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5673 Posts
I wake up, and as predicted there is already a tempest in a teacup regarding Fantasy. Plexa has beaten me to the punch here, but let me expand a little on what he said. I'm aware that each PR writer brings a different formula to the table, and mine is this - a player is placed on the rank according to how well he/she has done that month. Now how well to me at least means a lot more than just podium places. Granted, getting 1st, 2nd or 3rd in a major tourney does matter, but to me, it's more a case of how he or she got there. In Starcraft, the end does not justify the means, or Yarnc for example would be much further up the list.
Re: Fantasy sux!?????? - If you have noticed, practically the entire #2 entry talks about the Proleague finals. I am fully aware of his OSL and WCG performance. I am also aware however that in PL finals he gave us what was probably one of the most entertaining games of the season by taking down the best player in the world in his prime, on one of Starcraft's biggest stages. Now, if you guys want to go and weigh that over some WCG losses, go ahead, but in doing so, at least see how someone else might not.
Re: Calm #2!1111oneoneone - I'll take this far more seriously than Bisu for #2, but still, Calm's play, though exquisite, is just a tad below the SKT Terran this month for one reason, and one reason only. As I've already said in the #3 Rank, this guy really should be at #2 this month, and if not for the Proleague finals, he would be. Yes, Calm did take down JD in a bo5, something which Fantasy did not manage to do. In saying that though, you're forgetting that the SKT Terran did take down Jaedong just days earlier on a larger stage, under a lot more pressure. Further, while Calm's play was certainly inspired, it was definitely not in the same league as Fantasy's ace match proxy rax. Perhaps this is more due to lack of opportunity than a lack of ability, but it must be noted, Calm's play this month dropped at least a little short of what we saw from the Terran in the PL finals.
Re: Bisu #2!!!111oneoneone - Seriously guys? Bisu at #2? Did you watch him vs Iris? As I've said in his placement spot, realistically, if not for his destruction of WCG Korea, and the dispatch of our #5 in the process, Bisu would be hard pressed to find a spot on this month's PR. There is no way he's going higher than that this month, the other three contenders are just far too strong. If he had won that series against Iris it would have been a different story, but even giving allowance for his win against Flash/Stork in WCG, there's no way he can hit the top 3 all of who played really, really well in really big games. If Bisu had made any high profile encounters in August it may have been a different story, but thanks to his loss to Iris, he didn't. Sorry, but asking for a #3 spot based on his WCG performance is weak at best.
To sum up, is Fantasy the #2 player in the world right now? Although his WCG performance may nudge the slider towards no, the superior play he exhibited in the PL Finals clearly puts him back in #2 easily. Just go and watch his PL Finals games vs Jaedong and tell me that that isn't some of the best Starcraft you have seen all month.
Ultimately, I approach the PR like I approach Starcraft. Raw results are nice, and taking down big names should raise eyebrows. In the end though, the PR has and always will be a rank of how good a player is, and in analysing that, sometimes it's necessary to go beyond a win/loss ratio in a certain month and see how someone played and not merely stop at how many wins he or she got. Sometimes, in Broodwar, a picturesque journey can far outweigh many high profile destinations, and that's what this PR is all about.
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Fantasy #2 I believe to be accurate. His performance vs Jaedong in OSL semis was some championship quality play. Just by those games I would have ranked him #2-3 completely disregarding his dominance in PL finals.
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Fantasy loses badly in series against JD and Stork, doesn't win a title and still gets no#2 ahead of the WCG, MSL and Gom winners. Should've been 4 ahead of Flash imo, tired of the fantasy fanboyism...
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Wtf an on-time PR? :p Great start to your PR career.  I agree with almost everything, nice job. Fantasy's spot is debatable but my gut feeling would've been to put him there as well, numbers don't say everything.
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MSL finals were whack, kwanro played extremely poorly in most games, so Calm had it beat just by showing up. WCG barely matters to players I'm sure, this is the off season, so they don't want to be practicing 24/7 like they had been before.
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Kinda surprised KeSPa and/or FA isn't up there. :p
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stork is on this list? i havent seen or heard much of him all month, let alone him doing well
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Re: Calm #2!1111oneoneone - I'll take this far more seriously than Bisu for #2, but still, Calm's play, though exquisite, is just a tad below the SKT Terran this month
Riptide, one thing you are not really addressing is each player's proximity to number one. The number two slot, especially around the time all the major tournaments have concluded, really needs to take into considerion just how close each player is to stepping into a #1 slot. Looking at Calm and Fantasy, each was close enough to dethroning Jaedong (who, even with his OSL win, didn't retain this position by much) that they are at least in contention. But who was closer? This is really, in my mind, what determines the #2 player and why Fantasy is not a clear lock, despite being both the best Terran in the world and one of the best overall players.
For Fantasy to get that last feather in his hat (and be the #1 ranked player) his only real option would have been to beat JD in the BO5. In the process, of course, JD would have tumbled into 3rd place or worse, so even if Fantasy then lost the OSL final to Yarnc he would be a lock #1. Still, beating JD in the semis was really the only opportunity for Fantasy to swing a #1 spot.
Calm, on the other hand, would have had a strong case for the #1 spot with only a few extra proleague playoff wins under his belt. If, for example, he had gone 4-0 instead of 2-2 in the playoffs, or his team had advanced just one more round, it would be virtually impossible to deny him the top spot - a much smaller gap than the required "beat JD again on a grand stage". Both players already accomplished the feat once, and Calm did more to push for a top spot in addition to winning an individual league versus a team tournament that, despite Fantasy's amazing performance, the Terran really only had to play 2 important games in. Of all the "hot" players in the last 2 months, Calm has delivered more consistently than Fantasy, Jaedong, Effort, Flash, and everyone else, has an individual title (MSL) to show for it, and is sporting a 67% win ratio over his last 90 games. There's no real way around it; he is closer to the #1 slot than fantasy, has the hardware and win ratio, and passed a harder test more recently.
I'm a huge Fantasy fan but Calm has been the best player in the game for the past month (and possible last 2-3 months overall), and while JD grabbed a title and is the best player overall, thus deserving the #1 slot, Calm is breathing down his neck. Fantasy is definitely not breathing down JD's neck, and that's enough of a differentiator to separate the two players.
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On September 01 2009 10:55 Simple wrote:
stork is on this list? i havent seen or heard much of him all month, let alone him doing well
he stomped #1 and #2 on the PR lulz
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I enjoyed this month's PR. I agree with your rankings, and I definitely enjoyed the writeups. The Stork comment made me laugh (though I do agree that he deserves to be there, considering his wins over Jaedong and Fantasy while practicing primarily by playing WoW).
I agree with Roffles concerning the CBNC format, but I think I'm just a bit lazy.
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This was so amazing.
Very well written!
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LOL at the image on the homepage.
GO GO POWER RANKERS!!!
*transition into insane guitar solo*
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I wouldn't put Fantasy so high up there (Calm probably deserves the number 2 spot more than Fantasy).. but other than that, Power Rank seems good.
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On September 01 2009 10:07 Plexa wrote:
People forget that if Fantasy was on the other side of the Bacchus bracket he would have been an OSL finalist.
I really dislike this argument. To be sure, Yarnc was a huge underdog against Jaedong, and he made himself look worse with extremely poor play - apparently, he doesn't have the nerves to deal with an underdog final yet, and hopefully he'll recover better than BeSt did after getting stomped by July.
But, prior to actually playing, Yarnc was one of two or three Zergs most of us would have given a shot against Jaedong (the others being EffOrt and Calm, after their recent results). Additionally, Yarnc would probably have been favored against fantasy. Yarnc vs fantasy would have been much better than Yarnc vs type-b, but I don't think you can automatically say fantasy would have won.
Plus if Bisu had been on that side of the bracket he would have been an OSL finalist. Oh yes. What now?
(Okay, he wouldn't have, it's Bisu in the OSL. But you get my point.)
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On September 01 2009 10:38 riptide wrote:
I wake up, and as predicted there is already a tempest in a teacup regarding Fantasy. Plexa has beaten me to the punch here, but let me expand a little on what he said. I'm aware that each PR writer brings a different formula to the table, and mine is this - a player is placed on the rank according to how well he/she has done that month. Now how well to me at least means a lot more than just podium places. Granted, getting 1st, 2nd or 3rd in a major tourney does matter, but to me, it's more a case of how he or she got there. In Starcraft, the end does not justify the means, or Yarnc for example would be much further up the list.
Re: Fantasy sux!?????? - If you have noticed, practically the entire #2 entry talks about the Proleague finals. I am fully aware of his OSL and WCG performance. I am also aware however that in PL finals he gave us what was probably one of the most entertaining games of the season by taking down the best player in the world in his prime, on one of Starcraft's biggest stages. Now, if you guys want to go and weigh that over some WCG losses, go ahead, but in doing so, at least see how someone else might not.
Re: Calm #2!1111oneoneone - I'll take this far more seriously than Bisu for #2, but still, Calm's play, though exquisite, is just a tad below the SKT Terran this month for one reason, and one reason only. As I've already said in the #3 Rank, this guy really should be at #2 this month, and if not for the Proleague finals, he would be. Yes, Calm did take down JD in a bo5, something which Fantasy did not manage to do. In saying that though, you're forgetting that the SKT Terran did take down Jaedong just days earlier on a larger stage, under a lot more pressure. Further, while Calm's play was certainly inspired, it was definitely not in the same league as Fantasy's ace match proxy rax. Perhaps this is more due to lack of opportunity than a lack of ability, but it must be noted, Calm's play this month dropped at least a little short of what we saw from the Terran in the PL finals.
Re: Bisu #2!!!111oneoneone - Seriously guys? Bisu at #2? Did you watch him vs Iris? As I've said in his placement spot, realistically, if not for his destruction of WCG Korea, and the dispatch of our #5 in the process, Bisu would be hard pressed to find a spot on this month's PR. There is no way he's going higher than that this month, the other three contenders are just far too strong. If he had won that series against Iris it would have been a different story, but even giving allowance for his win against Flash/Stork in WCG, there's no way he can hit the top 3 all of who played really, really well in really big games. If Bisu had made any high profile encounters in August it may have been a different story, but thanks to his loss to Iris, he didn't. Sorry, but asking for a #3 spot based on his WCG performance is weak at best.
To sum up, is Fantasy the #2 player in the world right now? Although his WCG performance may nudge the slider towards no, the superior play he exhibited in the PL Finals clearly puts him back in #2 easily. Just go and watch his PL Finals games vs Jaedong and tell me that that isn't some of the best Starcraft you have seen all month.
Ultimately, I approach the PR like I approach Starcraft. Raw results are nice, and taking down big names should raise eyebrows. In the end though, the PR has and always will be a rank of how good a player is, and in analysing that, sometimes it's necessary to go beyond a win/loss ratio in a certain month and see how someone played and not merely stop at how many wins he or she got. Sometimes, in Broodwar, a picturesque journey can far outweigh many high profile destinations, and that's what this PR is all about.
hi riptide , i want to start my post with telling you great and good things . i really liked your comments and your arguments about your PR . your PR is not so bad , its still your opinion . i just want to thanks you for your great job and passion . please dont listen to poor people saying JWD was better . you are not behind him , just different . your way you see SC is different . your passion is different . we can enjoy your writes as much as the JWD ones . keep it going !!
i would like to answer about your opinion of fantasy .
fantasy is a really really good player , as you said , he showed one of the biggest moment of SC ever . his games at PL finals against JD and hiya was AMAZING . his game vs hiya just blowed me . he is in the top of SC without a doubt . he has the strengh to beat everyone on earth , he scares me everymatch he plays against the players i love . fantasy is respectable . but you must not forget a few things . fantasy is an unexperimented player compare to bisu , jaedong or calm . the way he lost to jaedong in OSL semis was really really pathetic . and i think many people will agree with this . he just gave some questions about his PL wins . the ace match was a boxer build , a boxer idea , a boxer strat . boxer will be forever the smartest player ever . he knew he had to make someone play his strat and not himself to cheat jaedong . fantasy is just NOTHING without boxer and oov . and his august's loss showed he needs experience and solid . he ALMOST lost to kal , i watched this game in live and i can say he really deserved to lose . he get OVERRAPED by stork in a new pathetic way . his wins over jaedong in PL finals are his ONLY performance this month .
when calm won jaedong and kwanro in BIG zvz series after have done some great july month , and when bisu detroyed perfectman , luxury , stork and flash in BIG games , you just cant put fantasy higher than them .
if bisu would have missed his WCG , then yes ok bisu should be lower . if calm would have lost his MSL finals , then yes he should be lower . but calm won 3 1 in one of the best zvz series i have ever watched and bisu just CRUSHED the WCG .
you just cant give fantasy so high rank , its just unfair . i agree PL is more important than OSL and MSL , but its not everything . OSL MSL and WCG are big stages too , and you can not ignore them .
the first 4 spots are unchangable and clear
1 jaedong
2 bisu
3 calm
4 fantasy
the others spots are hard to choose i guess , but the first 4 are CLEAR and CLEAR
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Very good PR, couldn't agree more
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Let's see...is Jaedong, Calm, Bisu, Flash and Stork ranked? Check. Nice ranking~
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United States1865 Posts
Great rank riptide - its the mark of a good PR that even if you disagree with some of the picks, the detail and persuasiveness in the justifications make you completely understand why they were made.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 01 2009 11:16 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2009 10:07 Plexa wrote:
People forget that if Fantasy was on the other side of the Bacchus bracket he would have been an OSL finalist. I really dislike this argument. To be sure, Yarnc was a huge underdog against Jaedong, and he made himself look worse with extremely poor play - apparently, he doesn't have the nerves to deal with an underdog final yet, and hopefully he'll recover better than BeSt did after getting stomped by July. But, prior to actually playing, Yarnc was one of two or three Zergs most of us would have given a shot against Jaedong (the others being EffOrt and Calm, after their recent results). Additionally, Yarnc would probably have been favored against fantasy. Yarnc vs fantasy would have been much better than Yarnc vs type-b, but I don't think you can automatically say fantasy would have won. Plus if Bisu had been on that side of the bracket he would have been an OSL finalist. Oh yes. What now?(Okay, he wouldn't have, it's Bisu in the OSL. But you get my point.)
Its quite obvious when you have half of a bracket being comprised of HITE players (none of whom are really any good) that that side of the bracket is the easy bracket.
On a completely unrelated note, I dont think people realize that despite all the hype around calm, he's only really played zvz in the past month. It doesn't matter if thats his weakest matchup, because really, his series vs best wasn't convincing either. Calm getting #3 is really pushing it imo, if he hadn't have taken out Jaedong he would be struggling to break top 5 really =/
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On September 01 2009 11:26 Plexa wrote:
On a completely unrelated note, I dont think people realize that despite all the hype around calm, he's only really played zvz in the past month. It doesn't matter if thats his weakest matchup, because really, his series vs best wasn't convincing either. Calm getting #3 is really pushing it imo, if he hadn't have taken out Jaedong he would be struggling to break top 5 really =/
Calm is 67% in his last like 90 games, and just won an MSL against the hardest comp in the tournament... what more could he possibly do? I mean it literally, that's S-tier w/hardware to back it, no way to deny it whatsoever. I'm curious as to what more you could demand of someone for a number 2 or 3 spot, because normally that's enough for a huge consensus #1.
Had he won ANYTHING else he'd jump straight to #1 so he has to be number 2, even 3 is stretching it because he completely dominated the MSL after an entire season of excellence.
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EPT
