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On March 25 2011 03:57 GBataille wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 03:40 Mortality wrote:On March 25 2011 01:09 Hazard wrote:On March 25 2011 00:22 Mortality wrote:
Since when was Bisu ever a bonjwa? ...you seem to be living in a different world than everybody else. That's the problem here, when peepz find weaknesses in Bisu's game and his overall skill - it's okay but when you try to do that with Flash/JD until recently - you are living in your own world  It depends from which side you look on it and I'm talking 2007 Bisu when he ended Savior's bonjwa reign before Jaedong became bonjwa. Who was bonjwa in that gap? I'm not gonna argue but I have my own opinion that it was Bisu (excluding he never won both tourneys which is his curse  ) Jaedong was never a bonjwa either. I have no idea what world you are living in. If you want to think of Jaedong as anything it was more like "#1 contender." Flash did not become the 5th bonjwa until his defeat of Jaedong in both OSL and MSL finals in the same season, at which point he became undisputed. The closest Bisu can boast is his ClubDay MSL/GOM Classic Season 2 run but there's a huge difference between having a single dominant season ("dominant" meaning high win % + SL win + in this case a win in another important tournament) and having over a year of 80+% wins and appearing in every single SL final during that time. If the standard for being bonjwa was simply "beat a previous bonjwa in a finals + have high + multiple finals appearances" then there are other players like Nal_Ra and July who would have the title as well. Bonjwa is undisputed. Bonjwa is Michael Jordan, Sugar Ray Robinson, or Jesse Owens. Bonjwa is undisputed. Bisu was never undisputed. Neither was Jaedong. Flash was. You know a lot and I usually apreciate your posting, but you simplify too much. Both Jaedong and Bisu were undisputed at their peaks. I remember when it seemed like Bisu couldn't lose if he only got the scout in. It was every bit as frustrating as it was to see Flash when he was at his peak :/ (im a zerg fan <3) lol, Jaedong a "#1 contender" when he was ranked #1 in KeSPA 11 coesecutive months? Give me a break ffs...
Really? We're having this discussion again? Maybe Bisu/JD/Stork/July etc. are all bonjwas to you, but that is not the commonly held view. Most people seem to believe that to become a bonjwa you need to both have the aura of invincibility (watch people pleading with Flash in group selections) and push the boundaries of previous achievements. Yes there may have been spans of 6-8 months where Bisu and JD were the best in the world, but they never distanced themselves from their competitors to the point where victory was all but assured. People were complaining that Flash made JD look underpowered.... Come on people, stop eating the lead paint....
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On March 25 2011 03:57 GBataille wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2011 03:40 Mortality wrote:On March 25 2011 01:09 Hazard wrote:On March 25 2011 00:22 Mortality wrote:
Since when was Bisu ever a bonjwa? ...you seem to be living in a different world than everybody else. That's the problem here, when peepz find weaknesses in Bisu's game and his overall skill - it's okay but when you try to do that with Flash/JD until recently - you are living in your own world It depends from which side you look on it and I'm talking 2007 Bisu when he ended Savior's bonjwa reign before Jaedong became bonjwa. Who was bonjwa in that gap? I'm not gonna argue but I have my own opinion that it was Bisu (excluding he never won both tourneys which is his curse ) Jaedong was never a bonjwa either. I have no idea what world you are living in. If you want to think of Jaedong as anything it was more like "#1 contender." Flash did not become the 5th bonjwa until his defeat of Jaedong in both OSL and MSL finals in the same season, at which point he became undisputed. The closest Bisu can boast is his ClubDay MSL/GOM Classic Season 2 run but there's a huge difference between having a single dominant season ("dominant" meaning high win % + SL win + in this case a win in another important tournament) and having over a year of 80+% wins and appearing in every single SL final during that time. If the standard for being bonjwa was simply "beat a previous bonjwa in a finals + have high + multiple finals appearances" then there are other players like Nal_Ra and July who would have the title as well. Bonjwa is undisputed. Bonjwa is Michael Jordan, Sugar Ray Robinson, or Jesse Owens. Bonjwa is undisputed. Bisu was never undisputed. Neither was Jaedong. Flash was. You know a lot and I usually apreciate your posting, but you simplify too much. Both Jaedong and Bisu were undisputed at their peaks. I remember when it seemed like Bisu couldn't lose if he only got the scout in. It was every bit as frustrating as it was to see Flash when he was at his peak :/ (im a zerg fan <3) lol, Jaedong a "#1 contender" when he was ranked #1 in KeSPA 11 coesecutive months? Give me a break ffs...
Other players have been #1 other than the bonjwas. Would you put Maurice Greene on the same level as Jesse Owens and Carl Lewis? Would you put Shaq or Karl Malone on the same level as Jordan and Jabbar? Bonjwas are different.
By your standard, July and Nal_Ra should also be bonjwas but they are not. This is the consensus of the BW community. You are free to say "I think it should be different" but the consensus disagrees.
Bisu never escaped out from under Stork (and from Terrans). In his third consecutive season making finals he fell to Mind in MSL and then got 3-0 obliterated by Stork in OSL (who he had previously only beaten 3-2 in the MSL finals), not to mention that many players would have looked forward to a Savior vs Bisu rematch in a bo5 (leading up to their bo3 face-off in Ever OSL -- Bisu won 2-1 with slightly P favoring maps -- Savior had produced 17-2 results vs P over a 6 month period so even now looking back I do not think a bo5 victory would be anything close to certain on a balanced map pool).
With Bisu there had been talk about bonjwahood when he made his third finals but that talk died when he lost to Mind. The "bonjwa theory" was introduced prior to his finals: NaDa earned 3 MSL golds before an OSL gold (actually OSL gold in same season as 3rd MSL), Oov earned 3 MSL golds then an OSL gold and had overwhelming stats against NaDa, Savior earned 3 MSL gold (and a silver) and an OSL gold (simultaneous with another MSL silver) and had overwhelming stats against Oov. Bisu was fitting with this theory: MSL gold, MSL gold, 3-0 over Savior, but then earned MSL silver and was broken in OSL. The next season, MSL total failure, OSL was rolled by Flash. At this point we're stretching the limits of momentum. Next season, MSL AND OSL failure in the opening round. At this point Bisu's bonjwa hope has died. By the time of ClubDay MSL, Bisu's previous results no longer counted towards being bonjwa. He had been stopped too many times.
With Jaedong he was truly on the verge of being crowned, the first player since Savior, but the Power Outage event produced doubt that he had really earned the title of Bonjwa. The issue of JD not being bonjwa is a little more controversial in this regard: let's pretend that the Power Outage had not happened. At the time of NATE MSL the only thing keeping Jaedong from being crowned was that he needed to beat his last rival: Flash, who was obliterating everyone in PL and had won GOM Classic the previous season and was in the finals of both leagues, something JD himself had not ever accomplished. If the Power Outage had not happened, the 3-1 result might have been enough to crown JD. But it happened and although I think most people felt JD's win was fair, the consensus was that Flash had not been eliminated as a rival. Flash was still "equal."
It took a while in JD being able to reach the level of being on verge of coronation because his record was a bit more spotty. If he had a stronger run earlier this issue might never have meant anything, but his finals streak was interrupted and there were players during this time period who were strong rivals (e.g. Flash, Bisu and Stork -- all of whom produced golds between Ever 07 and Power Outage -- as well as Fantasy). In other words, he had too many "equals." By the time of NATE, JD had stood above all these rivals except one for only that one last hurdle. The consensus was that the Power Outage result was not sufficient. When JD faced Flash yet again -- Flash having even stronger momentum now -- JD failed.
Thus, even though it was Flash who blocked JD, it should be thought of that JD was the contender to Flash's title because JD had never eliminated Flash as an "equal."
JD's legacy is every bit as strong as the bonjwas -- which I think is part of the reason why many people don't use that term anymore -- but he never became one himself.
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Bonjwas didn't win every title, not even close, or even have as good win records as Jaedong except over certain periods. Plus claiming the MSL with the power failure as not good enough is bullshit. I know people like to use it as a big excuse that Flash didn't play as well after that game but Jaedong simply outplayed Flash, he had the better builds, 3 hatch pool vs Rax CC and he was destined to win that title. Not that i think he's a bonjwa, it's a term for a different era and it's totally irrelevant now. Does anyone really give a shit anymore? It's clear it's very hard for a Zerg to ever product the consistent results that people want, to be able to live up to this 'bonjwa' title. The fact he even got to dual league finals last season is impressive enough for me.
I think the modern comparisons are silly especially Savior vs Jaedong. Newer players play a shitload more games, against tougher competition, and still come out with as good if not better stats. Even before his crushing against Bisu he was 65% overall compared to Jaedong's 68% in 619 games compared to 180 games. People just say 'Oh but he had an aura' or something. Well personally i find the current TBLS much more impressive because of who they have to regularly face.
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On March 25 2011 07:57 Elroi wrote:Im not an heretic I don't say that Bisu and Jaedong were bonjwas lol. I don't even like the term. I just feel that they were the best too at their time. Besides, the first thing about being a bonjwa in SC is to be a terran (Savior was an anomaly lol). But I remember a time tough when I felt like Bisu couldn't lose, like no matter who he played against and what map it was on. I don't say that it was as dominant (of course it wasn't) as Flash was/is, but it is comparable and you shouldn't completely forget it and judge Bisu in PR with completely different standards than Flash. (I really don't like Bisu btw, I'm not saying this because I'm a fanboy...) Show nested quote +Bisu won 2-1 with slightly P favoring maps -- Savior had produced 17-2 results vs P over a 6 month period so even now looking back I do not think a bo5 victory would be anything close to certain on a balanced map pool). And I'm convinced that Jaedong would have stomped Flash if they played on fair maps when Flash took the dual gold. ... But this doesn't change the fact that Flash won. I would like to ask you Mortality, how you would compare the dominance of Savior and the dominance of Jaedong at their primes. (And please don't downplay Jaedongs achevements, like you tend to do imo ) I'd like to know because I didn't watch Starcraft when Savior was in his prime, but when I look at stats and achievements, Jaedong seems to be quite a bit ahead. But in the same time I know that stats doesn't say nearly all about older players because the game is so much more stable and figured out now. I'm a LURKER
While I am not Mortality I can give you a bit of info on Savior from his prime. He made 5 MSL finals in a row, won 3 of them (lost a ZvZ to chojja and the 0-3 vs Bisu). Many people believe he would probably have won a few OSLs as well if he had only managed to actually get through the offliners and qualify for them (pure speculations obviously, but many a good player have been stuck in the offliners as they seem to be different thing than broadcasted matches, and in broadcasted matches savior was king), when he actually managed to get through the offliners he went ahead and won the entire thing on his first try while going dual finals on pretty much the most atrocious ZvT map pool you could find playing the absolute best TvZ players of that time (Midas, Hwasin, Nada, Iris) For reference when Jaedong had a similar hard ZvT map pool he got 3-0 in the finals by ForGG.
I seem to remember reading an interview with Savior sometime before the MSL final vs Bisu where he said that he had never even during practice lost a BO5 vs any toss, that`s how good he was during his prime. Every ZvP game he played you just knew Savior would win in some way, he was even cheese proof defending whatever kind of cheese P players would throw at him with inferior builds. For good examples go watch his game vs Daezang@Peaks of Bakadu or his game vs Stork@Loki. Before his loss against Bisu in the EVER2007 OSL he was sitting at a 75% winrate lifetime vs P, similar to what he had before he went ahead and lost 3-0 vs Bisu (which lowered his win% by 4%).
In ZvT he was also really dominant, but not in the same way as his BO3 and BO5 series often got down to the last game to be decided (see again, bad ZvT maps and the inherent slight imbalance in the matchup) but somehow you just knew that Savior would pull through as he did every time. In fact I don`t think he ever lost a BOx series against any P or T before he lost vs Bisu (his 6th starleague final), having his only BOx losses coming in ZvZ. (in those pre Jaedong days consider a big coin flip, and nothing like the matchup is today). So yeah Savior was an absolute beast during his prime and every time he went into a BOx series you knew he would turn out the eventual winner unless it was ZvZ where he COULD lose due to bad luck...
As for his achievements, he was in 5 MSL finals in a row (although easier to do in a few of the MSLs he played since they had loser brackets in MSL for a long time) winning 3 of them a feat nobody else have done before or after him (Nada the most accomplished player of all time was in 4 in a row, flash and bisu in 3 each), and won the only OSL he qualified for during his prime. He was truly one of the best and most dominant players ever, and its a shame that his legacy is that of match fixing. Anyone who claims that he was not as scary as Flash or Jaedong or anyone after him, obviously was not around when he was in his prime or have a bad memory.
Edit: Those who mention that the old players had worse win rates and that people today play against tougher competition, should remember that back in the days there was much less games of PL so most of the games of Savior and those before him was actually from Starleagues against the best players around, not random chumps in PL who never qualifies for MSL\OSL. Also Savior had no winners league to boost his winrates, he got it playing mostly BOx series against the best players around.
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I don't have time for a long post right now, but I don't underrate Jaedong at all -- it's just JD fans that think I do.
In peak dominance, Savior was unambiguously stronger than JD. I think the strength of JD compared to Savior is that JD has had more perseverance, hence a longer and healthier career. Savior had a lot of difficulty surviving the generational gap. I think that Jaedong will have less difficulty doing so, despite his current struggles.
I like Oystein's points, and regarding PL I want to add that the format used to be 3 1v1 and 2 2v2, so the odds of running into a tougher opponent were much higher. Actually, if you go back to the REALLY old days and look at really old results, you'll notice that for example Boxer faced off against Yellow an absurd amount of times. I don't have time to check right now but I think over their careers they have played each other almost SEVENTY times, and most of that was early on.
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Ugh, I can't stand Savior. He was not even close to the most dominant.
"five msl finals in a row OMG"
Yeah, while failing the OSL prelims season after season. He wasn't close to the teamleague monster that Flash or Jaedong have been, and he was able to focus on MSL almost exclusively for most of his run.
Was he a great player? Yes. But he's well behind that of Nada, iloveoov, Flash, and yes, Jaedong.
Titles, winning percentage, ELO. He's outstripped in all three by the latter four. Oh, but he has the AURA™.
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On March 26 2011 02:13 SimonB wrote:
Ugh, I can't stand Savior. He was not even close to the most dominant.
"five msl finals in a row OMG"
Yeah, while failing the OSL prelims season after season. He wasn't close to the teamleague monster that Flash or Jaedong have been, and he was able to focus on MSL almost exclusively for most of his run.
Was he a great player? Yes. But he's well behind that of Nada, iloveoov, Flash, and yes, Jaedong.
Titles, winning percentage, ELO. He's outstripped in all three by the latter four. Oh, but he has the AURA™.
I'm tempted to say you're clueless.
sAviOr series play and particularly his ZvT was incredible.
42-17 (71%) (April 2005 to March 2007)
Series play: 12-0
2-0 iloveoov (19-2 (91%) vs other Zergs!)
3-0 iloveoov
2-0 Yooi (3-4 (42%) vs other Zergs)
3-2 Midas (19-7 (73%) vs other Zergs)
3-0 Boxer (19-4 (83%) vs other Zergs)
3-1 Nada (13-4 (77%) vs other Zergs)
2-1 Justin (5-3 (63%) vs other Zergs)
2-1 Midas
3-2 Hwasin (25-12 (68%) vs other Zergs)
3-2 Iris (9-10 (47%) vs other Zergs)
3-1 Nada
3-1 Casy (23-11 (68%) vs other Zergs)
(thanks to Ver for the data)
That's a pretty good TvZer line-up, isn't it ?
His two SL run is incredible. It featured Midas, Hwasin, Nada and Iris (the worst at the match-up, but the one who was closest to taking him done) on maps that were among the biggest TvZ jokes ever. I mean, everybody talks about Longinus II and Reverse Temple, as though Neo Arkanoid was a an ok ZvT map (free 14CC against forced pool first build, sounds great). During his era of dominance, no other zerg player could come close to those Terrans.
Find something else like that, you'll have some trouble. It will probably be Oov's/Nada TvZ.
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Meh, fuck being bonjwa; JD is GOAT. Seriously though, JD>Savior overall IMO, no matter what arbitrary title you may or may not give them.
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Another argument regarding the word "bonjwa"? I thought people had gotten over this by now. -_-
I didn't start following the BW scene until just after Batoo OSL. How were the maps back then compared to, say, the maps in Arena MSL, Hana Daetoo, and Bigfile MSL?
And am I the only one that giggled at "GOAT"?
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Arena had a worse map in Tiamat, but there was atleast on map that was 50/50, so that'd even out. Savior didn't have a single map that wasn't effectively a 60% TvZ map.
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The GOAT is NaDa, not JD. As far as I'm concerned, nobody is even close to dethroning NaDa as GOAT. It's not just the trophy count or the peak dominance; NaDa rose to the top of SC during the height of Oov and again during the height of Savior to challenge the throne. Before Flash achieved bonjwahood I joked several times that we couldn't settle the matter of the 5th bonjwa until NaDa returned to form.
And Savior... I feel like it's too easy for new players to blindly hate him. Match fixing scandal, trash talk that couldn't be backed up and vocal fans. For you young kids who didn't see Savior rise from just a snot nosed brat to bonjwa it must have seemed like you were staring at a disappointing old has been. Like a former athlete who drinks beer and cusses at the tv all day.
But Savior was great. You had to live through it. If you look back from a modern perspective you don't see the modernization that happened because of him much like how if you look back at Boxer you don't see the ingenuity... just a bunch "progamers" getting their asses kicked by tricks that are now common knowledge.
Savior faced the most impressive TvZ line-up in history and stomped on all of them until NaDa finally managed a bo5 win in OGN Masters in 2007 on a ridiculously T > Z map pool.
I think that if all you felt was anger when you saw Savior involved in the match fixing scandal then you aren't somehow who can appreciate what Savior did. And if you cannot appreciate what Savior did, you cannot appreciate how great his opponents were. If all you felt was anger then you never understood the history of SC. You're just a clueless brat.
If you understood the history then you what felt... what you still feel... is an emptiness that cannot be filled. And whenever you go there and you try to think about it you feel like crying. Savior was always good at that... making people cry. But they used to be his opponents.
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Being disappointed and spiteful aren't mutually exclusive, Mortality.
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I think it's unlikely that the GOAT will come from the past 10 years as opposed to the next 50+.
That said, I think the greatest so far is flash. Most skilled we have ever seen, holds the majority of the important records, and he isn't done yet.
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On March 26 2011 04:47 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Being disappointed and spiteful aren't mutually exclusive, Mortality.
"...if all you felt was anger" is what I said.
On March 26 2011 05:33 hacklebeast wrote:
I think it's unlikely that the GOAT will come from the past 10 years as opposed to the next 50+.
That said, I think the greatest so far is flash. Most skilled we have ever seen, holds the majority of the important records, and he isn't done yet.
Flash could become the GOAT but he hasn't done so yet.
And as for what time period the GOAT will come from... the GOAT is either a player that already has been or a player currently playing. Slowly but surely this game is becoming more and more strategically mined out. One of the most important elements of being GOAT is cross generational dominance and to be honest, it's not clear to me that there's enough undiscovered strategy left for there to be a TRUE next generation. I'd be surprised if BW is still playing on tv 10 years from now. I imagine it will continue having a cult following for decades, perhaps even centuries, to come but at a certain point the expense of running leagues and maintaining teams will outweigh the perceived benefits and corporate funding will run out.
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Oh, woops, my mistake. Apologies.
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what the hell is this GOAT?
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Greatest of all time. You know, Kasparov for chess, Federer for Tennis, Muhammad Ali for boxing etc etc.
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On March 26 2011 08:10 vishrut wrote:
what the hell is this GOAT?
![[image loading]](http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/8599/goat.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +Just kidding. GOAT = Greatest (player) Of All Time
Edit: Ack, damnit. TTT beat me to it.
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EPT
