to Jaehoon? If we analyse it further, Zero has lost 1 ZvZ in PL since the last PR, Bisu has lost 1 PvP in PL. Factor in the MSL and Zero definitely belongs at #2.
On June 02 2011 23:33 hacklebeast wrote: I guess we are just ignoring zero's losses for the month? I don't know how you can play up his consistency while losing to jaehoon, soo and action among others.
I guess you're just ignoring Bisu's loss to Zero, which was included in last month's PR, the same as Zero's loss to Jaehoon? If we analyse it further, Zero has lost 1 ZvZ in PL since the last PR, Bisu has lost 1 PvP in PL. Factor in the MSL and Zero definitely belongs at #2.
Bisu losing to the best zerg and the best PvP player is different than Jaehoon and action. There is an argument as to why zero should be #2, but consistancy isn't it.
Awesome PR :D . I guess a golden age for me would be: 1. ZerO 2. Neo.G_Bonjwa 3. JD, very unlikely to happen any time soon though lawl
Edit: Also @ "who else believed in ZerO besides Realpenguin, bearbuddy, and swanized" people who have LB'd him through this entire MSL of course , and any of his other past indiv. league runs.(Myself included amongst those people :3) And didn't bearbuddy change his team icon for awhile! Traitor!! Lawl jk
On June 03 2011 04:30 Doughboy wrote: Awesome PR :D . I guess a golden age for me would be: 1. ZerO 2. Neo.G_Bonjwa 3. JD, very unlikely to happen any time soon though lawl
Edit: Also @ "who else believed in ZerO besides Realpenguin, bearbuddy, and swanized" people who have LB'd him through this entire MSL of course , and any of his other past indiv. league runs.(Myself included amongst those people :3) And didn't bearbuddy change his team icon for awhile! Traitor!! Lawl jk
I wish it was 2010 all over again, alas Flash himself knows he can't continue like this for a long period of time. Even if he wins this msl it will be bittersweet.
On June 03 2011 04:30 Doughboy wrote: Awesome PR :D . I guess a golden age for me would be: 1. ZerO 2. Neo.G_Bonjwa 3. JD, very unlikely to happen any time soon though lawl
Edit: Also @ "who else believed in ZerO besides Realpenguin, bearbuddy, and swanized" people who have LB'd him through this entire MSL of course , and any of his other past indiv. league runs.(Myself included amongst those people :3) And didn't bearbuddy change his team icon for awhile! Traitor!! Lawl jk
I did? News to me. =P
Which Icon did you think I changed to, anyway?
I can't remember, I could've swore it wasn't stars at one point though D: . When I first saw it, I was like "oh I just got him confused with DropBear har har har" but then I doubletaked. It might've been stx or ace? Maybe you're right and you never switched and I'm either on drugs or had a dream about TL lololol.
On June 03 2011 04:30 Doughboy wrote: Awesome PR :D . I guess a golden age for me would be: 1. ZerO 2. Neo.G_Bonjwa 3. JD, very unlikely to happen any time soon though lawl
Edit: Also @ "who else believed in ZerO besides Realpenguin, bearbuddy, and swanized" people who have LB'd him through this entire MSL of course , and any of his other past indiv. league runs.(Myself included amongst those people :3) And didn't bearbuddy change his team icon for awhile! Traitor!! Lawl jk
I did? News to me. =P
Which Icon did you think I changed to, anyway?
I can't remember, I could've swore it wasn't stars at one point though D: . When I first saw it, I was like "oh I just got him confused with DropBear har har har" but then I doubletaked. It might've been stx or ace? Maybe you're right and you never switched and I'm either on drugs or had a dream about TL lololol.
Putting Jaedong at #5 is a bit too much of an overkill. Yes he lost to Zero, but as you mentioned, it was due to Zero's skill rather than Jaedong's lack of skill. I love it how Jaedong drops 4 ranks at the touch of a button while Flash generally gets a reprieve for his poor play. Jaedong faced a much more powerful zerg as well and luck played against him. In game 4, i think 2-3 seconds would have made the difference between victory and loss, while no one can commend Flash for game 2 even if he won because of his sloppy, careless loss of dropships.
And the Power rank is not about performance for any single month. It represents the most threatening players overall.
The question is, would anyone rather face Jaedong than Soulkey or even Bisu? I think most progamers would much rather play any of the rank 2-4 than Jaedong. IMO, one month shouldnt make it or break it
On June 03 2011 06:30 WaterTower wrote: Putting Jaedong at #5 is a bit too much of an overkill. Yes he lost to Zero, but as you mentioned, it was due to Zero's skill rather than Jaedong's lack of skill. I love it how Jaedong drops 4 ranks at the touch of a button while Flash generally gets a reprieve for his poor play. Jaedong faced a much more powerful zerg as well and luck played against him. In game 3, i think 2-3 seconds would have made the difference between victory and loss, while no one can commend Flash for game 2 even if he won because of his sloppy, careless loss of dropships.
And the Power rank is not about performance for any single month. It represents the most threatening players overall.
The question is, would anyone rather face Jaedong than Soulkey or even Bisu? I think most progamers, if forced to win, would much rather play any of the rank 2-4 than Jaedong. IMO, one month shouldnt make it or break it
1-Flash 2-Jaedong 3-Zero 4-Bisu 5-Soulkey
The rest are really not all that impressive
Flash gets dropped all the time for poor play. It's only when there's not much data to prove that someone else deserves a better spot that he gets placed high by default. Check the last few power ranks for proof.
On June 03 2011 06:30 WaterTower wrote: 1-Flash 2-Jaedong 3-Zero 4-Bisu 5-Soulkey
Zero is in the MSL finals AND showed good proleague play. JD got knocked out of the MSL BY Zero, and had a terrible proleague month. No way should JD be above zero.
Like I said, one month shouldn't make or break a player. Jaedong has won more games than any other progamer in the history of SC and has the second highest winning percentage of all time.
You mean like how when Flash still had a good proleague month, but dropped out of the leagues and got tossed in #5 PR? was he no longer feared as a player? it happens, get over it.
On June 03 2011 06:30 WaterTower wrote: Putting Jaedong at #5 is a bit too much of an overkill. Yes he lost to Zero, but as you mentioned, it was due to Zero's skill rather than Jaedong's lack of skill. I love it how Jaedong drops 4 ranks at the touch of a button while Flash generally gets a reprieve for his poor play. Jaedong faced a much more powerful zerg as well and luck played against him. In game 4, i think 2-3 seconds would have made the difference between victory and loss, while no one can commend Flash for game 2 even if he won because of his sloppy, careless loss of dropships.
And the Power rank is not about performance for any single month. It represents the most threatening players overall.
The question is, would anyone rather face Jaedong than Soulkey or even Bisu? I think most progamers would much rather play any of the rank 2-4 than Jaedong. IMO, one month shouldnt make it or break it
1-Flash 2-Jaedong 3-Zero 4-Bisu 5-Soulkey
The rest are really not all that impressive
other than his zvt, jaedong has not been that good and zero, soulkey and bisu have been doing way better
On June 03 2011 08:32 Gnaix wrote: couldn't this power rank be posted a bit later to avoid spoiling the MSL results?
Its not like you have to look at it...
In Gnaix's defense, the PR is visible on any page of the site, seeing Flash at #1 and Hydra at #6 pretty much tells you how things ended, even without opening the PR.
On June 03 2011 08:32 Gnaix wrote: couldn't this power rank be posted a bit later to avoid spoiling the MSL results?
Its not like you have to look at it...
In Gnaix's defense, the PR is visible on any page of the site, seeing Flash at #1 and Hydra at #6 pretty much tells you how things ended, even without opening the PR.
That's why went I went on here to download the games, I blocked off the rest of the screen so I couldn't see anything else.
On June 03 2011 06:19 Holgerius wrote: Flash at #1 in all ELO categories, Kespa rank, PR and in a Starleague final. The God-era is about to begin all over again. :D
Also, yay FBH! ^__^ And yay Zero! And nooooooo JD.
On June 03 2011 06:30 WaterTower wrote: Putting Jaedong at #5 is a bit too much of an overkill. Yes he lost to Zero, but as you mentioned, it was due to Zero's skill rather than Jaedong's lack of skill. I love it how Jaedong drops 4 ranks at the touch of a button while Flash generally gets a reprieve for his poor play. Jaedong faced a much more powerful zerg as well and luck played against him. In game 4, i think 2-3 seconds would have made the difference between victory and loss, while no one can commend Flash for game 2 even if he won because of his sloppy, careless loss of dropships.
And the Power rank is not about performance for any single month. It represents the most threatening players overall.
The question is, would anyone rather face Jaedong than Soulkey or even Bisu? I think most progamers would much rather play any of the rank 2-4 than Jaedong. IMO, one month shouldnt make it or break it
1-Flash 2-Jaedong 3-Zero 4-Bisu 5-Soulkey
The rest are really not all that impressive
And how can you honestly say Jaedong has been threatening in the last month? He himself has said that his performance in the last month has been poor
On June 03 2011 12:15 Mortician wrote: What does TBLS mean?
TaekBangLeeSang
The Taek is from Bisu's name, Kim Taek Yong, the Bang is from Stork's Korean nickname, and LeeSang means Two Lees iirc, referring to Lee Jae Dong (Jaedong) and Lee Young Ho (Flash).
On June 03 2011 12:15 Mortician wrote: What does TBLS mean?
TaekBangLeeSsang
Which is a Korean way of abbreviating:
Kim Taek Yong (Bisu) Song Byung Goo (Stork) Lee Jae Dong (Jaedong) Lee Young Ho (Flash)
Basically it indicates the 4 dominant players of the era in this case. They are so dominant that any other player rising to their level for even a limited period of time is considered quite noteworthy.
Of them all, Stork is sometimes considered the "Fourth Wheel" though lately he has had significantly better individual league results than Bisu, who as recently as 4-5 months ago was close to being kicked from the TBLS elite four by Kal, who had posted much better results.
On June 03 2011 06:19 Holgerius wrote: Flash at #1 in all ELO categories, Kespa rank, PR and in a Starleague final. The God-era is about to begin all over again. :D
Also, yay FBH! ^__^ And yay Zero! And nooooooo JD.
On June 03 2011 06:30 WaterTower wrote: Putting Jaedong at #5 is a bit too much of an overkill. Yes he lost to Zero, but as you mentioned, it was due to Zero's skill rather than Jaedong's lack of skill. I love it how Jaedong drops 4 ranks at the touch of a button while Flash generally gets a reprieve for his poor play. Jaedong faced a much more powerful zerg as well and luck played against him. In game 4, i think 2-3 seconds would have made the difference between victory and loss, while no one can commend Flash for game 2 even if he won because of his sloppy, careless loss of dropships.
And the Power rank is not about performance for any single month. It represents the most threatening players overall.
The question is, would anyone rather face Jaedong than Soulkey or even Bisu? I think most progamers would much rather play any of the rank 2-4 than Jaedong. IMO, one month shouldnt make it or break it
1-Flash 2-Jaedong 3-Zero 4-Bisu 5-Soulkey
The rest are really not all that impressive
And how can you honestly say Jaedong has been threatening in the last month? He himself has said that his performance in the last month has been poor
Did you mean "PL" or did you intentionally say "PR". Because I don't understand your post if you say "PR"...
On June 03 2011 14:41 d(O.o)a wrote: I believed in zero :'(
why frowny face? Zero is #2 on PR and is finally at a finals. That by itself is a huge accomplishment and he hasn't even played Flash yet. I believed in Zero and I'm very happy for him :D
On June 03 2011 14:41 d(O.o)a wrote: I believed in zero :'(
why frowny face? Zero is #2 on PR and is finally at a finals. That by itself is a huge accomplishment and he hasn't even played Flash yet. I believed in Zero and I'm very happy for him :D
Oh I know, I am as well, I was joking about not being included in the OP ^,^
On June 03 2011 14:41 d(O.o)a wrote: I believed in zero :'(
why frowny face? Zero is #2 on PR and is finally at a finals. That by itself is a huge accomplishment and he hasn't even played Flash yet. I believed in Zero and I'm very happy for him :D
Oh I know, I am as well, I was joking about not being included in the OP ^,^
On June 03 2011 19:56 ImbaTosS wrote: Why is there always such an undercurrent of anti-Horang2 resentment? The man's a hero!!!
His play is edgy and exciting but at the core of it all he's simply all-ining the shit out of everyone he meets lol..
Edit: PvT, PvZ, PvP? 2 base 10 gateways GOGOGOGOGO lollol.
He also has a history of being a PvP sniper with no PvZ or PvT to speak of.
A history he has totally reversed lately while still maintaining his PvP skills
The point is that a bad history is something you have to prove you've escaped. A lot of people want to see more before they will say "yes, he's escaped it."
For the placement of the Power Rank, I think every gamer should think.. if I had to face one of these players, and had to win a prize, which one? Flash is an automatic out because of his all-rounded exceptional play against every race. He really deserves the title of Bonjwa.
Now, Zero. He has been doing well, but history had indicated that he hasn't really shown true excellence. He did manage to beat Jaedong, but is can 4 games really be a reliable indicator?
Bisu, of course, has been a good player, but except against zerg, he is really not outstanding.
Soulkey has been rising for a while, and his rise almost mirror's that of Flash. But that's as far as it goes.
Jaedong, on the other hand, has shown greatness for years. Sure, he fumbled badly this month, but does that make it so any gamer would discount him more than Zero or Soulkey?
On June 04 2011 05:39 WaterTower wrote: For the placement of the Power Rank, I think every gamer should think.. if I had to face one of these players, and had to win a prize, which one? Flash is an automatic out because of his all-rounded exceptional play against every race. He really deserves the title of Bonjwa.
Now, Zero. He has been doing well, but history had indicated that he hasn't really shown true excellence. He did manage to beat Jaedong, but is can 4 games really be a reliable indicator?
Bisu, of course, has been a good player, but except against zerg, he is really not outstanding.
Soulkey has been rising for a while, and his rise almost mirror's that of Flash. But that's as far as it goes.
Jaedong, on the other hand, has shown greatness for years. Sure, he fumbled badly this month, but does that make it so any gamer would discount him more than Zero or Soulkey?
Jaedong, FTW.
The problem with arranging the power rank by "who is most feared" is that it will rarely change, you're talking maybe a couple of new faces every season (plus Reach would be on there every month, because... come on ). The PR does of course take that into account, but you have to show results to stay up there, which means a more fluid power rank where every progamer stands a chance, without needing 6 months of top performance.
On June 04 2011 05:39 WaterTower wrote: For the placement of the Power Rank, I think every gamer should think.. if I had to face one of these players, and had to win a prize, which one? Flash is an automatic out because of his all-rounded exceptional play against every race. He really deserves the title of Bonjwa.
Now, Zero. He has been doing well, but history had indicated that he hasn't really shown true excellence. He did manage to beat Jaedong, but is can 4 games really be a reliable indicator?
Bisu, of course, has been a good player, but except against zerg, he is really not outstanding.
Soulkey has been rising for a while, and his rise almost mirror's that of Flash. But that's as far as it goes.
Jaedong, on the other hand, has shown greatness for years. Sure, he fumbled badly this month, but does that make it so any gamer would discount him more than Zero or Soulkey?
Jaedong, FTW.
You fail to consider that both soulkey and zero are the most badass motherfuckers in the history of starcraft (After GGPlay).
On June 04 2011 05:39 WaterTower wrote: For the placement of the Power Rank, I think every gamer should think.. if I had to face one of these players, and had to win a prize, which one? Flash is an automatic out because of his all-rounded exceptional play against every race. He really deserves the title of Bonjwa.
Now, Zero. He has been doing well, but history had indicated that he hasn't really shown true excellence. He did manage to beat Jaedong, but is can 4 games really be a reliable indicator?
Bisu, of course, has been a good player, but except against zerg, he is really not outstanding.
Soulkey has been rising for a while, and his rise almost mirror's that of Flash. But that's as far as it goes.
Jaedong, on the other hand, has shown greatness for years. Sure, he fumbled badly this month, but does that make it so any gamer would discount him more than Zero or Soulkey?
Jaedong, FTW.
And you will continue to think that way about Jaedong even if he fails to make it past the first round of every Starleague for the next two years. Just like how Bisu fans felt that way about Bisu back in 2010 right after he came back from his loss streak and achieved a few unimportant wins in a row. (As far as I'm concerned, Bisu did not truly reassert his position as S-class until last season.) That's why Power Rank isn't written that way -- it would be even less indicative of who is hot than KeSPA ranking is.
On June 04 2011 05:39 WaterTower wrote: For the placement of the Power Rank, I think every gamer should think.. if I had to face one of these players, and had to win a prize, which one? Flash is an automatic out because of his all-rounded exceptional play against every race. He really deserves the title of Bonjwa.
Now, Zero. He has been doing well, but history had indicated that he hasn't really shown true excellence. He did manage to beat Jaedong, but is can 4 games really be a reliable indicator?
Bisu, of course, has been a good player, but except against zerg, he is really not outstanding.
Soulkey has been rising for a while, and his rise almost mirror's that of Flash. But that's as far as it goes.
Jaedong, on the other hand, has shown greatness for years. Sure, he fumbled badly this month, but does that make it so any gamer would discount him more than Zero or Soulkey?
Jaedong, FTW.
Jaedong played a truly mediocre month of Starcraft. He is not the most threatening Zerg right now, and if you watch all his games (which I try very hard to do) his play should not strike fear into others' hearts at the moment. He basically lost to Reality, lost pretty badly to Zero, was beaten by people with relatively mediocre ZvZs and did not show the mental fortitude to win a series against a prepared opponent. He looked shaky in EVERY SINGLE MATCHUP and every series. If his name was not Jaedong, everyone would be shocked he made it to the Ro4 with how mediocre his play was throughout the MSL group stages.
Zero will be number 1 next month after he uses his MSL victory to fuel a sick Proleague streak. Flash can have number two since he'll probably take a game from Zero in the finals.
I'll be honest, I didn't even believe in Zero. I latched on to Zero and Stars when I first started following BW in late 2008, and I quickly learned not to 'believe' in Zero, in the sense that he could win any game but would always stumble somewhere in a Starleague.
On June 03 2011 12:15 Mortician wrote: What does TBLS mean?
TaekBangLeeSsang
Which is a Korean way of abbreviating:
Kim Taek Yong (Bisu) Song Byung Goo (Stork) Lee Jae Dong (Jaedong) Lee Young Ho (Flash)
Basically it indicates the 4 dominant players of the era in this case. They are so dominant that any other player rising to their level for even a limited period of time is considered quite noteworthy.
Of them all, Stork is sometimes considered the "Fourth Wheel" though lately he has had significantly better individual league results than Bisu, who as recently as 4-5 months ago was close to being kicked from the TBLS elite four by Kal, who had posted much better results.
Lol, I didn't know what the abbreviationd standed for, I know who they are ^^
even if zero or soulkey doesnt have the history on their side, before 2010 people talked about flash but no one believed he will tie jaedong or even surpass him, and now he has the chance to tie the most succesfull progamer aka red nada.so i think we should leave a chance to zero and soulkey even thou they might not win, they are playing great starcraft atm, more that what you can say about jaedong. the fact is simple soulkey and zero had an excellent month and jaedong didnt PERIOD. if you fail to see it you are blinded.
Flash looks unstoppable, in every matchup. In TvT his positioning and Tank/Vulture vs. Tank/Vulture combat has improved a lot recently. For a while he would lose some engagements and rely on his superior macro and game sense to win his games. But when you look at his recent game against FBH he just destroyed poor FBH by walking into his Tank lines and tearing them apart. In TvZ and TvP I do not see much light for his poor opponents either .He makes T look imba against both races but fortunately he also makes T look imba in the mirror :p ATM I do not think it will be a particularly close MSL finals, he will have an answer for Queens. 3-1 at least, maybe even a clean sweep.
On June 06 2011 14:58 moopie wrote: This has got to be the longest slump jd has had in a very long while, makes me sad :/
The thing that concerns me the most is that he hasn't looked good in his games at all, other than the MSL group stages (in which he was basically handed wins through poor decision-making regardless). I know Jaedong has what it takes to get back to the top of the game, but he really dropped the ball all month and hasn't shown any signs of greatness in a while.
JD will be back in shape soon, it is JD we're talking about after all. You know, the guy who was one series away from being in yet another starleague final? He's just gotta regain that ZvZ magic.
On June 03 2011 06:30 WaterTower wrote: Putting Jaedong at #5 is a bit too much of an overkill. Yes he lost to Zero, but as you mentioned, it was due to Zero's skill rather than Jaedong's lack of skill. I love it how Jaedong drops 4 ranks at the touch of a button while Flash generally gets a reprieve for his poor play. Jaedong faced a much more powerful zerg as well and luck played against him. In game 4, i think 2-3 seconds would have made the difference between victory and loss, while no one can commend Flash for game 2 even if he won because of his sloppy, careless loss of dropships.
And the Power rank is not about performance for any single month. It represents the most threatening players overall.
The question is, would anyone rather face Jaedong than Soulkey or even Bisu? I think most progamers would much rather play any of the rank 2-4 than Jaedong. IMO, one month shouldnt make it or break it
1-Flash 2-Jaedong 3-Zero 4-Bisu 5-Soulkey
The rest are really not all that impressive
On June 03 2011 06:51 WaterTower wrote: Like I said, one month shouldn't make or break a player. Jaedong has won more games than any other progamer in the history of SC and has the second highest winning percentage of all time.
On June 03 2011 22:08 aupstar wrote: How is Bisu above Jaedong?
To anyone arguing that jaedong should be above bisu or even zero. jaedong is probably at his lowest elo in like 3 years while the other two are near their peaks. Also bisu would trash jaedong and zero just beat him.
Flash is like 50 ahead of bisu in elo and bisu is like 100 ahead of next (hydra) It makes it easy to tell who is doing good
On June 02 2011 23:15 SaetZero wrote: I dont think I can get behind Soulkey above JD, or even above Hydra. The majority of his competition in proleague just wasn't spectacular besides like Stats and JD. I would fully bet that Soulkey woulda gotten 3-0d by Flash too, in equal fashion. Otherwise good list.
Soulkey has much better TvT than hydra imo. He's also more impressive imo.
On June 03 2011 06:30 WaterTower wrote: Putting Jaedong at #5 is a bit too much of an overkill. Yes he lost to Zero, but as you mentioned, it was due to Zero's skill rather than Jaedong's lack of skill. I love it how Jaedong drops 4 ranks at the touch of a button while Flash generally gets a reprieve for his poor play. Jaedong faced a much more powerful zerg as well and luck played against him. In game 4, i think 2-3 seconds would have made the difference between victory and loss, while no one can commend Flash for game 2 even if he won because of his sloppy, careless loss of dropships.
And the Power rank is not about performance for any single month. It represents the most threatening players overall.
The question is, would anyone rather face Jaedong than Soulkey or even Bisu? I think most progamers would much rather play any of the rank 2-4 than Jaedong. IMO, one month shouldnt make it or break it
1-Flash 2-Jaedong 3-Zero 4-Bisu 5-Soulkey
The rest are really not all that impressive
Why are you so offended by his opinion? It's an opinion, no reason to be so uptight about it.
So stoked for this weekend, managed to convince some people to stay up with me and watch :D
I kind of want to make a TLFE but I have no sense of making graphics or finding pictures, and I'm not sure anything I'd make would be put up on the FE bit. :o
I'm pretty sure Ver is working on a Flash TLFE. I don't think anyone can top him =) And yeah, I guess next month first place won't be too hard to decide.
On June 11 2011 21:57 corumjhaelen wrote: I'm pretty sure Ver is working on a Flash TLFE. I don't think anyone can top him =) And yeah, I guess next month first place won't be too hard to decide.
Really? I thought he was doing the part 2 of that savior TLFE
flash has cheated the gods of starcraft, they were like how this kid beat us he us only mortal, and he said, i am no mortal i am F. L. A. S .H, Final Logarithm Anthropomorphic Systematized Human
On June 11 2011 21:57 corumjhaelen wrote: I'm pretty sure Ver is working on a Flash TLFE. I don't think anyone can top him =) And yeah, I guess next month first place won't be too hard to decide.
If only that was true... Ver's articles are always pleasure to read
On June 11 2011 21:57 corumjhaelen wrote: I'm pretty sure Ver is working on a Flash TLFE. I don't think anyone can top him =) And yeah, I guess next month first place won't be too hard to decide.
If only that was true... Ver's articles are always pleasure to read
He said in the thread to his Oov article that he's writing on one about Flash.
What's so amazing is that Flash is still one of the youngest progamers out there, and unless he is stopped by his wrist problems it's hard to imagine him NOT picking up many more Starleague titles before his career is over. He's likely to absolutely crush Nada's record within a year or so.
On June 11 2011 21:57 corumjhaelen wrote: I'm pretty sure Ver is working on a Flash TLFE. I don't think anyone can top him =) And yeah, I guess next month first place won't be too hard to decide.
If only that was true... Ver's articles are always pleasure to read
He said in the thread to his Oov article that he's writing on one about Flash.
What's so amazing is that Flash is still one of the youngest progamers out there, and unless he is stopped by his wrist problems it's hard to imagine him NOT picking up many more Starleague titles before his career is over. He's likely to absolutely crush Nada's record within a year or so.
That's great! Can't wait to read it. Flash definitely deserves a new TLFE and who can do it better than Ver!
On June 11 2011 21:25 KristianJS wrote: Flash for permanent #1 in PR Rank imo.
Or at least a reserved slot, in case it is dubious. He's a frikkin MONSTER. And only 19. Only God (fail pun, I know) knows how many titles he's still gonna get before his wrist stops him.
Ya, I think Flash has proven once again that he most definitely deserves to get a fuckton of benefit of doubt whenever we're in such a situation. He has, at least in my eyes, shown that his weird failure last season was a total fluke. I fully expect him to reach at least the final of the upcoming OSL.
On June 11 2011 21:57 corumjhaelen wrote: I'm pretty sure Ver is working on a Flash TLFE. I don't think anyone can top him =) And yeah, I guess next month first place won't be too hard to decide.
If only that was true... Ver's articles are always pleasure to read
He said in the thread to his Oov article that he's writing on one about Flash.
What's so amazing is that Flash is still one of the youngest progamers out there, and unless he is stopped by his wrist problems it's hard to imagine him NOT picking up many more Starleague titles before his career is over. He's likely to absolutely crush Nada's record within a year or so.
On June 11 2011 21:57 corumjhaelen wrote: I'm pretty sure Ver is working on a Flash TLFE. I don't think anyone can top him =) And yeah, I guess next month first place won't be too hard to decide.
If only that was true... Ver's articles are always pleasure to read
He said in the thread to his Oov article that he's writing on one about Flash.
What's so amazing is that Flash is still one of the youngest progamers out there, and unless he is stopped by his wrist problems it's hard to imagine him NOT picking up many more Starleague titles before his career is over. He's likely to absolutely crush Nada's record within a year or so.
His oov article?
Ya, the Oov article he wrote in '08 or something. It was bumped earlier this year and I posted that he should write something about Flash, to which he replied that he's already working on it.
If the PR was to be made now, I think it would be Flash #1 Bisu #2. Bisu's been playing well enough to win almost every game he's played and Zero really sorta blew his chance of a high placement with an awful performance in the finals.
Although the PR will be made in a few weeks, I think #1 is definetley clear, it takes something special, that Flash is not #1, maybe if he loses all the other games this month and getting raped even by rookies, but the chances that you will win in a lottery are even higher ^^. #2 spot is Bisu at the moment, new elo peak, new most win in PL record and JD is even more low hope he starts raping again.
So, I'm going to start campaigning for BeSt as #3. He is looking like his old form, and with stork slumping hard now, I think he has the best PvT out there. As long as park helps him avoid zergs for the rest of the month, he is going to end with a very impressive record.
edit: Hell, forget just PvT. Aside from flash, he is probably the best vT player
It seems getting a single win out of Flash is enough to torpedo yourself to super stardom these days.
He's literally a less complex version of Skyhigh, a player that can only play a single matchup and probably doesn't have enough depth to his play to break early aggression like peak Stork can. Before shooting him as number 3, how about we wait and see if he can actually achieve some consistency, that is actually be relatively useful against protoss and zerg.
On June 13 2011 01:18 hacklebeast wrote: So, I'm going to start campaigning for BeSt as #3. He is looking like his old form, and with stork slumping hard now, I think he has the best PvT out there. As long as park helps him avoid zergs for the rest of the month, he is going to end with a very impressive record.
edit: Hell, forget just PvT. Aside from flash, he is probably the best vT player
Lol, this isn't even close to good enough to get you #3. Beating Flash is nice but if that's the case then Reality should be up there too. Atleast reality took a game off Jaedong too.
He is 7-1 since the slump, 3-0 on the month. In that steak there were 2 flash wins, along with one over bogus, the second most impressive terran of late.
He hasn't shown his PvZ (which probably sucks) or his PvP yet, but we shouldn't hold that against him. Case and point: Zero last month got to 2 with ZvZ alone. We just kind of set aside his other matches, and lauded him for beating a less impressive list of opponents then Best' terrans.
And is anyone else (outside of bisu and flash) looking impressive? I'd be surprised to see zero get anywhere above 8, JD and SK certainly aren't performing to their potential. The only other person I can see close is hydra, but at this moment I think best is doing better, and if things continue at this pace, he should be 3.
Unfortunately, I don't think there's a precedent for veteran players who have done nothing of note in years jumping as high as #3. I agree, his vT is looking pretty awesome. But he lost in Survivor to Classic and Hoejja this season... um what?
BeSt is certainly making a case for a spot on the rank, but at 7 or 8 tops. The last time he made it anywhere in an individual league was like a year and a half ago (+/- half a year, lol... my mind is fuzzy) when he was 3-0'd by Flash. Strong play for a month following a year or so of slumping doesn't move you up to 3rd.
Zero, on the other hand, has (in)consistently been top 2 or 3 Zergs for a while. He's demonstrated strong play vs T and P in the past, taking out Flash and Bisu and Stork... and then he beat the best ZvZ player Jaedong in a Bo5, no less. That's why he could be put as high as #2.
On June 13 2011 03:47 hacklebeast wrote: He is 7-1 since the slump, 3-0 on the month. In that steak there were 2 flash wins, along with one over bogus, the second most impressive terran of late.
He hasn't shown his PvZ (which probably sucks) or his PvP yet, but we shouldn't hold that against him. Case and point: Zero last month got to 2 with ZvZ alone. We just kind of set aside his other matches, and lauded him for beating a less impressive list of opponents then Best' terrans.
And is anyone else (outside of bisu and flash) looking impressive? I'd be surprised to see zero get anywhere above 8, JD and SK certainly aren't performing to their potential. The only other person I can see close is hydra, but at this moment I think best is doing better, and if things continue at this pace, he should be 3.
How can you even compare Best to Zero? Best has been doing well in his historically strongest match-up and has completely unproven PvZ and PvP right now and is coming off the worst slump in his career. The ONLY accomplishment Best has in 2011 is pulling 2 wins off Flash. Zero has been consistently one of the top 3 Zergs all year making semifinal or higher twice and then burst out with exceptional performances in his historically weakest match-up. His ZvT and ZvP were already well proven and has a total record of 10-6 against TBLS in 2011, pulling wins from each member. Compare that to Best being 9-11 in total in 2011. Best has something to prove that Zero doesn't.
On June 13 2011 05:03 ]343[ wrote: Unfortunately, I don't think there's a precedent for veteran players who have done nothing of note in years jumping as high as #3. I agree, his vT is looking pretty awesome. But he lost in Survivor to Classic and Hoejja this season... um what?
Yea, that's bad, but on the other hand, he has gone undefeated vZ since On a more serious note, everyone outside of bisu and flash has a similar loss. Jaedong lost to hero (the other hero), SK lost to sun, horang lost to grape twice, bogus lost to hoejja twice, FBH lost to perfect man, ect.
Similarly, flash, hydra, zero and JD are the only people on the PR that have been making impacts on individual leagues lately, meaning that the majority of the next PR will have had little to no success in the MSL.
I could see why hydra could be ahead of best, but if you don't want best in the top five, then who?
and as for precedent: The last time Mind was on the PR was last month at #4. The time before that was 6-08.
Edit: I don't understand why zero's weakness in ZvZ is a benefit to him. If Best's good record is a detriment, and zero's bad record is a boom, then can we just demote flash? He has a REALLY good history, so I guess that means that the MSL win doesn't mean much. Maybe we could put him in the 6-8 range?
And I don't understand how anyone considers zero consistent. His 12-6 last month isn't exactly a model of consistency, and he has been know for the one of the most INconsistent players his entire career. I think your wrong about him being consistently top 3 of all zergs this year. In Jan's PR he wasn't in the top 5 of zergs, Feb he was 3rd, Mar he wasn't in the top 4, April he was 2nd, May he was 4th (not top 3) and June he was 1st. Not exactly the model of consistency.
Power Rank is a measure of hotness. Best isn't hot, he's only ever been good at a single matchup for a long period of time and is completely one dimensional to the point he can lose badly to FBH if he's attacked with a non-macro heavy strategy. His only achievements in like two years is beating Flash in teamleagues, where Flash just does the same comfortable build for everyone he meets, and then crying after the same 17 year old kid rolls him in series matches because the circumstances are different (aka not SKT vs Flash but Best vs Flash, and I think history has shown that when Flash prepares a build for Best, Best doesn't win).
Meanwhile in all of these years he hasn't changed his abysmal PvZ, which he hasn't played much of to be fair, and his PvP has gotten worse, which he hasn't played all that much recently to be fair. He has basically been relegated to terran sniper role and nothing else, that's how hot he is as a player right now.
When Mind got on the PR last time, I'm fairly sure he was picking up his game greatly in all matchups and was getting somewhere in individual leagues. Basically he was showing snapshots of his peak form when he was like the #1 terran that won the MSL all over again.
Zero's bad ZvZ was taken into the spotlight because he managed to overcome his one weakness to get through two very good ZvZ players to get to the finals. It shows a player with a lot of potential becoming more well rounded and capable, basically he was on fire at that moment of time. He's definitely one of the top three zergs: #1 is Jaedong, #2 is probably Hydra so who is #3? Calm? s2? Soulkey? Consistency or no consistency, the kid actually gets results with some fairly good play and that's how he gets on the PR.
On June 12 2011 15:28 Lightwip wrote: If the PR was to be made now, I think it would be Flash #1 Bisu #2. Bisu's been playing well enough to win almost every game he's played and Zero really sorta blew his chance of a high placement with an awful performance in the finals.
I'm admittedly biased, but ZerO's performance imo wasn't "awful" except for game 3 where he was clearly tilting hard. Game 1 he got surprised/out-thought but played reasonably well; Game 2 was a solid ol' college try but came short; Game 3 he threw away, yeah.
AND, anyway, it's way too early to make a call on next month. It's been 7 days since this PR came out. In that time Bisu's beaten Flying (who is bad) and Action (who is mediocre at best, and I think he's bad). ZerO's beaten fantasy (who admittedly has TvZ issues but has more wins against Zerg (10) than either Action (8) or Flying (4) have against Protoss on the season) and lost to Flash (who is the Goddamned Batman of BroodWar) in admittedly not-entirely-inspiring fashion. Now, I'm not suggesting that Bisu's going to randomly slump out of nowhere, or that ZerO will miraculously stop losing ace games, and yes there's a distinct possibility that at the end of the month Bisu will be back to #2. But let's wait more than a week, 'k?
On June 13 2011 08:19 hacklebeast wrote: I think 7-1 with 2 wins over the undisputed best player is rather hot.
While I do agree that Best is deserving of a position in the PR, I wouldn't give him anything above 6 so far. Granted there's still a while to go for the month so it's possible that he will start doing really well in matchups other than vT though it's currently unproven.
On June 13 2011 08:19 hacklebeast wrote: I think 7-1 with 2 wins over the undisputed best player is rather hot.
A player needs more than 1 strong match to be hot unless that 1 strong match is enough to produce important results. So since you're pushing Best so hard, I guess his streak carried him into BoX stages of SL? I guess it includes playoff matches? No?
Giving a high place on PR to everybody who produces a win streak in PL is ridiculous.
Giving a high place on PR to everybody who produces a win streak in PL is ridiculous.
Bisu?
Other than flash, who is producing inportant results this month? No SL this month, so the only inportant games are ace matches. Is there a guy out there who is winning a lot of them?
I think, like Mortality said, doing well in your weakest matchup, ZerO, is better than doing well in your strongest matchup, Best. His PvZ being untested, and other things Mortality mentioned, doesn't warrant Best being number three.
I think I should argue for ZerO's sake here too. Even though ZerO went 0-3 against Flash, he's still 2nd place in the MSL. I think people discredits second place simply because they didn't win, despite making it to the finals.
Giving a high place on PR to everybody who produces a win streak in PL is ridiculous.
Bisu?
Other than flash, who is producing inportant results this month? No SL this month, so the only inportant games are ace matches. Is there a guy out there who is winning a lot of them?
Except that Bisu has the highest number of wins in PL and we're nearing the end of the season. That actually IS an accomplishment worth bragging about -- not a paltry few wins racked up on one particular month. There's also his performances from the SWL playoffs and the true fact that Bisu has had bad luck recently in who he faces in tournament play. Not to mention that his actual game play is smoother than anything I've seen in any beer commercial ever. What can Best say?
Regarding results... they are ALWAYS to be taken in the context of history. Someone who does well in PL this month AND has done well in past months gets precedent over someone who has nothing to his name. The only way Best can get around that is by proving himself against strong non-Terrans or by somehow playing an extra vital role in his team's performance (but do not anticipate this happening in the shadows of Bisu and Fantasy).
Given Best's history, all we can say with any kind of certainty is that he's doing well in his best match.
Giving a high place on PR to everybody who produces a win streak in PL is ridiculous.
Bisu?
Other than flash, who is producing inportant results this month? No SL this month, so the only inportant games are ace matches. Is there a guy out there who is winning a lot of them?
Except Bisu is still good at PvP, makes PvZ look like a joke which has always been a matchup protoss has struggled with, and winning the vast majority of PvT games. He's at 58 fucking wins, of course he's going to get a high ranking because you don't get that by just being good at a single matchup.
Best is good at PvT macro, water is wet and the sky is blue. He's achieved nothing special besides beating Flash in a situation where Flash is likely to choose more suitable, stable builds in proleague right after his MSL finals - his PvZ is presumably still utter garbage and only capable of beating bottom ranking zergs and his PvP is only average and not good...both are probably the reason why he's never going to do anything but beat terrans who try and fight him in a macro match in proleague.
Simply beating Flash once doesn't mean you're actually hot, as good Flash is. Good, his rising performance should probably deserve a low ranking in the power rank but a small streak (that isn't even particularly amazing considering its not even a double digit streak in what is essentially a single matchup) in a single matchup doesn't deserve #3.
What a terrible time it is for a Zerg fan/Terran hater to be watching BW right now. Jaedong slumping hard, Flash looking invincible once more... this is so depressing. Maybe EffOrt can make a strong comeback once he can play again.
On June 13 2011 20:23 Cpadolf wrote: Looks like Jaedong might fall of PR for the first time since... what, august 2007?
The month is still young, he can do it. But in case he drops it is the first time since august 2007.
He is now on 5 games losing streak... I wonder when was the last time that happened to him. I seriously can't remember. And he dropped below 2200 for the first time in ages.
I hope he will bounce back but in his current form he might not fit into PR :O
On June 13 2011 20:23 Cpadolf wrote: Looks like Jaedong might fall of PR for the first time since... what, august 2007?
The month is still young, he can do it. But in case he drops it is the first time since august 2007.
He is now on 5 games losing streak... I wonder when was the last time that happened to him. I seriously can't remember. And he dropped below 2200 for the first time in ages.
I hope he will bounce back but in his current form he might not fit into PR :O
Giving a high place on PR to everybody who produces a win streak in PL is ridiculous.
Bisu?
Other than flash, who is producing inportant results this month? No SL this month, so the only inportant games are ace matches. Is there a guy out there who is winning a lot of them?
Except that Bisu has the highest number of wins in PL and we're nearing the end of the season. That actually IS an accomplishment worth bragging about -- not a paltry few wins racked up on one particular month. There's also his performances from the SWL playoffs and the true fact that Bisu has had bad luck recently in who he faces in tournament play. Not to mention that his actual game play is smoother than anything I've seen in any beer commercial ever. What can Best say?
Regarding results... they are ALWAYS to be taken in the context of history. Someone who does well in PL this month AND has done well in past months gets precedent over someone who has nothing to his name. The only way Best can get around that is by proving himself against strong non-Terrans or by somehow playing an extra vital role in his team's performance (but do not anticipate this happening in the shadows of Bisu and Fantasy).
Given Best's history, all we can say with any kind of certainty is that he's doing well in his best match.
He should be below Bisu, agreed.
So you are arguing either: 1) Best has had a bad history, so he needs to do a lot to prove himself and should be ranked low. or 2)He has had a good history, so it isn't that impressive he is beating terrans, so he should be ranked low. What?
And I still haven't heard anyone say who should be ahead of him outside of Flash Bisu Hydra. Do you want 4-loss-streak zero in the top 5, or 5-loss-streak JD (the only other people with good recent individual league records)?
Giving a high place on PR to everybody who produces a win streak in PL is ridiculous.
Bisu?
Other than flash, who is producing inportant results this month? No SL this month, so the only inportant games are ace matches. Is there a guy out there who is winning a lot of them?
Except that Bisu has the highest number of wins in PL and we're nearing the end of the season. That actually IS an accomplishment worth bragging about -- not a paltry few wins racked up on one particular month. There's also his performances from the SWL playoffs and the true fact that Bisu has had bad luck recently in who he faces in tournament play. Not to mention that his actual game play is smoother than anything I've seen in any beer commercial ever. What can Best say?
Regarding results... they are ALWAYS to be taken in the context of history. Someone who does well in PL this month AND has done well in past months gets precedent over someone who has nothing to his name. The only way Best can get around that is by proving himself against strong non-Terrans or by somehow playing an extra vital role in his team's performance (but do not anticipate this happening in the shadows of Bisu and Fantasy).
Given Best's history, all we can say with any kind of certainty is that he's doing well in his best match.
He should be below Bisu, agreed.
So you are arguing either: 1) Best has had a bad history, so he needs to do a lot to prove himself and should be ranked low. or 2)He has had a good history, so it isn't that impressive he is beating terrans, so he should be ranked low. What?
And I still haven't heard anyone say who should be ahead of him outside of Flash Bisu Hydra. Do you want 4-loss-streak zero in the top 5, or 5-loss-streak JD (the only other people with good recent individual league records)?
Best was good back in like 2008. Over the last half year Best has had a horrible history. In fact, going back farther, he is 43% PvZ and 45% PvP over the past 2 years (35% PvZ over the past year!). Hardly confidence inspiring.
Zero might come out ahead of Best depending on how things go. That "4 loss streak" includes a Bo5 in the MSL final, which is hardly comparable to some random group of 3 PL games. Jaedong may actually drop since he looked incredibly shaky already last month and is 0-3 so far this month.
On June 13 2011 20:23 Cpadolf wrote: Looks like Jaedong might fall of PR for the first time since... what, august 2007?
The month is still young, he can do it. But in case he drops it is the first time since august 2007.
He is now on 5 games losing streak... I wonder when was the last time that happened to him. I seriously can't remember. And he dropped below 2200 for the first time in ages.
I hope he will bounce back but in his current form he might not fit into PR :O
Never.
...I thought you were just /fanboy-ing. I had no idea that was actually true. 764 games and this is the first time he's lost 5 in a row. He's only gone on a 4-loss streak like 3 times, too (I wasn't counting exactly). My mind is blown.
(And Flash's record is even more ridiculous, even though his worst streak is 6... it's at the very beginning of his career.)
Ya, JD is on his worst losing streak of his career, under 2200 ELO (fucking Movie is ahead of him!)... at this point he definitely drops off completely. I'm saying this as a huge JD fan who normally likes to give a lot of leniency to the (normally) S-class guys. 7-12 since he beat Flash.
I'd give Jaedong a #10 spot if it were to be made right now. I think he deserves that little benefit of the doubt for years of good play. Savior was given the same in his last month of PR. I think Jaedong deserves a final chance.
On June 14 2011 04:05 Lightwip wrote: I'd give Jaedong a #10 spot if it were to be made right now. I think he deserves that little benefit of the doubt for years of good play. Savior was given the same in his last month of PR. I think Jaedong deserves a final chance.
it really depends on who else proves to "claim" a PR spot. You dont give a welfare 10th spot unless there really isnt anyother deserving it, (iirc that was also the case with savior?) but otherwise I agree
On June 14 2011 04:05 Lightwip wrote: I'd give Jaedong a #10 spot if it were to be made right now. I think he deserves that little benefit of the doubt for years of good play. Savior was given the same in his last month of PR. I think Jaedong deserves a final chance.
it really depends on who else proves to "claim" a PR spot. You dont give a welfare 10th spot unless there really isnt anyother deserving it, (iirc that was also the case with savior?) but otherwise I agree
This
+ I think people are kind of assuming this slump will continue given how the past couple months have gone, and given how things were looking much earlier in the year.
On June 14 2011 04:05 Lightwip wrote: I'd give Jaedong a #10 spot if it were to be made right now. I think he deserves that little benefit of the doubt for years of good play. Savior was given the same in his last month of PR. I think Jaedong deserves a final chance.
He already got the benefit of the doubt last month. If the new PR were to be written today he would not place anywhere on it. Maybe in a shoutout as more of a "get better" (not even a CBNC). Fortunately for him, he's still got a couple weeks to snap out of this slump and show he's worthy of being on the June PR. His mediocre performance since his win over Reality in the MSL caused him to drop from #2 ELO to #9 (and dip under 2200 pts for the first time in ages).
The same goes for Stork tbh, who's been having a bad couple months now. Stork dropped on the ELO chart from ~#5-6 to #15, being surpassed by protoss players like Horang2, Movie and Snow, and only 3 ELO points above BeSt and Stats.
As of right now neither one is fit for a spot, but one can only hope that these slumps are only temporary.
i think jaedong will the next one who break the nadas record, i mean he have tried so many times, he really deserves it. but i believe once that curse is broken , things will go wild, we will see 7 8 and 9 leagues coming from players as if it meant nothing, because sc bar has been raised to a point that the elders of sc(nada, boxer, garimto etc) didnt forseen. we are witnessing the diamond age of starcraft and we will hope it last as long as still lives in korea.
On June 14 2011 04:05 Lightwip wrote: I'd give Jaedong a #10 spot if it were to be made right now. I think he deserves that little benefit of the doubt for years of good play. Savior was given the same in his last month of PR. I think Jaedong deserves a final chance.
He already got the benefit of the doubt last month. If the new PR were to be written today he would not place anywhere on it. Maybe in a shoutout as more of a "get better" (not even a CBNC). Fortunately for him, he's still got a couple weeks to snap out of this slump and show he's worthy of being on the June PR. His mediocre performance since his win over Reality in the MSL caused him to drop from #2 ELO to #9 (and dip under 2200 pts for the first time in ages).
The same goes for Stork tbh, who's been having a bad couple months now. Stork dropped on the ELO chart from ~#5-6 to #15, being surpassed by protoss players like Horang2, Movie and Snow, and only 3 ELO points above BeSt and Stats.
As of right now neither one is fit for a spot, but one can only hope that these slumps are only temporary.
On June 14 2011 16:13 Vasoline73 wrote: Sigh at people thinking JD should be off the rank... no way.
He hasn't really done anything that would keep him on the rank though. That's the main problem. Sure there's still time to go, but as of now, no reason to keep him on. Maybe i'll change my mind by the end of this month.
On June 14 2011 16:13 Vasoline73 wrote: Sigh at people thinking JD should be off the rank... no way.
What has he done to inspire confidence. He struggled against Reality, who really could have won the third game had he not acted so aggressively, he lost a ZvZ Bo5 against Zero who has always had sketchy ZvZ, lost against a rookie Wemade zerg, lost his first ever game against Leta, and now lost against the ggaemo. His ZvT is, I'm guessing, still fantastic but his ZvP hasn't adjusted to the times (and he's just another zerg for Bisu) and recently he just keeps losing ZvZs.
How much grace can you give someone? He can improve a lot this month but if he keeps this up, he's not going to be able to prove that this is just a small unlucky loss streak in his career. I think the real test is how he performs against KT because let's be honest even if he isn't playing at 100%, no one but Flash should even give him remotely a hard time because they are all terrible against zerg (Luxury, 815 who could be occasionally good, and Forgg don't play anymore so the next best vZ player is Stats...).
On June 14 2011 16:13 Vasoline73 wrote: Sigh at people thinking JD should be off the rank... no way.
Man, Flash dropped off the rank for going 6-2 one month, all in TvZ, and the reason was his TvZ was too weak. This is hardly the most ridiculous claim.
might want to keep an eye on kal, he's sucked for a while but his game vs zero yesterday was fucking beast mode, and he supposedly played well vs great in the ace match vs khan. if he can pick up another couple of good wins in proleague he might be worth a cbnc/shoutout
At this point it looks likely that Hydra will overtake Jaedong in the KeSPA rank as well, which would be the first time that Jaedong is not #1 Zerg by KeSPA rank since he took the spot from SaviOr in January 2008. Furthermore, no Zerg that has lost the #1 Zerg KeSPA spot has ever managed to regain it.
And I still haven't heard anyone say who should be ahead of him outside of Flash Bisu Hydra. Do you want 4-loss-streak zero in the top 5, or 5-loss-streak JD (the only other people with good recent individual league records)?
"4 loss streak" is a bit unfair when 3 losses are from Flash.
On June 15 2011 15:13 Lightwip wrote: At this point Jaedong still looks like a #10 at most to me. One good win among a sea of bad losses is still mediocre.
The month is still young. Although JD is not going to play his bitch + Show Spoiler +
On June 15 2011 15:13 Lightwip wrote: At this point Jaedong still looks like a #10 at most to me. One good win among a sea of bad losses is still mediocre.
The month is still young. Although JD is not going to play his bitch + Show Spoiler +
Flash
again this month. So, this may be his sole win.
Was wondering where you went, good to see Flash losing brings everyone with a posting gimmick out of the woodwork.
Just when I was finally ready to detach myself emotionally from Jaedong (because it will seriously hurt if he ever falls into mediocracy), he beats Flash for the third time in a row. My tyrant, don't play with my emotions like this
I am convinced Flamewheel jinxed him with all these rainbow sheeps, so I will refrain to use them anymore.
But I don't think one win is enough to put im onto the PR next month, he needs to collect some more wins during the next two weeks for a low spot.
As a huge Jaedong fan, I have to agree with the rest of the posters. Although he did squeeze out a win I would hesitate to put him on the rank. Although the win was quite sexy~
Also Jaedong still has a lot of fight left in him. There's no way he's going to go out that easy.
I remember once Flash lost something like 6 ace matches in a row and Plexa still had him as 1st... here we have a golden mouse holder on a 3 win streak against the best player in the world and we say to drop him off the ranking.
On June 16 2011 00:01 Soap wrote: I remember once Flash lost something like 6 ace matches in a row and Plexa still had him as 1st... here we have a golden mouse holder on a 3 win streak against the best player in the world and we say to drop him off the ranking.
Yes because losing every game you've played in a month except beating the best player once means he must be on the PR.
On June 16 2011 00:01 Soap wrote: I remember once Flash lost something like 6 ace matches in a row and Plexa still had him as 1st... here we have a golden mouse holder on a 3 win streak against the best player in the world and we say to drop him off the ranking.
Yes because losing every game you've played in a month except beating the best player once means he must be on the PR.
Today is June 15. Could you please provide your sources of clarivoyance along with a few results of lotteries?
On June 16 2011 00:18 Dakkas wrote: Also Plexa is not writing the PR
Jaedong, like everybody else, deserves for us to wait the next 2 1/2 weeks to find out what he does the rest of the month. Hypothetically - and this is JD we're talking about so it's not even implausible - if he goes on a 10-0 run in PL and/or helps OZ scrape into the playoffs, we're not going to be talking about dropping him off the PR, are we?
Since when did the PR become all about statistics and performance in a given month?
Lately, Bisu, Best, Horang2, Movie, Soulkey have all been doing well in proleague but when was the last time they got anywhere in individual leagues? Even if it was a little underwhelming that JD lost to Zero, it's still quite an achievement to make it to the semi-finals. The fact that it was from the previous month doesn't make it irrelevant. I think that PR should reward players for showing good results in that month but it also needs to take a look at the big picture and not just completely remove a player after a bad month even though he's been one of the best players in both individual leagues and proleague since pretty much forever. Jaedong is still probably the best zerg out there, he just hasn't been as reliable and consistent this month as you'd expect him to be. Maybe when Jaedong becomes like Stork, we can talk about removing him from the PR completely.
On June 16 2011 05:27 Lightwip wrote: As I said before, Jaedong deserves a "last chance" on PR for many years of good performance.
Look, I agree with Lightwip! wowowow
He deserves a "grace month" with a low slot, at least; and I'm sure that with this victory over Flash he'll pick himself up again and finish off the month strong. Then he won't need "grace."
On June 16 2011 00:01 Soap wrote: I remember once Flash lost something like 6 ace matches in a row and Plexa still had him as 1st... here we have a golden mouse holder on a 3 win streak against the best player in the world and we say to drop him off the ranking.
When that incident happened with Flash the situation was that Flash had just 3-0 annihilated Jaedong with ease literally 1 day before the start of the PR period. The only two players who were remotely close to Flash at that time were Effort (who had just won 3-2 over Flash) and Jaedong (who had just been sent packing with a 3-0). Effort had a similar month to Flash and while Jaedong had better results that month, PR is not, was not, and god NaDa willing never will be just "who had the highest win percentage last month." Plexa had to make a judgment call: the player who had just made back-to-back dual finals and obliterated his main rival but suddenly lost a few games that didn't actually matter or the rival who had just been obliterated but was now winning games that didn't actually matter (none of the PL games played by either of them actually affected team rankings and both of them continued advancing in the new MSL).
The situation with Jaedong is this: during the PDPod MSL season JD was unable to beat any player with S-class vZ, JD struggled through most of the SWL season, finally seeming to find himself near the end, started looking good again, and now has crashed.
The talk of dropping JD off the ranking completely is premature, but unless JD starts obliterating everyone for the rest of the month, I don't see him making the top half of the ranking.
On June 16 2011 00:01 Soap wrote: I remember once Flash lost something like 6 ace matches in a row and Plexa still had him as 1st... here we have a golden mouse holder on a 3 win streak against the best player in the world and we say to drop him off the ranking.
Yes because losing every game you've played in a month except beating the best player once means he must be on the PR.
Today is June 15. Could you please provide your sources of clarivoyance along with a few results of lotteries?
On June 16 2011 00:18 Dakkas wrote: Also Plexa is not writing the PR
I was not talking about the current PR.
In regards to the first point. Jaedong was losing every game he played which began the whole possibly dropping him from the PR. Not everyone was talking about definitely dropping him. And it still remains a completely valid point until yesterday, losing every/vast majority of his games is not the status of someone on the PR. Though I will agree that it's a rather moot point now since he is starting to get back into form after yesterday's game
And on the second point, Mortaility already debunked why bringing up the past example is illogical. Granted flamewheel likes Dong so he would probably have given him a 9th/10th spot if he continued his little slump but that's beside the point now. The point is that before Jaedong beat Flash, he did not have the aura of the Tyrant. He did not seem very threatening for the Zerg Throne-holder and truth be told, there were a couple other zergs that I'd say were more 'powerful'.
It's only a 1-3 ZvZ loss on MSL semifinals (see, there's going to be at least six guys on the ranking that not even got there), and 1-3 on PL with ZvZ twice and the win against the recent MSL champion. For anyone else this would be solid A-class performance. Of course we expect more from Jaedong, but that shouldn't work against him.
On June 16 2011 10:18 Mortality wrote: The talk of dropping JD off the ranking completely is premature, but unless JD starts obliterating everyone for the rest of the month, I don't see him making the top half f the ranking.
That's not a solid A class performance, a lot of people have achieved better results than that: Best is winning lots of PvT, Horang2 is still winning like every game he plays, Jangbi is actually winning a considerable number of games, Jaehoon is 8-2 in his last 10 games, etc. And it isn't like Jaedong has been playing good recently, his only shining light is really beating Flash again, which seems to be enough to boost anyone into stardom since everyone is using it as justification for rankings in spite of all the past integer going against them.
When Reality makes a critical mistake to lose the 3rd game and he gets worked by Zero I like to think the weight given to his semi-finals position would not be so heavily emphasized.
If this was just a weighting of statistics game, you could just go into the TLPD and run an algorithm of all of the games played in the month. But it isn't, which is why Best is not going to be #3 and Jaehoon isn't going to be #2. Jaedong hasn't looked good in a lot of his recent games so unless he demolishes everyone I personally can't see him being on the list since there are a lot of proleague heavy players doing exceptionally well.
A class / S class isn't just about % wins, especially not when you're considering a sample size of 10 games or less. Even if you win only 30% of your games the probability that you will go on a 10 game win streak over a career of 100 games is surprisingly high.
[Edit: I should clarify that the reason such streaks are not common place is several reasons, just to name a couple of them: 1. metagame is in constant change and 2. in general, the more you win the harder the opponent you will be asked to face.]
Want to talk results? Jaedong, for the second season in a row, dropped out at the semifinals. Reaching the semifinals for 2 seasons in a row is solid A-class by any standards. And despite his current troubles he is #3 on the win board in team league with 6 wins separating him from #4. #1 ZvT and ZvP unquestionably, for the first time in his career showing vulnerability in ZvZ (#3 by ELO?!). His recent win puts him back over 2200 ELO. And want to talk about quality of play? Try putting your finger on exactly what the problem is. It's definitely not mechanics. It's not strategy -- not really -- and it's not tactics. If I had to put my finger on it I would say that Jaedong has been having trouble controlling the flow of the game. In Starcraft you always want to have it so the other player is playing your game, so that you are pushing them towards a desirable result. that is where Jaedong seems to be having trouble. But if you look at any individual game... it's really hard to identify exactly what is going wrong.
It's weird how well a lot of the tosses are doing. Bisu is nearly elo peaking, movie is peaking , horang is peaking, best is 8-1, shuttle is 8-2, jangbi is 7-1, sun is 4-1, even anytime is on a 4 game win streak. Granted, a lot of those players have had easy schedules lately, but it is a good sign for the upcoming OSL.
On June 16 2011 14:02 hacklebeast wrote: It's weird how well a lot of the tosses are doing. Bisu is nearly elo peaking, movie is peaking , horang is peaking, best is 8-1, shuttle is 8-2, jangbi is 7-1, sun is 4-1, even anytime is on a 4 game win streak. Granted, a lot of those players have had easy schedules lately, but it is a good sign for the upcoming OSL.
Wait until they are eliminated by Zergs, except Bisu.
On June 16 2011 14:02 hacklebeast wrote: It's weird how well a lot of the tosses are doing. Bisu is nearly elo peaking, movie is peaking , horang is peaking, best is 8-1, shuttle is 8-2, jangbi is 7-1, sun is 4-1, even anytime is on a 4 game win streak. Granted, a lot of those players have had easy schedules lately, but it is a good sign for the upcoming OSL.
Wait until they are eliminated by Zergs, except Bisu.
On June 16 2011 14:02 hacklebeast wrote: It's weird how well a lot of the tosses are doing. Bisu is nearly elo peaking, movie is peaking , horang is peaking, best is 8-1, shuttle is 8-2, jangbi is 7-1, sun is 4-1, even anytime is on a 4 game win streak. Granted, a lot of those players have had easy schedules lately, but it is a good sign for the upcoming OSL.
Wait until they are eliminated by Zergs, except Bisu.
On June 16 2011 13:47 Mortality wrote: A class / S class isn't just about % wins, especially not when you're considering a sample size of 10 games or less. Even if you win only 30% of your games the probability that you will go on a 10 game win streak over a career of 100 games is surprisingly high.
[Edit: I should clarify that the reason such streaks are not common place is several reasons, just to name a couple of them: 1. metagame is in constant change and 2. in general, the more you win the harder the opponent you will be asked to face.]
Want to talk results? Jaedong, for the second season in a row, dropped out at the semifinals. Reaching the semifinals for 2 seasons in a row is solid A-class by any standards. And despite his current troubles he is #3 on the win board in team league with 6 wins separating him from #4. #1 ZvT and ZvP unquestionably, for the first time in his career showing vulnerability in ZvZ (#3 by ELO?!). His recent win puts him back over 2200 ELO. And want to talk about quality of play? Try putting your finger on exactly what the problem is. It's definitely not mechanics. It's not strategy -- not really -- and it's not tactics. If I had to put my finger on it I would say that Jaedong has been having trouble controlling the flow of the game. In Starcraft you always want to have it so the other player is playing your game, so that you are pushing them towards a desirable result. that is where Jaedong seems to be having trouble. But if you look at any individual game... it's really hard to identify exactly what is going wrong.
I disagree. I think his mechanics have some problems right now. Sure his macro is always fearsome, but his micro has become more sloppy. His multi-tasking might have also become more sloppy.
ZvZ, JD's ling micro is great, but his Muta Micro is in no way top notch. He needs to rework it. ZvP, JD's scourge/muta micro also needs some work. Yesterday, I saw Hyun vs Kal, and while Kal's sairs aren't Bisu's, they still got devastated by Hyun's flanking scourge. That was good micro on Hyun's part. JD vs Bisu ended up in JD basically suiciding 12 scourge for like 2 sairs at a time. Not ideal. That's possibly worse than Hyun's scourge micro. >_<
On June 16 2011 14:02 hacklebeast wrote: It's weird how well a lot of the tosses are doing. Bisu is nearly elo peaking, movie is peaking , horang is peaking, best is 8-1, shuttle is 8-2, jangbi is 7-1, sun is 4-1, even anytime is on a 4 game win streak. Granted, a lot of those players have had easy schedules lately, but it is a good sign for the upcoming OSL.
Wait until they are eliminated by Zergs, except Bisu.
On June 16 2011 14:02 hacklebeast wrote: It's weird how well a lot of the tosses are doing. Bisu is nearly elo peaking, movie is peaking , horang is peaking, best is 8-1, shuttle is 8-2, jangbi is 7-1, sun is 4-1, even anytime is on a 4 game win streak. Granted, a lot of those players have had easy schedules lately, but it is a good sign for the upcoming OSL.
Wait until they are eliminated by Zergs, except Bisu.
who'll be eliminated by a Terran.
I dont know, his performance this season suggest otherwise.. Unless that T is Flash, whos the only T i ll consider a favourite agaist Bisu at the moment.
On June 16 2011 13:47 Mortality wrote: A class / S class isn't just about % wins, especially not when you're considering a sample size of 10 games or less. Even if you win only 30% of your games the probability that you will go on a 10 game win streak over a career of 100 games is surprisingly high.
[Edit: I should clarify that the reason such streaks are not common place is several reasons, just to name a couple of them: 1. metagame is in constant change and 2. in general, the more you win the harder the opponent you will be asked to face.]
Want to talk results? Jaedong, for the second season in a row, dropped out at the semifinals. Reaching the semifinals for 2 seasons in a row is solid A-class by any standards. And despite his current troubles he is #3 on the win board in team league with 6 wins separating him from #4. #1 ZvT and ZvP unquestionably, for the first time in his career showing vulnerability in ZvZ (#3 by ELO?!). His recent win puts him back over 2200 ELO. And want to talk about quality of play? Try putting your finger on exactly what the problem is. It's definitely not mechanics. It's not strategy -- not really -- and it's not tactics. If I had to put my finger on it I would say that Jaedong has been having trouble controlling the flow of the game. In Starcraft you always want to have it so the other player is playing your game, so that you are pushing them towards a desirable result. that is where Jaedong seems to be having trouble. But if you look at any individual game... it's really hard to identify exactly what is going wrong.
I disagree. I think his mechanics have some problems right now. Sure his macro is always fearsome, but his micro has become more sloppy. His multi-tasking might have also become more sloppy.
ZvZ, JD's ling micro is great, but his Muta Micro is in no way top notch. He needs to rework it. ZvP, JD's scourge/muta micro also needs some work. Yesterday, I saw Hyun vs Kal, and while Kal's sairs aren't Bisu's, they still got devastated by Hyun's flanking scourge. That was good micro on Hyun's part. JD vs Bisu ended up in JD basically suiciding 12 scourge for like 2 sairs at a time. Not ideal. That's possibly worse than Hyun's scourge micro. >_<
Kal is nowhere close to Bisu in sair control. Nobody is. That's the difference that makes Bisu's PvZ so far beyond anybody else's. The last time Bisu and Jaedong met we saw possibly the best corsair use ever. And the time before that, Jaedong won the game because he managed to deny Bisu aerial domination, hence Bisu could not scout the lurkers morphing. And with regards to muta use in ZvZ... I don't think it's his micro precisely. With muta battles, choosing where and when to engage your opponent is more important than it is for ling battles, especially because of moving shot.
On June 16 2011 14:02 hacklebeast wrote: It's weird how well a lot of the tosses are doing. Bisu is nearly elo peaking, movie is peaking , horang is peaking, best is 8-1, shuttle is 8-2, jangbi is 7-1, sun is 4-1, even anytime is on a 4 game win streak. Granted, a lot of those players have had easy schedules lately, but it is a good sign for the upcoming OSL.
Wait until they are eliminated by Zergs, except Bisu.
who'll be eliminated by a Terran.
I dont know, his performance this season suggest otherwise.. Unless that T is Flash, whos the only T i ll consider a favourite agaist Bisu at the moment.
The top three TvPers are (like they have been for years) Flash, fantasy, and HiyA. I'd consider them all favorites against Bisu (HiyA a little less than the others although he's one of Bisu's 3 vT losses in PL) at the moment. Also, all three are seeded and Bisu's not, for whatever that's worth.
Hiya or Fanta could go either way. I don't really see them as favorite against Bisu, but I don't see them as underdogs either. Right now Bisu seems to be the strongest Protoss in all 3 matches.
I don't know how to say this (I don't want to) but JangBi might return to PR since I can remember. I might be hallucinating that JangBi is actually doing moderately well.
On June 17 2011 12:37 flamewheel wrote: And Horang2 is doing even better.
Horang has a win over current form JD and Bisu, but the rest of his wins are all over scrubs. After best's 2 flash wins he at least has some against other good players mind, bogus, and really.
And if we restrict it to just this month (as I think we should) than horang really is only playing the bottom of the barrel.
If we restrict ourselves to just this month then who exactly is Jaedong again?
The fallacy of the "let's restrict ourselves to just this month" argument is that you aren't restricting yourself to just this month: you are judging Horang2's opponents entirely by their past accomplishments. If we restrict ourselves to just this month then Horang2 is 4-0 against players who are 2-2, 0-1, 0-1 and 1-1 respectively. To give a comparison, Jaehoon is 4-0 against players who are 0-3, 0-1, 0-2, and 2-1. By this standard, there is no difference between beating Midas and beating Lazy (both of whom are 0-1 on the month).
PR ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS HAS TO BE REPEATED AGAIN looks at results in the context of history and qualitative in-game performance. Otherwise there is NO POINT AT ALL to having this ranking.
On June 17 2011 14:36 Mortality wrote: looks at results in the context of history and qualitative in-game performance. Otherwise there is NO POINT AT ALL to having this ranking.
Well, in the context of history, Best is most known for being an OSL finalist, and Horang2 is known for being the guy with a number in his name.
In game performance: Best's macro is one of the most beautiful things ever seen in a starcraft game. Horang's style is nondescript enough for me to not have anything to write here.
And If you are going to arbitrarily say that 3 months is recent, then I'm going to arbitrarily say 3 years is recent. Therefore best has a better record.
On June 16 2011 16:00 Vasoline73 wrote: Yellow for number one power rank imo. Good way to put a legend to rest :D
W..... T..... F.......
someone should slap you upside the head for this.
obviously Yellow should be placed in the NUMBER TWO spot!
Actually, I would put him as number one. He really deserves this spot in his career, at least once. It is quite sad that KT could not win him gold in the WL finals.
On June 16 2011 13:47 Mortality wrote: A class / S class isn't just about % wins, especially not when you're considering a sample size of 10 games or less. Even if you win only 30% of your games the probability that you will go on a 10 game win streak over a career of 100 games is surprisingly high.
They are both good now and both deserve a shot. They both failed in the OSL, but actually only 4 of the current 10 PR players have made it to the final 28 OSL players left.
This should definitely have some effect on Bisu's rank. There's no ''He would've gone all the way if he hadn't been forced to play Flash twice'' excuse here, is there? His strongest match-up, relatively bad player, Bo3.
On the other hand, which players are showing consistency enough to be placed above him?
On June 17 2011 14:36 Mortality wrote: looks at results in the context of history and qualitative in-game performance. Otherwise there is NO POINT AT ALL to having this ranking.
Well, in the context of history, Best is most known for being an OSL finalist, and Horang2 is known for being the guy with a number in his name.
How many YEARS ago was Best a finalist?
In the context of history Best has just broken from the worst slump of his career and had been an inch away from retirement. In the context of history, Best has only shown us that his strongest match has returned to form.
In the context of history, Horang2 has been a ferocious sniper who is now showing dominance in a second match.
And If you are going to arbitrarily say that 3 months is recent, then I'm going to arbitrarily say 3 years is recent. Therefore best has a better record.
Engage in fan wank elsewhere please. I like Best -- I argued for him on PR more than 3 years ago. But if you think the Best of today has proven himself to be the same as the Best of Ever 08 OSL then you are sadly delusional.
The point was that looking back 3 months and looking back 3 years are both stupid, and has no bearing on how they are doing now, unless your TBLS with years of history to float you after one lackluster month.
Hornag's 4-0 is worse than best's 4-0. His 9-1 is worse than best's 8-1. I'm not arguing horang shouldn't be on the list, just below best.
I have to question what we really know about how good pros really are. In April when Jaedong was a lock for #1 on PR and people were discussing if his zvt was the best of all times he said himself that he was in the worst form of his life. Then he drops a couple of games - mostly in zvz - and people think he should drop out entirely. Then he wins a strong game again and people think he is very good.... Maybe we are just clueless lol.
Well and that's why I though Bisu was too high. Yes, he is awesome in PL. Yes, he was really unlucky to meet Flash in MSL. But he hasn't done shit in individual leagues for ages and what does he do now, when he has the chance? Blow it in his strongest matchups.
Bisu nowadays is like Sea on steroids...damn it, I was really looking forward to his performance, I really like his PvZ. But it seems like we'll get another league full of boring ZvZ again.
On June 18 2011 06:45 hacklebeast wrote: The point was that looking back 3 months and looking back 3 years are both stupid, and has no bearing on how they are doing now, unless your TBLS with years of history to float you after one lackluster month.
Hornag's 4-0 is worse than best's 4-0. His 9-1 is worse than best's 8-1. I'm not arguing horang shouldn't be on the list, just below best.
Best just got knocked out of hte OSL in his marquee matchup by a Wemade B-list terran. That should settle this debate.
On June 18 2011 06:45 hacklebeast wrote: The point was that looking back 3 months and looking back 3 years are both stupid, and has no bearing on how they are doing now, unless your TBLS with years of history to float you after one lackluster month.
Hornag's 4-0 is worse than best's 4-0. His 9-1 is worse than best's 8-1. I'm not arguing horang shouldn't be on the list, just below best.
I see that you can argue that, on the month, BeSt's faced better players, because he has. Flash is a huge win, Bogus has been hot, and Grape and Really are okay. Wooki and Lazy are rookies and Much is older: Killer's Horang2's best win.
I don't buy the 9-1 being worse than the 8-1 though, for a few reasons. One is Bisu. Another is Jaedong. Another is Shuttle. Every one a win for Horang2 last month when the best BeSt beat was Really's 47% winrate. And for losses, Stork is better than TurN.
Also, it's not "9-1 worse than 8-1", it's 12-4 vs 8-1, or if we stick to Proleague, 11-3 vs 8-1. Horang2 has more losses, but also more wins - and I have no doubt that Horang2 would beat BeSt hollow, certainly in a BoX series.
Finally, Horang2 has been playing well for months now, which ordinarily means a player is cut more slack. BeSt showed up out of nowhere at the end of April. Horang2 is the best Protoss on his team, while BeSt plays a clear 2nd place. History doesn't just apply to TLBS, even though they're the most obvious beneficiaries: you play well for a long period, you get extra consideration.
In short, while there may be an argument to be made for BeSt, it's hardly the obvious ordering you consider it. It's also true that I'm probably a bigger fan of Horang2 than BeSt, so I'm going to look at things a little differently than you.
Hydra made it to the semis of the MSL, where he met Karma, and God. Karma wanted to bitch-slap him, but God decided to show him a little respect and simply curbstomped him. Still, he's gone 4-0 this past month, plus is the highest Zerg by ELO. This deserves some recognition.
2-3. Baby
Baby's gone 2-0 this month so far, beating Leta and Lomo. He also made it out of the OSL prelims scramble, which puts him ahead over other players like the perenially cursed Bisu. Leta's actually pretty good at TvT, too. If things continue he could get a top three spot.
More than that, though, is that he's cemented his place as the ace of WeMade Terran. TLers have wondered whether outside observers can really judge the performance of a player--this placement definitely means that at least to insiders, Baby is a force to reckon with.
More than that, though, Baby has potential, youth, and a powerful Terran legacy behind him--see his games against Flash, for example. Will this be his season to shine? Perhaps.
4-8. Hiya
Hiya has gone 4-0 in June and is in the OSL. He's beaten Stats, FBH, Mind, and Movie--a mixed bag of opposition, but no group of pushovers either (especially Stats, whose PvT is nothing to be laughed at). Of course, his TvT and TvZ have yet to be substantially tested. Still a good month, and if he keeps winning he could easily get to a 4-6 spot.
4-8. Bisu
Bisu is out of the OSL. Nihil novi sub sole. What is depressing though is that he does this while playing extremely well in PL. I wonder if this is due to a lack of coaching support he gets for individual leagues, which, coupled with his well-known weaknesses in coming up with new builds on his own (compared to say, Best, which Kingdom commented on) is leading him into a situation where he can't dominate without Oov teaching him new builds. This would be very, very bad, as it is essentially going to cap his development as a player.
4-8. Jaedong
Jaedong has had a rough June--easily the worst month of his career. Still, he beat Flash at ZvT, so that has to count for something. But where has he gone otherwise? His nigh unshakeable ZvZ is in a terrific losing streak, and his ZvP looks mortal, being challenged by Grape of all players.
4-8. Zero
Zero simply got outclassed by Flash. Still, losing to the Last Bonjwa doesn't mean very much, so his ranking here is mostly a result of getting knocked out of the OSL. Put frankly, Zero needs to quit the cuteness and pick up consistency if he wants to vault into the top tier of players.
6-10. Jangbi
Jangbi went 3-0 this past month and made it out of the OSL prelims. That's more than can be said of any other tosses still in the OSL. Given his past performance, it's safe to say that he has potential, and his recent record seems to show that he might be getting close to attaining it.
Can he and/or Stork bring back the legend by the time Fall rolls around?
8-10. Horang2
Horang2, like Best, is a one matchup wonder, but at least he has some meat to back him up.
8-10. Best
Best beat Flash (in a macro game, nonetheless) and took some tough losses to exit the OSL. Still, if you watch his games vs. Major, it's pretty apparant that he has some of the best tactical PvT game sense around (something Bisu would do well to learn from--just look at how Best managed to de-position Major's tank line over and over again on even bases vs. how Bisu lost 40 supply chasing a floating command center vs Flash.)
Having said that, what's holding Best back isn't the OSL placement, but big question marks floating over his PvZ and PvP. His PvZ, especially, is a major question mark, as he has never, ever demonstrated strength in the matchup, and in a season where Zergs are pretty thick, this places him at the mercy of the opposing team's sniping strategy.
8-10. Roro
Roro, likewise has gone 2-0 this month and made it into the OSL. But his opponents are not considered big names so he's still an unknown quantity. There was a time when he was a solid Zerg auxiliary to the WemadeTerran team, but his days of making people curse their FPL anti-teams are pretty distant. Still, kid's got potential.
On June 18 2011 01:43 Holgerius wrote: This should definitely have some effect on Bisu's rank. There's no ''He would've gone all the way if he hadn't been forced to play Flash twice'' excuse here, is there? His strongest match-up, relatively bad player, Bo3.
On the other hand, which players are showing consistency enough to be placed above him?
While its true that Bisu did not play as good as he normally does PvZ (losing sairs to often for instance, but this should also be credited to hyvvas superb scourge usage), this result was more decided by the fact that Hyvva played absolutely awesome these games. His troop movements, positioning and battle micro where all at a jaedong level and not the normal level we are used to seeing him.
On a more general note for all the players who dropped, it should be mentioned that this is the prelims, and that is a total different breed of games than your regular broadcasted matches. We constantly hear people talk in interviews about how their teammates are doing so well in practice but are not able to show it in broadcasted games, in the prelims however a lot of these people seem to be playing just way better (not the same pressure, lots of people around you and a more "familiar" environment). So while it might seem to people that the prelims should be a cake walk for the good players, the truth is actually that the prelims are a hard road as shown by both this prelims result and those of the past. Look for instance how Savior was the absolutely best player in the world, going back to back 5 MSL finals in a row, but was never able to get through the hell that is prelims in OSL. I mean you have to go trough several BO3s against unknown competition on a different rotation of maps against people who have nothing to lose and no pressure.
That said, dropping in the prelims should obviously have an impact on peoples PR ranks. However as I said, I think people are underestimating the prelims a lot, as history has shown us that its actually not an easy path.
On June 18 2011 06:45 hacklebeast wrote: The point was that looking back 3 months and looking back 3 years are both stupid, and has no bearing on how they are doing now, unless your TBLS with years of history to float you after one lackluster month.
Hornag's 4-0 is worse than best's 4-0. His 9-1 is worse than best's 8-1. I'm not arguing horang shouldn't be on the list, just below best.
I see that you can argue that, on the month, BeSt's faced better players, because he has. Flash is a huge win, Bogus has been hot, and Grape and Really are okay. Wooki and Lazy are rookies and Much is older: Killer's Horang2's best win.
I don't buy the 9-1 being worse than the 8-1 though, for a few reasons. One is Bisu. Another is Jaedong. Another is Shuttle. Every one a win for Horang2 last month when the best BeSt beat was Really's 47% winrate. And for losses, Stork is better than TurN.
Also, it's not "9-1 worse than 8-1", it's 12-4 vs 8-1, or if we stick to Proleague, 11-3 vs 8-1. Horang2 has more losses, but also more wins - and I have no doubt that Horang2 would beat BeSt hollow, certainly in a BoX series.
Finally, Horang2 has been playing well for months now, which ordinarily means a player is cut more slack. BeSt showed up out of nowhere at the end of April. Horang2 is the best Protoss on his team, while BeSt plays a clear 2nd place. History doesn't just apply to TLBS, even though they're the most obvious beneficiaries: you play well for a long period, you get extra consideration.
In short, while there may be an argument to be made for BeSt, it's hardly the obvious ordering you consider it. It's also true that I'm probably a bigger fan of Horang2 than BeSt, so I'm going to look at things a little differently than you.
The Bisu win was very good. The jaedong win I put a step below that because there are a lot of people getting wins off of JD recently, but I'm almost ok if you say it's equal to beating flash. But After both peoples higlight wins, Best played A teamers, and Horang played B teamers (the only other consistent A teamer is killer, who is certainly not one of the premiere A teamers). I was giving him a break, but if you want to include that extra 3-2, then we can add action to the a teamer as well, but the losses are more significant than the wins.
Horang has looked better for a loner period of time, but that's because best didn't play a game for over a month. How long do we hold something that he can't control over his head? We can fault him in the may rank because despite doing the most impressive thing he could possibly do in one game, it was still one game. We can even fault him in the june rank, because the sample size wasn't THAT large, and we still had doubts. But now it's getting silly, and we can focus on what he is doing now: beating the best player in the world.
And in responce to the post above yours: Horang lost 0-2 also in the prelims also to a b teamer also in his premiere MU.
In the month so far - just over half of a month - both players are 4-0. Both played 3 games in their best MU and one not; both beat Grape. BeSt's other wins are better, including a win over Flash. Both crashed in prelims.
I am saying, based on history, that Horang2 as of right now still holds the edge. It's very close, and on only the month BeSt has an edge, but he doesn't have great momentum, because his last month, while good, proves little.
On June 18 2011 10:50 hacklebeast wrote: The Bisu win was very good. The jaedong win I put a step below that because there are a lot of people getting wins off of JD recently, but I'm almost ok if you say it's equal to beating flash. But After both peoples higlight wins, Best played A teamers, and Horang played B teamers (the only other consistent A teamer is killer, who is certainly not one of the premiere A teamers). I was giving him a break, but if you want to include that extra 3-2, then we can add action to the a teamer as well, but the losses are more significant than the wins.
In the last month (May), Horang2 played Action, Iris, Shine, Pure, Jaedong, Bisu, and Shuttle and beat them all. Every single one of them is a Proleague regular, and Iris is the worst player on that list. Shuttle is Horang2's closest rival for top PvP. Bisu is Bisu. Pure's an A-teamer and his best MU is PvP. Shine we know about. Horang2 lost one game, to Stork - who admittedly is not doing very well but is still good.
In contrast, BeSt beat Saint, Really, and Mind in May. Saint is awful. Really is not that good. Mind is a good win, but that's it. Throwing in the loss to TurN, BeSt's May record simply doesn't compare to Horang2's.
On June 18 2011 10:50 hacklebeast wrote: Horang has looked better for a loner period of time, but that's because best didn't play a game for over a month. How long do we hold something that he can't control over his head? We can fault him in the may rank because despite doing the most impressive thing he could possibly do in one game, it was still one game.
How did he not control it? Sure, PL appearances aren't entirely up to him. Here's something that is: not losing in the MST. In addition to his PL games, Horang2 was in the MSL. Yes, in May, he lost to Grape in a 2-1 series. But BeSt got knocked out back in March by Classic (ridiculous!) and HoeJJa (excusable).
On June 18 2011 10:50 hacklebeast wrote: But now it's getting silly, and we can focus on what he is doing now: beating the best player in the world.
This is your case for BeSt. This is all you have to go on: he beat Flash (and yes, beat Flash twice in two months). Other than that, the recent history just doesn't stack up. You think beating Flash puts him ahead of Horang2. I think it doesn't, because Horang2's got similar marquee wins recently, he's been playing better longer, we haven't seen Horang2 play Flash – and maybe most importantly, I like Horang2 better than BeSt.
On June 18 2011 10:16 Yongtaek wrote: Potential rankings for June:
1. Flash
The next couple are a little less clear cut.
2-3. Hydra
Hydra made it to the semis of the MSL, where he met Karma, and God. Karma wanted to bitch-slap him, but God decided to show him a little respect and simply curbstomped him. Still, he's gone 4-0 this past month, plus is the highest Zerg by ELO. This deserves some recognition.
2-3. Baby
Baby's gone 2-0 this month so far, beating Leta and Lomo. He also made it out of the OSL prelims scramble, which puts him ahead over other players like the perenially cursed Bisu. Leta's actually pretty good at TvT, too. If things continue he could get a top three spot.
More than that, though, is that he's cemented his place as the ace of WeMade Terran. TLers have wondered whether outside observers can really judge the performance of a player--this placement definitely means that at least to insiders, Baby is a force to reckon with.
More than that, though, Baby has potential, youth, and a powerful Terran legacy behind him--see his games against Flash, for example. Will this be his season to shine? Perhaps.
4-8. Hiya
Hiya has gone 4-0 in June and is in the OSL. He's beaten Stats, FBH, Mind, and Movie--a mixed bag of opposition, but no group of pushovers either (especially Stats, whose PvT is nothing to be laughed at). Of course, his TvT and TvZ have yet to be substantially tested. Still a good month, and if he keeps winning he could easily get to a 4-6 spot.
4-8. Bisu
Bisu is out of the OSL. Nihil novi sub sole. What is depressing though is that he does this while playing extremely well in PL. I wonder if this is due to a lack of coaching support he gets for individual leagues, which, coupled with his well-known weaknesses in coming up with new builds on his own (compared to say, Best, which Kingdom commented on) is leading him into a situation where he can't dominate without Oov teaching him new builds. This would be very, very bad, as it is essentially going to cap his development as a player.
4-8. Jaedong
Jaedong has had a rough June--easily the worst month of his career. Still, he beat Flash at ZvT, so that has to count for something. But where has he gone otherwise? His nigh unshakeable ZvZ is in a terrific losing streak, and his ZvP looks mortal, being challenged by Grape of all players.
4-8. Zero
Zero simply got outclassed by Flash. Still, losing to the Last Bonjwa doesn't mean very much, so his ranking here is mostly a result of getting knocked out of the OSL. Put frankly, Zero needs to quit the cuteness and pick up consistency if he wants to vault into the top tier of players.
6-10. Jangbi
Jangbi went 3-0 this past month and made it out of the OSL prelims. That's more than can be said of any other tosses still in the OSL. Given his past performance, it's safe to say that he has potential, and his recent record seems to show that he might be getting close to attaining it.
Can he and/or Stork bring back the legend by the time Fall rolls around?
8-10. Horang2
Horang2, like Best, is a one matchup wonder, but at least he has some meat to back him up.
8-10. Best
Best beat Flash (in a macro game, nonetheless) and took some tough losses to exit the OSL. Still, if you watch his games vs. Major, it's pretty apparant that he has some of the best tactical PvT game sense around (something Bisu would do well to learn from--just look at how Best managed to de-position Major's tank line over and over again on even bases vs. how Bisu lost 40 supply chasing a floating command center vs Flash.)
Having said that, what's holding Best back isn't the OSL placement, but big question marks floating over his PvZ and PvP. His PvZ, especially, is a major question mark, as he has never, ever demonstrated strength in the matchup, and in a season where Zergs are pretty thick, this places him at the mercy of the opposing team's sniping strategy.
8-10. Roro
Roro, likewise has gone 2-0 this month and made it into the OSL. But his opponents are not considered big names so he's still an unknown quantity. There was a time when he was a solid Zerg auxiliary to the WemadeTerran team, but his days of making people curse their FPL anti-teams are pretty distant. Still, kid's got potential.
Nice joke... To put zero 8th????? he should be like 2nd or 3rd. and JD's Zvp looks mortal challenged by grape?? LOL Baby is way too high.
On June 18 2011 10:16 Yongtaek wrote: Potential rankings for June:
1. Flash
The next couple are a little less clear cut.
2-3. Hydra
Hydra made it to the semis of the MSL, where he met Karma, and God. Karma wanted to bitch-slap him, but God decided to show him a little respect and simply curbstomped him. Still, he's gone 4-0 this past month, plus is the highest Zerg by ELO. This deserves some recognition.
2-3. Baby
Baby's gone 2-0 this month so far, beating Leta and Lomo. He also made it out of the OSL prelims scramble, which puts him ahead over other players like the perenially cursed Bisu. Leta's actually pretty good at TvT, too. If things continue he could get a top three spot.
More than that, though, is that he's cemented his place as the ace of WeMade Terran. TLers have wondered whether outside observers can really judge the performance of a player--this placement definitely means that at least to insiders, Baby is a force to reckon with.
More than that, though, Baby has potential, youth, and a powerful Terran legacy behind him--see his games against Flash, for example. Will this be his season to shine? Perhaps.
4-8. Hiya
Hiya has gone 4-0 in June and is in the OSL. He's beaten Stats, FBH, Mind, and Movie--a mixed bag of opposition, but no group of pushovers either (especially Stats, whose PvT is nothing to be laughed at). Of course, his TvT and TvZ have yet to be substantially tested. Still a good month, and if he keeps winning he could easily get to a 4-6 spot.
4-8. Bisu
Bisu is out of the OSL. Nihil novi sub sole. What is depressing though is that he does this while playing extremely well in PL. I wonder if this is due to a lack of coaching support he gets for individual leagues, which, coupled with his well-known weaknesses in coming up with new builds on his own (compared to say, Best, which Kingdom commented on) is leading him into a situation where he can't dominate without Oov teaching him new builds. This would be very, very bad, as it is essentially going to cap his development as a player.
4-8. Jaedong
Jaedong has had a rough June--easily the worst month of his career. Still, he beat Flash at ZvT, so that has to count for something. But where has he gone otherwise? His nigh unshakeable ZvZ is in a terrific losing streak, and his ZvP looks mortal, being challenged by Grape of all players.
4-8. Zero
Zero simply got outclassed by Flash. Still, losing to the Last Bonjwa doesn't mean very much, so his ranking here is mostly a result of getting knocked out of the OSL. Put frankly, Zero needs to quit the cuteness and pick up consistency if he wants to vault into the top tier of players.
6-10. Jangbi
Jangbi went 3-0 this past month and made it out of the OSL prelims. That's more than can be said of any other tosses still in the OSL. Given his past performance, it's safe to say that he has potential, and his recent record seems to show that he might be getting close to attaining it.
Can he and/or Stork bring back the legend by the time Fall rolls around?
8-10. Horang2
Horang2, like Best, is a one matchup wonder, but at least he has some meat to back him up.
8-10. Best
Best beat Flash (in a macro game, nonetheless) and took some tough losses to exit the OSL. Still, if you watch his games vs. Major, it's pretty apparant that he has some of the best tactical PvT game sense around (something Bisu would do well to learn from--just look at how Best managed to de-position Major's tank line over and over again on even bases vs. how Bisu lost 40 supply chasing a floating command center vs Flash.)
Having said that, what's holding Best back isn't the OSL placement, but big question marks floating over his PvZ and PvP. His PvZ, especially, is a major question mark, as he has never, ever demonstrated strength in the matchup, and in a season where Zergs are pretty thick, this places him at the mercy of the opposing team's sniping strategy.
8-10. Roro
Roro, likewise has gone 2-0 this month and made it into the OSL. But his opponents are not considered big names so he's still an unknown quantity. There was a time when he was a solid Zerg auxiliary to the WemadeTerran team, but his days of making people curse their FPL anti-teams are pretty distant. Still, kid's got potential.
On June 18 2011 12:12 GolemMadness wrote: This OSL business is bizarre. Bisu loses against a bad zerg, Horang2 gets 2-0ed in PVP, Major trashes everyone... What is going on?!
Honestly prelims kinda suck.
You gotta win against a bunch of people in a row, you are lacking information about lots of your opponents' playstyle/opening build orders while the highly televised progamers have their matches available for study, and cheese is very likely.
Flash has only played Terrran and Zerg in the individual leagues so it's only natural that he has neglected his TvP somewhat. I fully expect him to refocus on it and bring it back up to the level we expect from him.
I think last time he lost it was after his and Jaedongs WCG korea final (and he then overtook it with the dual final win). Before that it was probably around the time Jaedong got his golden mouse.
On June 19 2011 01:05 FakePlasticLove wrote: Is Bisu's PL run the greatest proleague performance of alll time?!?
In statistics, yes, if you count the entire season anyway. Flash was 61-16 last season, and Bisu is 61-14 right now (so he could potentially still screw it up, but it's looking good at the moment).
If you are a bit more selective though Flash was 50-6 up until the last few months of last season, which is the best hot streak ever, by quite a bit.
On June 19 2011 01:40 Soap wrote: He isn't #1 not even in ELO anymore, LOL
Can you honestly make a legitimate claim for Bisu as #1, then?
Flash is 7-4 for the month, sweeping both Hydra and Zero 3-0 to take his 6th gold, while losing to, on average ,very good vT players (Shuttle and Reality could be argued to average, but have both had pretty good records vT recently). Bisu is 4-0 against pretty mediocre opponents, and got knocked out in the OSL prelims in his strongest matchup.
I don't want to bother talking about this Best/Horang2 thing any more since it's just going to give me blood pressure problems. Now that Best failed in the OSL prelims, unless Horang2 completely drops the ball for the rest of the month there is no reason why Best should be higher ranked. A player doing very well in 2 matches who has been successfully achieving a high win percentage over a longer period of time and better tournament results to his name automatically gets the nod over a player who can only play one match against any remotely competent opponent.
Regarding Flash I think what he needs is to take time off from Starcraft to heal. Nobody except Flash, his doctor and his coach know the 100% truth of his condition right now, but my own opinion from watching him and from having wrist problems myself is that when the chips are down he can bite the bullet and perform his best through painkillers and adrenalin, but the more he continues playing the more damage he is doing himself. I don't think it's a coincidence that Flash went 3-0 through both semifinals and finals of the MSL but is only 1-4 in PL. It's definitely not because his PL opponents were harder or played better than Hydra/Zero. Also, the more I think about it the more I think Flash was striving extra hard for that 3-0 result because if either series had made it to 5 games I think Flash would have lost. Not from skill, but from wrist problems. Both times he created a strategy to totally dictate the series from the outset, which speaks well not just for Flash but for his coaching staff and the teammates who supported him.
I hate the notion of the wrist problems becoming an excuse. Flash fanboys are insufferable enough as it is. It's just the reality that he shouldn't be playing in PL at all right now. He needs to be saving up his strength for the PL playoffs. Even if his team drops in the ranking I believe they are guaranteed a place right now so it is very silly for him to continue putting his body on the line. Depending on the nature of his injury it may go away (at least for a while) if he gives it a couple weeks to recover.
P.S. anyone who thinks Flash should not be #1 is delusional. He went 6-0 in MSL this month, winning the whole thing. That counts for a hell of a lot more than some random PL losses.
On June 19 2011 01:05 FakePlasticLove wrote: Is Bisu's PL run the greatest proleague performance of alll time?!?
Not really, Flash may have had fewer wins in PL last year than Bisu this year but I think there are a few things that make it less impressive:
1) Double WL - From 11 games to 18 games this year.
2) Flash was in all the finals for that year, won 4, AND put up that PL performance. Has Bisu even been in a RO8 this year, let alone a semis? I would expect Flash to have had like 80 wins in PL last year had he played the same individual schedule that Bisu has this year.
But Bisu definitely will take the win title this season and the way things are looking bring another PL championship to SKT.
On June 19 2011 02:15 Mortality wrote: A player doing very well in 2 matches who has been successfully achieving a high win percentage over a longer period of time and better tournament results to his name automatically gets the nod over a player who can only play one match against any remotely competent opponent.
In the march rankings Bisu, who only had impressive wins vs zerg that month, was ranked higher than stork, who had impressive wins vs both toss and terran, and had recently gotten OSL silver. Not to mention Stork beat him head to head twice.
On June 19 2011 01:05 FakePlasticLove wrote: Is Bisu's PL run the greatest proleague performance of alll time?!?
In statistics, yes, if you count the entire season anyway. Flash was 61-16 last season, and Bisu is 61-14 right now (so he could potentially still screw it up, but it's looking good at the moment).
If you are a bit more selective though Flash was 50-6 up until the last few months of last season, which is the best hot streak ever, by quite a bit.
On June 19 2011 01:40 Soap wrote: He isn't #1 not even in ELO anymore, LOL
Can you honestly make a legitimate claim for Bisu as #1, then?
Flash is 7-4 for the month, sweeping both Hydra and Zero 3-0 to take his 6th gold, while losing to, on average ,very good vT players (Shuttle and Reality could be argued to average, but have both had pretty good records vT recently). Bisu is 4-0 against pretty mediocre opponents, and got knocked out in the OSL prelims in his strongest matchup.
Or where you just joking?
The Flash vs. Hydra series was already accounted for in the May PR. Still, I think Flash deserves the number one spot. He won in a dominating fashion when it mattered, and even despite his current loss streak in PL, you still know that when the times comes (both in the playoffs and in the upcoming starleague), Flash is going to deliver. No other player inspires that level of confidence.
On June 19 2011 01:40 Soap wrote: He isn't #1 not even in ELO anymore, LOL
Can you honestly make a legitimate claim for Bisu as #1, then?
Flash is 7-4 for the month, sweeping both Hydra and Zero 3-0 to take his 6th gold, while losing to, on average ,very good vT players (Shuttle and Reality could be argued to average, but have both had pretty good records vT recently). Bisu is 4-0 against pretty mediocre opponents, and got knocked out in the OSL prelims in his strongest matchup.
Or where you just joking?
If 0-3 after MSL semis is enough to drop someone off the rank altogether, I'd expect that 1-4 after MSL win is not enough to hold #1.
I'd have trouble making a legitimate claim for Bisu as anything, he hasn't won something in what, 2 years? That's what I meant with it's gonna be a weird month, all of TBLS is sucking in a way or another.
On June 19 2011 01:40 Soap wrote: He isn't #1 not even in ELO anymore, LOL
Can you honestly make a legitimate claim for Bisu as #1, then?
Flash is 7-4 for the month, sweeping both Hydra and Zero 3-0 to take his 6th gold, while losing to, on average ,very good vT players (Shuttle and Reality could be argued to average, but have both had pretty good records vT recently). Bisu is 4-0 against pretty mediocre opponents, and got knocked out in the OSL prelims in his strongest matchup.
Or where you just joking?
If 0-3 after MSL semis is enough to drop someone off the rank altogether, I'd expect that 1-4 after MSL win is not enough to hold #1.
I'd have trouble making a legitimate claim for Bisu as anything, he hasn't won something in what, 2 years? That's what I meant with it's gonna be a weird month, all of TBLS is sucking in a way or another.
Well there's a pretty big difference between losing 1-3 in the semis and going 6-0 in semis+finals, so not really. Anyway I took your statement as an implication that you thought Bisu should be #1, which is the reason for my response, because he really shouldn't. It's true that it's been a bit of a weird month.
On June 19 2011 02:15 Mortality wrote: A player doing very well in 2 matches who has been successfully achieving a high win percentage over a longer period of time and better tournament results to his name automatically gets the nod over a player who can only play one match against any remotely competent opponent.
In the march rankings Bisu, who only had impressive wins vs zerg that month, was ranked higher than stork, who had impressive wins vs both toss and terran, and had recently gotten OSL silver. Not to mention Stork beat him head to head twice.
There is nothing automatic about the PR.
I'm getting tired of this. Are you trolling or are you seriously stupid?
What you just said isn't even true. Bisu's PvT was looking very solid. His only PvT loss was in a very good match against "Dragon Slayer" Hiya. Admittedly his PvP showed serious weakness to Stork and Kal but it's important to note that over a 6 month period those were the only 2 Protoss players to achieve wins over Bisu.
In contrast, Stork played 3 games against Terran that month. Win over Really is meh. Really is simply not the TvP giant he used to be (3 wins 11 losses in 2011: pathetic). Win over Flash was a cheese game. Yes it was a win over Flash, but pulling off an all-in just once doesn't prove anything. Loss to Sea due to greediness. Stork's PvP play actually was looking legitimately good, but he only played 3 games there as well and went 2-1.
The main thing that kept Stork so high in the ranking despite a 4-3 record in February (didn't you even realize what result you were citing?) was that Stork had partially redeemed himself right after his humiliating 0-6 drop in both leagues by beating Bisu and Fantasy (a result from January, not February). Bisu was 10-4 in February, trucking along quite steadily.
I just found a situation that contradicted your "automatic" situation. Stork had put of consistent results for a long time, he was beating 2 races, and he was doing well in individual leagues.
Bisu only beat good zergs that month (and horang2, but it was a lesser horang2 than what we have today). All of his terran wins were against bad people. Maybe if we had thrown on some good terrans he could have beat them, maybe not. His history really didn't show much, with one or two quality wins spanning back to august.
Maybe if we had thrown best some protosses he would have beat them, maybe not, but he hasn't done anything recently to suggest that he has horrible vP (or vZ for that matter).
On June 19 2011 06:49 hacklebeast wrote: I just found a situation that contradicted [Mortality's] "automatic" situation.
Except you didn't. Here's the situation given, edited by me:
On June 19 2011 02:15 Mortality wrote: A player (1) doing very well in 2 matches (2) who has been successfully achieving a high win percentage over a longer period of time and (3) better tournament results to his name automatically gets the nod over a player who can only play one match against any remotely competent opponent.
You cite the March PR, where Bisu's stellar month won out over Stork's silver legacy, so:
On June 19 2011 06:49 hacklebeast wrote: Stork had put of consistent results for a long time, he was beating 2 races, and he was doing well in individual leagues.
Bisu only beat good zergs that month (and horang2, but it was a lesser horang2 than what we have today). All of his terran wins were against bad people. Maybe if we had thrown on some good terrans he could have beat them, maybe not. His history really didn't show much, with one or two quality wins spanning back to august.
Maybe if we had thrown best some protosses he would have beat them, maybe not, but he hasn't done anything recently to suggest that he has horrible vP (or vZ for that matter).
Here's the difficulty. I didn't watch most of those games, so I can't speak to strength of play, but by my tally we have:
PvP: 2-1 (good win, win, good loss) PvT: 2-1 (good win, win, good loss) PvZ: 0-1 (good loss)
Normally a 4-3 record doesn't put you on the PR, but Stork's record of achievement, Starleague runs, and quality of opponent kept him on and kept him high. (Also the lack of anybody good that month - great and Killer on the PR???).
PvP: 3-2 (good win, 2 wins, two good losses) PvT: 3-1 (good win, 2 wins, good loss) PvZ: 4-1 (2 good wins, 2 wins, good loss)
A 10-4 record is PR material. Without Bisu being Bisu, he would have been lower due to lack of Starleague results (or if anybody had actually been good - see Stork).
Obviously, Stork didn't play as many games, partly due to KHAN's strategy of holding him in reserve where SKT could and did send Bisu earlier due to having fantasy + a half-decent Zerg line for a change. But when we look at the criteria Mortality gave, based on February record:
(1) doing very well in 2 matches - tie, edge Bisu (2) who has been successfully achieving a high win percentage over a longer period of time - ??? (3) better tournament results to his name - Stork
Even without checking #2, the criteria are split between the two players. Now let's check #2. For a decent idea, let's look at their 3-month records:
The edge goes to Bisu, with 76% wins to Stork's 70% on roughly the same number of games.
If we look at Proleague records as another indicator, Stork's 26-11 record is excellent (70%), but doesn't begin to touch Bisu's 42-8 (84%). Bisu takes it in a landslide.
So once again:
(1): tie, edge Bisu (2): Bisu (3): Stork
What you called a contradiction of the situation is actually one where Mortality's situation can't be applied because the criteria are split, but if we use the criteria anyway they favor the player who was ranked higher.
Now, as we've had several PR writers since 2006, and we've had several wtf??? PR moments (I'm looking at you, Flash), I'm sure you could find an exception to Mortality's "automatic" principle if you tried hard enough. But, one, given the subjective nature of the PR that doesn't prove the principle is wrong in general; two, sometimes unique circumstances override automatic principles, and three, the example you tried to give of an exception... wasn't.
(1) PvP was bisu's definite weakness over that time period, and no one argues against that. As for his vT, who was the good win? Reality was a rookie with ony 5 vP game prior, Frozen is just bad, and FBH hadn't sparked the run he is working on now yet, and vP has always been his weakness. Going specifically off of what he said, Stork needs to be doing "very well in 2 MUs" and he was. Bisu needs to "only be able to play one match again anyone remotely competent" And asides from one win over horang2 that holds true.
(2) it asked who had a good record longer. >70% are both good. Bisu has always been know as being more inconsistent (except as of late), but if you want something tangible, I just went back through past PRs to see who fell off first. It was bisu in Sept.
I brought it up because now multiple times mortality has brought up a seemingly arbitrary rule and just left it as if it was divine mandate. No explanation, no justification, just announcing that that's the way it is.
On June 18 2011 14:15 Soap wrote: Sooo out of TBLS
Bisu is 4-0 but didn't pass OSL prelims Jaedong is 2-3 and MSL semifinalist Flash is 1-4 and MSL winner Stork switched to smartphone games
Should be a weird month.
Not really, flash should be the clear #1. MSL win is just to big, on top that he has as many titles as nada.
Rest depends on the rest of the month.
He isn't #1 not even in ELO anymore, LOL
Only because OSL prelim losses don't count against Bisu (whereas they clearly are important for power rank)
Again, my point is not that Bisu is better, just that if your #1 spot depends on the opponent failing in prelims you're not that scary anymore.
Also KT plays CeeeeeeeeJay next, Flash is toast
As I said earlier I really don't think Flash should even be playing PL games. In a Bo5 the fate of the world on the line right now there is no one I would trust even half as much as Flash. But in my unprofessional opinion he is going to permanently shorten his career if he keeps playing random meaningless (as I said, I'm pretty sure KT has already qualified for playoffs) PL matches on a bum wrist.
Everyone who follows PR should know by now that I am in no way shape or form a Flash apologist but is there any other choice for #1? In a random PL match the scariest player is Bisu, by far. In an important SL final the scariest player is Flash, by far. If Bisu were still in OSL a strong argument could go for him. But he isn't so that's moot. Same argument covers Soulkey. Even if we ignore that Zero is out of OSL as well Flash just 3-0'd him. Hydra is still in (seed to Ro24) but was 3-0'd by Flash. Jaedong... with people talking of dropping him completely, that should be obvious. And no way in hell do I condone sticking someone who is just the "flavor of the month" in as Rank 1.
Edit: @hacklebeast I'm not going to waste time with this any longer. The fact that you are now trying to play games with semantics when it is abundantly clear what I mean is proof that you are either a troll or absurdly out of touch with reality and too obstinate to recognize it. I'm washing my hands of this. Just, barring significant results that change the picture (e.g. Best humiliating a competent Zerg), don't be surprised when flamewheel shits all over your dream ranking.
Wait, what is this whole Stork-Bisu arguement? Yeah the OSL pre-lims were embarrasing but considering Stork's recent preformance theres no way it should be Stork>Bisu.
And the Bisu vs Flash argument is stupid. Bisu still needs to get over his individual league slump before he can ever be above Flash, unless Flash really mucks it up. Bisu probably deserves a good 3-5th spot at this point.
If you didn't mean for it to be an unwavering rule, you probably shouldn't have bolded "automatically". From my "out of touch with reality" perspective, I thought that was an absolute.
I don't see where all the hostility is coming from. You make a statement, I show why I think it's wrong, you call me names. If you didn't want to talk about your opinions, then why post? If you think something I said was wrong, or "trollish" as you put it, let me know so I can explain where I'm coming from.
Shouldn't it be obvious that in real life a "rule" is not an absolute? By "automatic" I mean that if you violate this "rule" you better have an extremely compelling argument (and if you think your argument about Best qualifies as extremely compelling the words "out of touch with reality" repeat themselves). And obviously just finding an example of my "automatic" not holding doesn't make you correct because screw ups do happen. It's a rule that I can't punch someone in the dick during a soccer game but it's not hard to find painful clips of blind refs allowing such illegal moves.
And why am I hostile? Because you're being infuriating. Take a look at this from an outside perspective:
Your view both goes against consensus and is contrary to most commonly observed statistical indicators (ELO: Horang2 is higher and still rising, month-to-date record: same for both players, past 10 games: Horang2 is higher, 3 month record: Horang2 is higher, 6 month record: Horang2 is higher, 12 month record: Horang2 is higher, recent tournament results: Horang2 is higher, last 10 games per matchup: Best: 6-4 vT, 4-6 vZ, 5-5 vP, Horang2: 4-6 vT, 8-2 vZ, 7-3 vP -- Horang2 is higher). This doesn't necessarily mean that you're wrong, but it should suggest that if you wish to make a compelling argument then you need to bring a special insight to the table that argues why the player who on paper is better and is commonly viewed as better is in fact worse.
Here are your problems:
1. The entire premise of your argument is based on what I have already pointed out to be a logical fallacy. You want to say "let's forget everything except for this month."
Okay, let's do that. This month Flash is 0-2 against Protoss. So since we have forgotten EVERYTHING IN BROODWAR HISTORY except for this month, that means Flash has a 0% win record against Protoss.
The logical fallacy you are committing is saying "let's forget everything" and then using data from PRIOR to this month in order to gauge the level of competition. You cannot have it both ways. Either we look at record in context of history or we ignore history completely in which case we forget that Flash is an S-class player with the highest vP ELO of all time.
When I say "history" I clearly am putting increasing amount of weight on more recent results. A result from 1 month ago means more than a result from 2 months ago means more than a result from 3 months ago, etc. I do not totally forget everything. The fact that Best was once a superstar means that he can never be entirely written off. But the fact that he was suffering the WORST SLUMP of his career only just a couple months ago, a slump so bad he was thinking of QUITTING means we cannot just automatically assume that a few wins strung together means he's back in the form he was in during 2008.
2. Point one: A player has limited control over who he faces. Is Best only playing Terran because his team is utilizing him as a sniper or is he drawing Terran by random chance? We don't know. Did Horang2 deliberately choose "easy" opponents this month? I highly doubt that. If we want to look from a purely statistical viewpoint it doesn't make sense to penalize Horang2 just because his schedule this month is lighter than it was last month.
Point 2: There is random variation in terms of results, always. Sometimes on a bad month a good player will only go 50%, sometimes on a good month he will go 100%. Similarly, we SL isn't run monthly, so important matches may not necessarily "play nicely" with the PR schedule.
Combining Points 1 and 2, how do we interpret this random variation? The logical way to do this, the commonly accepted way by the overwhelming majority on this forum, is to think of this month's data in terms of how it jostles last month's ranking. We don't reassemble the ranking from scratch: we bump people up or we bump them down based on what this month shows us.
What this means is that when comparing Best and Horang2, if recent results are comparable I will look at more indicators to judge. I will go back further in time. I will look at what matchups are being played and who the opponents are. Rejecting this kind of comparison simply because you do not like how it makes your homeboy look is not acceptable. If you want to convince me that I shouldn't need to look at that then you need to show me something I've missed.
3. Regarding this special something, you should not be arguing out of TLPD, especially because the raw numbers TLPD spits back do not bode in favor of your argument.
I would have known this without even opening TLPD since I view TLPD almost every single day, usually multiple times during the course of a day. Typically when I post something in PR I have browsed through 10-20 different TLPD pages to help organize my thoughts. That you would continue with an argument of "Best's 8-1 means more" when I can look at TLPD myself and see the picture right away carries the implied insult that I am somehow to stupid to read the tables.
4. If you wish to seriously add to the discussion, then the burden of proof is on you. Most people clearly don't agree with you and TLPD clearly doesn't agree with you. You have to show us why what you say is true. Guys like me who like talking about this stuff and get excited about it can easily get suckered into doing all the work (that is, sorting through the numbers), but if all you're going to do is make a claim, wait for me to post A Giant Wall of Text like this post, and then play semantics with what I write then I'm not going to be happy with you because you aren't adding to the discussion like that. If you think playing semantics with me is "showing me why I'm wrong" then you need to think about why I write what I write (hint: not to perfect my literary ability) and how I'll feel after having taken the time to write A Giant Wall of Text. If something's not clear, ask. You'll get another Giant Wall of Text. Probably.
Contrary to what you may think I am perfectly willing to listen to a logical argument. I've changed my opinions before. But every indicator is against you and all you are doing is casually dismissing Horang2's opponents despite all he's been doing lately and hyping up Best's opponents when the only good ones were all Terran and I'm still uneasy about saying Best's slump is over. People said it was over last year during the PL playoffs and then 6 months later he's slumping harder than ever. Show me solid evidence that will not happen again if you want to convince me that Best is back.
There. All that. A Wall of Text explanation is my way of apologizing for saying harsh words.
On June 18 2011 12:12 GolemMadness wrote: This OSL business is bizarre. Bisu loses against a bad zerg, Horang2 gets 2-0ed in PVP, Major trashes everyone... What is going on?!
Honestly prelims kinda suck.
You gotta win against a bunch of people in a row, you are lacking information about lots of your opponents' playstyle/opening build orders while the highly televised progamers have their matches available for study, and cheese is very likely.
You would really not be saying this if you actually watched Bisu's Bo3 against Hyvaa in the prelims.
(Yes, he got beaten by Hyvaa who is <50% vs Protoss in a straight up match!)
On June 18 2011 12:12 GolemMadness wrote: This OSL business is bizarre. Bisu loses against a bad zerg, Horang2 gets 2-0ed in PVP, Major trashes everyone... What is going on?!
Honestly prelims kinda suck.
You gotta win against a bunch of people in a row, you are lacking information about lots of your opponents' playstyle/opening build orders while the highly televised progamers have their matches available for study, and cheese is very likely.
You would really not be saying this if you actually watched Bisu's Bo3 against Hyvaa in the prelims.
(Yes, he got beaten by Hyvaa who is <50% vs Protoss in a straight up match!)
Did YOU watch the games?
Because 5pool into 3hatch speedlings and 3hatch hydra bust is not what I consider straight up play at least. Just because the games turned out somewhat normally in the mid\lategame, did NOT mean they started out as straight up games, Hyvva was cheesing like his life was depending on it in the first 2 games...
Sure hyvva played exceptionally well, and did beat bisu soundly in a straight up game in game3, but game1 that he won was nothing straight up, hell Bisu lost like a gazillion probes defending the 3hatch ling all in. That game was just an anomaly of an all in that somehow actually turned out somewhat even, tho I think hyvva might have had an advantage after killing all those probes.
On June 18 2011 12:12 GolemMadness wrote: This OSL business is bizarre. Bisu loses against a bad zerg, Horang2 gets 2-0ed in PVP, Major trashes everyone... What is going on?!
Honestly prelims kinda suck.
You gotta win against a bunch of people in a row, you are lacking information about lots of your opponents' playstyle/opening build orders while the highly televised progamers have their matches available for study, and cheese is very likely.
You would really not be saying this if you actually watched Bisu's Bo3 against Hyvaa in the prelims.
(Yes, he got beaten by Hyvaa who is <50% vs Protoss in a straight up match!)
So finally cheesing is becoming straight up? Hum... interesting.
And i read some (not all) of the Bisu - Stork arguement and there is really no reason, Stork should be above Bisu, honestly there are not many ppl I would rank above Bisu this month and Stork is not one of them.
Game 1 was not a ling all-in (if you're talking about the second attack). After the 5 pool which Bisu defended fine (leaving them both even), what made a difference was a second ling wave that Bisu was not ready for, and cost him a fair bit. It was not all-in since hyvaa was on 3 base at the time with good econ. The reason he made a couple rounds of lings was because his spire timing (which was later than usual due to his opening), he had larva and minerals to burn while his spire was morphing. Bisu did lose that game straight up in their encounters, he got careless with his sair fleet, wasn't able to storm drop as usual, and got every one of his storms dodged nicely by the hydras. Even going dts every single game didn't save him.
He lost game 1 in the macro stage while he was on 3 base econ and had a large army (just not properly used), not because of cheese. He also lost game 3 straight up, because he got greedy and tried to double expo while his army was out of position and got punished for it.
On June 19 2011 19:10 moopie wrote: Game 1 was not a ling all-in (if you're talking about the second attack). After the 5 pool which Bisu defended fine (leaving them both even), what made a difference was a second ling wave that Bisu was not ready for, and cost him a fair bit. It was not all-in since hyvaa was on 3 base at the time with good econ, had lair and was waiting on a spire (which was later than usual because of the opening). Bisu did lose that game straight up in their encounters, he got careless with his sair fleet, wasnt able to storm drop as usual, and got every one of his storms dodged nicely. Even going dts every single game didn't save him.
He lost game 1 in the macro stage while he was on 3 base econ and had a large army (just not properly used), not because of cheese. He also lost game 3 straight up, because he got greedy and tried to double expo while his army was out of position and got punished for it.
Seriously what planet are you from? An attack that kills 12+ (probably closer to 20ish) probes and stops mining time + wrecks total havoc forcing canceling of cannons\pylons etc and then afterward leaves you at an EVEN game is NOT considered an all in?!?!? If bisu`s zeals are on hold position in his choke when those lings arrive instead of roaming around outside his natural hyvva would have been absolutely steamrolled in a few minutes. Hell I don`t even think he had started his spire when the first sair was out....
I have to ask, what do you consider an all in? Sending your first 4 drones to attack?
What you're missing is that his spire wasn't late because of the 2nd wave of lings, they were late because his tech as a whole was late because of the 5 pool.
On June 19 2011 19:30 moopie wrote: What you're missing is that his spire wasn't late because of the 2nd wave of lings, they were late because his tech as a whole was late because of the 5 pool.
When have I ever suggested otherwise? I was merely pointing out how ridiculously far behind Hyvva would have been if his ling all in had failed. No tech, no drones, no eco, just 3 hatches, basically he was completely shafted if he didnt do massive amounts of damage with the lings, and still you don`t consider it an all in...
...I'll say it again then.. I am not disputing that 5 pool is an all-in, I specifically stated his 2nd ling attack. The 5 pool is not what won him the game, it did work well enough to keep them both even (hyvaa's econ was shit, but bisu lost a few probes, mining time and was forced cannons in main). What came after (that 2nd attack) was not all-in in any way.
After the 5 pool was blocked, Bisu took his nat, and hyvaa put down his nat and his 3rd. hyvaa immediately got his main gas, then went lair, then started his spire. Since his gas was later than bisu (due to opening 5 pool), his spire was later than usual in comparison to the stargate. In the meanwhile, since he had minerals saved up and unused larva, he made a couple rounds of lings. Bisu wasn't ready for it, and defended poorly, but hyvaa was teching the entire time. The lings were not an all-in at that point because Bisu was not ready to push out with his zealots yet (so hyvaa was in no immediate danger like you imply), nor did hyvaa sacrifice econ or tech to make that attack. He simply had a window where he had spare larva + minerals and not much else to do with them until the spire finished. The spire timing was not delayed because of the second ling wave.
and fyi, when the first sair came out his spire was already morphing.
On June 18 2011 12:12 GolemMadness wrote: This OSL business is bizarre. Bisu loses against a bad zerg, Horang2 gets 2-0ed in PVP, Major trashes everyone... What is going on?!
Honestly prelims kinda suck.
You gotta win against a bunch of people in a row, you are lacking information about lots of your opponents' playstyle/opening build orders while the highly televised progamers have their matches available for study, and cheese is very likely.
You would really not be saying this if you actually watched Bisu's Bo3 against Hyvaa in the prelims.
(Yes, he got beaten by Hyvaa who is <50% vs Protoss in a straight up match!)
Did YOU watch the games?
Because 5pool into 3hatch speedlings and 3hatch hydra bust is not what I consider straight up play at least. Just because the games turned out somewhat normally in the mid\lategame, did NOT mean they started out as straight up games, Hyvva was cheesing like his life was depending on it in the first 2 games...
Sure hyvva played exceptionally well, and did beat bisu soundly in a straight up game in game3, but game1 that he won was nothing straight up, hell Bisu lost like a gazillion probes defending the 3hatch ling all in. That game was just an anomaly of an all in that somehow actually turned out somewhat even, tho I think hyvva might have had an advantage after killing all those probes.
As I see it, and from what you have said before, there are three things that horang2 has going for him: 1. better tournament results, 2. a longer run, and 3. playing all the races.
1. Horang2 has reached one round of 16 in his entire career. That alone isn't very impressive. Combined with the fact that it didn't happen this month, and the games that got him there were against one of the weaker groups that MSL, and were two months ago, I give it next to no value.
2. Horang has been putting up better results longer, but the results aren't as good as they are now. He wasn't going undefeated like this month, or 90% like the streak he is on now. The fact that he is playing mostly bad opponents isn't his fault, but he needs to step up and put up better results if he is. I was taking his 9-1 out of courtesy for him because I think that the 5-4 that goes to the end of April is a reason against him. Is 5-4 vs bad people worse than 0-0? I think it is, but even if you think it isn't, then barely above .500 combined with over 2 months ago means once again it is a non issue.
3. Well, there isn't anything I can say to this other than Iris is about as good as grape, so horang has the same issue in one MU. But I don't remember this being an issue before.
So #3 is the only thing that is relevant in my eyes, and I want to compare that to Best playing better opponents. Both are out of the player's control, and both leave something to be desired in terms of proving themselves. At the end of the day though I think that playing better opponents is more inportant.
So that, combined with I think Best's in game play is better (which I don't value terribly much to begin with, and that I really can't defend other than to say I think it is) is why I think Best should be ranked higher.
I don't think that best is up to 08 levels, but I don't think it matters how good he was in the past. It is long ago enough to not help him, and I don't see how having a good past can be a detriment. Maybe in a different month he would need to be in 08 form to qualify for a top 5 spot, but this month is a weak month. Fantasy stork and (maybe) JD are just gone, zero has fallen apart, and almost everyone else failed at the OSL prelims. Best is coming off of a slump, and he may go into another one in July, but it doesn't diminish what he is doing now.
I don't know why you're trying to insist that Best is better on paper than Horang2 when as I pointed out almost every indicator says he's not. And if you aren't confident defending his game play in a court of law and the results are obviously against you then how the fuck do you expect to convince anybody? :/
The statement that he's played better players is not even true. People have been telling you that it's not true and you aren't taking the hint. Jaedong is #1 ZvP, Bisu is #2 PvP, Shuttle is #3 PvP, all 3 are in the top 7 overall vP by ELO. Best's only opponent in the top 10 vP by ELO has been Flash. Bogus and Mind are both floating around 2100 TvP by ELO, which is good but not great. The loss to Turn who is under 2000 in TvP ELO is embarrassing -- even a slumping Stork is around 2100 PvP ELO. Right now Really is TRASH at TvP with only 3 wins in his last 15 games, which you'd know with even a glance at TLPD. Saint has the 4th lowest vP ELO of ANYONE in ALL of progaming.
Basically, Best has only 4 wins over competent players and only 2 wins over a superstar, both over the same superstar in the same match. His only loss was to a very low level vP player. That's the extent of Best's record.
Horang2 has 3 wins over high level competitors, 2 wins and a loss over mid-carders on his current streak.
Prior to the current streaks -- which ARE COMPARABLE with an edge to Horang2 due to diversity of opponents -- Best had a horrible loss record. 6 losses in a row with the only good vP player being Stats (who was on fire at the time) and the rest being mostly trash. Horang2 had a record of 11-5 starting from early March leading up to his streak, which is incomparably better. And while Horang2 "only" made Ro16 (admittedly losing to a player he had no business losing to), Best wasn't even making it past offline prelims.
You. Are. Wrong. Best has to PROVE he is not just a flavor of the month. He has not. End of story.
Edit: PS, the reason Best went 0-0 for a month was that he was kicked off the A team. So yes, going 0-0 would be worse than going 5-4. Anyone who plays in Proleague is BY DEFINITION a member of their team's A team. "A team" should not be confused with "A class," which is another mistake you seem to have made. And speaking of mistakes, your numbers are wrong anyway. Horang2 went 3-2 during April, which is why he was kicked off the PR that month.
I just noticed that Flash and Jaedong have played as many standard games against each other as Boxer and Yellow, 43 (though of course Boxer and Yellow has played about 15 more unofficial games). Does anyone know if any pair of players have a higher head-to-head count, or are Flash and Jaedong close to breaking a record in that regard?
On June 20 2011 07:41 Cpadolf wrote: I just noticed that Flash and Jaedong have played as many standard games against each other as Boxer and Yellow, 43 (though of course Boxer and Yellow has played about 15 more unofficial games). Does anyone know if any pair of players have a higher head-to-head count, or are Flash and Jaedong close to breaking a record in that regard?
That is an interesting statistic, one that I had been wondering about myself. So many pro gamers didn't or won't even play that many games, let alone against the same guy that many times. It would be really cool to see the number of times all the rivalries had played between one another.
On June 18 2011 12:12 GolemMadness wrote: This OSL business is bizarre. Bisu loses against a bad zerg, Horang2 gets 2-0ed in PVP, Major trashes everyone... What is going on?!
Honestly prelims kinda suck.
You gotta win against a bunch of people in a row, you are lacking information about lots of your opponents' playstyle/opening build orders while the highly televised progamers have their matches available for study, and cheese is very likely.
You would really not be saying this if you actually watched Bisu's Bo3 against Hyvaa in the prelims.
(Yes, he got beaten by Hyvaa who is <50% vs Protoss in a straight up match!)
Did YOU watch the games?
Because 5pool into 3hatch speedlings and 3hatch hydra bust is not what I consider straight up play at least. Just because the games turned out somewhat normally in the mid\lategame, did NOT mean they started out as straight up games, Hyvva was cheesing like his life was depending on it in the first 2 games...
Sure hyvva played exceptionally well, and did beat bisu soundly in a straight up game in game3, but game1 that he won was nothing straight up, hell Bisu lost like a gazillion probes defending the 3hatch ling all in. That game was just an anomaly of an all in that somehow actually turned out somewhat even, tho I think hyvva might have had an advantage after killing all those probes.
Ahem..>_> Need I say more?
Oops my mistake, read it as all the games since you mentioned the entire BO3 first, and not as the single game you point out in the end.
On June 20 2011 07:41 Cpadolf wrote: I just noticed that Flash and Jaedong have played as many standard games against each other as Boxer and Yellow, 43 (though of course Boxer and Yellow has played about 15 more unofficial games). Does anyone know if any pair of players have a higher head-to-head count, or are Flash and Jaedong close to breaking a record in that regard?
This is a great stat. Just a note about this, Flash and Jaedong overall play many more games than in the Boxer / Yellow era. It is kind of like how baseball plays 162 games now, rather than 154 (though the BW difference is much higher).
On June 20 2011 19:35 Iplaythings wrote: Flamewheel can I reqeust that bisu recieves his slump rightful spot at top of the PR?
Given that Bisu managed to lose in prelims while Flash/JD will probably advance in ODT, I'm guessing not. I'm not flamewheel though. Unless Flash keeps losing in PL/JD goes back to losing.
On June 20 2011 19:35 Iplaythings wrote: Flamewheel can I reqeust that bisu recieves his slump rightful spot at top of the PR?
Given that Bisu managed to lose in prelims while Flash/JD will probably advance in ODT, I'm guessing not. I'm not flamewheel though. Unless Flash keeps losing in PL/JD goes back to losing.
He's referring to Flamewheel's PR #1 curse, VGhost.
Haha, can't believe Flash lost again. He's totally still #1 though. Remember when JD went 0-3 in the PL finals, proceeded to get knocked out of MSL a couple of days later, but won the Golden Mouse/second consecutive OSL and was pretty much undisputed at the top of the PR anyway? That was sort of like this, except Flash's losses are less important games and his achievement is even greater in a historical perspective.
It's sad that Flash's play has fallen but no one has risen to take up the mantle. Who else could be #1 besides Flash at this point?
Bisu? Knocked out of OSL. Jaedong? Just had a slump. Still looking fragile. Hydra? Not after getting dominated by Flash 0-3 Zero? See Hydra Horang2? Knocked out of OSL. Bogus? Still an up and comer. What has he done to match MSL finals domination? Nothing.
So yeah, Flash seems to still easily be the #1 pick this month. No need to worry Holgerius.
I think the upcoming OSL match will decide once and for all if Flash should be #1 or not. If he makes it out, he should be #1. If he doesn't, he shouldn't be #1. Flash's losing streak won't be too big of a factor if he can prove that he can still when it counts (which I believe he will). These proleague matches aren't particularly relevant as far as the top 3 teams are considered.
On the other hand, if Flash is eliminated and if Jaedong destroys his group the same way he did with the MSL group of death and also goes on to help his team make the playoffs, I would give the #1 spot to Jaedong despite how he did at the beginning of this month (and the MSL elimination was already accounted for in the last month).
^ I was just coming in here to post the same thing. I think that the OSL group A qualifiers are going to cement who belongs where (as much as possible) for this month. I'm really shocked at Flash losing 5 pl games in a row...
As much as I've been forced to argue for Horang2, there is no way, NO FUCKING WAY he deserves #1.
What I don't understand is... what the hell is going on in KT house? They have 30 wins in PL. The #4 ranked team has what, 24 wins? That means unless they lose every single match they are going to end the season as #3. In terms of what that means for the playoffs, there's no difference between ending as #3 and ending as #4 - #6 and there is mathematically NO WAY for them to drop out of the top 6. Likewise, they are not going to move up. Not when CJ is playing this strong and SKT1 is playing this strong. Not happening. So again, WHY are they playing Flash? Either the coaching staff has lost all its sense or Flash's wrist problems are a lie. Because you don't play someone who is injured in a game that doesn't actually matter.
As far as ranking, still a bit early to give anything too precise. I'm thinking of something like this:
1. Flash - MSL winner, even if he's playing like garbage in PL, there's no one in the world more dangerous 2. Bisu - the new #1 ranked by ELO, would be #1 had he made it past the OSL offline prelims 3. Hydra - kid is TEARING IT UP. #1 ranked Zerg by ELO and rising. 4-8. Soulkey, Movie, Horang2, Jaedong (you may notice that is only 7 names... I'm allowing for some overlap of categories) 6-10. Best (this is only 8 names, leaving two spots blank TBD based on rest of month) 9-10 + CBNC: Bogus, Stats, Jaehoon, Soo, Zero, Light, Roro
Things I'm looking to see from certain players: -Zero I've put in CBNC for now. I feel awkward doing this to a finalist but other than a win over Fantasy there's nothing of note on his record and Fantasy is struggling at TvZ right now. -Best and Soo need to show me they aren't just one match wonders. -Movie's PvZ right now is absolutely stellar and I think his PvT may be a bit stronger then it looks on paper (consider WHO he's lost to and hows been playing), but I have some concerns over his PvP. -Roro has been tearing through.... weak players. To his credit he 2-0'd Movie to secure his ODT spot. But other than that... 4 wins over scrubs after a 5 game loss streak? -Jaehoon at first glance has been ripping it up, but the players he's been beating (e.g. Midas, Free, Calm) have been struggling a bit against Protoss right now. If this were a few months ago it would be a different story. -Light has been actually doing well against Protoss lately. Unfortunately he's dropping the ball on Terran. I want to see more strength demonstrated in TvT. -Zero hasn't really been bad this month despite what his record looks like and it's kind of unfair to hold his record against him when Flash was in God Mode.
Hydra #3? No, just no. Apart from his victory against a slumping Flash on a zerg favored map with the best possible map positions, he's beaten Princess, ggaemo, Hyun and Mind. Mind is decent but the rest are all pretty bad/mediocre at ZvZ. Let's not forget that he's just coming out of a 0-3 loss against Flash. To his credit, he's still in the OSL which is not something that can be said for several of the other PR contenders this month, but that's because he didn't have to go through the preliminaries. Also, he's got the advantage of being part of an extremely strong and varied lineup of players.
I would much rather see Jangbi in the #3 spot who is 12-2 with a perfect PL record and also making it out the qualifiers beating Zero and Leta in the process. It's true that his stats are padded up a bit by beating not so great players like Roo, Sang, and Sharp but it's not like they're amateurs or unknown B team players.
1) Hoejja. Who deserves PR #1 anyway? Bisu getting killed in prelims while Flash getting killed repeatedly in Proleague? Screw that, neither of these guys is worthy. PR#1 should clearly go to Hoejja who has suddenly gone on a 5-win vP streak and is getting wins in PL while all his teammates are failing in one way or another. Such an improvement! 2) Yellow. Later dude, GL in life 3-4) Flash and Bisu, I really don't care what order. Maybe if Flash 2-0s his OSL group... 5-10) Probably some CJ folks go here, in some order, and JD? Best? Maybe SK?
P7GAB's been beasting it up, maybe not power rank level yet, but he's getting up there. Maybe a serious contender for a lower spot in the upcoming months!!
P7GAB's been beasting it up, maybe not power rank level yet, but he's getting up there. Maybe a serious contender for a lower spot in the upcoming months!!
Jangbi deserves some props for escaping as a wildcard, but other than a couple bo1 wins over Zero and Leta to earn that spot he has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The only other remotely competent vP player he has faced was Hyuk.
Don't pad resumes with prelim matches. Prelims are a total crap-shoot.
On June 21 2011 08:04 aupstar wrote: This season's MSL was extra hard too imo because there was no OSL to practice for.
I'd say it was a bit easier for that reason. Few people besides Flash usually get deep in both tournaments, so he's often at a disadvantage due to that in the later stages. But not this time.
On June 21 2011 08:04 aupstar wrote: This season's MSL was extra hard too imo because there was no OSL to practice for.
I'd say it was a bit easier for that reason. Few people besides Flash usually get deep in both tournaments, so he's often at a disadvantage due to that in the later stages. But not this time.
Agreed. Only twice in history has a player won both leagues at the same time:
NaDa-Chojja OSL / NaDa-Chojja MSL
and
Flash-Jaedong OSL / Flash-Jaedong MSL
It's a bit easier to prepare when you are facing the same opponent twice. In the case of NaDa, it was actually 3 SL's in the same season since GhemTV ran a third Starleague, but the dates for GhemTV SL were such that the later stages of that tournament were played after both OSL and MSL were over. (Interesting fact: Chojja was third place in GhemTV SL that season... potentially we could have seen NaDa whooping on Chojja in all 3 finals :p).
On June 21 2011 05:43 Mortality wrote: Jangbi deserves some props for escaping as a wildcard, but other than a couple bo1 wins over Zero and Leta to earn that spot he has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The only other remotely competent vP player he has faced was Hyuk.
Don't pad resumes with prelim matches. Prelims are a total crap-shoot.
Tell that to Bisu...
But seriously, I often heard of progamers being the most nervous in those offline tournaments and how they never want to go back to "PC Bang" (korean progamer slang for prelims) again.
On June 21 2011 03:21 Holgerius wrote: Hydra is actually on a 10 game winning streak.
Ya, I don't think it's fair to count games vs Flash in God-mode.
I really want to assume you're joking here.
On the off-chance you're not - as I recall, there were worries about Hydra but a number of people thought he'd put up a fight - he didn't; ZerO actually was given a pretty good shot by a lot of people (given that last proleague game) and then Flash rolled out with a shiny crisped-up build and demolished him (even though he played well in the first couple games, he just wasn't prepared).
On June 21 2011 05:43 Mortality wrote: Jangbi deserves some props for escaping as a wildcard, but other than a couple bo1 wins over Zero and Leta to earn that spot he has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The only other remotely competent vP player he has faced was Hyuk.
Don't pad resumes with prelim matches. Prelims are a total crap-shoot.
Tell that to Bisu...
But seriously, I often heard of progamers being the most nervous in those offline tournaments and how they never want to go back to "PC Bang" (korean progamer slang for prelims) again.
Bisu has had a fairly easy month, true, but his dominance has been perpetual for about 6 months. Jangbi has been dealing with a "King of Losers" reputation that he needs to overcome. PvT used to be his best match but now he only has 2 wins in his past 14.
The thing about prelim matches is that the skill of your opponents is too variable. You can't really just say "oh, he went 8-2 in that tournament" because 9-2 in prelims means nothing compared to 9-2 in even PL, let alone SL. Really Jangbi only played 4 games against opponents who have solidly demonstrated competence vP (Zero, Leta, Soo) and went 2-2. The difference between an A teamer and a B teamer or even just a rookie who has played about 10 games on A team is enormous.
On June 21 2011 03:21 Holgerius wrote: Hydra is actually on a 10 game winning streak.
Ya, I don't think it's fair to count games vs Flash in God-mode.
I really want to assume you're joking here.
On the off-chance you're not - as I recall, there were worries about Hydra but a number of people thought he'd put up a fight - he didn't; ZerO actually was given a pretty good shot by a lot of people (given that last proleague game) and then Flash rolled out with a shiny crisped-up build and demolished him (even though he played well in the first couple games, he just wasn't prepared).
I'm not really joking; what I mean is you can't really hold losses vs Flash when he's playing like that against someone.
On June 21 2011 03:21 Holgerius wrote: Hydra is actually on a 10 game winning streak.
Ya, I don't think it's fair to count games vs Flash in God-mode.
I really want to assume you're joking here.
On the off-chance you're not - as I recall, there were worries about Hydra but a number of people thought he'd put up a fight - he didn't; ZerO actually was given a pretty good shot by a lot of people (given that last proleague game) and then Flash rolled out with a shiny crisped-up build and demolished him (even though he played well in the first couple games, he just wasn't prepared).
I'm not really joking; what I mean is you can't really hold losses vs Flash when he's playing like that against someone.
Flash played extremely well, but Hydra just rolled over. It wasn't even specially prepared builds. It was just perfectly executed standard builds. :/ I'd hold it against him, but Idk if that even counts as this month. After that, Hydra has been having a great month.
On June 21 2011 03:21 Holgerius wrote: Hydra is actually on a 10 game winning streak.
Ya, I don't think it's fair to count games vs Flash in God-mode.
I really want to assume you're joking here.
On the off-chance you're not - as I recall, there were worries about Hydra but a number of people thought he'd put up a fight - he didn't; ZerO actually was given a pretty good shot by a lot of people (given that last proleague game) and then Flash rolled out with a shiny crisped-up build and demolished him (even though he played well in the first couple games, he just wasn't prepared).
I'm not really joking; what I mean is you can't really hold losses vs Flash when he's playing like that against someone.
Flash played extremely well, but Hydra just rolled over. It wasn't even specially prepared builds. It was just perfectly executed standard builds. :/ I'd hold it against him, but Idk if that even counts as this month. After that, Hydra has been having a great month.
2 Rax tech, which he used game 1 and 2, are not standard builds these days at all. Hydra rolled over just like Zero did, or JD has done in the past. I am convinced Flash would've destroyed anyone in that series, with that amount of preparation and practise.
On June 21 2011 03:21 Holgerius wrote: Hydra is actually on a 10 game winning streak.
Ya, I don't think it's fair to count games vs Flash in God-mode.
I really want to assume you're joking here.
On the off-chance you're not - as I recall, there were worries about Hydra but a number of people thought he'd put up a fight - he didn't; ZerO actually was given a pretty good shot by a lot of people (given that last proleague game) and then Flash rolled out with a shiny crisped-up build and demolished him (even though he played well in the first couple games, he just wasn't prepared).
I'm not really joking; what I mean is you can't really hold losses vs Flash when he's playing like that against someone.
Flash played extremely well, but Hydra just rolled over. It wasn't even specially prepared builds. It was just perfectly executed standard builds. :/ I'd hold it against him, but Idk if that even counts as this month. After that, Hydra has been having a great month.
2 Rax tech, which he used game 1 and 2, are not standard builds these days at all. Hydra rolled over just like Zero did, or JD has done in the past. I am convinced Flash would've destroyed anyone in that series, with that amount of preparation and practise.
I concur with that assessment. Flash put everything into that semifinal and final.
On June 21 2011 03:21 Holgerius wrote: Hydra is actually on a 10 game winning streak.
Ya, I don't think it's fair to count games vs Flash in God-mode.
I really want to assume you're joking here.
On the off-chance you're not - as I recall, there were worries about Hydra but a number of people thought he'd put up a fight - he didn't; ZerO actually was given a pretty good shot by a lot of people (given that last proleague game) and then Flash rolled out with a shiny crisped-up build and demolished him (even though he played well in the first couple games, he just wasn't prepared).
I'm not really joking; what I mean is you can't really hold losses vs Flash when he's playing like that against someone.
Flash played extremely well, but Hydra just rolled over. It wasn't even specially prepared builds. It was just perfectly executed standard builds. :/ I'd hold it against him, but Idk if that even counts as this month. After that, Hydra has been having a great month.
2 Rax tech, which he used game 1 and 2, are not standard builds these days at all. Hydra rolled over just like Zero did, or JD has done in the past. I am convinced Flash would've destroyed anyone in that series, with that amount of preparation and practise.
When evaluating non-Flash players, I suggest that we don't consider losses vs Flash as legit losses but count wins against him. That's the only way we can be fair about it :D (and no I'm not being sarcastic, but I'm not being serious either).
Flash better stomp group A so that he can tie his head to head vs JD. That way No.1 becomes undisputed once more.
I think we should hold such a standard with Flash as well. If Flash loses to Flash, well, psssh, anybody can do that. But if Flash can manage to actually BEAT Flash, well damn, I'll be impressed.
On June 21 2011 03:21 Holgerius wrote: Hydra is actually on a 10 game winning streak.
Ya, I don't think it's fair to count games vs Flash in God-mode.
I really want to assume you're joking here.
On the off-chance you're not - as I recall, there were worries about Hydra but a number of people thought he'd put up a fight - he didn't; ZerO actually was given a pretty good shot by a lot of people (given that last proleague game) and then Flash rolled out with a shiny crisped-up build and demolished him (even though he played well in the first couple games, he just wasn't prepared).
I'm not really joking; what I mean is you can't really hold losses vs Flash when he's playing like that against someone.
Flash played extremely well, but Hydra just rolled over. It wasn't even specially prepared builds. It was just perfectly executed standard builds. :/ I'd hold it against him, but Idk if that even counts as this month. After that, Hydra has been having a great month.
2 Rax tech, which he used game 1 and 2, are not standard builds these days at all. Hydra rolled over just like Zero did, or JD has done in the past. I am convinced Flash would've destroyed anyone in that series, with that amount of preparation and practise.
I don't think he would have 3-0'd jaedong. Actually with how jaedong has been playing vs strong terrans lately I would have given him a good chance at winning. There was 1 time where flash 3-0'd him and hasn't happened sense. I am so sad that zero robbed us of it as he couldn't even win a game T_T
On June 21 2011 02:38 Mortality wrote: What I don't understand is... what the hell is going on in KT house? They have 30 wins in PL. The #4 ranked team has what, 24 wins? That means unless they lose every single match they are going to end the season as #3. In terms of what that means for the playoffs, there's no difference between ending as #3 and ending as #4 - #6 and there is mathematically NO WAY for them to drop out of the top 6. Likewise, they are not going to move up. Not when CJ is playing this strong and SKT1 is playing this strong. Not happening. So again, WHY are they playing Flash? Either the coaching staff has lost all its sense or Flash's wrist problems are a lie. Because you don't play someone who is injured in a game that doesn't actually matter.
Well, up until the match against CJ they had a pretty good chance at stealing nr.2 which would have made a pretty big difference. It is first now that it doesn't matter at all so hopefully they will stop sending Flash now and give him a few weeks to recover. (Besides, we need to give the rest of the players some experience)
On June 21 2011 08:04 aupstar wrote: This season's MSL was extra hard too imo because there was no OSL to practice for.
I'd say it was a bit easier for that reason. Few people besides Flash usually get deep in both tournaments, so he's often at a disadvantage due to that in the later stages. But not this time.
Seriously?
It's easier to play in 1 SL vs 2 at the same time?
It's easier to advance when all the players have plenty of time to practice for the one tournament (bar the constant that is Proleague)?
I'm sure this is why it's so easy to win dual starleague titles.
On June 21 2011 08:04 aupstar wrote: This season's MSL was extra hard too imo because there was no OSL to practice for.
I'd say it was a bit easier for that reason. Few people besides Flash usually get deep in both tournaments, so he's often at a disadvantage due to that in the later stages. But not this time.
Seriously?
It's easier to play in 1 SL vs 2 at the same time?
It's easier to advance when all the players have plenty of time to practice for the one tournament (bar the constant that is Proleague)?
I'm sure this is why it's so easy to win dual starleague titles.
What? Yes it's easier to play in 1 league than 2 at the same time, if your opponents usually only play in 1 past the Ro16 or so. And that's exactly why it's so hard to win dual starleague titles.
And I mean, if both you and your opponent play in 2 SL's at the same time, you're not exactly at an advantage anyway.
On June 21 2011 08:04 aupstar wrote: This season's MSL was extra hard too imo because there was no OSL to practice for.
I'd say it was a bit easier for that reason. Few people besides Flash usually get deep in both tournaments, so he's often at a disadvantage due to that in the later stages. But not this time.
Seriously?
It's easier to play in 1 SL vs 2 at the same time?
It's easier to advance when all the players have plenty of time to practice for the one tournament (bar the constant that is Proleague)?
I'm sure this is why it's so easy to win dual starleague titles.
What? Yes it's easier to play in 1 league than 2 at the same time, if your opponents usually only play in 1 past the Ro16 or so. And that's exactly why it's so hard to win dual starleague titles.
And I mean, if both you and your opponent play in 2 SL's at the same time, you're not exactly at an advantage anyway.
Ah I see what you're saying. You're saying that since they only have to practice for 1 tournament it's easier on them because they're not stressing over preparing build orders for 2 tournaments at the same time.
I guess in a way you're right, but I'd still argue that given that it's an even playing field with players not needing to save strats or worry that they've revealed too much in a close best of series in the MSL giving them a severe disadvantage in the OSL. Hence, player ace strats stay hidden for longer and their opponents aren't able to adjust the same way due to lack of replays. This also means that the player is more likely to go all out in a best of series.
They are also more likely to be fighting fit and not fatigued from playing in MSL/OSL/Proleague simultaneously which makes them exponentially scarier.
Finally taking down his rival PerfectMan, who was always sent by Oz to snipe Light who was always supposed to be there to snipe JD. This puts light at 7-3 in his last 10 TvP. Who would have ever thought?
I noticed Light's recent success against Protoss this morning when I was looking at the results of that match. I hope he keeps it up; it'd be nice to have more Terrans besides Fantasy and Flash who are consistent against Protoss.
Light has historically been very strong at TvZ, one of the top 2 for about a year and a half, and his TvT has been solid A-class for years. His TvP is whats been dragging its heels. It seemed like it kept getting worse throughout his career. In 2010 SWL it was okay enough to pull a few solid wins off good players, but let's face it, over a one year period he was under 30%. I'll settle with him just maintaining his TvP at a passable standard of 50%.
P.S. what's with there being 8 guys over 2200 elo?
Oh, I know. I remember being very worried about his MSL semifinals match against Jaedong, since he was coming into it (and WCG Korea Bo3) with a 29 - 5 TvZ record that year. And yes, you're probably right about settling.
I wish there were some function that allowed you to look at Elo on different dates, so I could get a better sense of Elo fluctuations. I only started paying attention to Elo in the middle of last year.
On June 22 2011 07:52 Mortality wrote: Light has historically been very strong at TvZ, one of the top 2 for about a year and a half, and his TvT has been solid A-class for years. His TvP is whats been dragging its heels. It seemed like it kept getting worse throughout his career. In 2010 SWL it was okay enough to pull a few solid wins off good players, but let's face it, over a one year period he was under 30%. I'll settle with him just maintaining his TvP at a passable standard of 50%.
Apparently he was very good at TvZ and TvP in early '07 or so? I wasn't around but I read the PRs from back then so... ~_~
On June 22 2011 07:52 Mortality wrote: P.S. what's with there being 8 guys over 2200 elo?
i dont think bisu should be very high. sure he is 5-1 so far this month, but all his wins have been over not very good players. and he didnt make it into the OSL
On June 22 2011 15:07 oldgregg wrote: i dont think bisu should be very high. sure he is 5-1 so far this month, but all his wins have been over not very good players. and he didnt make it into the OSL
lol at you acting like people are talking nonsense when Bisu was still 5-0 at the time the post before yours was written.
[And btw, he's 6-1 now. Why Fox would send Wooki of all people as ace against a team with 5 players that have 60% or better lifetime win percentage against Protoss I have no idea. I guess Wooki is their ace now? :/]
As for this shit about Bisu not deserving any cred, just because he's had a relatively easy month in PL should not be held against him when he's been dominating for months. Other than a brief blip in March he's been consistently floating around 80% month in month out for over half a year. He's #1 ELO. If you think he's not one of the 5 scariest players in SC right now then you are retarded.
bisu maybe played well this month but as usual he messed up in starleague not even starleage preliminaries his elo is high since losing in preliminaries doesnt affect your elo morality he is playing scary but at the same time its scary to see him drop the ball each time in critical times vs inferior players (on paper ) no excuse for that loss to hyvaa and that will cost him #1 in pr
I still think Flash should be #1 and Bisu likely #2. Yes he lost to both roro and hyvaa but those two played spectacularly well, I honestly doubt any other P could have done as well against as Bisu did
On June 22 2011 18:06 Dakkas wrote: I still think Flash should be #1 and Bisu likely #2. Yes he lost to both roro and hyvaa but those two played spectacularly well, I honestly doubt any other P could have done as well against as Bisu did
i agree tough sadly it speaks more on the condition of the protoss players than a glorification for bisu
On June 22 2011 18:06 Dakkas wrote: I still think Flash should be #1 and Bisu likely #2. Yes he lost to both roro and hyvaa but those two played spectacularly well, I honestly doubt any other P could have done as well against as Bisu did
i agree tough sadly it speaks more on the condition of the protoss players than a glorification for bisu
Yes it is sad, the OSL prelims will forever haunt me
What people also should calculate is that bisu broke the most win record in PL, currently at _61_. It's something that HAS to be considered in the PR. Also you have to consider his defeats, they were all close games, against opponents that played excellently, they weren't walkovers or bisu playing atrociously.
On June 22 2011 20:21 Elefanto wrote: What people also should calculate is that bisu broke the most win record in PL, currently at _61_. It's something that HAS to be considered in the PR. Also you have to consider his defeats, they were all close games, against opponents that played excellently, they weren't walkovers or bisu playing atrociously.
That's why he should be #2, having the PL record that doesn't look like it'll be beaten for a while is good but it doesn't compare with winning a MSL
On June 22 2011 15:07 oldgregg wrote: i dont think bisu should be very high. sure he is 5-1 so far this month, but all his wins have been over not very good players. and he didnt make it into the OSL
Indeed I agree. He also lost against Hyvaa in his strongest matchup. Hyvaa is less than 47.5% against toss. Majority of protoss DO defeat him.
Hahaha, JD is such a baller. Like a week ago I would've considered taking him off the PR entirely, he was on the worst losing streak of his career and dropped like a stone in the ELO rankings, now he's on a 6 game winning streak, including his 3rd and 4th straight wins against Flash. XD You can never count him out. Fucking never. After the three straight Bo5 final wins by Flash over JD I thought their rivalry was sort of dying a little bit, but all these losses makes me really excited about the chance of them facing off in the OSL final.
Anyways, Flash is totally #1 this month in my book now that he advanced in OSL. The whole making-history-by-tying-Nada's-record-by-roflstomping-his-(respectable)-semi-final-and-final-opponents-3-0-in-a-brutal-fashion-like-a-fucking-bonjwa-thingy means so much in my eyes that all his PL losses, and the one vs JD in OSL, don't really matter at all. Not this month.
As for #2, JD and Bisu are definitly the canditades at the moment. I mean, Bisu really should be punished for once again showing a complete inability to deliver anything respectworthy when he's on his own in the individual leagues, but no one else is really stepping up. And you just can't ignore his long-term dominance in PL.
As of now I'd make it Flash - Bisu - Jaedong for top 3, because of the ff reasons: 1. Flash tying Nada, 2. Bisu getting 61 wins so far setting a new PL record (might be more), 3. JD owning Flash 4 straight games. Since all of them have their bad points (Flash's PL and JD failures, Bisu's OSL failure, JD's horrible losing streak), the bad stuff should cancel each other out (kinda like mutual bad faith in law or in pari delicto), leaving the determination of the 1-3 ranking to a logical comparison of the 3 player's relative strengths. I think that would be fair, and that 1-3 could arguably be set at whatever sequence (the above is just my personal take on it).
JD hasn't really rocked this year. :/ His ZvZ and ZvP are still really shaky, and iirc they're below 60% this year. Not exactly JD standards. His ZvT though. My god, it's freaking magnificent.
On June 23 2011 01:32 Hikari wrote: The recent victories should keep JD on PR, however his poor performance earlier this month is going to cost him some ranks.
At this point I don't think JD should drop any ranks. I don't see more than 4 people good enough to be placed higher. If the month had been reversed, and he had started with a 6 game winning streak before his losing streak I'd agree, but not as it looks now. Though preferably he should play a good Zerg and a good Protoss before the month ends, since all he's really showed is that his ZvT sure as hell isn't in a slump.
He is on a 5 game losing streak in SPL. He has been playing poorly. He has recently fallen into an alarming habit of not only losing to good players, but being demolished by them. The games against Zero and Hydra were more those two folding than anything special he did.
Bisu should not be number 1.
He has gone 6-1 in PL, yes. Look at the quality of his opponents though. He went 1-1 against people who aren't rookies or complete scrubs (i.e. Tyson and Roro). He also flopped out of the OSL prelims at the expense of below-average opposition.
Jaedong shouldn't be number 1.
Despite his incredible run in the last few days, he started the month so badly that it's not even funny with the longest losing streak of his career.
- In his way through qualification for the OSL, Jangbi was undefeated in the Wildcard tournament knocking out Zero and Leta in the process. - He is undefeated in SPL this month, including taking down the PvP Bonjwa Horang2. - His epic storming is back and more awe-inspiring than what JD, Flash and Bisu have won games with. He's been better to watch. - If Samsung end up qualifying for playoffs, it will be almost entirely because he has lifted in round 6 so much.
Jangbi should be number one because the others don't deserve it, he has been critical to Khan's success, qualified for the OSL in style and it would be funny.
Jangbi is definitely #4 but no higher, atleast at this point. Despite his excellent record this month and the failings of TaekLeeSang (sorry Stork ), he needs to prove himself over a longer period or do something more exceptional than beat a few decent/good players and a bunch of scrubs, like beating an S-class player in a BoX.
Even #4 might be high, but, I definitely seem him being worth putting on the list this month.
Regardless, top 3 is going to be kinda weird, but will still probably have to be Flash #1, and JD/Bisu a toss up for 2 and three. This is probably the only month where Flash can bomb in proleague and still be a relatively uncontroversial number one, thanks to having just won a starleague before starting this crap, and... well, JD playing mouse-only or something for the first half of this month stole his chance, and Bisu failing out of starleagues early is making him look silly at this point.
No one else is really playing well enough to challenge that top three right now though anyways, I don't think. There are plenty of great players putting on plenty of great games, but unless something has entirely escaped me, no one is on a particularly unusual tear, so
Meh. Weird month. There's a week left to maybe clear things up, I guess.
Ya, next month Flash will not be able to ride on his historical Starleague win. He's gonna have to start delivering some S-class play again if he wants to keep the top spot. This month however belongs to him.
6 game win streak, including 2 wins vs Flash, over the course of a week combined with the fact that it's fucking JD (with all his history) means that he goes up above all mere mortals IMO.
On June 23 2011 03:14 Lightwip wrote: Jaedong doesn't deserve to move up. A few wins doesn't mean we can forget about his early month.
So apart from Flash and Bisu, who deserves to be ahead of him? Zero who got raped by Flash and kicked out of the OSL? Hydra who's beaten mostly mediocre players and lost to Juni of all people? Best who got knocked out of the OSL in his best matchup against a mediocre player and whose only significant achievement this month is beating Flash and Bogus? Soulkey who also got knocked out of the OSL with Bogus being the only good player he's beaten?
I also think that what happens later in the month should count for more than what happened earlier in the month since that says more about his present condition.
On June 23 2011 02:23 DropBear wrote: Flash should not be number 1. Bisu should not be number 1. Jaedong shouldn't be number 1. So who should be number 1? Why JangBi of course!
Reminds me of that time Jangbi ACTUALLY got #1 on the PR
I would love to see soo, yes an SKT zerg ^^, in the next PR, 5 game winning streak, helped SKT1 today to reverse kill and he is in the OSL, I think he deserves it.
On June 23 2011 04:14 jaQi wrote: I would love to see soo, yes an SKT zerg ^^, in the next PR, 5 game winning streak, helped SKT1 today to reverse kill and he is in the OSL, I think he deserves it.
SKTzerg? S2 just won his first ZvT of the season.
I don't think Flash will remain high on the PR this coming month. The Tyrant is back.
On June 23 2011 03:14 Lightwip wrote: Jaedong doesn't deserve to move up. A few wins doesn't mean we can forget about his early month.
His early month? Right now he sits at 6-3 on the month. He's beaten Flash 3 times. He's trashed Really, Sea, and Bogus, and seems to have gotten over the ZvZ issues that plagued him for a couple weeks. All OZ has to do to make the playoffs is keep winning - 2 of 3 might even do it - and against KHAN and STX I'd say they've got a really good shot, even if they get massacred by SKT.
I'm not sure of the ordering at the moment, but top 3 is clearly back to Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu, which means Jaedong moves up by default. You could even make a case for Jaedong #1. I don't think it's a good idea - I think it's between Flash and Bisu at the moment - but I'm going to do it, just to demonstrate. I've made the case for Jaedong. Which competitor can reasonably be called better?
Bisu - 6-1, so he's got fewer losses. But he completely failed prelims, that's not good if you want to be the best player in the world. Flash - 9-6, MSL win + Golden Badge + tying NaDa. On the other hand, he's 0-2 on the month vs Jaedong, so putting him over Jaedong seems a little odd even if his accomplishments seem to deserve it. ZerO - 3-4, got pounded by Flash. No. Hydra - 5-4 this month, picked up a win against Flash, but also lost 0-3 in the MSL. Also just lost to Juni, which is ridiculous. Nowhere near Jaedong. Movie - 5-1, lost to HiyA but that's excusable, but dropped prelims. Jangbi - made it through the preliminaries, is 4-0 on the month... but he's been playing horribly for almost two years now, so not really even a contender yet.
That's just by way of demonstration. Like I said, I don't think Jaedong's at #1, but there's definitely an argument to put him there, and absolutely no way he's not better than #5 right now.
If I made a rank right now, it would probably be something like this:
1. Flash - Golden Badge + tying NaDa gets him #1 almost no matter what else he does this month. 2. Jaedong - only player who consistently stands a chance against Flash. Has looked shaky, especially in ZvP, but I think he's back. 3. Bisu - Bisu has easily the highest peak, and the scariest individual matchup, of anybody out there right now. Unfortunately, he lost in prelims, which is just dumb for somebody so good. 4. Movie - he's playing seriously brilliant Starcraft at the moment. 5-9. In close to this order: Horang2, Hydra, ZerO Light, firebathero 10. Jangbi
Other candidates, around 8-10: Soulkey, Bogus, RorO, Killer
oh boy this will reach 1000 posts by the end of the month for sure and stop saying bisu is 6-1 this month how can he be 6-1 if he lost in preliminaries and it was a bo3,,,, logic says it should be 2 losses at minimum and i know people tend to not add the games played in the offline preliminaries to the calculation since the majority of those are easy wins makes it even worse to take out the losses in the calculation anyway i'll try and stir it up a bit .... bisu should be lower than jaedong who is 6-3 (the same if you count the loss to hyvaa ) and by making it to the round of 16 and winning 4 times vs flash 2 this month ... i think its obvious .. bisu may have the most wins in proleague but not all those wins happened this month ...anyway that shall do the job
On June 23 2011 06:58 pvzvt wrote: oh boy this will reach 1000 posts by the end of the month for sure and stop saying bisu is 6-1 this month how can he be 6-1 if he lost in preliminaries and it was a bo3,,,, logic says it should be 2 losses at minimum and i know people tend to not add the games played in the offline preliminaries to the calculation since the majority of those are easy wins makes it even worse to take out the losses in the calculation anyway i'll try and stir it up a bit .... bisu should be lower than jaedong who is 6-3 (the same if you count the loss to hyvaa ) and by making it to the round of 16 and winning 4 times vs flash 2 this month ... i think its obvious .. bisu may have the most wins in proleague but not all those wins happened this month ...anyway that shall do the job
I'm not entirely comfortable with ignoring prelims, but there are several good reasons to do so, at least to the point of not counting games won and lost:
First, they are incredibly unpredictable when done in Bo3 bracket format, as MSL always is and OSL was done this time. Round-robin would almost always bring better results (imo) and is usually/sometimes used in OSL prelims but not this time.
Second, prelims are done very quickly, so they tend to not reflect a player's resume over the whole month. You will find that passing prelims or not is taken into consideration, but the actual game count would normally skew the picture badly.
Third, we normally don't get a good idea of who's good and who's lucky till at least the Ro16, sometimes Ro8, in the tournament season. For instance, HyuN passed prelims, and is MBC's best Zerg - but when he faced Flash and Jaedong, he didn't just lose (like ZerO), or look good but outclassed (like Hydra or Bogus), he got pasted - he only got out of prelims because his group was terrible.
On June 23 2011 06:58 pvzvt wrote: oh boy this will reach 1000 posts by the end of the month for sure and stop saying bisu is 6-1 this month how can he be 6-1 if he lost in preliminaries and it was a bo3,,,, logic says it should be 2 losses at minimum and i know people tend to not add the games played in the offline preliminaries to the calculation since the majority of those are easy wins makes it even worse to take out the losses in the calculation anyway i'll try and stir it up a bit .... bisu should be lower than jaedong who is 6-3 (the same if you count the loss to hyvaa ) and by making it to the round of 16 and winning 4 times vs flash 2 this month ... i think its obvious .. bisu may have the most wins in proleague but not all those wins happened this month ...anyway that shall do the job
I'm not entirely comfortable with ignoring prelims, but there are several good reasons to do so, at least to the point of not counting games won and lost:
First, they are incredibly unpredictable when done in Bo3 bracket format, as MSL always is and OSL was done this time. Round-robin would almost always bring better results (imo) and is usually/sometimes used in OSL prelims but not this time.
Second, prelims are done very quickly, so they tend to not reflect a player's resume over the whole month. You will find that passing prelims or not is taken into consideration, but the actual game count would normally skew the picture badly.
Third, we normally don't get a good idea of who's good and who's lucky till at least the Ro16, sometimes Ro8, in the tournament season. For instance, HyuN passed prelims, and is MBC's best Zerg - but when he faced Flash and Jaedong, he didn't just lose (like ZerO), or look good but outclassed (like Hydra or Bogus), he got pasted - he only got out of prelims because his group was terrible.
i agree about the speed issue but bo3 is pretty fair in my opinion about the groups yes we all know luck has its factor in how far you may reach (and rarely take the gold with) but bisu's group was just as bad and it doesnt matter who is in that group its who you faced since clearly you are not playing vs all the group just the one you face (luck factor again)
i dont see the comparison were you expecting hyun to win vs flash (he faced flash and bogus) of course not and thats exactly what i expected from bisu vs hyvaa
On June 23 2011 06:58 pvzvt wrote: oh boy this will reach 1000 posts by the end of the month for sure and stop saying bisu is 6-1 this month how can he be 6-1 if he lost in preliminaries and it was a bo3,,,, logic says it should be 2 losses at minimum and i know people tend to not add the games played in the offline preliminaries to the calculation since the majority of those are easy wins makes it even worse to take out the losses in the calculation anyway i'll try and stir it up a bit .... bisu should be lower than jaedong who is 6-3 (the same if you count the loss to hyvaa ) and by making it to the round of 16 and winning 4 times vs flash 2 this month ... i think its obvious .. bisu may have the most wins in proleague but not all those wins happened this month ...anyway that shall do the job
If you insist on counting the losses from the prelims, you should probably count the wins also lol...
no i insist on counting losses from the prelim that take you out of the osl otherwise jangbi would be in #1 this month since he is 9-2 + 4 more wins from proleague
at this moment in time jaedong has to be above bisu. jd is 6-3 so far, with 2 wins over flash, wins over sea and bogus. bisu is 6-1 but with wins over mediocre/untested players, and he didn't make it out of OSL prelims.
Jaedong is looking good and his ZvT is the undisputed best I think, but I have some worries over his ZvZ and ZvP. Bisu would be my #2 because he's looking more well rounded at the moment. And yes, he dropped from the prelims, but prelims results are soooooooo different than even WCG, which is just a blip on the radar compared to the actual Starleague. Moreover, Jaedong is going to have that edge over Bisu in July when he's in OSL and Bisu is not anyway, so it's not like Bisu is going totally unpunished here.
It's not like dominating a prelim group proves anything -- even dominating a wildcard: few people even NOTICED Sea doing it, and in that particular case Sea had turned out some incredibly impressive results earlier that year (see SWL 2010). What has Jangbi done so far this year?
Similarly, we've seen top players flop from prelims before. In fact, NaDa, Oov, and Savior all had won 2+ MSL's before escaping OSL prelims. The difference in skill between an MSL winner and somebody who strings together a paltry few wins in PL and/or qualifiers (and even early rounds of major tournaments) in one particular month is like the difference in size between the sun and the moon: they only look the same to a completely untrained eye that has no sense for the vast distances in space.
Anybody remember Lucifer's 12 game win streak? Where did that get him? When he finally made Ro16 in MSL and in GOM he got completely and utterly DEMOLISHED by Flash and Jaedong. After that he never again even qualified for a Starleague, never again performed worth shit in PL. And as much as I love Shine, where did he go after that 13 game win streak? At least in that case arguing Shine so high in the ranking could be justified since the last SL had happened THREE months ago.
As for why I'm propping up Bisu IN SPITE OF his lousy tournament record, it's because he's the MVP of PL, carrying SKT1 on his back for like 8 months now, and because there's something else to consider in PR besides just wins/losses on a particular month: SKILL.
PR always seems to attract extremists. On one end there are guys who want to give the more skilled players the top spots even when they suck things up. On the other end there are guys who want PR to be a run down of who had the most wins last month, completely neglecting the HUMAN ELEMENT. Bisu might have flopped in the prelims, but as long as he keeps performing well in PL I'll let him slide through on that human element. Because I know as well as everybody that so long as his skill remains high and his win rate remains consistent, he will always be a danger come next SL.
Everyone is just looking at the raw numbers and nobody is talking quality of performance. Am I the only person who thought Hyvaa really stepped it up in a big way that series? And even so, the way he tried to cheese through that series should show how very much he didn't want to face Bisu in a standard game. Lucky for him he made it.... once.
1. Flash - there is NO ONE ELSE 2. Bisu - everything depends on PL now for Bisu and he could fall if he turns in a bad performance 3. Jaedong - his results and his AWESOME ZvT are propelling him upwards, and even if he sucked it up against Zero, he still did make a semifinal, but I hesitate to put him higher when he is 3-7 in his last 10 ZvZ and still hasn't proved he's completely fixed his vulnerabilities in ZvP. 4-6. Movie, Hydra 5-10. Zero, Horang2, Light, Soulkey, Jangbi (I deliberately overlapped these ranks) -Movie started turning it on in SWL. Just looking at stats: 5-1 this month, 13-2 since April, 25-7 since he started turning it on in mid-February. With the exception of former teammate Iris (who seems exceptionally strong at killing former teammates), every player to have beaten Movie was very strong in vP at the time. -Hydra is obvious. Winning MSL then making semifinal is THE BEST BAR NONE tournament record so far this year. His current PL performance has been solid as well. Seeded for ODT -Soulkey has been ripping it up since April with some high profile wins earned. -Zero: I decided I'd like him ranked, but I really want to see some more wins under his belt. -Horang2: you can't argue with the results. -Light: finally developing a TvP worth mentioning -Jangbi: Rounding out the ranking, I'd put Jangbi probably somewhere in the bottom 3. Let's wait and see if he PROVES himself before putting him higher.
Other contenders: -Best: still has a chance to prove himself, but what he really needs to do is prove is that he can actually play PvZ above the D rank ICCup level. Until then, CBNC it is. -Soo: a likely CBNC candidate. I'd rather not rank him till I see he's not just a one match wonder (ZvP). -Jaehoon: I hesitate to place him above CBNC until we see some consistency. The infamous JvX enigma has too solid a reputation of wackiness. -Bogus: Can't really fault him for losing to Flash and JD. Looking at Bogus over the past 3 months or so, it seems like anyone who beats him is high A-class or better vT, but I'd like to see him become something more than just an "S-class indicator." CBNC or possibly low rank on PR. -Roro: we'll see how he does in ODT. CBNC or possibly low rank on PR, depending.
On June 23 2011 09:18 pvzvt wrote: no i insist on counting losses from the prelim that take you out of the osl otherwise jangbi would be in #1 this month since he is 9-2 + 4 more wins from proleague
PR isn't based only on monthly record. It's based a lot on where the losses happened, who they happened against, what the result was, how a player's played in the past - so Bisu, for instance, gets cut a lot of slack because he's a triple Starleague winner, the best PvZer ever, and right now probably the best player in Proleague excepting maybe Flash and Jaedong (but maybe not). At the same time, losing in prelims to hyvaa (who is bad) is far more damning than losing to Flash or Jaedong or even someone established (like Really or Crazy-Hydra), or up-and-coming (like Grape or sHy), would be.
On June 23 2011 08:30 pvzvt wrote: about the groups yes we all know luck has its factor in how far you may reach (and rarely take the gold with) but bisu's group was just as bad and it doesnt matter who is in that group its who you faced since clearly you are not playing vs all the group just the one you face (luck factor again)
i dont see the comparison were you expecting hyun to win vs flash (he faced flash and bogus) of course not and thats exactly what i expected from bisu vs hyvaa
...Which is why Bisu's ranking, barring some absolutely amazing play to close out the month, will be heavily damaged by not passing prelims, especially considering who he lost to - but at the same time we tend to not count the games played: prelims (and starleague play in general) is a pass/fail grade, rather than a winning percentage thing, because advancing is all that counts.
EDIT: And as you'll notice, nobody ever agrees exactly on how to weight what. Mortality puts even less weight on prelims than I do, while you (for example) count them just like normal games. Even with the leagues everyone agrees are important, some people weight Proleague more (I tend to), people will disagree about which Starleague is more important (OSL is still a little more prestigious but sometimes MSL will have better groups at least for the sake of comparison - assuming the MSL puts together another season this might be an odd season where it's a better tournament because of prelim results - and so on and so forth. So it's all a question of convincing the PR writer to listen to your opinion.
I agree with Mortality about Bisu being ahead of Jaedong. Despite his OSL elimination, Bisu has been the scariest player by far in this season's proleague and it's pretty incredible that he's managed to overshadow LeeSang in this regard. Flash and Jaedong have both had iffy periods in PL (JD more so), but Bisu has been consistently dominating in all 6 rounds against all kinds of players. That's gotta count for something, an unexpected loss against a well prepared hyvaa shouldn't detract from Bisu's accomplishments too much. With the end of proleague (and with SKT being #1, they won't play for a while) and Bisu's elimination, he's not gonna be playing much for a while so he's probably gonna drop down a bit in the next few months anyway.
If we do get a JD vs Bisu game in Oz vs. SKT, I think that will decide it once and for all who gets the #2 spot but right now, I think Bisu has the edge.
On June 23 2011 06:58 pvzvt wrote: oh boy this will reach 1000 posts by the end of the month for sure and stop saying bisu is 6-1 this month how can he be 6-1 if he lost in preliminaries and it was a bo3,,,, logic says it should be 2 losses at minimum and i know people tend to not add the games played in the offline preliminaries to the calculation since the majority of those are easy wins makes it even worse to take out the losses in the calculation anyway i'll try and stir it up a bit .... bisu should be lower than jaedong who is 6-3 (the same if you count the loss to hyvaa ) and by making it to the round of 16 and winning 4 times vs flash 2 this month ... i think its obvious .. bisu may have the most wins in proleague but not all those wins happened this month ...anyway that shall do the job
If you insist on counting the losses from the prelims, you should probably count the wins also lol...
Seems to me prelims are easy to count. Forget the wins and losses. It's a check for you if you make it out. It's a strike against you if you don't. And those seeded from previous tournament get the same treatment as making out of the prelims.
So it shouldn't matter if you lose in the 1st round or the finals of your group. You either make it or you don't.
On June 23 2011 06:58 pvzvt wrote: oh boy this will reach 1000 posts by the end of the month for sure and stop saying bisu is 6-1 this month how can he be 6-1 if he lost in preliminaries and it was a bo3,,,, logic says it should be 2 losses at minimum and i know people tend to not add the games played in the offline preliminaries to the calculation since the majority of those are easy wins makes it even worse to take out the losses in the calculation anyway i'll try and stir it up a bit .... bisu should be lower than jaedong who is 6-3 (the same if you count the loss to hyvaa ) and by making it to the round of 16 and winning 4 times vs flash 2 this month ... i think its obvious .. bisu may have the most wins in proleague but not all those wins happened this month ...anyway that shall do the job
If you insist on counting the losses from the prelims, you should probably count the wins also lol...
Seems to me prelims are easy to count. Forget the wins and losses. It's a check for you if you make it out. It's a strike against you if you don't. And those seeded from previous tournament get the same treatment as making out of the prelims.
So it shouldn't matter if you lose in the 1st round or the finals of your group. You either make it or you don't.
Prelims have got to count for the PR. Wins and losses. It's just that a win against a prelim scrub shouldn't count for much
I never meant that prelims should not count, as I have mentioned in earlier posts in this thread is obviously should. What I meant was that I found it hilarious that pvzvt when needing help with his argument decided to just tweak and pick stats\games of his own chosing when reality did not work with his argument. The only way he could make Bisu and Jaedong have the same stats was by randomly ignore all his wins in prelims, but count all his losses.
Its basically like me saying "oh well since you play super strong opponents in general in semi finals and finals of starleagues those loses should not count against you, hence Hydra is 10-1 in his last 11 games and should be #1 on PR". You can`t just make up stats on your own when the real numbers does not support your case.
Its not even me disagreeing if Bisu should be higher than Jaedong or not, because if people have good arguments for it I don`t see a problem with it, its that he randomly starts to make up stats when it helps his case I have a problem with and hence suggested that if he wants to count the losses from the prelims into the stats, he needs to add the wins also.
The HUMAN ELEMENT should make up a very large part of the ranking. I hesitate to give a number to it exactly because it should always be taken in the context of results, but really, it's 50% AT LEAST.
In terms of results, the timetables of the various leagues do not always play nicely with the ranking. You HAVE to take that into account if you want the ranking to have ANY credibility at all.
In importance of an INDIVIDUAL game: prelims + special events < proleague < secondary leagues (WCG, Masters, MST, ODT, etc.) + SWL playoffs < PL playoffs + OSL/MSL
-Prelims are really just a check of advancement or not. Due to the way prelims are structured and the chaotic nature of results, it's really not THAT big of a check either. There is always a chance of bad luck: 1.) facing the wrong opponent (e.g. Zero fell 2-1 to s2 -- a competent ZvZer on the SKT1 A-team -- in the prelims) or 2.) facing an opponent who steps it up (like hyvaa did to Bisu -- for all that we may criticize Bisu for losing that, how many Protoss players in the same position would have won?)
-PL games individually mean very little. What matters is long term consistency (since THIS is what really matters in terms of taking a team to the playoffs) and also WHAT you show. Some players are utilized as snipers and it is not correct to judge a sniper by the same standard as you judge an all-around solid player that gets used wherever he is needed. Many people forget this.
On June 23 2011 05:19 VGhost wrote: Bisu - 6-1, so he's got fewer losses. But he completely failed prelims, that's not good if you want to be the best player in the world.
So Savior was not the best player in the world in 2006?
So far I'm for:
1. God Young Ho 2. Jaedong the Legend Killer God Slayer 3. Kim Taek ????
It is quite true that Bisu's failure in the ODT prelims leaves much doubt. JD is showing too much power by owning Flash to be overlooked by someone who went 1-2 to Hyvaa PvZ. And I love Bisu, but he's not making a case beyond #3.
Despite his recent mini-slump and dropping all those games to Jaedong, the fact is that Flash has not lost a single game that mattered this month. KT is a lock for the playoffs, and Flash made it through his OSL group. That being the case, the Golden Badge winner should keep #1.
There's a case to be made for either Jaedong or Bisu at #2, and I'd be happy with either one of them there. The other one should be #3.
Flash has lost games that mattered, and it worries me. (#3 in PL is a lot worse than #2 or #1.) He absolutely owned in the MSL and he's advanced in the OSL, so he's doing well enough to retain #1 in power rank.
Actually, about a year ago, he was knocked off #1 because of his ace loss streak, which he really shouldn't have. Those games didn't matter, KT was WAY ahead.
On June 24 2011 05:38 qrs wrote: Despite his recent mini-slump and dropping all those games to Jaedong, the fact is that Flash has not lost a single game that mattered this month. KT is a lock for the playoffs, and Flash made it through his OSL group. That being the case, the Golden Badge winner should keep #1.
while I agree that he should have the #1 spot for his golden badge, I really wouldn't say that he did not lose a single game that mattered. Due to the proleague playoff format, it doesn't matter if your team is 3rd or 6th during the season, but it matters if you are 2nd or 3rd, because being 2nd means your team only has to overcome two other teams instead of four to win the title.
If he had won against Hydra in PL, he would have carried his team to the ace match and could have won against CJ who is their direct contender for the 2nd place.
Prelims have got to count for the PR. Wins and losses. It's just that a win against a prelim scrub shouldn't count for much
I never meant that prelims should not count, as I have mentioned in earlier posts in this thread is obviously should. What I meant was that I found it hilarious that pvzvt when needing help with his argument decided to just tweak and pick stats\games of his own chosing when reality did not work with his argument. The only way he could make Bisu and Jaedong have the same stats was by randomly ignore all his wins in prelims, but count all his losses.
Its basically like me saying "oh well since you play super strong opponents in general in semi finals and finals of starleagues those loses should not count against you, hence Hydra is 10-1 in his last 11 games and should be #1 on PR". You can`t just make up stats on your own when the real numbers does not support your case.
Its not even me disagreeing if Bisu should be higher than Jaedong or not, because if people have good arguments for it I don`t see a problem with it, its that he randomly starts to make up stats when it helps his case I have a problem with and hence suggested that if he wants to count the losses from the prelims into the stats, he needs to add the wins also.[/QUOTE]
Agree that there is an epidemic of cherry-picking statistics in typical PR polemic.
Wait, "all his wins in prelims"? before going 1-2 and getting knocked out by hyvaa the only person Bisu beat in the prelims was Rudy, a Woongjin b-teamer that has never even played a televised match. Yeah it counts... I'm just not sure how much.
On June 24 2011 09:52 nodule wrote: Agree that there is an epidemic of cherry-picking statistics in typical PR polemic.
It's impossible to avoid these days. Personally, I try to cut things off at month boundaries when I can, but sometimes players will do like JD has this month and start off poorly then pick things up, and unfortunately most people don't respond sensibly when it comes to analyzing what a statistic really means. An 8-0 run following a 0-8 loss streak only averages out to 50% in the end and it is not necessarily true that you are playing better on the 8 game win streak than on the 8 game loss streak: these events may just be statistical anomalies.
On June 24 2011 06:29 SimonB wrote: Flash has lost games that mattered, and it worries me. (#3 in PL is a lot worse than #2 or #1.) He absolutely owned in the MSL and he's advanced in the OSL, so he's doing well enough to retain #1 in power rank.
Actually, about a year ago, he was knocked off #1 because of his ace loss streak, which he really shouldn't have. Those games didn't matter, KT was WAY ahead.
On June 24 2011 05:38 qrs wrote: Despite his recent mini-slump and dropping all those games to Jaedong, the fact is that Flash has not lost a single game that mattered this month. KT is a lock for the playoffs, and Flash made it through his OSL group. That being the case, the Golden Badge winner should keep #1.
while I agree that he should have the #1 spot for his golden badge, I really wouldn't say that he did not lose a single game that mattered. Due to the proleague playoff format, it doesn't matter if your team is 3rd or 6th during the season, but it matters if you are 2nd or 3rd, because being 2nd means your team only has to overcome two other teams instead of four to win the title.
If he had won against Hydra in PL, he would have carried his team to the ace match and could have won against CJ who is their direct contender for the 2nd place.
One thing I've always felt should be taken into consideration, but one that PR hardly ever cares about, is Bisu basically never dual-league. And hasn't even done much in the MSL in recent memory. There's just a lot less pressure when you just focus on the PL like Bisu does.
I just feel it's less about Bisu losing in the prelims or whatever. But that he basically never had to split his practice time among different leagues.
On June 24 2011 19:58 jaQi wrote: Come on, seriously. Like I said before, soo deserves a place in the next PR, look at his stats this month he has won everything he could.
damn no wonder skt is doing good man talk about a working horse and now reaching round of 16 8-10 spot easily
Jangbi just played flawlessly against highly skilled* opposition. Going through 2-0, this outstanding display should definitely put him past Bisu and Flash.
Jangbi just played flawlessly against highly skilled* opposition. Going through 2-0, this outstanding display should definitely put him past Bisu and Flash.
I must have completly missed the part where s2 and shuttle became "highly skilled opposition" =)
On June 24 2011 19:24 Holgerius wrote: If we ignore the three losses against Flash, which I think we should to an extent, Hydra has gotten some sick results lately. #4?
why do you think those 3 losses should be ignored? Flash didn't exactly show his A-Game lately and Hydra pretty much rolled over - not even showing any signs of resistance - in those semi-finals.
Jangbi just played flawlessly against highly skilled* opposition. Going through 2-0, this outstanding display should definitely put him past Bisu and Flash.
I must have completly missed the part where s2 and shuttle became "highly skilled opposition" =)
Given how badly he slumped before, as a fan I'll take anything I can get. Whatever, 2-0ing your group to get into the OSL proper is damn good regardless.
Need that silver so he, Stork, and great can all be silver buddies. Khan should then get PL silver and the silver mining business will be booming yet again.
Jangbi just played flawlessly against highly skilled* opposition. Going through 2-0, this outstanding display should definitely put him past Bisu and Flash.
Jangbi for number 1!!!!
I must have completly missed the part where s2 and shuttle became "highly skilled opposition" =)
Well he is #3 PvP ELO and has been #2 or #3 for like 3 years now. But he's inconsistent in the other two matches (lose to Light, beat Flash, lol).
On June 24 2011 19:24 Holgerius wrote: If we ignore the three losses against Flash, which I think we should to an extent, Hydra has gotten some sick results lately. #4?
If we ignore the losses to Flash, don't we have to ignore the win against Flash? I mean, 7-4 isn't shabby no matter how you look at it, especially when three of the losses are against Flash, but I feel like #4 might be a little high. Though I'm not sure who else earned the spot atm...
On June 24 2011 19:24 Holgerius wrote: If we ignore the three losses against Flash, which I think we should to an extent, Hydra has gotten some sick results lately. #4?
why do you think those 3 losses should be ignored? Flash didn't exactly show his A-Game lately and Hydra pretty much rolled over - not even showing any signs of resistance - in those semi-finals.
The semi-final and final was Flash's A-game. Read his interview and he'll tell you just how hard he prepared and practised for it.
jangbi can easilly take 5 and maybe even higher based on his results this month 4 in the proleague passing the prelimenaries in one of the toughest ways beating leta zero classic losing to soo is not that bad given soo late results
The throne is empty and is up for grabs this OSL. Should not be a #1 spot on July1, imo. It all hinges on whether Flash or JD can prove themselves in OSL and how hard Bisu can carry in SPL playoffs.
On June 25 2011 02:00 Mortality wrote: Flash didn't prove himself dominating MSL?
Indeed. I think Flash proved that with enough preparation he's most definitely still the top dog of the scene; he's still unbeaten in series play in the Starleauges since forever now. Next month you can begin arguing that his PL losses (which I think are solely due to his wrist problems,a although his anti-fans will argue otherwise) carry some weight, but as of right now I don't see how any one coupöd argue Flöash' is not #1. He's been tying Nada in a convincing fashion. GG, PR #1 IMO.
Jangbi making a case for a top spot is making me very happy. :D It's been quite a fucking while.
As I've said before, the OSL games were key in deciding Flash's spot. If he had gotten eliminated, I would've supported the motion to remove him from the #1 spot but he showed that he can still when it counts and because of that, I don't think the PL losses should matter too much.
My tentative ranking (I watch a lot of BW, but haven't done a ranking like this before)
1. Flash (MSL Title, advancing to OSL > wrist problem, proleague 5-loss streak) 2/3: JD/Hydra (both MSL semifinalists, advanced to OSL, did good in PL) 4. Jangbi (Finally, he's got good game. 9-1 over his last 10 games, on a streak in PL, advanced to OSL) 5. Bisu (Still a monster in PL, but didn't even advance out of OSL prelims.) 6. Zero (Got drubbed in MSL finals, didn't show up much in PL, going 2-1 after MSL finals. Didn't advance out of OSL prelims) 7. Soo (the SKT zerg that doesn't fail right now, and advanced to OSL) 8-10. Light, Movie, best (PL monsters right now, but fell out of OSL Prelims)
discuss. Also talk about CBNCs of the month.
And shoutout to Hydra for being so badass with one good eye!!
What on Earth happened to Jangbi, anyway? Having a 9 - 1 run is really impressive when he's coming off a 30% win-rate for the first four months of the year.
On June 25 2011 10:29 jpak wrote: My tentative ranking (I watch a lot of BW, but haven't done a ranking like this before)
1. Flash (MSL Title, advancing to OSL > wrist problem, proleague 5-loss streak) 2/3: JD/Hydra (both MSL semifinalists, advanced to OSL, did good in PL) 4. Jangbi (Finally, he's got good game. 9-1 over his last 10 games, on a streak in PL, advanced to OSL) 5. Bisu (Still a monster in PL, but didn't even advance out of OSL prelims.) 6. Zero (Got drubbed in MSL finals, didn't show up much in PL, going 2-1 after MSL finals. Didn't advance out of OSL prelims) 7. Soo (the SKT zerg that doesn't fail right now, and advanced to OSL) 8-10. Light, Movie, best (PL monsters right now, but fell out of OSL Prelims)
discuss. Also talk about CBNCs of the month.
And shoutout to Hydra for being so badass with one good eye!!
You know what, jpak? That's not a bad ranking for the top 5 (JD should be above Hydra undoubtedly tho). I'm really starting to feel that Bisu should be punished more for his individual league failures. There's no longer the group of death excuse and hydra and jangbi are also doing well in proleague while still advancing in leagues. I am not opposed to placing them above Bisu, but there's still a few games left this month so let's see if Bisu plays JD tomorrow or something like that.
This will probably be one of the last months where Bisu will be placed relatively high on the PR. Once the OSL starts up he wont have as many games to prove himself as other players do. Hopefully the MSL starts soon again as well so Bisu can have some results in an individual league.
Roro for CBNC please, knocking out Movie from OSL given the vZ run he's on is very nice, great game vs Bisu. Haven't thought about how I'd rank things apart from Flash #1, I kind of think Bisu/JD/Hydra in some order, would autopick Bisu but lol hyvaa 5 pool, would pick JD but the early part of his month was a joke, Hydra kind of got bitchslapped by Flash hard but was already accounted for in the last PR
I don't think Jangbi deserves top 5, nice run this month but apart from beating Horang2 and a couple of good players in the wildcard OSL qualifier his strength of schedule is a joke, he should be winning most of those games and it's only a surprise because of how terrible he's played for a long time. Movie should be above him.
Don't worry about Stork. Stork basically always rise in the PR during SL season, then tapers off when it's only PL around. But right when everyone forgets him, he'd oddly just turn it on for some reason and get into SL BoXs. Then he'd fail somewhere between Ro8 and Finals, get depressed and start failing against in the PL, and drop out of the PR again.
On June 27 2011 01:28 baubo wrote: Don't worry about Stork. Stork basically always rise in the PR during SL season, then tapers off when it's only PL around. But right when everyone forgets him, he'd oddly just turn it on for some reason and get into SL BoXs. Then he'd fail somewhere between Ro8 and Finals, get depressed and start failing against in the PL, and drop out of the PR again.
It's the cycle of Stork's career.
Really? Wow, I wonder why I haven't notice this trend.... Hopefully you are right cuz his games were starting to worrying me.
On June 26 2011 23:14 sixfour wrote: Roro for CBNC please, knocking out Movie from OSL given the vZ run he's on is very nice, great game vs Bisu. Haven't thought about how I'd rank things apart from Flash #1, I kind of think Bisu/JD/Hydra in some order, would autopick Bisu but lol hyvaa 5 pool, would pick JD but the early part of his month was a joke, Hydra kind of got bitchslapped by Flash hard but was already accounted for in the last PR
I don't think Jangbi deserves top 5, nice run this month but apart from beating Horang2 and a couple of good players in the wildcard OSL qualifier his strength of schedule is a joke, he should be winning most of those games and it's only a surprise because of how terrible he's played for a long time. Movie should be above him.
Movie, Horang2, Bisu, and JangBi have all done well in proleague in June. But obviously one of those names did something the others failed to do. You have to take that into consideration. I'm not saying JangBi must be above all of them, but you would have to make a very strong case that their proleagues results are significantly better than JangBi's, Because JangBi is in the Ro16 while the others failed to advance in the prelims. And that is a significant advantage for him.
On June 27 2011 00:07 gen.Sun wrote: Jangbi's run is like shines IMO. Full of bad players.
It's a good sign but I don't think he's back yet.
Stork should be on the list. His game is good, all his losses were BO.
Starting in May, Jangbi has gone 10-1 in televised games, with an additional 9-2 in OSL prelims.
His losses are to soO, which is normally worrying but soO's playing really well right now; and Hydra, which yeah. So nothing to worry about.
He's beaten Sea, Stats, Crazy-Hydra, Hyuk, Horang2, s2, Shuttle, and Hyun, all of whom are Proleague regulars. Sea, Horang2, and maybe Stats are top players: Horang2 and Shuttle have been #2 and #3 PvP for pretty much the last two years. In prelims he beat ZerO (also Leta, but Leta's TvP ugh), and took down up-and-comers Classic and Sharp. Even Perfective and Sang are seeing time.
Sure, sacsri's a scrub, and Last is bad even though STX is getting desperate and playing him a bunch - but, um... where is this run "full of bad players" you're talking about?
I'm reluctant to give Jangbi a top 5 spot for the same reason I was arguing earlier that Horang2 stays above BeSt: Jangbi's been awful for the last two years and then suddenly started playing well again last month. But with his progressing in Starleagues and owning Proleague, assuming he keeps up both, I think he's looking at a 5-7 spot - not higher unless a bunch of people faceplant.
On June 27 2011 04:06 Crisium wrote: Movie, Horang2, Bisu, and JangBi have all done well in proleague in June. But obviously one of those names did something the others failed to do. You have to take that into consideration. I'm not saying JangBi must be above all of them, but you would have to make a very strong case that their proleagues results are significantly better than JangBi's, Because JangBi is in the Ro16 while the others failed to advance in the prelims. And that is a significant advantage for him.
The others all have something Jangbi doesn't have though: PROOF. Power Rank is about who is the "hottest," who is the most "powerful." Forgetting the meaning of Power Rank, just asking "who on paper produced the nicest looking results this month" is not what this is all about. Anyone who wants to know that can quit being lazy and just open up TLPD. Is Jangbi's one good month really enough to make up for almost a year of consistent failure?
Jangbi is in the Ro16 of OSL. For a player who we rank in top 4 on PR and has not yet been eliminated, my expectation is that he's a shoe-in for a semifinals at the least. Obviously there are no guarantees, but that's what I expect out of top 4.
So the question is this: how confident are we that Jangbi will press on?
See, this is why I'm favoring Bisu: yes he has this awful tendency right now to lose to players he shouldn't (although I'll say this again: tell me to my face that hyvaa played bad -- I don't care that hyvaa has a crappy record, I care about how he PLAYED), but if you look at his skill and you look at the skill of his opponents, who is favored to beat him? Flash and? Maybe Hydra. Fantasy and Hiya have a decent chance. Stork and Kal were doing a number on him earlier in the year, but both of them suck right now. And despite Bisu's tendency to under perform in SL, does anyone doubt that he deserves proleague MVP?
Who are we confident Jangbi would slam in a bo5? What accomplishments does he have in the past 6 months? Past year?
On June 27 2011 04:06 Crisium wrote: Movie, Horang2, Bisu, and JangBi have all done well in proleague in June. But obviously one of those names did something the others failed to do. You have to take that into consideration. I'm not saying JangBi must be above all of them, but you would have to make a very strong case that their proleagues results are significantly better than JangBi's, Because JangBi is in the Ro16 while the others failed to advance in the prelims. And that is a significant advantage for him.
The others all have something Jangbi doesn't have though: PROOF. Power Rank is about who is the "hottest," who is the most "powerful." Forgetting the meaning of Power Rank, just asking "who on paper produced the nicest looking results this month" is not what this is all about. Anyone who wants to know that can quit being lazy and just open up TLPD. Is Jangbi's one good month really enough to make up for almost a year of consistent failure?
Jangbi is in the Ro16 of OSL. For a player who we rank in top 4 on PR and has not yet been eliminated, my expectation is that he's a shoe-in for a semifinals at the least. Obviously there are no guarantees, but that's what I expect out of top 4.
So the question is this: how confident are we that Jangbi will press on?
See, this is why I'm favoring Bisu: yes he has this awful tendency right now to lose to players he shouldn't (although I'll say this again: tell me to my face that hyvaa played bad -- I don't care that hyvaa has a crappy record, I care about how he PLAYED), but if you look at his skill and you look at the skill of his opponents, who is favored to beat him? Flash and? Maybe Hydra. Fantasy and Hiya have a decent chance. Stork and Kal were doing a number on him earlier in the year, but both of them suck right now. And despite Bisu's tendency to under perform in SL, does anyone doubt that he deserves proleague MVP?
Who are we confident Jangbi would slam in a bo5? What accomplishments does he have in the past 6 months? Past year?
Jangbi's play hasn't been bad, but he hasn't offered PROOF that he's here to stay.
i'd say losing in the finals of his group only to comeback with a wild card is proof enough of his reluctant to go back into his old ways the old jangbi would have lost to perfective realizing if he's won he still would have to beat leta and zero and with your logic i wouldnt trust my life in bisu reaching round of 16 does that mean bisu is bad? no jangbi made a long way andthe results are finally showing off in my opinion you still are to attached to the old jangbi ..(and it may be the same jangbi that plays today) but so far you cant judge a person that is showing change with the "no way he takes a bo5 vs anyone" statement since he clearly would not have made such results had he not changed . the question is has he changed enough to be up with the top 5 i believe so and of course the same coin has its other side as well http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=63&part=games&vs=all&league=any&map=any&from_year=2011&from_month=4&from_day=30&to_year=2011&to_month=11&to_day=28&action=Update
On June 27 2011 04:06 Crisium wrote: Movie, Horang2, Bisu, and JangBi have all done well in proleague in June. But obviously one of those names did something the others failed to do. You have to take that into consideration. I'm not saying JangBi must be above all of them, but you would have to make a very strong case that their proleagues results are significantly better than JangBi's, Because JangBi is in the Ro16 while the others failed to advance in the prelims. And that is a significant advantage for him.
The others all have something Jangbi doesn't have though: PROOF. Power Rank is about who is the "hottest," who is the most "powerful." Forgetting the meaning of Power Rank, just asking "who on paper produced the nicest looking results this month" is not what this is all about. Anyone who wants to know that can quit being lazy and just open up TLPD. Is Jangbi's one good month really enough to make up for almost a year of consistent failure?
Jangbi is in the Ro16 of OSL. For a player who we rank in top 4 on PR and has not yet been eliminated, my expectation is that he's a shoe-in for a semifinals at the least. Obviously there are no guarantees, but that's what I expect out of top 4.
So the question is this: how confident are we that Jangbi will press on?
See, this is why I'm favoring Bisu: yes he has this awful tendency right now to lose to players he shouldn't (although I'll say this again: tell me to my face that hyvaa played bad -- I don't care that hyvaa has a crappy record, I care about how he PLAYED), but if you look at his skill and you look at the skill of his opponents, who is favored to beat him? Flash and? Maybe Hydra. Fantasy and Hiya have a decent chance. Stork and Kal were doing a number on him earlier in the year, but both of them suck right now. And despite Bisu's tendency to under perform in SL, does anyone doubt that he deserves proleague MVP?
Who are we confident Jangbi would slam in a bo5? What accomplishments does he have in the past 6 months? Past year?
Jangbi's play hasn't been bad, but he hasn't offered PROOF that he's here to stay.
Mortality you sound like a Bisu fan :p. The Bisu fan in me is falling in love with you.
And i personally wont favor Hydra against Bisu. Sure he recently dropped a few games vs lesser Zergs (if u can call Roro lesser), but hes been good for too long for me to drop him out of my "PvZ auto-win" list. Plus his opponents played brilliantly, hyvaa and Roro both.
On June 27 2011 07:11 ffreakk wrote: Mortality you sound like a Bisu fan :p. The Bisu fan in me is falling in love with you.
He's not. I'm not either, and I actually agree: Jangbi is on fire, but that's a Khan thing--when a player does well, he goes ^_^ and does really well for a while. But this is the same argument as we had against BeSt (though BeSt dropped out of OSL prelims playing PvT of all matchups...): Jangbi has been a paewang for a year, two years now. Old veterans who have been slumping have more... "power rank inertia," if you'd call it that; clearly he deserves a PR spot, but even I wouldn't agree with Jangbi being placed above Bisu, and I am a Jangbi fan and not a Bisu fan. If Jangbi makes the Ro4 or even Ro8 while Bisu starts losing games next month, perhaps he can pass Bisu... but Bisu has consistently been the best Protoss in the world for this season (except PvP against Stork/Kal).
On June 27 2011 04:06 Crisium wrote: Movie, Horang2, Bisu, and JangBi have all done well in proleague in June. But obviously one of those names did something the others failed to do. You have to take that into consideration. I'm not saying JangBi must be above all of them, but you would have to make a very strong case that their proleagues results are significantly better than JangBi's, Because JangBi is in the Ro16 while the others failed to advance in the prelims. And that is a significant advantage for him.
The others all have something Jangbi doesn't have though: PROOF. Power Rank is about who is the "hottest," who is the most "powerful." Forgetting the meaning of Power Rank, just asking "who on paper produced the nicest looking results this month" is not what this is all about. Anyone who wants to know that can quit being lazy and just open up TLPD. Is Jangbi's one good month really enough to make up for almost a year of consistent failure?
Jangbi is in the Ro16 of OSL. For a player who we rank in top 4 on PR and has not yet been eliminated, my expectation is that he's a shoe-in for a semifinals at the least. Obviously there are no guarantees, but that's what I expect out of top 4.
So the question is this: how confident are we that Jangbi will press on?
See, this is why I'm favoring Bisu: yes he has this awful tendency right now to lose to players he shouldn't (although I'll say this again: tell me to my face that hyvaa played bad -- I don't care that hyvaa has a crappy record, I care about how he PLAYED), but if you look at his skill and you look at the skill of his opponents, who is favored to beat him? Flash and? Maybe Hydra. Fantasy and Hiya have a decent chance. Stork and Kal were doing a number on him earlier in the year, but both of them suck right now. And despite Bisu's tendency to under perform in SL, does anyone doubt that he deserves proleague MVP?
Who are we confident Jangbi would slam in a bo5? What accomplishments does he have in the past 6 months? Past year?
Jangbi's play hasn't been bad, but he hasn't offered PROOF that he's here to stay.
Mortality you sound like a Bisu fan :p. The Bisu fan in me is falling in love with you.
And i personally wont favor Hydra against Bisu. Sure he recently dropped a few games vs lesser Zergs (if u can call Roro lesser), but hes been good for too long for me to drop him out of my "PvZ auto-win" list. Plus his opponents played brilliantly, hyvaa and Roro both.
I'm not a Bisu fan at all. Most months I'm arguing with the Bisu fans. The problem is, who do you put over Bisu? Flash, Hydra and Jaedong, yes. But after that?
Zero? Errrrr -- I love Zero and he wasn't nearly as terrible in his series against Flash as the 3-0 record suggests and he dropped 1-2 in the prelims to a competent ZvZer on A-team (s2). Just being in the finals is a huge accomplishment, but other than being in the finals... what? He hasn't shown anything too fantastic in his game play either. A large part of me wants to give him a good rank for his well earned title shot, but another part of me says the momentum is totally gone.
Jangbi? Don't kid me. One good month doesn't make up for an entire year of failure. A GREAT month could, but anyone who thinks this has been a GREAT month has forgotten that Jangbi is only at the Ro16 still. If he were in the finals right now I'd be preaching a different tune. How many times have we seen a player tear his way through prelims and wannabes only to crash on the big stage? Sea does it practically every other season!
Movie? Horang2? If either of them had made it to OSL maybe. Both of them have been playing good enough, LONG enough to achieve some high profile wins and PROVE that their current results aren't statistical anomalies. But they also fell it the prelims and Bisu has more wins than BOTH of them COMBINED. Similar arguments rule out Soulkey and Light.
Bisu earned #1 ELO through clean, consistent play. His individual league results may suck, but in PL nobody can touch him. He HAS to be #4. Anything else would be a crime.
Face it: if Jangbi weren't a member of the Kong line, hardly anybody would be blinking an eye right now. And if he had earned his place in the Kong line recently, that would be one thing, but the Jangbi of right now is trying to break free from being known as... KING OF THE LOSERS.
Hmm, I have been persuaded. Bisu should be above JangBi for July. But if I were flamewheel i would have to stay my hand and think awfully carefully about placing Movie or Horang2 above the Almighty King of Storms.
although flash is still the obvious best player i don't know if he should be even on the power rank if he's effectively on the disabled list for this month
On June 27 2011 12:15 traced wrote: although flash is still the obvious best player i don't know if he should be even on the power rank if he's effectively on the disabled list for this month
excellent. let us remove him from the list so I dont have to see his name. Now we just need a convoluted argument to get bisu to first
On June 27 2011 12:15 traced wrote: although flash is still the obvious best player i don't know if he should be even on the power rank if he's effectively on the disabled list for this month
Being on the disabled list didn't stop him from winning MSL... THIS MONTH.
but that's not the point of power ranks, it's about a player's "power" going forward, and all flash will be powering this month is a medicine ball to strengthen his right wrist. how can a player have power for july if they're not going to play?
Flash will be playing in OSL. Just not in PL. And it doesn't make sense to put him on the PL roster anyway since KT has long since lost any chance at top 2. In terms of playoffs, there's no difference between being rank 3 and being rank 6. They are guaranteed to be top 6, guaranteed to not be top 2. What difference does it make whether he plays or not?!
On June 27 2011 13:34 Mortality wrote: What difference does it make whether he plays or not?!
pretty sure whether a player can play is innate to power rank placement
i had assumed he wouldn't be playing until next season but if he (or his team) forces himself to play in the osl/playoffs then that's obviously a different circumstance
Mortality, why did you bump Bisu back to the 4th spot all of a sudden when you were placing him in the 2nd spot for most of the month (even after the prelims)? His game against Hiya pretty much confirmed that he has the best PvT right now. Meanwhile, Jaedong has just been owning Terrans as usual. Impressive, but not enough to warrant him being placed above Bisu. If JD faced Bisu and beat him, I would definitely agree with him being above Bisu but as it stands, he still hasn't proved himself in ZvZ and ZvP this month. Hydra hasn't really done anything spectacular either.
Right now, this is how I would rank them: 1) Flash 2) Bisu 3) Jaedong 4) Hydra 5) Jangbi 6) Movie Haven't given much thought about the placement of the others.
On June 27 2011 19:47 DarkMatter_ wrote: Mortality, why did you bump Bisu back to the 4th spot all of a sudden when you were placing him in the 2nd spot for most of the month (even after the prelims)? His game against Hiya pretty much confirmed that he has the best PvT right now. Meanwhile, Jaedong has just been owning Terrans as usual. Impressive, but not enough to warrant him being placed above Bisu. If JD faced Bisu and beat him, I would definitely agree with him being above Bisu but as it stands, he still hasn't proved himself in ZvZ and ZvP this month. Hydra hasn't really done anything spectacular either.
Right now, this is how I would rank them: 1) Flash 2) Bisu 3) Jaedong 4) Hydra 5) Jangbi 6) Movie Haven't given much thought about the placement of the others.
I LOVE your ranking <3
Sadly many will disagree, cos JD is in the OSL and Bisu isnt.
But PL man, PL!!! xD JD was on the worst losing streak in his entire carrer earlier this month, Bisu owned everything up (other than 1-2 the OSL prelims)..
Well, with my ranking I counted going up in individual leagues a lot more than a lot of other people. That's why I put Jangbi above Bisu, and Bisu's not going to rise any further in my mind until he starts going far in the next MSL or something.
PL monsters remain just that this month: PL monsters.
People who say Jangbi hasn't played anyone should watch some of his recent games. No, he's not beating the cream of the crop, but you can see that he's simply outplaying his opponents. You don't get the sense of "oh my god he won but they both look horrible" after watching. His game has been quite clean and crisp. Basically he's playing at a level you'd expect from one of the best BW players.
That said, Jangbi shouldn't be above TLS+hydra. I'd be quite happy with him at #5 though, and wouldn't mind him a bit lower if there are some other players who've been hot lately.
On June 27 2011 19:47 DarkMatter_ wrote: Mortality, why did you bump Bisu back to the 4th spot all of a sudden when you were placing him in the 2nd spot for most of the month (even after the prelims)? His game against Hiya pretty much confirmed that he has the best PvT right now. Meanwhile, Jaedong has just been owning Terrans as usual. Impressive, but not enough to warrant him being placed above Bisu. If JD faced Bisu and beat him, I would definitely agree with him being above Bisu but as it stands, he still hasn't proved himself in ZvZ and ZvP this month. Hydra hasn't really done anything spectacular either.
Right now, this is how I would rank them: 1) Flash 2) Bisu 3) Jaedong 4) Hydra 5) Jangbi 6) Movie Haven't given much thought about the placement of the others.
He is the best PvT. And the best PvZ. And he and Horang2 keep switching for highest PvP ELO.
The more I think about it the more I consider that even a slumping Jaedong can consistently make the semifinals and that Hydra has the best overall tournament record of anyone in 2011. And both of them are playing really, really good right now.
1) Flash (he is playing badly due to his injury but still, he just won 6th gold) 2) Yellow (he deserves this spot once again, for the last time ) 3) Jaedong (yes, the beginning of his month was very bad, but he went to a nice win streak after that and was able to beat Flash twice (have 4 win streak against him)) 4) Bisu (he was knocked from OSL, but very strong in Proleague) 5) Hydra 6-10) Jangbi, Hoorang, Zero, Movie, FBH in some order
On June 28 2011 08:11 Crisium wrote: ^n.Die_soO should be on the PR.
Hrrrm.
Flash, JD, Hydra, Bisu, Jangbi are all definitely on even if they fuck up D- level for whatever is left of the month. Movie, Horang2, Zero, Light all deserve a spot methinks. Maaaaybe Soulkey.
Soo might squeeze in to #10, possibly knocking Soulkey down to CBNC. Problem with Soo is he's been pretty much riding one match-up only. He'll at least get CBNC, but I don't really see him getting past #10 on PR.
Best might still eek into CBNC, but I think his PR shot is finished.
Sea will deserve a CBNC if he passes his ODT group.
Bogus deserves a CBNC methinks.
Would have said Mind if he had survived his ODT group.
FBH could still be put CBNC maaaaaaybe. But I feel like that's stretching it. CBNC is really for people who arguably deserve a PR spot and by arguably I don't mean "1 or 2 people think he deserves it." He's still looking good, but he's losing a bit of steam. A win over an SKT1 player in the PL match on the 29th would secure a CBNC minimum depending on who he beats. A loss would knock him out of the running.
Soulkey has played very, very, mediocre competition since the last PR besides Bogus. And he hasn't done much with it, including losing in the prelims to a sub-40% ZvZer. Woongjin still has 3 games left I think, so we shall see. If he is instrumental in securing a #4 seed for the Stars then he can get the nod, but otherwise I think he has cooled off a bit.
Don't forget that Soo also kicked ass in May, so it's not too sudden a thing. He is nearly perfect in ZvP for a couple months and he is perfect in ZvZ, even if only 3 games. His ZvT is unproven, but he proved his worth by defeating Mind when it mattered the most and advancing to the Ro16.
It seems like "Doing well in PL" or equivalent is turning into some sort of buzz phrase that you can use to simplify Bisu's record down and dismiss it, without outright ignoring it but without giving any credit to what it actually is.
If he went 2-1 against Hyvaa instead of 1-2 he would be undeniably 1st place, yet let's drop him down to p4 (or 5, lol Jangbi) because of that or because the games had "OSL" in the title?
He has not lost to anybody playing badly or due to bad play. Hyvaa and Roro both played great Starcraft to beat Bisu. Pushing wins and losses aside his actual play is great. Hi Hiya.
His record is better than Flash, JD and Hydra this month whether you include OSL Prelims or not and unlike JD he actually has a good record in more than one MU.
Elo #1. Peaking in his 'bad' MU. One loss sitting on consecutive peaks in his good MU.
The best evidence he is powerful is that this is not a streak. WL 30-10 (75%). PL 34-5 (87%) (!!?) That is not doing well. Those are not the kind of numbers you can push aside and say "Eh, he does well in PL but can't qualify for OSL". To do so is such a shallow or disingenuous summary.
Yeah sure, Flash just won an MSL and received his golden badge this month (going for a combined 6-0 in semi-final and final). Surely Bisu would be the undeniable first place if he managed to pass the ODT prelim!
On a more serious note, I actually have no problem putting Bisu second. I feel that Jaedong and Bisu are interchangeable at 2 and 3. Yes, Jaedong does have a worse record and is coming out of his worst losing streak, but he's now on 7 game win streak against quality opponents, including Flash twice, as shown HERE.
While Bisu's list of opponent isn't exactly too intimidating, as shown HERE.
Bisu is having a monstrous pro-league season for sure, but greatness is not measured by a team-event but by individual achievements. For every Elo-peaking win from the proleague, there's also the lingering notion that Bisu hasn't gotten remotely close to competing for a title in a long time... or winning a BoX against a competent opponent, for that matter.
On June 28 2011 15:52 Lachrymose wrote: If he went 2-1 against Hyvaa instead of 1-2 he would be undeniably 1st place, ...
Actually no, in such a case Flash would still win MSL and Bisu would be just in Ro24 of OSL. In such a case, Bisu would deserve to be #2 and JD #3. But it didn't happened ...
Bisu is playing very good this year, but he is playing just in PL, without having to split his practice time to SLs. Also, it seems for him to be much easier to play against unknown opponent than in SL where the opponent is pre-determined. I think #3 is very good for someone who is just playing PL.
On June 28 2011 17:13 bearbuddy wrote: Yeah sure, Flash just won an MSL and received his golden badge this month (going for a combined 6-0 in semi-final and final). Surely Bisu would be the undeniable first place if he managed to pass the ODT prelim!
On a more serious note, I actually have no problem putting Bisu second. I feel that Jaedong and Bisu are interchangeable at 2 and 3. Yes, Jaedong does have a worse record and is coming out of his worst losing streak, but he's now on 7 game win streak against quality opponents, including Flash twice, as shown HERE.
While Bisu's list of opponent isn't exactly too intimidating, as shown HERE.
Bisu is having a monstrous pro-league season for sure, but greatness is not measured by a team-event but by individual achievements. For every Elo-peaking win from the proleague, there's also the lingering notion that Bisu hasn't gotten remotely close to competing for a title in a long time... or winning a BoX against a competent opponent, for that matter.
Yup I agree. I also didn't notice the quality of player difference for both lol. I feel jaedong definitely deserves second on this PR. I can agree with flash staying #1 due to crushing the MSL semi's and finals as I honestly thought Zero would beat him or it would be a close 3-2. Was so shocked to see a 3-0.
I do not feel bisu deserves it. I don't care how strong his proleague record his. for someone who's supposed to have amazing pvz and to lose in a bo3 to hyvaa in the OSl prelims to fail to qualify just doesn't deserve 2nd to me. Bisu has been failing in leagues forever.
On June 28 2011 15:52 Lachrymose wrote: It seems like "Doing well in PL" or equivalent is turning into some sort of buzz phrase that you can use to simplify Bisu's record down and dismiss it, without outright ignoring it but without giving any credit to what it actually is.
If he went 2-1 against Hyvaa instead of 1-2 he would be undeniably 1st place, yet let's drop him down to p4 (or 5, lol Jangbi) because of that or because the games had "OSL" in the title?
He has not lost to anybody playing badly or due to bad play. Hyvaa and Roro both played great Starcraft to beat Bisu. Pushing wins and losses aside his actual play is great. Hi Hiya.
His record is better than Flash, JD and Hydra this month whether you include OSL Prelims or not and unlike JD he actually has a good record in more than one MU.
Elo #1. Peaking in his 'bad' MU. One loss sitting on consecutive peaks in his good MU.
The best evidence he is powerful is that this is not a streak. WL 30-10 (75%). PL 34-5 (87%) (!!?) That is not doing well. Those are not the kind of numbers you can push aside and say "Eh, he does well in PL but can't qualify for OSL". To do so is such a shallow or disingenuous summary.
On the other hand, he is out of OSL and has to drag himself from MST. It's easy to be great at PL when you've had nothing else to do, this is the reason Flash was rarely if ever the #1 player for almost 2 years because he constantly failed in tournaments despite being clearly the best PL player. The difference is, Flash atleast qualified for the tournament before getting knocked out.
On June 28 2011 15:52 Lachrymose wrote: It seems like "Doing well in PL" or equivalent is turning into some sort of buzz phrase that you can use to simplify Bisu's record down and dismiss it, without outright ignoring it but without giving any credit to what it actually is.
If he went 2-1 against Hyvaa instead of 1-2 he would be undeniably 1st place, yet let's drop him down to p4 (or 5, lol Jangbi) because of that or because the games had "OSL" in the title?
He has not lost to anybody playing badly or due to bad play. Hyvaa and Roro both played great Starcraft to beat Bisu. Pushing wins and losses aside his actual play is great. Hi Hiya.
His record is better than Flash, JD and Hydra this month whether you include OSL Prelims or not and unlike JD he actually has a good record in more than one MU.
Elo #1. Peaking in his 'bad' MU. One loss sitting on consecutive peaks in his good MU.
The best evidence he is powerful is that this is not a streak. WL 30-10 (75%). PL 34-5 (87%) (!!?) That is not doing well. Those are not the kind of numbers you can push aside and say "Eh, he does well in PL but can't qualify for OSL". To do so is such a shallow or disingenuous summary.
On the other hand, he is out of OSL and has to drag himself from MST. It's easy to be great at PL when you've had nothing else to do, this is the reason Flash was rarely if ever the #1 player for almost 2 years because he constantly failed in tournaments despite being clearly the best PL player. The difference is, Flash atleast qualified for the tournament before getting knocked out.
Jaedong then was more dominant than Jaedong now.
There was no Flash back then, although the Flash now wont join the PR for a while after this month, probably.
Flash wasnt as much a PL monster is Bisu is right now.
I agree with the guy above. Rather than looking at the record, we should also look at the quality of games. If he failed like Fanta did vs Mind, nvm putting him anywhere in top 3. But those 3 games were all well-played. Losing 1-2 to a Zerg that played brilliantly is something anyone would do. Wiping all other achievement in the light of "pff he lost a (few) games" without bothering to look into the actual game is either just being plain lazy or outright biased, imho.
Jaedong looked bad at the beginning of the month, Flash did at the end due to his lack of practice. Those contenders for no.1 place has some major glaring faults too, imho.
Talk about "coming close" for prelims is reaching so much it's not even funny. It's the freaking prelims for christ sakes. This isn't "he lost 2-3 against Flash in the semi-finals" type of consolation. This is "losing 1-2 to hyvaa in the prelims".
I think rather well of Bisu, and think he deserves more slack than most PL monsters of the past(Leta, Flash of yesteryear, Sea, etc.) But losing to hyvaa in the prelims should get no credit regardless of what happened.
I'm not buying this "Bisu lost 1-2 to a zerg that played brilliantly" argument. It seems like each time Bisu gets knocked out from a starleague, there's some rationalization as to why we shouldn't be too harsh on him. First, it was because it was his arch nemesis Shine being cheesy. Then it was because he faced Stork. Then it was because he got placed in the group of death and lost to Flash. Now he gets knocked out by a total scrub of a zerg and we're trying to rationalize it by talking about how well he played? Rookies/scrubs stepping up their game in the individual leagues against an S-class player is nothing new. Jaedong and Flash face it all the time. Being an S-class player, you're supposed to overcome that.
Ah okay, so it doesn't matter how well somebody is playing or how many games they win. All that matters is achievements.
The MSL finals and a golden badge are a great achievement, no doubt, however games are games. Zero, for instance, rolled over and died. Just because Flash won a golden badge for it doesn't mean it makes him look like the most powerful player on earth. I'm not saying it doesn't either, but when somebody like Luxury wins an MSL they don't make PR#1 because they're not that good.
Flash followed up his MSL victory with losing a whole bunch then going on break. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence that he is the most powerful player. Still, I'm not saying he isn't, but this is more because nobody did anything good enough to displace him than him looking untouchable.
As for the rest:
"It's just PL, who cares" If it were so easy why doesn't everybody dominate? And why do we weigh consistant play over the course of dozens of games against random opponents less than 1-3 games against prepared snipers? Is Starcraft somehow more 'pure' when you replace robust play with targetted play? I seem to remember when Flash failed in tournaments it was because he had to carry in PL. Bisu does great in PL and it is because he failed in tournaments. Flash only fails because of his success. Bisu only succeeds because of his failure. Seems fair.
"His PvZ is supposed to be great but he lost to Hyvaa so he auto-sucks" Also known as the "I don't know anything about PvZ" argument, supplimented with a health dose of "I didn't watch the game and I think Hyvaa is bad so he must have played bad".
and
"He is out of OSL and lost in MSL groups" Well yeah, I realise that, which is the very same simplification which was the whole point of my post.
He is out of the OSL because he lost 1-2 to Hyvaa. Hyvaa played great. Losing to somebody because they played great isn't that bad and doesn't make you look weak. It doesn't matter when or where the game was.
He is in MST because he lost 0-2 to Flash. It's God. Damn. Flash.
Nobody is focusing on the Starcraft he actually plays - just "He is out of leagues. Don't care why. Don't care what else he is doing".
1. Win in the prelims(or have done so in the past and then play well enough to stay out of it) 2. Win in the MST/MSL Group Stage/ODT 3. Win in the Ro16 4. Win in the Ro8 5 .Win in the Ro4 6. Win in the Finals
Any title win is an achievement that is the culmination of all the previous achievements. You must have overcome all the obstacles beforehand to even reach it. To say it's okay to fail at stage #1 and undersell a Finals win is utter BS.
On June 28 2011 15:35 Crisium wrote: Don't forget that Soo also kicked ass in May, so it's not too sudden a thing. He is nearly perfect in ZvP for a couple months and he is perfect in ZvZ, even if only 3 games. His ZvT is unproven, but he proved his worth by defeating Mind when it mattered the most and advancing to the Ro8.
God, this reminds me of JWD's PR when flash won GOM with losing ONE game during the whole tournament and still he wasn't on the PR at all. If Golden Badge and the best career record ever doesn't qualify you for nr. 1, i don't know what does. SKT fans should be rational and not shout Bisu bonjwa during every relatively short winning streak (Flash had much better many times...).
If Bisu beat hyvaa then he may still have not advanced as he lost in the semi finals of his prelim group.
JangBi has had a pretty awesome proleague month and advanced from the prelims via that brutal wildcard, advanced from his ODT group 2-0 and is now in the OSL proper =].
YellOw has also decreed that as a reward for JangBi's loyalty to the kong line the upcoming OSL is his for the taking.
On June 28 2011 21:17 johanes wrote: God, this reminds me of JWD's PR when flash won GOM with losing ONE game during the whole tournament and still he wasn't on the PR at all. If Golden Badge and the best career record ever doesn't qualify you for nr. 1, i don't know what does. SKT fans should be rational and not shout Bisu bonjwa during every relatively short winning streak (Flash had much better many times...).
Kindly enlighten me as to what is your point. I dont see anyone arguing that Flash should not be number 1, i dont see anyone arguing that Bisu is number 1 either (clearly i dont mind that he is :p but...) I will still reply to them, for argument's sake.
1/ Career records are hardly relevant as far as PR is concerned, i believe.. Or else Oov Nada, Savior would still be up there, and never a rookie. While they can be taken into consideration (like JD's case last month, aka giving him the benefit of the doubt), its mostly a player's recent record that is looked into.
2/ That "relatively short winning streak" you are talking about involves setting a new record for Most-wins achieved in a SPL season ever, nabbing the Most Win King title of the season in the process. >80% win-rate over the whole season.
I maintain that we should look at how the player in question played his game too, outside of the simple win/lose result. Other arguing points have already been mentioned in my previous post, so i wont repeat them.
On June 28 2011 15:52 Lachrymose wrote: It seems like "Doing well in PL" or equivalent is turning into some sort of buzz phrase that you can use to simplify Bisu's record down and dismiss it, without outright ignoring it but without giving any credit to what it actually is.
If he went 2-1 against Hyvaa instead of 1-2 he would be undeniably 1st place, yet let's drop him down to p4 (or 5, lol Jangbi) because of that or because the games had "OSL" in the title?
He has not lost to anybody playing badly or due to bad play. Hyvaa and Roro both played great Starcraft to beat Bisu. Pushing wins and losses aside his actual play is great. Hi Hiya.
His record is better than Flash, JD and Hydra this month whether you include OSL Prelims or not and unlike JD he actually has a good record in more than one MU.
Elo #1. Peaking in his 'bad' MU. One loss sitting on consecutive peaks in his good MU.
The best evidence he is powerful is that this is not a streak. WL 30-10 (75%). PL 34-5 (87%) (!!?) That is not doing well. Those are not the kind of numbers you can push aside and say "Eh, he does well in PL but can't qualify for OSL". To do so is such a shallow or disingenuous summary.
On the other hand, he is out of OSL and has to drag himself from MST. It's easy to be great at PL when you've had nothing else to do, this is the reason Flash was rarely if ever the #1 player for almost 2 years because he constantly failed in tournaments despite being clearly the best PL player. The difference is, Flash atleast qualified for the tournament before getting knocked out.
Jaedong then was more dominant than Jaedong now.
There was no Flash back then, although the Flash now wont join the PR for a while after this month, probably.
Flash wasnt as much a PL monster is Bisu is right now.
I agree with the guy above. Rather than looking at the record, we should also look at the quality of games. If he failed like Fanta did vs Mind, nvm putting him anywhere in top 3. But those 3 games were all well-played. Losing 1-2 to a Zerg that played brilliantly is something anyone would do. Wiping all other achievement in the light of "pff he lost a (few) games" without bothering to look into the actual game is either just being plain lazy or outright biased, imho.
Jaedong looked bad at the beginning of the month, Flash did at the end due to his lack of practice. Those contenders for no.1 place has some major glaring faults too, imho.
What are you even saying? There was no Flash back then, what? Do you seriously understand what you just said?
Flash won't join the PR this month when he's the shoe-in #1? Flash has won more titles this month than Bisu has in three years, and did so by 6-0ing his competition. Bisu could go undefeated in PL and it wouldn't make up for not showing up in either tournament. I don't care how good the games were, we all hold Bisu to a standard of being clearly and absolutely better than every single player in those prelims, in every one of his matchups. Hyvaa having a good day is a good excuse for dropping a PL game, not for dropping a best of 3 to even attempt to get into the tournament that gets you into the OSL. It's a disgrace for him, good games or not.
And I watched the games -- Hyvaa played a little cheesey and followed it up with good macro games. That's cool, great on him for playing well. Bisu should play better if he wants to be held in the same breath as Flash and Jaedong.
On June 28 2011 20:32 Lachrymose wrote: Ah okay, so it doesn't matter how well somebody is playing or how many games they win. All that matters is achievements.
The MSL finals and a golden badge are a great achievement, no doubt, however games are games. Zero, for instance, rolled over and died. Just because Flash won a golden badge for it doesn't mean it makes him look like the most powerful player on earth. I'm not saying it doesn't either, but when somebody like Luxury wins an MSL they don't make PR#1 because they're not that good.
Are you kidding me? Luxury shot straight up to #2 for winning the MSL, and the only reason he didn't get #1 is because Jaedong won the OSL. The same goes for Calm, the only reason he wasn't #1 was because Jaedong was the OSL champ.
You want another example? Guess a player who's only won 1 msl, and crushed his competition, and shot up to #1 on the PR for one month before never coming back? ForGG! The precedent applies as much as it doesn't, and we don't have a recent OSL Champ to knock Flash off his perch (because Fantasy is slumping about as hard as flash).
"It's just PL, who cares" If it were so easy why doesn't everybody dominate?And why do we weigh consistant play over the course of dozens of games against random opponents less than 1-3 games against prepared snipers? Is Starcraft somehow more 'pure' when you replace robust play with targetted play? I seem to remember when Flash failed in tournaments it was because he had to carry in PL. Bisu does great in PL and it is because he failed in tournaments. Flash only fails because of his success. Bisu only succeeds because of his failure. Seems fair.
They show up to play in individual leagues. Bisu's still an S-class gamer, but failing in individual leagues gives you plenty of time to focus on PL. It's not like he had to worry about ODTs vs Jaedong or Flash, you know, like Jaedong and Flash.
Bisu may very well fail in tournaments because he's practicing too much for PL, like Flash did in times past. That's why Flash wasn't #1 on the PR and is a perfect reason why Bisu shouldn't be. Also, Flash never failed in qualifiers, for what's it's worth, and still wasn't #1, and it's not like he lost to people who played poorly, either. Typically to beat Flash, JD or Bisu you have to play well, that doesn't mean they still shouldn't win, be expected to win, and shouldn't be lessened for losing.
He is in MST because he lost 0-2 to Flash. It's God. Damn. Flash.
This sounds like a pretty good reason to not put him #1, when your excuse is "Well this guy who just won a title stopped him from doing well last MSL!"
On June 28 2011 22:50 ffreakk wrote: 2/ That "relatively short winning streak" you are talking about involves setting a new record for Most-wins achieved in a SPL season ever, nabbing the Most Win King title of the season in the process. >80% win-rate over the whole season.
I have a feeling this record will be broken next year if we keep the double WL format. It's a win sieve.
From looking at the discussion here, I can now see half of why people dislike the Kespa Ranking so much. Too much emphasis on individual leagues.
But seriously, should we consider the games in individual leagues and PL the same? How much weight does each game carry? Is a league title really worth 500 freaking points?
As I've said before, I carry a lot more weight on the individual leagues when I think about my own personal power rank. Bisu hasn't done ANYTHING in OSL or MSL since... Avalon MSL, the last time he had a seed a league. You may say Stork then Flash, but that's how the cards fell, and Taekshin didn't show up those days.
tl;dr Individual leagues matter a lot more than you think, Bisu.
On June 28 2011 15:52 Lachrymose wrote: It seems like "Doing well in PL" or equivalent is turning into some sort of buzz phrase that you can use to simplify Bisu's record down and dismiss it, without outright ignoring it but without giving any credit to what it actually is.
If he went 2-1 against Hyvaa instead of 1-2 he would be undeniably 1st place, yet let's drop him down to p4 (or 5, lol Jangbi) because of that or because the games had "OSL" in the title?
He has not lost to anybody playing badly or due to bad play. Hyvaa and Roro both played great Starcraft to beat Bisu. Pushing wins and losses aside his actual play is great. Hi Hiya.
His record is better than Flash, JD and Hydra this month whether you include OSL Prelims or not and unlike JD he actually has a good record in more than one MU.
Elo #1. Peaking in his 'bad' MU. One loss sitting on consecutive peaks in his good MU.
The best evidence he is powerful is that this is not a streak. WL 30-10 (75%). PL 34-5 (87%) (!!?) That is not doing well. Those are not the kind of numbers you can push aside and say "Eh, he does well in PL but can't qualify for OSL". To do so is such a shallow or disingenuous summary.
On the other hand, he is out of OSL and has to drag himself from MST. It's easy to be great at PL when you've had nothing else to do, this is the reason Flash was rarely if ever the #1 player for almost 2 years because he constantly failed in tournaments despite being clearly the best PL player. The difference is, Flash atleast qualified for the tournament before getting knocked out.
Jaedong then was more dominant than Jaedong now.
There was no Flash back then, although the Flash now wont join the PR for a while after this month, probably.
Flash wasnt as much a PL monster is Bisu is right now.
I agree with the guy above. Rather than looking at the record, we should also look at the quality of games. If he failed like Fanta did vs Mind, nvm putting him anywhere in top 3. But those 3 games were all well-played. Losing 1-2 to a Zerg that played brilliantly is something anyone would do. Wiping all other achievement in the light of "pff he lost a (few) games" without bothering to look into the actual game is either just being plain lazy or outright biased, imho.
Jaedong looked bad at the beginning of the month, Flash did at the end due to his lack of practice. Those contenders for no.1 place has some major glaring faults too, imho.
What are you even saying? There was no Flash back then, what? Do you seriously understand what you just said?
Flash won't join the PR this month when he's the shoe-in #1? Flash has won more titles this month than Bisu has in three years, and did so by 6-0ing his competition. Bisu could go undefeated in PL and it wouldn't make up for not showing up in either tournament. I don't care how good the games were, we all hold Bisu to a standard of being clearly and absolutely better than every single player in those prelims, in every one of his matchups. Hyvaa having a good day is a good excuse for dropping a PL game, not for dropping a best of 3 to even attempt to get into the tournament that gets you into the OSL. It's a disgrace for him, good games or not.
And I watched the games -- Hyvaa played a little cheesey and followed it up with good macro games. That's cool, great on him for playing well. Bisu should play better if he wants to be held in the same breath as Flash and Jaedong.
On June 28 2011 20:32 Lachrymose wrote: Ah okay, so it doesn't matter how well somebody is playing or how many games they win. All that matters is achievements.
The MSL finals and a golden badge are a great achievement, no doubt, however games are games. Zero, for instance, rolled over and died. Just because Flash won a golden badge for it doesn't mean it makes him look like the most powerful player on earth. I'm not saying it doesn't either, but when somebody like Luxury wins an MSL they don't make PR#1 because they're not that good.
Are you kidding me? Luxury shot straight up to #2 for winning the MSL, and the only reason he didn't get #1 is because Jaedong won the OSL. The same goes for Calm, the only reason he wasn't #1 was because Jaedong was the OSL champ.
You want another example? Guess a player who's only won 1 msl, and crushed his competition, and shot up to #1 on the PR for one month before never coming back? ForGG! The precedent applies as much as it doesn't, and we don't have a recent OSL Champ to knock Flash off his perch (because Fantasy is slumping about as hard as flash).
"It's just PL, who cares" If it were so easy why doesn't everybody dominate?And why do we weigh consistant play over the course of dozens of games against random opponents less than 1-3 games against prepared snipers? Is Starcraft somehow more 'pure' when you replace robust play with targetted play? I seem to remember when Flash failed in tournaments it was because he had to carry in PL. Bisu does great in PL and it is because he failed in tournaments. Flash only fails because of his success. Bisu only succeeds because of his failure. Seems fair.
They show up to play in individual leagues. Bisu's still an S-class gamer, but failing in individual leagues gives you plenty of time to focus on PL. It's not like he had to worry about ODTs vs Jaedong or Flash, you know, like Jaedong and Flash.
Bisu may very well fail in tournaments because he's practicing too much for PL, like Flash did in times past. That's why Flash wasn't #1 on the PR and is a perfect reason why Bisu shouldn't be. Also, Flash never failed in qualifiers, for what's it's worth, and still wasn't #1, and it's not like he lost to people who played poorly, either. Typically to beat Flash, JD or Bisu you have to play well, that doesn't mean they still shouldn't win, be expected to win, and shouldn't be lessened for losing.
He is in MST because he lost 0-2 to Flash. It's God. Damn. Flash.
This sounds like a pretty good reason to not put him #1, when your excuse is "Well this guy who just won a title stopped him from doing well last MSL!"
On June 28 2011 22:50 ffreakk wrote: 2/ That "relatively short winning streak" you are talking about involves setting a new record for Most-wins achieved in a SPL season ever, nabbing the Most Win King title of the season in the process. >80% win-rate over the whole season.
I have a feeling this record will be broken next year if we keep the double WL format. It's a win sieve.
Not much time, so i ll just reply quickly a few points.
1/ I said Flash would likely not join the PR after this month. Reason being that he ll take a break from the games to focus on his health. Take off your damn fanboy glass and read what people say for once.
2/ Bisu made the record by winning more games and losing less games than Flash did when he made the last one. So whether your prediction would come true or not, he did surpass Flash right there, as far as Proleague is concerned.
Great that there's a debate right now for no.2 (no one's seriously contesting no.1 I think). Let me chime in.
1. Flash
Kind of a no-brainer. MSL Gold in dominating fashion. PL results are highly questionable, but attributable to many things, not the least of which is his injury. KT dropped the ball when they still played him after clinching the playoffs.
2-3. Yellow and Jaedong/Bisu
As a tribute to the Storm Zerg and possibly the second most important person for the BW scene, Yellow should be given PR no.2 as props to an illustrious career (like when Sea was given no.1 for TL attack).
Jaedong/Bisu gets a bit tricky, and might depend upon the last few PL games. After a "severe" losing streak for his standards, JD promptly bounced back and is now on a winning streak which includes Flash. His momentum right now is probably the strongest, and since Flash is out for PL he'll be the most feared ace right now. Unfortunately he will have to suffer from that horrid 6-loss streak. The price is having a 50% chance of losing the no. 2 spot, no matter how much you rationalize on current momentum.
Bisu is performing like his usual monstrous self, only this time his individual league hiccup returned. I for one continue to have faith in his ability during SLs. He'll likely break through as soon as this MSL. Unfortunately speculation and hopes cannot carry you past 2 and a half years of miserable failure. I think Bisu's PL dominance is actually hurting his ranking, because it makes you realize what he's capable of and as a result expect him to achieve a measure of success in the individual league that some people have taken for granted. I think it's quite clear that qualifying for individual leagues is still the hardest accomplishment right now because of the competition participating therein. While this does not justify under performance, it does shed light on Bisu's repeated losses over weaker players. For perfection in PL and crashing and burning in SL, I think Bisu has a chance to move up over Zero and JD.
4. JangBi
I hesitate putting JangBi this high because, as with Bisu in the SLs or Stork in the finals, experience has told me my faith in him will be unrewarded. Nevertheless, JangBi, with the exception of Jaedong, is the player with the most momentum right now. Someone said it quite clearly - JangBi is not just winning with BOs or by his opponent's mistakes: He's playing solid Starcraft, with an increasing tendency to display brilliant Starcraft reminiscent of his play during his height (when "Almighty" wasn't just a nickname - it specifically described his level of play). 20-4 is nearly Flash-esque. I look forward to having a Protoss besides Stork to go deep in the OSL this time and give the Zerg and Terran contenders a run for their money. With Yellow retiring, could JangBi take the mantle not only of the Kong line, but also of the "Storm" name? I wait with bated breath.
5. Hydra
It's hard not to give props to a player that has achieved the best results this year. It's harder not to be a fan upon discovering he plays on effectively one eye. To my mind, effort is still the Zerg with the potential to take JD's throne. Still, it's hard to dispute Hydra's awakening. 1 loss to a non-Flash player in PL? Throw it down big fella, throw it down.
(addendum: with effort seemingly having Flash's number in the past and Hydra having JD's presently, will another CJ zerg arise to plague Bisu's title dreams?)
6. Zero
In deference to his silver achievement, and decent PL showing (unfortunately Stars isn't twinkling quite as brightly as before), Zero has to be placed before the other PL mini-bosses. It doesn't bode well for Zero's future that he didn't qualify for the OSL. His defense vs Canata was good though, and it saves him from the ignominy of losing to s2 a couple weeks after defeating JD himself, along with Calm.
7. Light
Light is doing well in his weakest matchup. Too bad he lost to Sang in the prelims. Still, it's always been his TvP that's held him back overall so it's nice that he's shoring that weakness up (much like FBH in ACE). Oh and he beat his arch-nemesis, Perfectman!
8. Hoejja
I really like this pick. Hoejja's stats are worse than the next two, but his play has been sublime. His win against Horang2 and Kal (and Stork last month) are both auto-recommended displays of superior ZvP. I choose him at 8 simply because I don't see anyone (save SoO) playing ZvP as beautifully as Hoejja is playing right now. But what the heck happened vs Lazy???
9. Movie
Great stats, not so great scalps. Here in recognition of the numbers.
10. SoO
I picked SoO to be my other up and coming Zerg (SK was the other) in the "potential" thread. His ZvP is phenomenal right now. While I don't like using stats, here are some of his scalps for the month of June:
Stats, Stork, Jangbi, Jaehoon. In 10 games against Protoss, he's lost 1 (and won the series anyway, qualifying for the OSL). He's also taken out Mind and Killer. Because of him, the SKT1 Zerg line is on a winning streak in PL. He'd be one of my nominees for most improved player post-winner's league.
CBNC at best. A 4 game winning streak (albeit against respectable opposition) doesn't mean much considering that he's been a horrible player for as long as anyone can remember. He also dropped a couple of games at the beginning of the month to mediocre players (Turn, Peace) and got knocked out of the OSL prelims in the first round that he played. If he can consistently perform at the same level as he did this month, he might take the #9 or #10 spot now and then, but right now history and reputation are not on his side.
EDIT Also, please no Yellow in the PR. If you want to do a tribute for Yellow, write an article or something. Just arbitrarily putting him on a list that he absolutely does not belong in isn't doing any honors to his achievements and contributions.
On June 29 2011 00:49 DarkMatter_ wrote: CBNC at best. A 4 game winning streak (albeit against respectable opposition) doesn't mean much considering that he's been a horrible player for as long as anyone can remember. He also dropped a couple of games at the beginning of the month to mediocre players (Turn, Peace) and got knocked out of the OSL prelims in the first round that he played. If he can consistently perform at the same level as he did this month, he might take the #9 or #10 spot now and then, but right now history and reputation are not on his side.
EDIT Also, please no Yellow in the PR. If you want to do a tribute for Yellow, write an article or something. Just arbitrarily putting him on a list that he absolutely does not belong in isn't doing any honors to his achievements and contributions.
Again, it's not the number but how he won the games.
And re: Yellow in PR... I feel as if people take PR as some sacred list that you can't have fun with.
On June 28 2011 15:52 Lachrymose wrote: It seems like "Doing well in PL" or equivalent is turning into some sort of buzz phrase that you can use to simplify Bisu's record down and dismiss it, without outright ignoring it but without giving any credit to what it actually is.
If he went 2-1 against Hyvaa instead of 1-2 he would be undeniably 1st place, yet let's drop him down to p4 (or 5, lol Jangbi) because of that or because the games had "OSL" in the title?
He has not lost to anybody playing badly or due to bad play. Hyvaa and Roro both played great Starcraft to beat Bisu. Pushing wins and losses aside his actual play is great. Hi Hiya.
His record is better than Flash, JD and Hydra this month whether you include OSL Prelims or not and unlike JD he actually has a good record in more than one MU.
Elo #1. Peaking in his 'bad' MU. One loss sitting on consecutive peaks in his good MU.
The best evidence he is powerful is that this is not a streak. WL 30-10 (75%). PL 34-5 (87%) (!!?) That is not doing well. Those are not the kind of numbers you can push aside and say "Eh, he does well in PL but can't qualify for OSL". To do so is such a shallow or disingenuous summary.
On the other hand, he is out of OSL and has to drag himself from MST. It's easy to be great at PL when you've had nothing else to do, this is the reason Flash was rarely if ever the #1 player for almost 2 years because he constantly failed in tournaments despite being clearly the best PL player. The difference is, Flash atleast qualified for the tournament before getting knocked out.
Jaedong then was more dominant than Jaedong now.
There was no Flash back then, although the Flash now wont join the PR for a while after this month, probably.
Flash wasnt as much a PL monster is Bisu is right now.
I agree with the guy above. Rather than looking at the record, we should also look at the quality of games. If he failed like Fanta did vs Mind, nvm putting him anywhere in top 3. But those 3 games were all well-played. Losing 1-2 to a Zerg that played brilliantly is something anyone would do. Wiping all other achievement in the light of "pff he lost a (few) games" without bothering to look into the actual game is either just being plain lazy or outright biased, imho.
Jaedong looked bad at the beginning of the month, Flash did at the end due to his lack of practice. Those contenders for no.1 place has some major glaring faults too, imho.
What are you even saying? There was no Flash back then, what? Do you seriously understand what you just said?
Flash won't join the PR this month when he's the shoe-in #1? Flash has won more titles this month than Bisu has in three years, and did so by 6-0ing his competition. Bisu could go undefeated in PL and it wouldn't make up for not showing up in either tournament. I don't care how good the games were, we all hold Bisu to a standard of being clearly and absolutely better than every single player in those prelims, in every one of his matchups. Hyvaa having a good day is a good excuse for dropping a PL game, not for dropping a best of 3 to even attempt to get into the tournament that gets you into the OSL. It's a disgrace for him, good games or not.
And I watched the games -- Hyvaa played a little cheesey and followed it up with good macro games. That's cool, great on him for playing well. Bisu should play better if he wants to be held in the same breath as Flash and Jaedong.
On June 28 2011 20:32 Lachrymose wrote: Ah okay, so it doesn't matter how well somebody is playing or how many games they win. All that matters is achievements.
The MSL finals and a golden badge are a great achievement, no doubt, however games are games. Zero, for instance, rolled over and died. Just because Flash won a golden badge for it doesn't mean it makes him look like the most powerful player on earth. I'm not saying it doesn't either, but when somebody like Luxury wins an MSL they don't make PR#1 because they're not that good.
Are you kidding me? Luxury shot straight up to #2 for winning the MSL, and the only reason he didn't get #1 is because Jaedong won the OSL. The same goes for Calm, the only reason he wasn't #1 was because Jaedong was the OSL champ.
You want another example? Guess a player who's only won 1 msl, and crushed his competition, and shot up to #1 on the PR for one month before never coming back? ForGG! The precedent applies as much as it doesn't, and we don't have a recent OSL Champ to knock Flash off his perch (because Fantasy is slumping about as hard as flash).
"It's just PL, who cares" If it were so easy why doesn't everybody dominate?And why do we weigh consistant play over the course of dozens of games against random opponents less than 1-3 games against prepared snipers? Is Starcraft somehow more 'pure' when you replace robust play with targetted play? I seem to remember when Flash failed in tournaments it was because he had to carry in PL. Bisu does great in PL and it is because he failed in tournaments. Flash only fails because of his success. Bisu only succeeds because of his failure. Seems fair.
They show up to play in individual leagues. Bisu's still an S-class gamer, but failing in individual leagues gives you plenty of time to focus on PL. It's not like he had to worry about ODTs vs Jaedong or Flash, you know, like Jaedong and Flash.
Bisu may very well fail in tournaments because he's practicing too much for PL, like Flash did in times past. That's why Flash wasn't #1 on the PR and is a perfect reason why Bisu shouldn't be. Also, Flash never failed in qualifiers, for what's it's worth, and still wasn't #1, and it's not like he lost to people who played poorly, either. Typically to beat Flash, JD or Bisu you have to play well, that doesn't mean they still shouldn't win, be expected to win, and shouldn't be lessened for losing.
He is in MST because he lost 0-2 to Flash. It's God. Damn. Flash.
This sounds like a pretty good reason to not put him #1, when your excuse is "Well this guy who just won a title stopped him from doing well last MSL!"
On June 28 2011 22:50 ffreakk wrote: 2/ That "relatively short winning streak" you are talking about involves setting a new record for Most-wins achieved in a SPL season ever, nabbing the Most Win King title of the season in the process. >80% win-rate over the whole season.
I have a feeling this record will be broken next year if we keep the double WL format. It's a win sieve.
Not much time, so i ll just reply quickly a few points.
1/ I said Flash would likely not join the PR after this month. Reason being that he ll take a break from the games to focus on his health. Take off your damn fanboy glass and read what people say for once.
2/ Bisu made the record by winning more games and losing less games than Flash did when he made the last one. So whether your prediction would come true or not, he did surpass Flash right there, as far as Proleague is concerned.
I apologize, I did misread the bit about Flash not being on because of him sitting out games. Entirely my fault because it didn't seem so clear and, well, kneejerk. I still don't get why you said Flash wasn't around back then, when I was talking about 3 years ago.
And yes, Bisu has had an absolutely dominant PL run. But I'm pretty much sure every Bisu fan and Bisu himself would trade those, what, 5 wins? For even one title, and he dropped the shot with his prelims loss. That's how important titles are.
Hoejja should be on CBNC. He shouldn't take a legit spot from someone who's been similarly as good in PL and is still in OSL, or someone who's just plain way better in PL.
The thing you have to realize about Bisu, the thing that MUST be acknowledged when we talk about HOTNESS is that what really matters at the end of the day is RESULTS. I'm not saying 5 games played over the course of a month matter, and anyone who thinks that a few meager wins played in a single month should be all that defines PR misses the point about professional gaming and about ranking.
The ONLY reason Bisu is top 5 on PR is team league results. In team league he is clearly #1 right now. But Bisu has no tournament results.
Flash is the #2 in team league and other than this month the only thing separating him from Bisu was number of games played (Flash actually had a higher win % -- and in his role of "Final Boss" was surpassing anyone: his win streak as the final obstacle was something like 30 games). This month he secured the golden badge. Although Flash has had weak PL results this month, the reality is that Flash has played much more difficult opponents and all of them have played really well. So if we're going to talk about hyvaa stepping up his game (which I am all for), fairness dictates we do so for Flash as well.
Jaedong... I was originally thinking about putting Bisu ahead, but JD has really stepped it up lately. The thing that puts JD over Bisu is results. JD is #3 in team league and has 2 semifinal results so far this year. Bisu on his A game seems unable to even make it to the single elimination stage of SL; JD in a slump is consistently making semifinals. If JD's end of May crash had continued all month I would have put Bisu ahead, but right now JD is looking pretty scary and very much able to do something about it. Also, do not forget that JD's results towards the end of June are the reason OZ is back in playoff contention.
Hydra: if I am going to talk about tourney results of JD and Flash I have to put up Hydra. So far in 2011 nobody has a better overall tourney record. And in team league Hydra is #5 behind Flash, JD, Bisu and Sea. On top of that? Even barring MSL results Hydra has had a better month than Bisu, blasting his way out of his ODT group. Like JD I originally put Bisu ahead of Hydra, but unless Hydra seriously fucks up something between now and Friday I don't see him dropping out of the top 3.
Finally, Zero: I am in favor of putting Bisu over Zero, but again, Zero has better tourney results and is competent in team league, although his record trails a bit behind the others I mentioned. However, take a peak at Zero's results against TBLS so far this year: even counting the 3-0 loss to Flash he is waaaay ahead. And Zero's drop in the prelims was similar to Bisu's. The more I think about it the more I'm tempted to say Zero should be #5.
I DON'T see Jangbi overtaking Bisu. A YEAR of failure followed by one good -- but NOT great (Jangbi's has taken a few decent players, but he's mostly played scrubs who I would EXPECT a PR player to rape; it's not like Jangbi is in the finals of OSL) -- month is not enough to surpass someone who has been winning over 75% of his games for more than 8 months.
Edit: by the way: winning 75% in PL, as great as it is, is not the same as winning 75% in SL. Not even close to being the same. Just do the math to see why: in standard OSL format (group stage -> bo3 -> bo5 -> bo5) it's mathematically impossible to win 75% without at least making the finals. And in each round you face progressively harder opposition, meaning that you are more likely to lose games. Your typical Ro16 opponent is harder on average than your typical PL opponent and it gets worse from there.
On June 29 2011 02:53 Mortality wrote: I DON'T see Jangbi overtaking Bisu. A YEAR of failure followed by one good -- but NOT great (Jangbi's has taken a few decent players, but he's mostly played scrubs who I would EXPECT a PR player to rape; it's not like Jangbi is in the finals of OSL) -- month is not enough to surpass someone who has been winning over 75% of his games for more than 8 months.
We'll see about who is better between JangBi and Bisu in the OSL final! Oh wai-
Hydra is securing CJ the second spot, 2-0d his OSL group, has beaten Flash in PL, playing with one eye, there was nothing he could do better, his games were solid and good. I would put him 2/3.
SKT-Soo deserves a spot between 6-8. Everything else is not fair.
On June 29 2011 00:44 Caladbolg wrote: Great that there's a debate right now for no.2 (no one's seriously contesting no.1 I think). Let me chime in.
1. Flash
Kind of a no-brainer. MSL Gold in dominating fashion. PL results are highly questionable, but attributable to many things, not the least of which is his injury. KT dropped the ball when they still played him after clinching the playoffs.
2-3. Yellow and Jaedong/Bisu
As a tribute to the Storm Zerg and possibly the second most important person for the BW scene, Yellow should be given PR no.2 as props to an illustrious career (like when Sea was given no.1 for TL attack).
Jaedong/Bisu gets a bit tricky, and might depend upon the last few PL games. After a "severe" losing streak for his standards, JD promptly bounced back and is now on a winning streak which includes Flash. His momentum right now is probably the strongest, and since Flash is out for PL he'll be the most feared ace right now. Unfortunately he will have to suffer from that horrid 6-loss streak. The price is having a 50% chance of losing the no. 2 spot, no matter how much you rationalize on current momentum.
Bisu is performing like his usual monstrous self, only this time his individual league hiccup returned. I for one continue to have faith in his ability during SLs. He'll likely break through as soon as this MSL. Unfortunately speculation and hopes cannot carry you past 2 and a half years of miserable failure. I think Bisu's PL dominance is actually hurting his ranking, because it makes you realize what he's capable of and as a result expect him to achieve a measure of success in the individual league that some people have taken for granted. I think it's quite clear that qualifying for individual leagues is still the hardest accomplishment right now because of the competition participating therein. While this does not justify under performance, it does shed light on Bisu's repeated losses over weaker players. For perfection in PL and crashing and burning in SL, I think Bisu has a chance to move up over Zero and JD.
4. JangBi
I hesitate putting JangBi this high because, as with Bisu in the SLs or Stork in the finals, experience has told me my faith in him will be unrewarded. Nevertheless, JangBi, with the exception of Jaedong, is the player with the most momentum right now. Someone said it quite clearly - JangBi is not just winning with BOs or by his opponent's mistakes: He's playing solid Starcraft, with an increasing tendency to display brilliant Starcraft reminiscent of his play during his height (when "Almighty" wasn't just a nickname - it specifically described his level of play). 20-4 is nearly Flash-esque. I look forward to having a Protoss besides Stork to go deep in the OSL this time and give the Zerg and Terran contenders a run for their money. With Yellow retiring, could JangBi take the mantle not only of the Kong line, but also of the "Storm" name? I wait with bated breath.
5. Hydra
It's hard not to give props to a player that has achieved the best results this year. It's harder not to be a fan upon discovering he plays on effectively one eye. To my mind, effort is still the Zerg with the potential to take JD's throne. Still, it's hard to dispute Hydra's awakening. 1 loss to a non-Flash player in PL? Throw it down big fella, throw it down.
(addendum: with effort seemingly having Flash's number in the past and Hydra having JD's presently, will another CJ zerg arise to plague Bisu's title dreams?)
6. Zero
In deference to his silver achievement, and decent PL showing (unfortunately Stars isn't twinkling quite as brightly as before), Zero has to be placed before the other PL mini-bosses. It doesn't bode well for Zero's future that he didn't qualify for the OSL. His defense vs Canata was good though, and it saves him from the ignominy of losing to s2 a couple weeks after defeating JD himself, along with Calm.
7. Light
Light is doing well in his weakest matchup. Too bad he lost to Sang in the prelims. Still, it's always been his TvP that's held him back overall so it's nice that he's shoring that weakness up (much like FBH in ACE). Oh and he beat his arch-nemesis, Perfectman!
8. Hoejja
I really like this pick. Hoejja's stats are worse than the next two, but his play has been sublime. His win against Horang2 and Kal (and Stork last month) are both auto-recommended displays of superior ZvP. I choose him at 8 simply because I don't see anyone (save SoO) playing ZvP as beautifully as Hoejja is playing right now. But what the heck happened vs Lazy???
9. Movie
Great stats, not so great scalps. Here in recognition of the numbers.
10. SoO
I picked SoO to be my other up and coming Zerg (SK was the other) in the "potential" thread. His ZvP is phenomenal right now. While I don't like using stats, here are some of his scalps for the month of June:
Stats, Stork, Jangbi, Jaehoon. In 10 games against Protoss, he's lost 1 (and won the series anyway, qualifying for the OSL). He's also taken out Mind and Killer. Because of him, the SKT1 Zerg line is on a winning streak in PL. He'd be one of my nominees for most improved player post-winner's league.
I don't get it. Why no FBH in any of the predictions??? Show some ♥ ppl!
On June 29 2011 02:53 Mortality wrote: I DON'T see Jangbi overtaking Bisu. A YEAR of failure followed by one good -- but NOT great (Jangbi's has taken a few decent players, but he's mostly played scrubs who I would EXPECT a PR player to rape; it's not like Jangbi is in the finals of OSL) -- month is not enough to surpass someone who has been winning over 75% of his games for more than 8 months.
We'll see about who is better between JangBi and Bisu in the OSL final! Oh wai-
Ro16 is nowhere close to final. If jangbi were in the final that would be different. But making Ro16... how many players do that each season? 16. What? 16. What? I SAID SIXTEEN. It's premature to consider Jangbi to be above Bisu.
On June 29 2011 02:53 Mortality wrote: I DON'T see Jangbi overtaking Bisu. A YEAR of failure followed by one good -- but NOT great (Jangbi's has taken a few decent players, but he's mostly played scrubs who I would EXPECT a PR player to rape; it's not like Jangbi is in the finals of OSL) -- month is not enough to surpass someone who has been winning over 75% of his games for more than 8 months.
We'll see about who is better between JangBi and Bisu in the OSL final! Oh wai-
Ro16 is nowhere close to final. If jangbi were in the final that would be different. But making Ro16... how many players do that each season? 16. What? 16. What? I SAID SIXTEEN. It's premature to consider Jangbi to be above Bisu.
Think its funny how jaedong's worse losing streak is 5 games which was this month and he broke out of that and is now on an 8 game winning streak. So nice to see him winning alot after that "slump' :D.
On June 29 2011 02:53 Mortality wrote: Edit: by the way: winning 75% in PL, as great as it is, is not the same as winning 75% in SL. Not even close to being the same. Just do the math to see why: in standard OSL format (group stage -> bo3 -> bo5 -> bo5) it's mathematically impossible to win 75% without at least making the finals. And in each round you face progressively harder opposition, meaning that you are more likely to lose games. Your typical Ro16 opponent is harder on average than your typical PL opponent and it gets worse from there.
To be fair in regular PL he is sitting at 87% with 34-5, that is absolutely insane even if hes played a lot of rather mediocre players. While WL has given him lots of wins it has also decreased his winrate since its obviously way harder beating several people in a row having to face both snipers and the opposing teams best players and there he is still 75% (with the playoffs). Obviously the opponents are gonna be stronger in general in SLs tho.
On June 29 2011 02:53 Mortality wrote: I DON'T see Jangbi overtaking Bisu. A YEAR of failure followed by one good -- but NOT great (Jangbi's has taken a few decent players, but he's mostly played scrubs who I would EXPECT a PR player to rape; it's not like Jangbi is in the finals of OSL) -- month is not enough to surpass someone who has been winning over 75% of his games for more than 8 months.
I agree with you that Jangbi shouldn't be ahead of Bisu. This being a huge Jangbi fan who has watched him since 2008. But why do you expect a PR player to rape mediocre competition? Other than Jaedong and Flash, which player has consistently done this while playing in a SL at the same time? And usually players who had done this in spurts, like hydra, effort, Calm/not-Clam, they weren't just on the PR, but VERY HIGH on the PR.
Other than your usual suspects, it's actually rare to see consistent stomp of average competition for a player who also make a run in the SLs.
Edit: by the way: winning 75% in PL, as great as it is, is not the same as winning 75% in SL. Not even close to being the same. Just do the math to see why: in standard OSL format (group stage -> bo3 -> bo5 -> bo5) it's mathematically impossible to win 75% without at least making the finals. And in each round you face progressively harder opposition, meaning that you are more likely to lose games. Your typical Ro16 opponent is harder on average than your typical PL opponent and it gets worse from there.
If this was Leta, Sea, Light, or even Flash circa 2009, I doubt anyone would make such a big deal out of just PL.
But it's Bisu. The only competition that matters is the one he's good. If he sucked in the PL and pwning the MSL, he'd be on top because he's pwning the MSL. If he's sucking in the SL and pwning the PL, then he'd be on top because he's pwning the PL. Oh, and of course the OSL is a non-existent entity because I don't see Bisu in it.
On June 28 2011 15:52 Lachrymose wrote: It seems like "Doing well in PL" or equivalent is turning into some sort of buzz phrase that you can use to simplify Bisu's record down and dismiss it, without outright ignoring it but without giving any credit to what it actually is.
If he went 2-1 against Hyvaa instead of 1-2 he would be undeniably 1st place, yet let's drop him down to p4 (or 5, lol Jangbi) because of that or because the games had "OSL" in the title?
He has not lost to anybody playing badly or due to bad play. Hyvaa and Roro both played great Starcraft to beat Bisu. Pushing wins and losses aside his actual play is great. Hi Hiya.
His record is better than Flash, JD and Hydra this month whether you include OSL Prelims or not and unlike JD he actually has a good record in more than one MU.
Elo #1. Peaking in his 'bad' MU. One loss sitting on consecutive peaks in his good MU.
The best evidence he is powerful is that this is not a streak. WL 30-10 (75%). PL 34-5 (87%) (!!?) That is not doing well. Those are not the kind of numbers you can push aside and say "Eh, he does well in PL but can't qualify for OSL". To do so is such a shallow or disingenuous summary.
Bisu didn't even make it to the finals of his group. This is powerful: Flash hasn't lost a BOX in over a year. Bisu hasn't even made a RO16 in nearly a year.
On June 29 2011 02:53 Mortality wrote: I DON'T see Jangbi overtaking Bisu. A YEAR of failure followed by one good -- but NOT great (Jangbi's has taken a few decent players, but he's mostly played scrubs who I would EXPECT a PR player to rape; it's not like Jangbi is in the finals of OSL) -- month is not enough to surpass someone who has been winning over 75% of his games for more than 8 months.
I agree with you that Jangbi shouldn't be ahead of Bisu. This being a huge Jangbi fan who has watched him since 2008. But why do you expect a PR player to rape mediocre competition? Other than Jaedong and Flash, which player has consistently done this while playing in a SL at the same time? And usually players who had done this in spurts, like hydra, effort, Calm/not-Clam, they weren't just on the PR, but VERY HIGH on the PR.
Other than your usual suspects, it's actually rare to see consistent stomp of average competition for a player who also make a run in the SLs.
??
I don't know why we're talking about SL since I'm talking about my expectations of a player on the PR, and Jangbi has not played a single SL match since July of 2010 so I'm afraid I miss how SL is relevant to my argument.
I expect better players to win over worse players and PR players are the top 10 hottest in progaming.
On June 29 2011 06:09 swanized wrote: meanwhile, when some of you guys are thinking of dropping Soulkey from the PR and classing SOO as having more potential
I don't think there's any argument that soO's somehow become a better player than Soulkey, overall.
But over the last month or so? They've definitely been very close, and soO's got the OSL thing going for him, for now.
On the other hand, Soulkey's coming off a #4 PR month, so while soO's at least close to earning his way on, I don't see him higher than 7-9 because he's never been good in anything but streaks. Soulkey will likely drop to 6-ish but right now anything further depends on the rest of the month.
The last few PL matches are essentially meaningless (except for STX, FOX, and OZ, naturally), so I'm thinking the MSL prelim is going to be a "tiebreaker" for a lot of the close decisions. For example, Jangbi's on a nice run at the moment, complete with OSL, but if he somehow fails out in prelims, Horang2 and Bisu are already seeded into at least the MST (I don't remember exactly), so the "Starleague qualification, look!" argument gets a lot weaker.
I really hope that this break in pl will allow bisu to own face in the potentially upcoming sl. SKT should like ban him from proleague until bisu makes ro8 or something
On June 29 2011 06:09 swanized wrote: meanwhile, when some of you guys are thinking of dropping Soulkey from the PR and classing SOO as having more potential
I havent gone "wow Soo is that good" the same way I had with soulkey, I havent watched many games with him but those I watched were descently good, nothing "wow" though.
Another thing is that most of his wins has been vs protoss, while Soulkey has lost vs 2 protoss it seems like it is to Suns and M18M's credit rather than Soulkeys discredit. Soo also has won vs 2 terrans this month, and both mind and Iris played sloppily those games so I wouldnt put that to his benefit.
Soo is probably going to land in the range of 9-10. He's been giving results for the past couple of months, but mainly all in the same match: ZvP. We have no real proof of ability in ZvT or ZvZ. ELO says everything that anybody knows about Soo: 2018 ZvT, 1992 ZvZ, 2134 ZvP (#8 vP, #4 ZvP).
Soulkey will at best be on CBNC. Actually, taking a second look at Soulkey, ZvP is a serious weak point. The only competent PvZer he beat all year so far was Stats... in May when Stats was already on his current 7 game loss streak. His ZvP record seems inflated since he's played: M18M 4 times, Shy, By.Sun 2 times, Jangbi back in February, and Reach. I wouldn't be surprised to see Soulkey drop off the rank. In retrospect he may have been ranked too high. Rank 6 or 7 may have been more appropriate.
But ZERO!! hsa been under ranked by just about everybody this month.
I think Hoejja CBNC is fine. #10 at most and I say that as a huge KT fan and as someone who remembers Hoejja's series vs Much in GOM (first time he got any real attention at all). I love Hoejja and he's definitely better than his results show, but let's not jump the gun
EDIT: 2-0'ing Shuttle into the MST is a big argument for #10 though. His play has been strong.
30th of June, no more games left in the month, PR:
1. Flash. It's been a rough month for... who am I kidding? KT made the playoffs weeks ago, Flash won the Golden Badge, tied NaDa - a few bad PL weeks and a couple losses to Jaedong that don't matter don't mean anything. Now fix that wrist!
2. YellOw. For any other player, an honorary #2 on retirement would be just a cruel joke. For YellOw - we'll miss you, but Flash tying NaDa is bigger news than your retirement. You picked a bad month to retire, otherwise we might give you #1 for all those years of dedication.
3. Jaedong. That 5-game (thanks Mumei) slide was a little ugly, but the Dong snapped right back to form with an 8-game winstreak and a 2-0 record against Flash.
4. Bisu. If Bisu had played anybody good this month other than Action, he might be #3 over Jaedong, but given that he didn't, that ODT prelim loss to hyvaa (who got beat by Anyppi in the MST prelims) is massively damaging. Also the fact that he lost to RorO is bad - Bisu is only 3-3 in PvZ this month, which is unheard of.
5. ZerO. Lest we forget, Flash took his Golden Badge off this guy, who had just beaten Jaedong. And yeah, he got demolished in the Final. And yeah, he goofed up in ODT prelims too (although at least he had the grace to lose in his worst matchup instead of his best, and got close enough to make the wildcard even if he lost there). But finally, ZerO's got to get a lot of credit for Woongjin managing to not utterly fail: 6-1 over the month with two ace wins counts for a lot.
6. JangBi. Since the beginning of May there hasn't been a hotter player in progaming. We're talking 24-3 over those two months, dual league qualifications, won his ODT group 2-0, 6-0 in Proleague as KHAN made its mad scramble (or blind luck fail-success) into playoff position.
7. Hydra. Hydra lost to Flash, which apparently everybody does in series play these days. Since then - 6-1 in Proleague, 2-0 and progression in ODT. I was tempted to drop him, because seriously who loses to Juni? - but in the end there's a dearth of players with better credentials.
8. Bogus. As the rest of STX falls apart, Bogus has stepped up and won in the clutch. 6-2 in Proleague on the month (and the losses are BeSt and Neo.G_Soulkey), he made both leagues - and got the short end of the draw with a Flash-Jaedong group he was never going to win.
9. n.Die_soO. In the "things that make no sense" category: an SKT Zerg is undefeated in Proleague at 6-0 in the month, qualified for both leagues, and then advanced through the ODT. Wait, what?
10. HoeJJa. Sure, a 4-2 Proleague record isn't really anything special. But with Flash out for the regular season, at least somebody stepped up and said, "Wait a minute guys, I can win!" With an MST qualification added to his resume, let's go with #10 for this guy.
CBNC/Other potential low ranks: Movie (6-1 PL, MST), Mind (5-2 PL, ODT (1-2 loss in tough group), MSL seed), RorO (4-2 PL, beat Bisu, ODT prelim win over Movie, MST seed).
On July 01 2011 00:43 VGhost wrote:3. Jaedong. That 6-game slide was a little ugly, but the Dong snapped right back to form with an 8-game winstreak and a 2-0 record against Flash.
personally i can wait until after groups e/f of the osl qualifier, seems like a sensible cutof. probably won't affect much though, could solidify roro into a cbnc or low rank if he smashes his group but that's about it
7. Hydra. Hydra lost to Flash, which apparently everybody does in series play these days. Since then - 6-1 in Proleague, 2-0 and progression in ODT. I was tempted to drop him, because seriously who loses to Juni?
On July 01 2011 03:00 Mortality wrote: No way should Hydra be #7.
Too high? Too low? I can't see him higher than #5 (behind Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, ZerO). Probably could be ahead of Jangbi based on resume at this point, but I also think Jangbi's been much more dominant this month. Plus my including YellOw throws the rank off by a place - if you don't like that just move everybody up one.
Why can't he be higher than Jaedong, Bisu, and ZerO? He has a near perfect PL record, and advanced through the prelims and ODT (no Bisu or ZerO) with multiple wins over Terrans and Zergs. Only one win over Protoss this month, but I don't think we have any reason to doubt his ability in that matchup.
I can see why Jaedong may be higher, but not the others. Unless you utterly ignore the OSL, Hydra must be either #2 or #3, imo. I believe he should be ahead of JD because JD had that mini-slump earlier in the month, but I can accept Hydra #3. I just can't accept Bisu and ZerO, who are currently two rounds behind Hydra in the OSL, being higher (remember that Hydra was only one round behind ZerO in the MSL).
Jangbi has been dominating prelims. Prelims are just prelims. How many people each season are qualified for both ODT (or higher) and MST (or higher)? It's very, very common. Between ODT and OSL you have 28. Between MST and MSL you have 48.
Jangbi is looking really good right now, but are you serious when you say someone whose best tournament result in 2-3 years is a Ro16 appearance and has a 17-24 overall PL record is "hotter" than someone who won MSL, made semifinals the next season, also made it out of ODT, was Ro16 OSL last season, and has the 5th best PL record?
What?
What? What? What? What? What?
By the way you are acting, I would think that every single one of Jangbi's wins was over a PR caliber player. It looks to me like he went 2-2 against guys who will be on the PR (1-0 over Zero and Horang2, 0-2 to Soo). A few other decent wins, sure, but if he's not going to have any accomplishments of note under his belt -- and believe me, a year from now nobody is going to remember who won the OGN offline preliminary wildcard -- then I want to see him whip up some S-class threats, repeatedly.
And also, I love Zero, but right now Hydra is a shoe-in for a higher spot. I don't understand the inconsistency in your ranking. You put an absurd emphasis on prelims for Jangbi's sake, but then you're giving Zero the nod over Hydra when Zero failed in the prelims and Hydra is in the OSL? And it's true that Zero was a finalist when Hydra wasn't, but Zero got 3-0'd by Flash just the same as Hydra did. Had the bracket been arranged differently, are you that confident that Jaedong would have beaten Hydra?
And oh, fine, he lost to Juni. Everyone will drop a game to a weaker player from time to time. Juni has also beaten Flash (at the time when Flash got 2nd place to Jaedong in GOM Classic), Effort (shortly after his OSL win), and also Bisu (admittedly during his slump). Not to mention that he knocked Soulkey out of the prelims this season.
The thing is, Starcraft is about the law of averages. Juni sucks not because he "can't beat" a good player but because he normally loses to everybody except Ace team members. I think, given Hydra's other recent results, we can safely rule that loss an anomaly.
On the case of Jangbi (which happens to be my second favorite player behind Jaedong), these monster streaks kind of happen once in a while to some random a-team player, it's statistically not even unlikely. In Jangbi's case we just know that he once had the skills to back it up, so we can give him a little more credit than others. His record looks totally ridiculous on first sight (21-2 or sth. like that, don't know for sure), but as soon as you see that this i.e. includes wins against Tossgirl, you know it's just highly inflated.
In those cases, I believe #1-#3 should be holy ground, you shouldn't occupy such a rank based on a lucky run if you are not a top3 player. #4 or #5 maybe possible if others don't perform up to their standards, but with Hydra and Zer0 (he still is a MSL finalist) in the mix, the top5 should not be in reach for him, that needs at least another very solid month. I believe #6 is the highest we should go here.
On July 01 2011 04:11 Mortality wrote: Jangbi has been dominating prelims. Prelims are just prelims. How many people each season are qualified for both ODT (or higher) and MST (or higher)? It's very, very common. Between ODT and OSL you have 28. Between MST and MSL you have 48.
Jangbi is looking really good right now, but are you serious when you say someone whose best tournament result in 2-3 years is a Ro16 appearance and has a 17-24 overall PL record is "hotter" than someone who won MSL, made semifinals the next season, also made it out of ODT, was Ro16 OSL last season, and has the 5th best PL record?
What?
What? What? What? What? What?
By the way you are acting, I would think that every single one of Jangbi's wins was over a PR caliber player. It looks to me like he went 2-2 against guys who will be on the PR (1-0 over Zero and Horang2, 0-2 to Soo). A few other decent wins, sure, but if he's not going to have any accomplishments of note under his belt -- and believe me, a year from now nobody is going to remember who won the OGN offline preliminary wildcard -- then I want to see him whip up some S-class threats, repeatedly.
I admit that Jangbi's a bit of an anomaly in my ranking. Most of that's from the way he absolutely dominated Horang2 and Shuttle, and a little bit of it's pure fanboyism. So let's say we drop him down a couple spots.
On July 01 2011 04:11 Mortality wrote: And also, I love Zero, but right now Hydra is a shoe-in for a higher spot. I don't understand the inconsistency in your ranking. You put an absurd emphasis on prelims for Jangbi's sake, but then you're giving Zero the nod over Hydra when Zero failed in the prelims and Hydra is in the OSL? And it's true that Zero was a finalist when Hydra wasn't, but Zero got 3-0'd by Flash just the same as Hydra did. Had the bracket been arranged differently, are you that confident that Jaedong would have beaten Hydra?
As I mentioned above, my love for Jangbi isn't really based on the prelims, while ZerO goofing up is something that needs at least an excuse...
At the same time, I think ZerO is actually better than Hydra; I think he played better against Flash than Hydra did (even if the result was the some); and he's been more important to his team over this last month than Hydra. Also I'm a Stars fan. I guess there's an argument to be made the other way, though.
(And yes, I think JD would have beaten Hydra.)
EDIT: Jangbi's record: without counting prelims, Jangbi is 11-1 since May, 8-0 in June with a 6-0 in Proleague play. May: W Sea, Stats, Sacsri L Hydra. June: W Last Crazy-Hydra Hyuk Horang2 HyuN Wooki. (Prelims: all wins except vs soO, qualified for both leagues.) ODT (June): wins over s2, Shuttle.
Okay, it's not the best opponents ever, but still.
Am I the only who would put JD at 1 and flash at 3-4 since he havent played at all in kt's 2 last PL games and is 0-5 in recent proleague? Taking care of the wrist and MSL curse is all good and taking into consideration but putting him at 1st seems... weird considering he hasn't anything else going for him than "fear" and won starleague cus his last 2 weeks has been pretty bad to be honest.
i just dont feel like he is up there, you might disagree but thats how i feel at this moment...
On July 01 2011 05:15 Iplaythings wrote: Am I the only who would put JD at 1 and flash at 3-4 since he havent played at all in kt's 2 last PL games and is 0-5 in recent proleague? Taking care of the wrist and MSL curse is all good and taking into consideration but putting him at 1st seems... weird considering he hasn't anything else going for him than "fear" and won starleague cus his last 2 weeks has been pretty bad to be honest.
i just dont feel like he is up there, you might disagree but thats how i feel at this moment...
You have a point but tying NaDa with a whopping 6-0 in MSL Semis and Finals alone warrants #1 imho. Furthermore JD went on the biggest losing streak of his career at the beginning of this month which isn't exactly something to be proud of either....
Another thing to consider is the ever popular "Bo5 for your life" argument - even with his current wrist condition Flash, not knowing the opponent, would still be the favorite pick for almost everyone I guess.
On July 01 2011 05:15 Iplaythings wrote: Am I the only who would put JD at 1 and flash at 3-4 since he havent played at all in kt's 2 last PL games and is 0-5 in recent proleague? Taking care of the wrist and MSL curse is all good and taking into consideration but putting him at 1st seems... weird considering he hasn't anything else going for him than "fear" and won starleague cus his last 2 weeks has been pretty bad to be honest.
i just dont feel like he is up there, you might disagree but thats how i feel at this moment...
You have a point but tying NaDa with a whopping 6-0 in MSL Semis and Finals alone warrants #1 imho.
But this isn't IFFHS for starcraft, the Power Rank is about who's playing the best now you know.
On July 01 2011 05:15 Iplaythings wrote: Am I the only who would put JD at 1 and flash at 3-4 since he havent played at all in kt's 2 last PL games and is 0-5 in recent proleague? Taking care of the wrist and MSL curse is all good and taking into consideration but putting him at 1st seems... weird considering he hasn't anything else going for him than "fear" and won starleague cus his last 2 weeks has been pretty bad to be honest.
i just dont feel like he is up there, you might disagree but thats how i feel at this moment...
You have a point but tying NaDa with a whopping 6-0 in MSL Semis and Finals alone warrants #1 imho.
But this isn't IFFHS for starcraft, the Power Rank is about who's playing the best now you know.
Power Rank isn't as simple as that and you know it. How do you define "playing the best" for example and how do you define "now". The last game? The last 3 games? Probably the last month is how I would define it. And "playing the best" includes winning titles, setting/matching records and showing incredible Bo5 perfomances imho.
On July 01 2011 05:15 Iplaythings wrote: Am I the only who would put JD at 1 and flash at 3-4 since he havent played at all in kt's 2 last PL games and is 0-5 in recent proleague? Taking care of the wrist and MSL curse is all good and taking into consideration but putting him at 1st seems... weird considering he hasn't anything else going for him than "fear" and won starleague cus his last 2 weeks has been pretty bad to be honest.
i just dont feel like he is up there, you might disagree but thats how i feel at this moment...
You have a point but tying NaDa with a whopping 6-0 in MSL Semis and Finals alone warrants #1 imho.
But this isn't IFFHS for starcraft, the Power Rank is about who's playing the best now you know.
Power Rank isn't as simple as that and you know it. How do you define "playing the best" for example and how do you define "now". The last game? The last 3 games? Probably the last month is how I would define it. And "playing the best" includes winning titles, setting/matching records and showing incredible Bo5 perfomances imho.
So what is your point exactly?
You said that achieving particular statistical record alone warrants number 1 in PR. I said it's not. That's was point. It was clearly visible, you know. It doesn't matter if you argue about horizon, the above statement was not true.
JD's ZvZ is a bit suspect right now and his ZvP isn't so dominant as ELO indicates. He no longer looks like he's on a level Protoss players cannot touch. #1 is pushing it.
Regarding MSL, I don't see how anyone can feel certain that Hydra wouldn't have been able to beat JD. If they faced in a bo5 right now I'd bet 60/40 in favor of Hydra, who already beat JD pretty convincingly at a time when JD's ZvZ was looking sharper than it does right now. Again, you're reading way too much into a single loss against Juni.
Zero is stronger than Hydra at ZvT, but at ZvZ Hydra is stronger and I actually think Hydra may be stronger at ZvP. Zero plays a very smart ZvP, but he also drops games much more frequently. Zero is Zero. When he's on he drops my jaw; when he's off I cringe.
flamewheel, can we get a shoutout for piano? i always thought he should retire when he was with stars, but he's played ok this month so i'll take that back
On July 01 2011 07:33 Mortality wrote: People who are bitching about flamewheel must be forum newbies. Historically Power Rank has not been a regular monthly ranking.
Back in Mortality's day you had to wait months for the possibility of getting a PR delivered with a messenger pigeon. Now get off his lawn.
On July 01 2011 07:33 Mortality wrote: People who are bitching about flamewheel must be forum newbies. Historically Power Rank has not been a regular monthly ranking.
Well, who has bitched in a serious way? I'm just messing around, and Okum is using Tuvalu time for crying out loud. XD
flamewheel, can we get a shoutout for piano? i always thought he should retire when he was with stars, but he's played ok this month so i'll take that back
If Piano had retired when he was with Stars, they wouldn't have had a Terran line at all. hOn_sin's got promise now, and MVP was good for that one MSL run. MVP had occasionally good TvP, and Piano has pretty good TvZ (sort of), and that was pretty much it. As much as I love Really, when he joined the team and instantly was the Terran ace, that tells you pretty much everything you need to know about Woongjin Terrans before that.
On July 01 2011 07:33 Mortality wrote: People who are bitching about flamewheel must be forum newbies. Historically Power Rank has not been a regular monthly ranking.
Back in Mortality's day you had to wait months for the possibility of getting a PR delivered with a messenger pigeon. Now get off his lawn.
On July 01 2011 16:16 flamewheel wrote: I'm about brain dead right now, and I can't find a tenth player. I'm going to sleep on it and wait to see if ODT changes anything.
Hoejja!!!!!!
Unless you put him higher, lolol
On July 01 2011 16:29 LunarDestiny wrote: Put yellow at #2 and push everyone one step down.
EPT
Fantasy
Kwanro
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/flamewheel/sadsheep.gif)
but instead ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/Happy2.gif)
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I was not talking about the current PR.
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