EPTotherwise jangbi would be in #1 this month since he is 9-2 + 4 more wins from proleague
Power Rank 06/02/2011 - Page 23
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pvzvt
Israel2097 Posts
otherwise jangbi would be in #1 this month since he is 9-2 + 4 more wins from proleague | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
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oldgregg
New Zealand1176 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
It's not like dominating a prelim group proves anything -- even dominating a wildcard: few people even NOTICED Sea doing it, and in that particular case Sea had turned out some incredibly impressive results earlier that year (see SWL 2010). What has Jangbi done so far this year? Similarly, we've seen top players flop from prelims before. In fact, NaDa, Oov, and Savior all had won 2+ MSL's before escaping OSL prelims. The difference in skill between an MSL winner and somebody who strings together a paltry few wins in PL and/or qualifiers (and even early rounds of major tournaments) in one particular month is like the difference in size between the sun and the moon: they only look the same to a completely untrained eye that has no sense for the vast distances in space. Anybody remember Lucifer's 12 game win streak? Where did that get him? When he finally made Ro16 in MSL and in GOM he got completely and utterly DEMOLISHED by Flash and Jaedong. After that he never again even qualified for a Starleague, never again performed worth shit in PL. And as much as I love Shine, where did he go after that 13 game win streak? At least in that case arguing Shine so high in the ranking could be justified since the last SL had happened THREE months ago. As for why I'm propping up Bisu IN SPITE OF his lousy tournament record, it's because he's the MVP of PL, carrying SKT1 on his back for like 8 months now, and because there's something else to consider in PR besides just wins/losses on a particular month: SKILL. PR always seems to attract extremists. On one end there are guys who want to give the more skilled players the top spots even when they suck things up. On the other end there are guys who want PR to be a run down of who had the most wins last month, completely neglecting the HUMAN ELEMENT. Bisu might have flopped in the prelims, but as long as he keeps performing well in PL I'll let him slide through on that human element. Because I know as well as everybody that so long as his skill remains high and his win rate remains consistent, he will always be a danger come next SL. Everyone is just looking at the raw numbers and nobody is talking quality of performance. Am I the only person who thought Hyvaa really stepped it up in a big way that series? And even so, the way he tried to cheese through that series should show how very much he didn't want to face Bisu in a standard game. Lucky for him he made it.... once. 1. Flash - there is NO ONE ELSE 2. Bisu - everything depends on PL now for Bisu and he could fall if he turns in a bad performance 3. Jaedong - his results and his AWESOME ZvT are propelling him upwards, and even if he sucked it up against Zero, he still did make a semifinal, but I hesitate to put him higher when he is 3-7 in his last 10 ZvZ and still hasn't proved he's completely fixed his vulnerabilities in ZvP. 4-6. Movie, Hydra 5-10. Zero, Horang2, Light, Soulkey, Jangbi (I deliberately overlapped these ranks) -Movie started turning it on in SWL. Just looking at stats: 5-1 this month, 13-2 since April, 25-7 since he started turning it on in mid-February. With the exception of former teammate Iris (who seems exceptionally strong at killing former teammates), every player to have beaten Movie was very strong in vP at the time. -Hydra is obvious. Winning MSL then making semifinal is THE BEST BAR NONE tournament record so far this year. His current PL performance has been solid as well. Seeded for ODT -Soulkey has been ripping it up since April with some high profile wins earned. -Zero: I decided I'd like him ranked, but I really want to see some more wins under his belt. -Horang2: you can't argue with the results. -Light: finally developing a TvP worth mentioning -Jangbi: Rounding out the ranking, I'd put Jangbi probably somewhere in the bottom 3. Let's wait and see if he PROVES himself before putting him higher. Other contenders: -Best: still has a chance to prove himself, but what he really needs to do is prove is that he can actually play PvZ above the D rank ICCup level. Until then, CBNC it is. -Soo: a likely CBNC candidate. I'd rather not rank him till I see he's not just a one match wonder (ZvP). -Jaehoon: I hesitate to place him above CBNC until we see some consistency. The infamous JvX enigma has too solid a reputation of wackiness. -Bogus: Can't really fault him for losing to Flash and JD. Looking at Bogus over the past 3 months or so, it seems like anyone who beats him is high A-class or better vT, but I'd like to see him become something more than just an "S-class indicator." CBNC or possibly low rank on PR. -Roro: we'll see how he does in ODT. CBNC or possibly low rank on PR, depending. | ||
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VGhost
United States3613 Posts
On June 23 2011 09:18 pvzvt wrote: no i insist on counting losses from the prelim that take you out of the osl otherwise jangbi would be in #1 this month since he is 9-2 + 4 more wins from proleague PR isn't based only on monthly record. It's based a lot on where the losses happened, who they happened against, what the result was, how a player's played in the past - so Bisu, for instance, gets cut a lot of slack because he's a triple Starleague winner, the best PvZer ever, and right now probably the best player in Proleague excepting maybe Flash and Jaedong (but maybe not). At the same time, losing in prelims to hyvaa (who is bad) is far more damning than losing to Flash or Jaedong or even someone established (like Really or Crazy-Hydra), or up-and-coming (like Grape or sHy), would be. On June 23 2011 08:30 pvzvt wrote: about the groups yes we all know luck has its factor in how far you may reach (and rarely take the gold with) but bisu's group was just as bad and it doesnt matter who is in that group its who you faced since clearly you are not playing vs all the group just the one you face (luck factor again) i dont see the comparison were you expecting hyun to win vs flash (he faced flash and bogus) of course not and thats exactly what i expected from bisu vs hyvaa ...Which is why Bisu's ranking, barring some absolutely amazing play to close out the month, will be heavily damaged by not passing prelims, especially considering who he lost to - but at the same time we tend to not count the games played: prelims (and starleague play in general) is a pass/fail grade, rather than a winning percentage thing, because advancing is all that counts. EDIT: And as you'll notice, nobody ever agrees exactly on how to weight what. Mortality puts even less weight on prelims than I do, while you (for example) count them just like normal games. Even with the leagues everyone agrees are important, some people weight Proleague more (I tend to), people will disagree about which Starleague is more important (OSL is still a little more prestigious but sometimes MSL will have better groups at least for the sake of comparison - assuming the MSL puts together another season this might be an odd season where it's a better tournament because of prelim results - and so on and so forth. So it's all a question of convincing the PR writer to listen to your opinion.  | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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b0lt
United States790 Posts
edit: 5 game win streak in ZvP | ||
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Tempest[OEC]
United States417 Posts
On June 23 2011 11:05 flamewheel wrote: But what if I don't read anything you guys say? Well played, sir. | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On June 23 2011 11:05 flamewheel wrote: But what if I don't read anything you guys say? You shouldn't anyway. You should be focusing on Mafia. :3 | ||
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DarkMatter_
Canada1774 Posts
If we do get a JD vs Bisu game in Oz vs. SKT, I think that will decide it once and for all who gets the #2 spot but right now, I think Bisu has the edge. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On June 23 2011 09:04 Oystein wrote: If you insist on counting the losses from the prelims, you should probably count the wins also lol... Seems to me prelims are easy to count. Forget the wins and losses. It's a check for you if you make it out. It's a strike against you if you don't. And those seeded from previous tournament get the same treatment as making out of the prelims. So it shouldn't matter if you lose in the 1st round or the finals of your group. You either make it or you don't. | ||
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pvzvt
Israel2097 Posts
On June 23 2011 11:05 flamewheel wrote: But what if I don't read anything you guys say? good one | ||
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nodule
Canada931 Posts
On June 23 2011 09:04 Oystein wrote: If you insist on counting the losses from the prelims, you should probably count the wins also lol... Prelims have got to count for the PR. Wins and losses. It's just that a win against a prelim scrub shouldn't count for much | ||
GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On June 23 2011 14:07 baubo wrote: Seems to me prelims are easy to count. Forget the wins and losses. It's a check for you if you make it out. It's a strike against you if you don't. And those seeded from previous tournament get the same treatment as making out of the prelims. So it shouldn't matter if you lose in the 1st round or the finals of your group. You either make it or you don't. Prelims have got to count for the PR. Wins and losses. It's just that a win against a prelim scrub shouldn't count for much I never meant that prelims should not count, as I have mentioned in earlier posts in this thread is obviously should. What I meant was that I found it hilarious that pvzvt when needing help with his argument decided to just tweak and pick stats\games of his own chosing when reality did not work with his argument. The only way he could make Bisu and Jaedong have the same stats was by randomly ignore all his wins in prelims, but count all his losses. Its basically like me saying "oh well since you play super strong opponents in general in semi finals and finals of starleagues those loses should not count against you, hence Hydra is 10-1 in his last 11 games and should be #1 on PR". You can`t just make up stats on your own when the real numbers does not support your case. Its not even me disagreeing if Bisu should be higher than Jaedong or not, because if people have good arguments for it I don`t see a problem with it, its that he randomly starts to make up stats when it helps his case I have a problem with and hence suggested that if he wants to count the losses from the prelims into the stats, he needs to add the wins also. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
In terms of results, the timetables of the various leagues do not always play nicely with the ranking. You HAVE to take that into account if you want the ranking to have ANY credibility at all. In importance of an INDIVIDUAL game: prelims + special events < proleague < secondary leagues (WCG, Masters, MST, ODT, etc.) + SWL playoffs < PL playoffs + OSL/MSL -Prelims are really just a check of advancement or not. Due to the way prelims are structured and the chaotic nature of results, it's really not THAT big of a check either. There is always a chance of bad luck: 1.) facing the wrong opponent (e.g. Zero fell 2-1 to s2 -- a competent ZvZer on the SKT1 A-team -- in the prelims) or 2.) facing an opponent who steps it up (like hyvaa did to Bisu -- for all that we may criticize Bisu for losing that, how many Protoss players in the same position would have won?) -PL games individually mean very little. What matters is long term consistency (since THIS is what really matters in terms of taking a team to the playoffs) and also WHAT you show. Some players are utilized as snipers and it is not correct to judge a sniper by the same standard as you judge an all-around solid player that gets used wherever he is needed. Many people forget this. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
On June 23 2011 05:19 VGhost wrote: Bisu - 6-1, so he's got fewer losses. But he completely failed prelims, that's not good if you want to be the best player in the world. So Savior was not the best player in the world in 2006? So far I'm for: 1. God Young Ho 2. Jaedong the 3. Kim Taek ???? It is quite true that Bisu's failure in the | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
There's a case to be made for either Jaedong or Bisu at #2, and I'd be happy with either one of them there. The other one should be #3. | ||
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
Actually, about a year ago, he was knocked off #1 because of his ace loss streak, which he really shouldn't have. Those games didn't matter, KT was WAY ahead. | ||
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