CBNC - If WCG were the be all and end all of Broodwar, Luxury would be making the PR. Thankfully, it isn't, and despite 2-0ing our #3 in the said tournament, Luxury is going nowhere near the top ten this month. If he had managed to slip by Bisu, and failing that, at least managed to wrestle JD for a podium place, he may have had a shot, but as it stands, sorry Luxury, CBNC.
- Earlier this month, a couple of relative no namers showed us that the all kill was the perfect opportunity for newbies to shine. The STX Masters was the only team league on in August, and with Proleague out of the way coaches turned their full attention to securing a win here. Not a high profile tourney, no, but a trophy is a trophy, right? Indeed, this makes the feats of GosI[Flying] and FireFist pretty remarkable. Although the former faced a less formidable lineup than the KT Zerg did, together these two make CNBC for the first time by sharing a slot between them.
- August's most hyped all killer however does deserve a special mention. Despite hailing from a notoriously bad Zerg department, not only is Hyuk 6-0 this month, but his wins include names like Jaedong, Hwasin, hero and Kal. Winning two of those games in the high pressure environment of a Proleague finals and performing an all kill in the finals of another tournament against a notoriously deep STX lineup and taking the title for your team single-handedly certainly sealed the deal this time around and for that, Hyuk stands on his own in this time's CBNC.
FA News - JWD declines contract and retires amidst a collective shout of anguish It's with a tinge of sadness that we bid adieu to JWD, destroyer of PR and writing team Ace. While LJD retiring would have sent many of you into a downward spiral of depression, I maintain that JWD's retirement is far more detrimental to TL ESPORTS in general.
Either way, as I take over this task, I do so with humility, for it truly is a humbling experience to be placed alongside writers like DJEtterStyle, Fakesteve, and the now departing JWD. I have big shoes to fill, and will do my best to do justice to what I believe is one of TL's most hallowed of traditions.
Oh welcome to riptide! Oh boy do I love reading your stuff.
Pretty good first write up. =)
Couple notes though: Not a fan of the layout on your CNBC list. I know that I should probably stop being lazy and actually read the text explanation, but it does make it infinitely easier when you list a gamer first, then give an explanation of why they didnt make it. Just my opinion at least.
Overall though, I've got to agree with the ranks. Although I do believe that Fantasy is a tad high for the way he got obliterated by JD and Stork in MSL/WCG.
great rank though mate, really, really enjoyed it. I would've probably put stork up a rank, and dropped kwanro down one, but its not me making the ranks.
thanks again. the last F5 before bed really gave me a pleasant surprise
I think when you look at august as a whole, fantasy at #2 makes a lot more sense than calm (who really has just played zvzs all month). And indeed, if fantasy played calm in a bo5 I'd pick fantasy every time - which is a good test for any PR imo.
Only things i'd change are flash-bisu since i think Flash performed stronger overall in August, and well, that game on heartbreak hardly showed who was the better player (map imbalance determined the first two games imo) so there are grounds to put flash higher - but hey, its a good rank.
I can agree with you putting JD number one although he was far from dominant but fantasy as number 2? You cant possibly put someone there who has lost 6 of his last 10 games( two of his wins were against an amateur. He got kicked out of every league pretty badly so all you can say for his defense is his PL finals but that was it. He is more of a number five at highest. I'm ok with the rest just that hyuk deserved the 10 far more than effort (he won against July 3-1 not 3-0) and his 5-6 record this month. I mean seriously he beat far stronger players, has more wins and not a single loss.
On September 01 2009 00:51 luckybeni2 wrote: I can agree with you putting JD number one although he was far from dominant but fantasy as number 2? You cant possibly put someone there who has lost 6 of his last 10 games( two of his wins were against an amateur. He got kicked out of every league pretty badly so all you can say for his defense is his PL finals but that was it. He is more of a number five at highest. I'm ok with the rest just that hyuk deserved the 10 far more than effort (he won against July 3-1 not 3-0) and his 5-6 record this month. I mean seriously he beat far stronger players, has more wins and not a single loss.
good post =) .
hyuk instead of effort is a really good question , the STX masters finals really impressed me .
but to comment this PR , fantasy #2 is NOT possible . he lost too many games in a pathetic way . the PL finals is not everything . bisu deserve EASILY the #2 spot , watch his games against luxury stork and flash and even perfectman . he is REALLY SCARY .
bisu is the ONLY ONE who can be compare to jaedong , he is the ONLY ONE who can give a game to jaedong without let him being the favourite . the WCG will be maybe the best EVER . i miss androide =( .
iris above kwanro is not possible too . kwanro played really well this month killed iris and zero . last month he RAPED flash , he deserve more than iris . iris 3 2 vs bisu is his ONLY performance this month . he got RAPED by flash and perfectman , he does NOT deserve more than the #9 spot .
1. jaedong 2. bisu 3. calm 4. fantasy 5. flash or kwanro 6. kwanro or flash 7. yarnc or stork 8. stork or yarnc 9. iris 10. effort or hyuk
THIS IS THE GOOD PR . IM THE MASTER OF HUMANS . JUST DONT SPEAK AND FOLLOW MY WAY . ^^ joking :p
Hahaha so funny. When JWD said that the new PR writer is going to be an amazing writer, I was thinking riptide. Then, still before seeing your name, after I read this sentence:
"While beginning the month with two wins against his nemesis EffOrt, Jaedong also lost to Orion in the same semi final, and then went on to get stomped by a SKT led by frontman Fantasy in the Proleague Grand Finals, letting down his team, and as his fans would say, himself."
I was 100% certain it was riptide =D No one writes in the same way.
Good rank. I'd probably put Yarnc over Stork because a WCG silver < OSL Silver, and Yarnc only got stopped by the best MU in history, even if it was embarrassing.
On September 01 2009 00:51 luckybeni2 wrote: I can agree with you putting JD number one although he was far from dominant but fantasy as number 2? You cant possibly put someone there who has lost 6 of his last 10 games( two of his wins were against an amateur. He got kicked out of every league pretty badly so all you can say for his defense is his PL finals but that was it. He is more of a number five at highest. I'm ok with the rest just that hyuk deserved the 10 far more than effort (he won against July 3-1 not 3-0) and his 5-6 record this month. I mean seriously he beat far stronger players, has more wins and not a single loss.
good post =) .
hyuk instead of effort is a really good question , the STX masters finals really impressed me .
but to comment this PR , fantasy #2 is NOT possible . he lost too many games in a pathetic way . the PL finals is not everything . bisu deserve EASILY the #2 spot , watch his games against luxury stork and flash and even perfectman . he is REALLY SCARY .
bisu is the ONLY ONE who can be compare to jaedong , he is the ONLY ONE who can give a game to jaedong without let him being the favourite . the WCG will be maybe the best EVER . i miss androide =( .
iris above kwanro is not possible too . kwanro played really well this month killed iris and zero . last month he RAPED flash , he deserve more than iris . iris 3 2 vs bisu is his ONLY performance this month . he got RAPED by flash and perfectman , he does NOT deserve more than the #9 spot .
1. jaedong 2. bisu 3. calm 4. fantasy 5. flash or kwanro 6. kwanro or flash 7. yarnc or stork 8. stork or yarnc 9. iris 10. effort or hyuk
THIS IS THE GOOD PR . IM THE MASTER OF HUMANS . JUST DONT SPEAK AND FOLLOW MY WAY . ^^ joking :p
For someone who claims to hate Bisu and not mind Fantasy, you sure do put down the latter and talk up a storm about how awesome the former is.
Should've been Bisu at #2, I think. Sure, Proleague matters, but Bisu has had a far more impressive month than Fantasy. Besides, Bisu did his job in the Proleague finals too, even though he wasn't given the opportunity to show off. And arguably, winning WCG Korea -- given the opponents -- is at least as good as defeating Kwanro in a ZvZ in my book.
Maybe also Calm above Fantasy, not sure about that.
At least all 10 people on the rank deserve to be there, and all are *roughly* in the right spots, so not much to complain about overall.
Like some others, I would probably have done Jaedong/Calm/Bisu/Fantasy, but I can see how your rank works out, both because PL/MSL Quarters feel longer ago than they actually were, and because Calm has had the lucky break of only needing to practice one matchup.
Also, good to see the CBNC mention of Hyuk.
I wonder how next month will play out given that we have such a dry month coming up.
On September 01 2009 02:22 TheYango wrote: I wonder how next month will play out given that we have such a dry month coming up.
The horror -_-
I suggest TL members join forces to sponsor a September Tournament where the existing PR top 10 can duke it out solely to decide their respective positions on the next rank.
Ahw, awesome Riptide, nice "virgin" PR, I think you will do it just fine.
Even though I'd place Hyuk instead of Effort (Yeah I know, Blizzcon is a tourny but it's SC BW PR is about, not SC2, sorry to say it, but thats either a bit CJ biased of forgetting the other thing).
good first rank, though I think this was a pretty straightforward one to do. I'm excited to see what you'll have for us next month when there might be some harder spots to nail down.
for what it's woth, I don't mind the CBNC format, but I think the player names should at least be linked to their TLPD pages.
I really don't like Fantasy at #2- I'd have placed him at #4 or #5. When you have two Starleague winners, they really both deserve either 1st and 2nd place, barring extraordinary circumstances. Lets see, Jaedong is still Jaedong (despite some blunders resulting from FA stress), and he made the semi's of the MSL. No problem there. Calm not only won the MSL, but 3-1'd the greatest ZvZer in SC history and front-runner for #1. I think a player would have had to have had a flawless month break up the top 2, and Fantasy certianly did not, losing as many games vs big names as he won. He was certainly the centerpiece of T1 during their victorious PL finals, but he never had a chance to impress with a big bo5. Oh wait, he did. And he lost. I guess we could always use the standard "oh come on, it's Jaedong" excuse. Calm didn't have to.
That said, I like the rest of the rank and your writing.
On September 01 2009 03:39 3clipse wrote: I really don't like Fantasy at #2- I'd have placed him at #4 or #5. When you have two Starleague winners, they really both deserve either 1st and 2nd place, barring extraordinary circumstances. Lets see, Jaedong is still Jaedong (despite some blunders resulting from FA stress), and he made the semi's of the MSL. No problem there. Calm not only won the MSL, but 3-1'd the greatest ZvZer in SC history and front-runner for #1. I think a player would have had to have had a flawless month break up the top 2, and Fantasy certianly did not, losing as many games vs big names as he won. He was certainly the centerpiece of T1 during their victorious PL finals, but he never had a chance to impress with a big bo5. Oh wait, he did. And he lost. I guess we could always use the standard "oh come on, it's Jaedong" excuse. Calm didn't have to.
That said, I like the rest of the rank and your writing.
IMO the thing that keeps Calm from the #2 or #1 spot is that he only had to play one matchup all month (ok, he played one non ZvZ match, but that's ZvBest; no A-class Zerg needs to practice that), where every other contender for that spot had to play all their matchups. While I'm not trying to take away from his achievement, I still don't think I'd put my money on him in a Bo5 against Jaedong or Bisu (Fantasy is a bit harder to judge; I don't 100% agree with him at #2, but at the same time, I'm not sure Calm deserves #2 off 1 matchup).
On September 01 2009 03:39 3clipse wrote: I really don't like Fantasy at #2- I'd have placed him at #4 or #5. When you have two Starleague winners, they really both deserve either 1st and 2nd place, barring extraordinary circumstances. Lets see, Jaedong is still Jaedong (despite some blunders resulting from FA stress), and he made the semi's of the MSL. No problem there. Calm not only won the MSL, but 3-1'd the greatest ZvZer in SC history and front-runner for #1. I think a player would have had to have had a flawless month break up the top 2, and Fantasy certianly did not, losing as many games vs big names as he won. He was certainly the centerpiece of T1 during their victorious PL finals, but he never had a chance to impress with a big bo5. Oh wait, he did. And he lost. I guess we could always use the standard "oh come on, it's Jaedong" excuse. Calm didn't have to.
That said, I like the rest of the rank and your writing.
IMO the thing that keeps Calm from the #2 or #1 spot is that he only had to play one matchup all month (ok, he played one non ZvZ match, but that's ZvBest; no A-class Zerg needs to practice that), where every other contender for that spot had to play all their matchups. While I'm not trying to take away from his achievement, I still don't think I'd put my money on him in a Bo5 against Jaedong or Bisu (Fantasy is a bit harder to judge; I don't 100% agree with him at #2, but at the same time, I'm not sure Calm deserves #2 off 1 matchup).
If it's not calm, it's someone else. Fantasy isn't #2 material. Except in the OSL.
On September 01 2009 03:39 3clipse wrote: I really don't like Fantasy at #2- I'd have placed him at #4 or #5. When you have two Starleague winners, they really both deserve either 1st and 2nd place, barring extraordinary circumstances. Lets see, Jaedong is still Jaedong (despite some blunders resulting from FA stress), and he made the semi's of the MSL. No problem there. Calm not only won the MSL, but 3-1'd the greatest ZvZer in SC history and front-runner for #1. I think a player would have had to have had a flawless month break up the top 2, and Fantasy certianly did not, losing as many games vs big names as he won. He was certainly the centerpiece of T1 during their victorious PL finals, but he never had a chance to impress with a big bo5. Oh wait, he did. And he lost. I guess we could always use the standard "oh come on, it's Jaedong" excuse. Calm didn't have to.
That said, I like the rest of the rank and your writing.
IMO the thing that keeps Calm from the #2 or #1 spot is that he only had to play one matchup all month (ok, he played one non ZvZ match, but that's ZvBest; no A-class Zerg needs to practice that), where every other contender for that spot had to play all their matchups. While I'm not trying to take away from his achievement, I still don't think I'd put my money on him in a Bo5 against Jaedong or Bisu (Fantasy is a bit harder to judge; I don't 100% agree with him at #2, but at the same time, I'm not sure Calm deserves #2 off 1 matchup).
I see your point. But here's the thing; it's common knowledge that ZvZ has traditionally been Calm's weakest matchup. He's already proven his ZvT and ZvP prowess. This is the month it all came together for Calm. He not only won his first Starleague, but he's proven that he can play every matchup exquisitely, taking out both players we used to think were untouchable as the top two zergs. Easily deserved #2 spot, with Bisu being a stronger candidate for #3 than Fantasy (not a huge issue for me though).
On September 01 2009 03:39 3clipse wrote: I really don't like Fantasy at #2- I'd have placed him at #4 or #5. When you have two Starleague winners, they really both deserve either 1st and 2nd place, barring extraordinary circumstances. Lets see, Jaedong is still Jaedong (despite some blunders resulting from FA stress), and he made the semi's of the MSL. No problem there. Calm not only won the MSL, but 3-1'd the greatest ZvZer in SC history and front-runner for #1. I think a player would have had to have had a flawless month break up the top 2, and Fantasy certianly did not, losing as many games vs big names as he won. He was certainly the centerpiece of T1 during their victorious PL finals, but he never had a chance to impress with a big bo5. Oh wait, he did. And he lost. I guess we could always use the standard "oh come on, it's Jaedong" excuse. Calm didn't have to.
That said, I like the rest of the rank and your writing.
IMO the thing that keeps Calm from the #2 or #1 spot is that he only had to play one matchup all month (ok, he played one non ZvZ match, but that's ZvBest; no A-class Zerg needs to practice that), where every other contender for that spot had to play all their matchups. While I'm not trying to take away from his achievement, I still don't think I'd put my money on him in a Bo5 against Jaedong or Bisu (Fantasy is a bit harder to judge; I don't 100% agree with him at #2, but at the same time, I'm not sure Calm deserves #2 off 1 matchup).
I see your point. But here's the thing; it's common knowledge that ZvZ has traditionally been Calm's weakest matchup. He's already proven his ZvT and ZvP prowess. This is the month it all came together for Calm. He not only won his firts Starleague, but he's proven that he can play every matchup exquisitely, taking out both players we used to think were untouchable as the top two zergs. Easily deserved #2 spot, with Bisu being a stronger candidate for #3 than Fantasy (not a huge issue for me though).
nothing to say more .
i think people are underestimate bisu and calm and overestimate fantasy a lot . i think we will see some fun results in the next season ^^ . JAEDONG STORK CALM AND KAL FIGHTING !!!
OZ FIGHTING STX FIGHTING ESTRO FIGHTING HITE FIGHTING
Very well written and a joy to read. I loved the b alliteration in JD's commentary and how JULY wasn't as kind to August was to STX. Great PR and I can't see any way to change it.
Bisu over Calm would be a serious and deliberate error. Calm did more to carry his team in PL than Bisu, won a major individual league, and took out the consensus #1 player in the process in his best matchup. There is literally nothing more Calm could have done in such a stretch without being bumped all the way to #1 (for example, hitting RO4 in another league or pushing STX to the PL finals). You really couldn't add a single achievement to Calm's recent resume without him automatically hitting #1 for the month, so he's got to be #2.
Bisu, on the other hand, didn't even get close to delivering a specific performance to put him on the border of a #1 ranking. Part of it was him getting creamed in individual leagues, and part was him not being matched up against JD in PL finals, but regardless he hasn't delivered a "nearly #1 performance" and couldn't possibly deserve a higher rank than Calm.
Fantasy is... probably misplaced. Do I think he's either the second or third best player in the world? Absolutely. But he probably should be #3, behind Calm, or #4, behind Bisu, both of whom have delivered a bit more consistently. Fantasy deserves no worse than #4 for his ridiculous PL finals, and his games against JD were very, very close, but in the end he left us wanting.
I like the placements, JD and Calm are title holders they have to lead the rank, however Bisu could have been #2 or #3 after Calm, he's just crazy crazy strong lately, he didn't succeed in starleagues, but it's the same with fantasy. His micro vs Flash in game 3 was the most impressive i've ever seen from protoss.
I like this month's rank, far more accurate than last month's.
fantasy at #2 looks weird at first, but if you think about it, that's really only because we tend to prioritize games at the END of August (where he wasn't looking so hot) over games at the BEGINNING of August (where he was on fire). I probably would've put him at #3 and Calm at #2, but no big deal.
The rest of it looks good. I'm really disappointed in EffOrt, he looked completely helpless against Flash, getting thoroughly and overwhelmingly smacked down by both bio (Game 1) and mech (Game 2). Hopefully he picks up his play for the sake of CJ's ace needs.
To be quite honest, I don't like this writing style at all. It's like a bard singing cheesy tales about what heroic things happened last month. The ranking itself seems accurate enough, but I prefer JWD's drier style with links to remarkable games and stuff.
People forget that if Fantasy was on the other side of the Bacchus bracket he would have been an OSL finalist. Really, that semifinal was the final of Bacchus. Additionally Bisu did nothing all of august except WCG, and lose to iris in PAINFUL fashion. Yes he had a good WCG run, but aside from beating Flash he had a pretty cruisey run. (he didn't look that good against free either).
At the end of the day its not just about results. They do matter, but really, how the games panned out and the quality of those games means so much more than the score card. Etter justified placing Anytime #2 over Nada #3 in the PR immediately following Shinhan 2 and it is something that everyone since has done.
Seriously, why all the Bisu hate on here? It's been going on for a while that Bisu gets placed lower than he actually should be placed on this rank. Hey, sup, he's Elo #1 again - sure JD #1 with golden mouse is nothing to doubt - but uhhhhm Bisu won Stork, Flash, Lux with quite an ease - only lost to IriS 2-3 after all - and the last game was so fucking close it was a combination of (mini-)choke and IriS being TvP gosu - tell me please - who except Jaedong is playing better SC than Bisu? Guess what? None does.
The only reason why Fanta is over Bisu in this rank? Cause he did oh so great vs "everybody's darling" Jaedong in PL - and yet lost a Bo5 to him - AGAIN.
Sure Fantasy is fucking great, no doubt about that, but sorry folks, Bisu is even better. Bisu is the favorite against anybody in this world except Jaedong - where the odds would be like 48-52 for JD I guess.
Yes, even vs Fantasy he'd be the favorite. Yes, his OSL run was pathetic to say the least - but that was last PR, eh?
I wake up, and as predicted there is already a tempest in a teacup regarding Fantasy. Plexa has beaten me to the punch here, but let me expand a little on what he said. I'm aware that each PR writer brings a different formula to the table, and mine is this - a player is placed on the rank according to how well he/she has done that month. Now how well to me at least means a lot more than just podium places. Granted, getting 1st, 2nd or 3rd in a major tourney does matter, but to me, it's more a case of how he or she got there. In Starcraft, the end does not justify the means, or Yarnc for example would be much further up the list.
Re: Fantasy sux!?????? - If you have noticed, practically the entire #2 entry talks about the Proleague finals. I am fully aware of his OSL and WCG performance. I am also aware however that in PL finals he gave us what was probably one of the most entertaining games of the season by taking down the best player in the world in his prime, on one of Starcraft's biggest stages. Now, if you guys want to go and weigh that over some WCG losses, go ahead, but in doing so, at least see how someone else might not.
Re: Calm #2!1111oneoneone - I'll take this far more seriously than Bisu for #2, but still, Calm's play, though exquisite, is just a tad below the SKT Terran this month for one reason, and one reason only. As I've already said in the #3 Rank, this guy really should be at #2 this month, and if not for the Proleague finals, he would be. Yes, Calm did take down JD in a bo5, something which Fantasy did not manage to do. In saying that though, you're forgetting that the SKT Terran did take down Jaedong just days earlier on a larger stage, under a lot more pressure. Further, while Calm's play was certainly inspired, it was definitely not in the same league as Fantasy's ace match proxy rax. Perhaps this is more due to lack of opportunity than a lack of ability, but it must be noted, Calm's play this month dropped at least a little short of what we saw from the Terran in the PL finals.
Re: Bisu #2!!!111oneoneone - Seriously guys? Bisu at #2? Did you watch him vs Iris? As I've said in his placement spot, realistically, if not for his destruction of WCG Korea, and the dispatch of our #5 in the process, Bisu would be hard pressed to find a spot on this month's PR. There is no way he's going higher than that this month, the other three contenders are just far too strong. If he had won that series against Iris it would have been a different story, but even giving allowance for his win against Flash/Stork in WCG, there's no way he can hit the top 3 all of who played really, really well in really big games. If Bisu had made any high profile encounters in August it may have been a different story, but thanks to his loss to Iris, he didn't. Sorry, but asking for a #3 spot based on his WCG performance is weak at best.
To sum up, is Fantasy the #2 player in the world right now? Although his WCG performance may nudge the slider towards no, the superior play he exhibited in the PL Finals clearly puts him back in #2 easily. Just go and watch his PL Finals games vs Jaedong and tell me that that isn't some of the best Starcraft you have seen all month.
Ultimately, I approach the PR like I approach Starcraft. Raw results are nice, and taking down big names should raise eyebrows. In the end though, the PR has and always will be a rank of how good a player is, and in analysing that, sometimes it's necessary to go beyond a win/loss ratio in a certain month and see how someone played and not merely stop at how many wins he or she got. Sometimes, in Broodwar, a picturesque journey can far outweigh many high profile destinations, and that's what this PR is all about.
Fantasy #2 I believe to be accurate. His performance vs Jaedong in OSL semis was some championship quality play. Just by those games I would have ranked him #2-3 completely disregarding his dominance in PL finals.
Fantasy loses badly in series against JD and Stork, doesn't win a title and still gets no#2 ahead of the WCG, MSL and Gom winners. Should've been 4 ahead of Flash imo, tired of the fantasy fanboyism...
Wtf an on-time PR? :p Great start to your PR career. I agree with almost everything, nice job. Fantasy's spot is debatable but my gut feeling would've been to put him there as well, numbers don't say everything.
MSL finals were whack, kwanro played extremely poorly in most games, so Calm had it beat just by showing up. WCG barely matters to players I'm sure, this is the off season, so they don't want to be practicing 24/7 like they had been before.
Re: Calm #2!1111oneoneone - I'll take this far more seriously than Bisu for #2, but still, Calm's play, though exquisite, is just a tad below the SKT Terran this month
Riptide, one thing you are not really addressing is each player's proximity to number one. The number two slot, especially around the time all the major tournaments have concluded, really needs to take into considerion just how close each player is to stepping into a #1 slot. Looking at Calm and Fantasy, each was close enough to dethroning Jaedong (who, even with his OSL win, didn't retain this position by much) that they are at least in contention. But who was closer? This is really, in my mind, what determines the #2 player and why Fantasy is not a clear lock, despite being both the best Terran in the world and one of the best overall players.
For Fantasy to get that last feather in his hat (and be the #1 ranked player) his only real option would have been to beat JD in the BO5. In the process, of course, JD would have tumbled into 3rd place or worse, so even if Fantasy then lost the OSL final to Yarnc he would be a lock #1. Still, beating JD in the semis was really the only opportunity for Fantasy to swing a #1 spot.
Calm, on the other hand, would have had a strong case for the #1 spot with only a few extra proleague playoff wins under his belt. If, for example, he had gone 4-0 instead of 2-2 in the playoffs, or his team had advanced just one more round, it would be virtually impossible to deny him the top spot - a much smaller gap than the required "beat JD again on a grand stage". Both players already accomplished the feat once, and Calm did more to push for a top spot in addition to winning an individual league versus a team tournament that, despite Fantasy's amazing performance, the Terran really only had to play 2 important games in. Of all the "hot" players in the last 2 months, Calm has delivered more consistently than Fantasy, Jaedong, Effort, Flash, and everyone else, has an individual title (MSL) to show for it, and is sporting a 67% win ratio over his last 90 games. There's no real way around it; he is closer to the #1 slot than fantasy, has the hardware and win ratio, and passed a harder test more recently.
I'm a huge Fantasy fan but Calm has been the best player in the game for the past month (and possible last 2-3 months overall), and while JD grabbed a title and is the best player overall, thus deserving the #1 slot, Calm is breathing down his neck. Fantasy is definitely not breathing down JD's neck, and that's enough of a differentiator to separate the two players.
I enjoyed this month's PR. I agree with your rankings, and I definitely enjoyed the writeups. The Stork comment made me laugh (though I do agree that he deserves to be there, considering his wins over Jaedong and Fantasy while practicing primarily by playing WoW).
I agree with Roffles concerning the CBNC format, but I think I'm just a bit lazy.
On September 01 2009 10:07 Plexa wrote: People forget that if Fantasy was on the other side of the Bacchus bracket he would have been an OSL finalist.
I really dislike this argument. To be sure, Yarnc was a huge underdog against Jaedong, and he made himself look worse with extremely poor play - apparently, he doesn't have the nerves to deal with an underdog final yet, and hopefully he'll recover better than BeSt did after getting stomped by July.
But, prior to actually playing, Yarnc was one of two or three Zergs most of us would have given a shot against Jaedong (the others being EffOrt and Calm, after their recent results). Additionally, Yarnc would probably have been favored against fantasy. Yarnc vs fantasy would have been much better than Yarnc vs type-b, but I don't think you can automatically say fantasy would have won.
Plus if Bisu had been on that side of the bracket he would have been an OSL finalist. Oh yes. What now?
(Okay, he wouldn't have, it's Bisu in the OSL. But you get my point.)
On September 01 2009 10:38 riptide wrote: I wake up, and as predicted there is already a tempest in a teacup regarding Fantasy. Plexa has beaten me to the punch here, but let me expand a little on what he said. I'm aware that each PR writer brings a different formula to the table, and mine is this - a player is placed on the rank according to how well he/she has done that month. Now how well to me at least means a lot more than just podium places. Granted, getting 1st, 2nd or 3rd in a major tourney does matter, but to me, it's more a case of how he or she got there. In Starcraft, the end does not justify the means, or Yarnc for example would be much further up the list.
Re: Fantasy sux!?????? - If you have noticed, practically the entire #2 entry talks about the Proleague finals. I am fully aware of his OSL and WCG performance. I am also aware however that in PL finals he gave us what was probably one of the most entertaining games of the season by taking down the best player in the world in his prime, on one of Starcraft's biggest stages. Now, if you guys want to go and weigh that over some WCG losses, go ahead, but in doing so, at least see how someone else might not.
Re: Calm #2!1111oneoneone - I'll take this far more seriously than Bisu for #2, but still, Calm's play, though exquisite, is just a tad below the SKT Terran this month for one reason, and one reason only. As I've already said in the #3 Rank, this guy really should be at #2 this month, and if not for the Proleague finals, he would be. Yes, Calm did take down JD in a bo5, something which Fantasy did not manage to do. In saying that though, you're forgetting that the SKT Terran did take down Jaedong just days earlier on a larger stage, under a lot more pressure. Further, while Calm's play was certainly inspired, it was definitely not in the same league as Fantasy's ace match proxy rax. Perhaps this is more due to lack of opportunity than a lack of ability, but it must be noted, Calm's play this month dropped at least a little short of what we saw from the Terran in the PL finals.
Re: Bisu #2!!!111oneoneone - Seriously guys? Bisu at #2? Did you watch him vs Iris? As I've said in his placement spot, realistically, if not for his destruction of WCG Korea, and the dispatch of our #5 in the process, Bisu would be hard pressed to find a spot on this month's PR. There is no way he's going higher than that this month, the other three contenders are just far too strong. If he had won that series against Iris it would have been a different story, but even giving allowance for his win against Flash/Stork in WCG, there's no way he can hit the top 3 all of who played really, really well in really big games. If Bisu had made any high profile encounters in August it may have been a different story, but thanks to his loss to Iris, he didn't. Sorry, but asking for a #3 spot based on his WCG performance is weak at best.
To sum up, is Fantasy the #2 player in the world right now? Although his WCG performance may nudge the slider towards no, the superior play he exhibited in the PL Finals clearly puts him back in #2 easily. Just go and watch his PL Finals games vs Jaedong and tell me that that isn't some of the best Starcraft you have seen all month.
Ultimately, I approach the PR like I approach Starcraft. Raw results are nice, and taking down big names should raise eyebrows. In the end though, the PR has and always will be a rank of how good a player is, and in analysing that, sometimes it's necessary to go beyond a win/loss ratio in a certain month and see how someone played and not merely stop at how many wins he or she got. Sometimes, in Broodwar, a picturesque journey can far outweigh many high profile destinations, and that's what this PR is all about.
hi riptide , i want to start my post with telling you great and good things . i really liked your comments and your arguments about your PR . your PR is not so bad , its still your opinion . i just want to thanks you for your great job and passion . please dont listen to poor people saying JWD was better . you are not behind him , just different . your way you see SC is different . your passion is different . we can enjoy your writes as much as the JWD ones . keep it going !!
i would like to answer about your opinion of fantasy .
fantasy is a really really good player , as you said , he showed one of the biggest moment of SC ever . his games at PL finals against JD and hiya was AMAZING . his game vs hiya just blowed me . he is in the top of SC without a doubt . he has the strengh to beat everyone on earth , he scares me everymatch he plays against the players i love . fantasy is respectable . but you must not forget a few things . fantasy is an unexperimented player compare to bisu , jaedong or calm . the way he lost to jaedong in OSL semis was really really pathetic . and i think many people will agree with this . he just gave some questions about his PL wins . the ace match was a boxer build , a boxer idea , a boxer strat . boxer will be forever the smartest player ever . he knew he had to make someone play his strat and not himself to cheat jaedong . fantasy is just NOTHING without boxer and oov . and his august's loss showed he needs experience and solid . he ALMOST lost to kal , i watched this game in live and i can say he really deserved to lose . he get OVERRAPED by stork in a new pathetic way . his wins over jaedong in PL finals are his ONLY performance this month .
when calm won jaedong and kwanro in BIG zvz series after have done some great july month , and when bisu detroyed perfectman , luxury , stork and flash in BIG games , you just cant put fantasy higher than them .
if bisu would have missed his WCG , then yes ok bisu should be lower . if calm would have lost his MSL finals , then yes he should be lower . but calm won 3 1 in one of the best zvz series i have ever watched and bisu just CRUSHED the WCG .
you just cant give fantasy so high rank , its just unfair . i agree PL is more important than OSL and MSL , but its not everything . OSL MSL and WCG are big stages too , and you can not ignore them .
the first 4 spots are unchangable and clear 1 jaedong 2 bisu 3 calm 4 fantasy
the others spots are hard to choose i guess , but the first 4 are CLEAR and CLEAR
Great rank riptide - its the mark of a good PR that even if you disagree with some of the picks, the detail and persuasiveness in the justifications make you completely understand why they were made.
On September 01 2009 10:07 Plexa wrote: People forget that if Fantasy was on the other side of the Bacchus bracket he would have been an OSL finalist.
I really dislike this argument. To be sure, Yarnc was a huge underdog against Jaedong, and he made himself look worse with extremely poor play - apparently, he doesn't have the nerves to deal with an underdog final yet, and hopefully he'll recover better than BeSt did after getting stomped by July.
But, prior to actually playing, Yarnc was one of two or three Zergs most of us would have given a shot against Jaedong (the others being EffOrt and Calm, after their recent results). Additionally, Yarnc would probably have been favored against fantasy. Yarnc vs fantasy would have been much better than Yarnc vs type-b, but I don't think you can automatically say fantasy would have won.
Plus if Bisu had been on that side of the bracket he would have been an OSL finalist. Oh yes. What now?
(Okay, he wouldn't have, it's Bisu in the OSL. But you get my point.)
Its quite obvious when you have half of a bracket being comprised of HITE players (none of whom are really any good) that that side of the bracket is the easy bracket.
On a completely unrelated note, I dont think people realize that despite all the hype around calm, he's only really played zvz in the past month. It doesn't matter if thats his weakest matchup, because really, his series vs best wasn't convincing either. Calm getting #3 is really pushing it imo, if he hadn't have taken out Jaedong he would be struggling to break top 5 really =/
On a completely unrelated note, I dont think people realize that despite all the hype around calm, he's only really played zvz in the past month. It doesn't matter if thats his weakest matchup, because really, his series vs best wasn't convincing either. Calm getting #3 is really pushing it imo, if he hadn't have taken out Jaedong he would be struggling to break top 5 really =/
Calm is 67% in his last like 90 games, and just won an MSL against the hardest comp in the tournament... what more could he possibly do? I mean it literally, that's S-tier w/hardware to back it, no way to deny it whatsoever. I'm curious as to what more you could demand of someone for a number 2 or 3 spot, because normally that's enough for a huge consensus #1.
Had he won ANYTHING else he'd jump straight to #1 so he has to be number 2, even 3 is stretching it because he completely dominated the MSL after an entire season of excellence.
I swear, the ungrounded Fantasy hate on this form is absolutely moronic. He dominated the culmination of a year's worth of Starcraft games, with more pressure and against a better opponent than anyone on this list has ever encountered. His tank push was brilliant. For the first half of the month, he was in contention for the #1 slot, not battling it out with the champion of the most boring MSL in years or WCG Korea for a shot at 2nd fiddle. I'm a big fan of both Bisu and Calm (who is, in fact, my favorite Zerg), but their accomplishments were smaller and their failings were at the very least on-par with, Fantasy's.
On September 01 2009 11:36 Nylan wrote: I swear, the ungrounded Fantasy hate on this form is absolutely moronic. He dominated the culmination of a year's worth of Starcraft games, with more pressure and against a better opponent than anyone on this list has ever encountered. His tank push was brilliant. For the first half of the month, he was in contention for the #1 slot, not battling it out with the champion of the most boring MSL in years or WCG Korea for a shot at 2nd fiddle. I'm a big fan of both Bisu and Calm (who is, in fact, my favorite Zerg), but their accomplishments were smaller and their failings were at the very least on-par with, Fantasy's.
Look at it this way: if fantasy is generating this much hate, he must have made the big time. Although I think you're overestimating the number of people who don't like him.
On September 01 2009 11:36 Nylan wrote: I swear, the ungrounded Fantasy hate on this form is absolutely moronic. He dominated the culmination of a year's worth of Starcraft games, with more pressure and against a better opponent than anyone on this list has ever encountered. His tank push was brilliant. For the first half of the month, he was in contention for the #1 slot, not battling it out with the champion of the most boring MSL in years or WCG Korea for a shot at 2nd fiddle. I'm a big fan of both Bisu and Calm (who is, in fact, my favorite Zerg), but their accomplishments were smaller and their failings were at the very least on-par with, Fantasy's.
Aha, you have no clue. I just hope he gets the same treatment Flash has when he inevitably isn't SC's fifth sixth and seventh bonjwa like everyone expects.
you guys are right about the fantasy hate but on the other hand i'm not really sure who i favor fantasy over in a bo5 right now on the list. kwanro and iris... but then...
I really liked this Power rank, its a hard month cus a lot of important games where played but no many games (like regular proleague and Ro32 of SL). Maybe Stork a little higher and maybe Hyuk and not effort (he didnt do anything this month besides blizzcon).
On September 01 2009 12:21 o[twist] wrote: you guys are right about the fantasy hate but on the other hand i'm not really sure who i favor fantasy over in a bo5 right now on the list. kwanro and iris... but then...
The only people on the PR who I would say have an advantage over fantasy in a Bo5 are...Jaedong and Flash for sure, maybe Bisu and Stork. I'd bet Fantasy over anyone else on the PR, including Calm.
On September 01 2009 12:21 o[twist] wrote: you guys are right about the fantasy hate but on the other hand i'm not really sure who i favor fantasy over in a bo5 right now on the list. kwanro and iris... but then...
The only people on the PR who I would say have an advantage over fantasy in a Bo5 are...Jaedong and Flash for sure, maybe Bisu and Stork. I'd bet Fantasy over anyone else on the PR, including Calm.
i'm not saying i'd put a lot of money on it but i'd take that bet with bisu, stork, and calm. edit: maybe yarnc
You say it's not about medals. So looking at his performance, fantasy has lost 6 out of his last 10 games (with 2 wins v an amateur). It seems the only basis for Fantasy at 2 is his PL performance, from where he has done nothing but go down-hill since then (which contradicts the non-medals things). He barely beats Kal and gets spanked by fantasy in the worst kind of way.
If anything, PL should get the least amount of weight considering it's a team event (he didn't get all the wins himself) and considering the other factors (such as Jaedong having to prepare for multiple matchups on multiple maps and preparing for aces) while Fantasy just prepped to snipe Jaedong basically. When they were actually matched up in a head-to-head battle he got spanked by jaedong in another bo5.
Fact is, Fantasy shouldn't be number 2 based upon his performance or even your own standards. If you HAVE to have a skt player at number 2, noone would of complained about Bisu. At least that would of made sense.
Edit: BTW, out of fariness should point out I appreciate the work rip is putting into this and think the list was well-written, regardless of the one mistake mentioned above .
Of course, he didn't stop there. Rolling Hiya as expected, he built on his day one victory over his Zerg rival to deliver in the day two ace match what can only be described as a stellar performance. Showing strategy, timing and micro that has been described as Boxer-esque, the young T1 Terran went crazy on the crazy Zerg, and emerged from the booth carrying not only himself, but his entire team.
Perhaps the strategy was Boxer-esque because Boxer created it? As Fantasy himself said (if I'm remembering his interview right) many Terrans could have piloted that build to success.
On September 01 2009 14:37 On_Slaught wrote: Edit: BTW, out of fariness should point out I appreciate the work rip is putting into this and think the list was well-written, regardless of the one mistake mentioned above .
that's a mistake in your opinion, and everyone has different opinions, so...? I think that fantasy#2 is accurate, and if anyone else could've been #2, that's Calm, not Bisu. riptide has a great style of writing, and I enjoy it , although JWD's style with links was very helpful.
"Looking ahead, it's worthwhile to speculate that September could be an exciting month for Stork as we hear his Warlock is nearing Lvl 80, and the offseason is no doubt giving him plenty of time to raid with his guild."
On September 01 2009 14:31 win8282 wrote: seriously, Hyuk shoulda been the #10 this month, not Effort. Effort lost just about every big game this month. And no, blizzcon isn't a big event
What come on - why are we going nuts over STX Masters? Teams clearly didn't take it seriously and as last year (Hyuk, Frozean) showed, it's absolutely meaningless as an indicator for future success.
I do think Hyuk is better now than before, but that's not saying much. I'd rather the 10th spot be given to a rising star who has already proven his mettle than to some guy who won a couple PL games (huge, I agree) and then a lot of meaningless STX masters games.
If Bisu had been sent instead of Fantasy against JD in proleague finals, the terran wouldn't even be close to top 5, no matter what the result of those games xD
Fantasy on #2 is ridiculous since he hasnt won anything since proleague. Calms win should put him #2 and effort should be a lot higher. He won a tournament now didnt he?
Fantasy is a little weird. Yes, he was awesome in the Proleague finals... But well... Proleague finals are not BO5's. He showed brilliance in 1 game and cheese in the other. I sometimes get the feeling that Fantasy was sent to the Superace-Match over Bisu because Terran is more capable of cheesing than Protoss (and that oov/boxer play Terran).
If we look at the OSL Final series and completely disregard that he did not choke in the Proleague final... After such a series (losing to a 4 pool that he already defended, losing to a 9 pool cause of a risky/stupid build in the final game of an individual league)... People would say that Fantasy isn't champion material.
Seriously, if Yarnc would have won game 1 in his series against Jaedong and then get beaten 3 times in a row just like he did, he would have looked exactly like fantasy in the semis. Jaedong slaughtered Fantasy after game 1 and probably delivered the sweetest revenge for beating him with cheese possible .
I can't imagine Bisu getting slaughtered that way by Jaedong, I don't like Bisu but I just don't see him getting slaughtered in such a way.
Calm... Has only played ZvZ. But can you hold this against him? He had a very strong season. He was the second or third best Zerg in the proleuge (didn't check that back, I hope I remember that correct). He's beaten the 2 other Zergs that were held over him. I don't know, I don't like it when you denie people a place on the PR because they played only one Matchup which wasn't their fault at all.
Question: Where would Calm be on the PR if he beat Iris in the finals instead of Kwanro? I smell a #2.
Oh, one more thing, I liked your writing aside from one thing:
We haven't seen this combination of panache, charisma and pure, unadulterated guts in a while, and for bringing it to our screens this August.
I have seriously no idea how anyone could say something like this about Fantasy. He more looks like his *masters* puppet than a charismatic player. Atleast to me, and probably a majority of the non SKT1 fans . But well... It's not hard to be charismatic as a SC/BW Progamer, the competition isn't exactly staggering .
Stork just played well one series this month: vs Jaedong. And I think JD should have won if it wasn't for the FA thing that stoped him from practicing. So i don't at all agree with the fanboys thinking that Stork should have gotten a higher rank.
I do think though that Effort deserves to go up one step (or two), notably after what he did in proleague. But I might be confusing August with September.
Wtf why is fantasy number 2? after pl finals he failed in osl and failed in wcg against a protoss, i thought everyone hailed fantasy as the revoultionist tvp player? flash won a sl and that gets overlooked weird pr, all the players diserve to be there but the order is really wrong :|
On September 01 2009 17:08 Elroi wrote: Stork just played well one series this month: vs Jaedong. And I think JD should have won if it wasn't for the FA thing that stoped him from practicing. So i don't at all agree with the fanboys thinking that Stork should have gotten a higher rank.
I do think though that Effort deserves to go up one step (or two), notably after what he did in proleague. But I might be confusing August with September.
Fantasy is a little weird. Yes, he was awesome in the Proleague finals... But well... Proleague finals are not BO5's. He showed brilliance in 1 game and cheese in the other. I sometimes get the feeling that Fantasy was sent to the Superace-Match over Bisu because Terran is more capable of cheesing than Protoss (and that oov/boxer play Terran).
I think you are wrong for many reasons: 1. Fantsy is known for being one of the smartest bo 5 players ever. This is a fact, if you need a reference I say go ask Artosis..
2. Bisu cheeses as often and as successfully as Fantsy, but I have to admit that it is mostly in PvT.
As billions of babbling fans bicker and beg for the B word to be used, I'm just here to tactfully avoid that discussion but say that JD, having borne the brunt of many beatings, is now by and large back and ready to bashfully agree that the baton is still very much in his possession.
On September 01 2009 17:08 Elroi wrote: Stork just played well one series this month: vs Jaedong. And I think JD should have won if it wasn't for the FA thing that stoped him from practicing. So i don't at all agree with the fanboys thinking that Stork should have gotten a higher rank.
I do think though that Effort deserves to go up one step (or two), notably after what he did in proleague. But I might be confusing August with September.
you forgetting about stork stomping on fantasy...
He didnt say anything wrong, Stork didnt practice properly for Upamgic or Fantasy. 0 Practice for upmagic, and offrace practice vs fantasy with 0 games as toss, he didnt even practice his own builds.
On September 01 2009 14:37 On_Slaught wrote: You say it's not about medals. So looking at his performance, fantasy has lost 6 out of his last 10 games (with 2 wins v an amateur). It seems the only basis for Fantasy at 2 is his PL performance, from where he has done nothing but go down-hill since then (which contradicts the non-medals things). He barely beats Kal and gets spanked by fantasy in the worst kind of way.
If anything, PL should get the least amount of weight considering it's a team event (he didn't get all the wins himself) and considering the other factors (such as Jaedong having to prepare for multiple matchups on multiple maps and preparing for aces) while Fantasy just prepped to snipe Jaedong basically. When they were actually matched up in a head-to-head battle he got spanked by jaedong in another bo5.
Fact is, Fantasy shouldn't be number 2 based upon his performance or even your own standards. If you HAVE to have a skt player at number 2, noone would of complained about Bisu. At least that would of made sense.
Edit: BTW, out of fariness should point out I appreciate the work rip is putting into this and think the list was well-written, regardless of the one mistake mentioned above .
Well, thank goodness this isn't the last-ten-games Power Ranking and that this is actually the September Power Rank. Fantasy played more than 10 games in August - and he went 3-3 with Jaedong over the course of the month. They traded cheeses, and played 3 reasonable games and well, fantasy just collapsed in Game 4 of the semis. 3-3 again Jaedong, who is by far the best player in the world, and bringing him within mortal reach is a huge accomplishment which is easily overlooked since that was right at the start of the month. In addition to drawing even with Jaedong, he fared admirably in WCG and his game against Stork on outsider was amazing. So yea, he did tail off a bit towards the end of the month, but realistically the only player that was anywhere near consistent in August was Jaedong - everyone else was inconsistent (even Bisu)
Fantasy's entire claim to fame this month is beating Jaedong in two matches on the same map, when Fantasy could practice continuously for those two matches (and Hiya) while Jaedong had to practice for SEVEN (and Hyuk). Bisu/Jaedong/Stork all slaughtered him in a recent BoX. Fantasy should probably be above Stork for the pre-August results that got him #2 on the previous PR, but... above Bisu? That's crazy-talk.
This powerrank is excellent. The explanations are good, all the players are good, and the cbnc players deserve their spot. Unfortunately, some people fail to understand that second place for Fantasy is a bit of a personal opinion. I would have put Bisu and Stork above Calm, but that's only because I don't like the Brainy zerg at all. Putting Fantasy on #2 has a good explanation, and given the fact that Fantasy was competitive with superb starcraft even in his loser games, plus the fact that he was MVP in the most important series of the year, that is the proleague finals, in addition to everyone playing few games and being inconsistent, I'd say that it is only personal, subjective opinion that could argue that Fantasy does not deserve second spot.
And to get back on Clam: He won against Effort when he was in a slump, he won against Jaedong after LJD lost in the proleague finals and one day before the infinitely more important OSL semi final, and then he won 3-1 against Kwanro, a mediocre zvz player. Sure he's good, but he is also damn lucky in my humble opinion.
Still given that he did win an MSL and won against Jaedong I can understand that anyone could rate his performance different. What I don't understand is that many posters above and probably below me as well can't comprehend that a rating of performance is always gonna be a personal matter.
On September 01 2009 20:00 MisteR wrote: This powerrank is excellent. The explanations are good, all the players are good, and the cbnc players deserve their spot. Unfortunately, some people fail to understand that second place for Fantasy is a bit of a personal opinion. I would have put Bisu and Stork above Calm, but that's only because I don't like the Brainy zerg at all. Putting Fantasy on #2 has a good explanation, and given the fact that Fantasy was competitive with superb starcraft even in his loser games, plus the fact that he was MVP in the most important series of the year, that is the proleague finals, in addition to everyone playing few games and being inconsistent, I'd say that it is only personal, subjective opinion that could argue that Fantasy does not deserve second spot.
And to get back on Clam: He won against Effort when he was in a slump, he won against Jaedong after LJD lost in the proleague finals and one day before the infinitely more important OSL semi final, and then he won 3-1 against Kwanro, a mediocre zvz player. Sure he's good, but he is also damn lucky in my humble opinion.
Still given that he did win an MSL and won against Jaedong I can understand that anyone could rate his performance different. What I don't understand is that many posters above and probably below me as well can't comprehend that a rating of performance is always gonna be a personal matter.
So your saying if idra gets played in pl next season and goes 1-7 in the first month but played superb sc we can put him at no.7 in power rank? your reasoning is flawed dude
Kwanro actually did a 5pool, not a 4pool in game 1 against calm and I don't think he's ever been on the power rank before. (referring to "All in all though, August has been a good month for this little dude, and from nowhere he jumps back onto the PR at #7.")
I really enjoyed your writing and I got a laugh out of "flash in the pan" when describing fantasy. ("Call him the Hope of Terran, or a flash in the pan, call him what you like.") I'm glad that you look at results, not at statistics like many people seem to do. Also, you give credit where credit is due, even if the proleague finals (unquestionably the most important tournament) happened early in the month and everyone's already forgotten about it due to all of the individual leagues that's happened since.
Also, not to excuse Jaedong's loss or to diminish Calm's win but Jaedong said he didn't practice as much for MSL as he did OSL. They were on back to back days and I'm sure that Jaedong was much hungrier for an OSL win (revenge against fantasy + golden mouse) than he was for an MSL win.
Thanks for those two corrections. Just dropped them in.
Regarding the other comments that have been made since I posted last, I don't really see a lot to rebut. I have already outlined my reasons for ordering the top four as I have done, and no one has really said anything new. I'm sure some interesting arguments are to come though, so will definitely keep my eyes peeled.
On September 01 2009 21:37 Karmosin wrote: Seems like Jae goes more on rep here than actual effort this month >->
he went 3-1 against #2 and 3-0 against #9 to win a golden mouse, becoming only the third person to do so - the other two are starcraft legends and so is he
For me, this time noone deserved #1. JD failed hard in PL finals and got beaten by Calm. Bisu threw away win vs Iris. Fantasy... survived critical Jaedong's 5pool and then collapsed. Actually, Calm was the most consistent player this month, but since he had only MSL to play, this is not enough for first spot.
well.... i personally think calm showed a stronger month than fantasy. fantasy had 1 game with a bad start and a brilliant finish and 1 game with a good execution of a superior build invited by someone else. besides that fantasy pretty much failed this month. with that risky rush jd gave him the opportunity to take an easy game and lead in their bo5, but fantasy blew it by a super-stupid mistake. seriously, when i watched that game live i was like "hmm... he really should keep some scvs close to the bunker, just in case. if he survives this he´s got it in the bag, no matter what. so why go risky?". after i had finished this thought i saw the lings streaming in from 2 different sides and was like "wtf" and "damn, i told u!" at once.
imho fantasy should even be #4, behind bisu. bisu´s loss to iris was by a razor-thin margin and besides this, he didnt show any real weakness this month. what really bites him in the ass for this months PR is that he is the superior player on an overstacked, superior team. he didnt have an opportunity to show his skills on the biggest stage, the pl grand finals, because his team was so strong that they didnt even need him. is bisu to blame for being used as their teams "end boss" and for their opponent not even making it to the "end boss"? that the skt coach decided to send fantasy on neo medusa and bisu on destination, although medusa is bisus playground and destination is t>>z-favoured, clearly shows who is the more reliable and clutch player. in fact i would credit 5-10% of fantasys bunker rush win over jd to fantasy knowing that even if he fails there is still an equally strong, if not even stronger, teammate to finish the series.
to me its obvious that the PR should look like this:
On September 01 2009 23:54 Piste wrote: 1.bisu 2.fantasy 3.jaedong 4.calm 5.flash 6.kwanro 7.iris 8.hyuk 9.stork 10.effort
people REALLY need to stop imagining that Hyuk deserves to be on this PR at all, let alone above #10. in STX masters, Oz didn't even use BackHo, HiYa or Lomo, let alone Jaedong, T1 relied on their powerful trio of Hyuk, S2 and Mong... what more do people need to show them that no one cares about STX Masters?
CBNC is clearly where Hyuk belongs for this month. 1 game from Jaedong and an all kill in the B-team league are a step in the right direction, but are not nearly enough to convince me that Hyuk will ever be more than a mediocre Zerg with a few good days in the office this month.
And lol @ no Yarnc. 2nd in the OSL is a big accomplishment no matter how you slice it. Not putting him in top 10 would be a disservice to the PR.
Totally unrelated to this month's PR, sort of, but I was scrolling through old PRs and found this gem:
"After his uninspired performances against GGPlay and Stork, one might have thought that Flash was nothing but hype. I, for one, don’t think much of his late-game management—or even his mid-game management. But given Flash’s age and the fact that he just cruised into both Starleagues, he deserves a low slot in the Power Rank." - 2007/08
On September 02 2009 02:11 Musoeun wrote: Totally unrelated to this month's PR, sort of, but I was scrolling through old PRs and found this gem:
"After his uninspired performances against GGPlay and Stork, one might have thought that Flash was nothing but hype. I, for one, don’t think much of his late-game management—or even his mid-game management. But given Flash’s age and the fact that he just cruised into both Starleagues, he deserves a low slot in the Power Rank." - 2007/08
Amazing how things change.
Well, there was a reason he was called the cheddar terran.... back in the day.
riptide's articles are pretty good, with just a little too much cliche in them, but his power ranking and this was just worse. i didn't like the acronym "CBNC" which is a phrase nobody really knew, and the power rank is whack man there are so many players there that are undeserving of their current PR position
On September 01 2009 23:54 Piste wrote: 1.bisu 2.fantasy 3.jaedong 4.calm 5.flash 6.kwanro 7.iris 8.hyuk 9.stork 10.effort
people REALLY need to stop imagining that Hyuk deserves to be on this PR at all, let alone above #10. in STX masters, Oz didn't even use BackHo, HiYa or Lomo, let alone Jaedong, T1 relied on their powerful trio of Hyuk, S2 and Mong... what more do people need to show them that no one cares about STX Masters?
CBNC is clearly where Hyuk belongs for this month. 1 game from Jaedong and an all kill in the B-team league are a step in the right direction, but are not nearly enough to convince me that Hyuk will ever be more than a mediocre Zerg with a few good days in the office this month.
And lol @ no Yarnc. 2nd in the OSL is a big accomplishment no matter how you slice it. Not putting him in top 10 would be a disservice to the PR.
Well stx did send out their star lineup (besides calm, but he was preparing for msl finals) hyuk shouldn't have gotten past hwasin, never mind an all-kill. But winning in the stx finals doesn't make him close to being worthy of effort's spot.
On September 02 2009 04:28 Nal_rAwr wrote: riptide's articles are pretty good, with just a little too much cliche in them, but his power ranking and this was just worse. i didn't like the acronym "CBNC" which is a phrase nobody really knew, and the power rank is whack man there are so many players there that are undeserving of their current PR position
lolololol seriously? Close but no cigar has been used since fakesteve wrote the power rank and maybe even earlier. Don't just type out whatever comes to your mind and then press post. At least take the effort to pick out each choice that you disagree with and make a solid argument for why you think riptide is wrong. He won't change the rank for you, but he will take your arguments into consideration and reply. "the power rank is whack man there are so many players there that are undeserving of their current PR position" isn't really a great argument.
On September 02 2009 02:11 Musoeun wrote: Totally unrelated to this month's PR, sort of, but I was scrolling through old PRs and found this gem:
"After his uninspired performances against GGPlay and Stork, one might have thought that Flash was nothing but hype. I, for one, don’t think much of his late-game management—or even his mid-game management. But given Flash’s age and the fact that he just cruised into both Starleagues, he deserves a low slot in the Power Rank." - 2007/08
Amazing how things change.
There are some classics in the PR. For instance, amazingly enough Jangbi made a PR before Stork (not saying it was wrong for this to happen, just surprising), and some other things you wouldn't expect.
On September 02 2009 02:11 Musoeun wrote: Totally unrelated to this month's PR, sort of, but I was scrolling through old PRs and found this gem:
"After his uninspired performances against GGPlay and Stork, one might have thought that Flash was nothing but hype. I, for one, don’t think much of his late-game management—or even his mid-game management. But given Flash’s age and the fact that he just cruised into both Starleagues, he deserves a low slot in the Power Rank." - 2007/08
Amazing how things change.
Haha, yeah, I was just looking at that yesterday. Crazy how much that's changed. Now Flash pretty much turns on God-mode if the opponent (or a factory rally point lolololololo) doesn't cripple him in the early/early-mid game.
Combine that with the amount of PRs where protoss takes up 3-4 of the rank and you'll find that the majority of the PRs have a fair to unfair representation of protoss. The only race that really dominates PR, outside of the six dragons/taekbang era, is Terran and that's because there's ALWAYS been a heavy number of good to great terrans.
Hell I think Zerg is the most unrepresented. Except for very recently, the only Zergs who've been on the PRs were Jaedong and the Twins, and even the Twins weren't around very much. I think July made a couple guest appearances during his third OSL run.
On September 01 2009 00:10 riptide wrote: We haven't seen this combination of panache, charisma and pure, unadulterated guts in a while, and for bringing it to our screens this August, Fantasy is #2.
i honestly don't see how fantasy has any more charisma than the average progamer. Also, there's a difference between using your coach's cheese strats and having guts
sure fantasy is a top player, but he did got stomped in every individual league this month. 1 nice game and 1 successful cheese in PL should not make him no.2
It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
Just in the past year or so we've gone through a period of Zerg dominance (now, led by Jaedong), Protoss dominance (8-9 months ago, the six Dragons era) and Terran dominance (led by Flash's innovations to TvP, a little over a year ago).
The Swarm Season won't last forever, the metagame will shift again...hopefully soon, because ZvZ is ZzZzZzzzzzzzzzz
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
Just in the past year or so we've gone through a period of Zerg dominance (now, led by Jaedong), Protoss dominance (8-9 months ago, the six Dragons era) and Terran dominance (led by Flash's innovations to TvP, a little over a year ago).
The Swarm Season won't last forever, the metagame will shift again...hopefully soon, because ZvZ is ZzZzZzzzzzzzzzz
Flash's time to shine was probably the worst time in history to be a terran because Jangbi, Stork, Bisu and Best ate every terran not named Flash alive, and maps like Katrina, Destination and Medusa 1.0 were around, which completely crushed every terran not named Flash.
That aside, Terrans have 3 bonjwas and like 6 years of dominance so no tears shed here.
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
Just in the past year or so we've gone through a period of Zerg dominance (now, led by Jaedong), Protoss dominance (8-9 months ago, the six Dragons era) and Terran dominance (led by Flash's innovations to TvP, a little over a year ago).
The Swarm Season won't last forever, the metagame will shift again...hopefully soon, because ZvZ is ZzZzZzzzzzzzzzz
Flash's time to shine was probably the worst time in history to be a terran because Jangbi, Stork, Bisu and Best ate every terran not named Flash alive, and maps like Katrina, Destination and Medusa 1.0 were around, which completely crushed every terran not named Flash.
That aside, Terrans have 3 bonjwas and like 6 years of dominance so no tears shed here.
According to new maps, terran age is incoming, sweet times for FlaSh's fan
We haven't seen them play out. Everyone (including me) thought HBR was going to play out as Protoss's new Katrina in theorycrafting, but Zergs figured it out and took a 70% loss rate and turned it into a +55% winrate. The PL maps are looking pretty Terran-y at a glance, though.
On September 02 2009 16:00 TwoToneTerran wrote: We haven't seen them play out. Everyone (including me) thought HBR was going to play out as Protoss's new Katrina in theorycrafting, but Zergs figured it out and took a 70% loss rate and turned it into a +55% winrate. The PL maps are looking pretty Terran-y at a glance, though.
yep, i was watching when ret was testing them, didn't like some of them because of the narrow chokes
FA News - JWD declines contract and retires amidst a collective shout of anguish It's with a tinge of sadness that we bid adieu to JWD, destroyer of PR and writing team Ace. While LJD retiring would have sent many of you into a downward spiral of depression, I maintain that JWD's retirement is far more detrimental to TL ESPORTS in general.
I was wtfing for 5 minutes thinking it was Lee Jaedong who dropped his just-signed contract with oz to retire ... Damn ... Got me right there ...
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
Protoss tends to do fine even when other races are dominating, even if it is usually just a handful of PRotoss keeping the race alive, there always seems to be that few around that will win tittles and put up fights, regardless of it being a Terran or Zerg age.
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
As Artosis said, Starcraft is not perfectly balanced game but is balanced enough to overcome the other race with enough practice. I fully agree that SC history had too much T dominance. Savior + JD (maybe July) gave Zergs some breathing room and Bisu/Ra/Stork saved the Toss race from utter destruction
I'm sorry but I cannot see Fantasy as a charismatic player. Yes, I dislike Fantasy alot, but even without my bias, he is a very awkward person imo.
Charisma is this unspoken beauty you find in a person. It makes you admire them for who they are, and they always seem to be confident, and good at everything. I think Charisma really lacks in a scene like progaming where kids are forced to play computer games all day, missing out on all the social interaction + life lessons they could be learning outside of games.
But if I did have to call a few SC players as charismatic, I can only think of Boxer, Savior, Reach. Not even Jaedong or Bisu who seems to be at the top nowadays seem charismatic. Jaedong is getting there slowly but still seems to be growing up. Bisu has his looks advantage but he is awkward too imo.
Fantasy is like a puppet of Oov. Even if that was not the case, that is the kind of image that he is sending when he has to consult with Oov after every little game in a BO series, or when Oov makes his builds. Even the way he talks is very awkward and he says the weirdest things sometimes (watch the interview right when he loses from OSL finals against JD)
[QUOTE]On September 02 2009 09:41 iamho wrote: [QUOTE]On September 01 2009 00:10 riptide wrote: sure fantasy is a top player, but he did got stomped in every individual league this month. 1 nice game and 1 successful cheese in PL should not make him no.2[/QUOTE] Jeadong is also a top player but he did got stomped in every league this month except the OSL of course. Guess what? He is still the undisputed number 1 in PR.
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
On September 03 2009 00:48 AzureEye wrote: I'm sorry but I cannot see Fantasy as a charismatic player. Yes, I dislike Fantasy alot, but even without my bias, he is a very awkward person imo.
Charisma is this unspoken beauty you find in a person. It makes you admire them for who they are, and they always seem to be confident, and good at everything. I think Charisma really lacks in a scene like progaming where kids are forced to play computer games all day, missing out on all the social interaction + life lessons they could be learning outside of games.
But if I did have to call a few SC players as charismatic, I can only think of Boxer, Savior, Reach. Not even Jaedong or Bisu who seems to be at the top nowadays seem charismatic. Jaedong is getting there slowly but still seems to be growing up. Bisu has his looks advantage but he is awkward too imo.
Fantasy is like a puppet of Oov. Even if that was not the case, that is the kind of image that he is sending when he has to consult with Oov after every little game in a BO series, or when Oov makes his builds. Even the way he talks is very awkward and he says the weirdest things sometimes (watch the interview right when he loses from OSL finals against JD)
I'd add one to your list: YellOw. Sure he came in second a bunch, but he's not called the Storm Zerg for nothing.
Among modern players, Jaedong and Bisu are the only really successful ones I'd consider close to charismatic. Flash and Jangbi are too quiet; fantasy, Stork, BeSt, and Calm all seem to have the nerdy image going on. EffOrt has the CJ face, but not the Maestro's presence. There are a couple others who come close when they're playing well: S-class Hwasin (which we haven't seen in forever) comes to mind, and Luxury will sometimes achieve that level of total dominance in a game.
If I had to pick one charismatic player in the modern age, it would be sKyHigh. When I step back and consider, I don't really like him, but when he plays I find myself rooting for him every time. However, he doesn't really have the level of results yet - not even Reach-level - to enter into the discussion seriously.
On September 01 2009 06:21 Hinanawi wrote: I like this month's rank, far more accurate than last month's.
fantasy at #2 looks weird at first, but if you think about it, that's really only because we tend to prioritize games at the END of August (where he wasn't looking so hot) over games at the BEGINNING of August (where he was on fire). I probably would've put him at #3 and Calm at #2, but no big deal.
The rest of it looks good. I'm really disappointed in EffOrt, he looked completely helpless against Flash, getting thoroughly and overwhelmingly smacked down by both bio (Game 1) and mech (Game 2). Hopefully he picks up his play for the sake of CJ's ace needs.
Spoiler! In all seriousness, glad that Flash and Stork are back.
Fantasy delivering twice vs Jaedong probably explains his position, although putting Bisu above him would make a tad more sense. Imho I would put Stork above kwanro but given the PvZ that Stork got in the OSL and PL ace he probably deserves his rank for the inconsistency =p
edit: i like how Stork uses his ~220 apm and make protoss look so imba at that S-class progamer level, especially when he decides to take the game seriously (which fans hope to see instead of the several times he throws the game to random mistakes)
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
It's only difficult because Protoss players get all the girls.
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:
On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
Even if bisu got his OSL, no one but the rabid Bisu fans would dare to call him anything like a bonjwa.
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:
On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
Real problem is that aside from Bisu/Stork, the Protoss race lacks any consistency whatsoever. Many players have real major flaws in their game. And you forget EVER, where Best got absolutely smashed by July. And Batoo was also a TvZ with JD/Fantasy, as well as GOM Season 1 (JD/Flash).
Protoss doesn't seem to have problems getting to the finals. But aside from Bisu, they all have issues winning in the finals. Kal/Best/Jangbi/Stork all failed miserably in the finals, aside from Stork's lone OSL win over Fantasy.
On September 03 2009 05:26 luckybeni2 wrote: That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
It's pretty much settled, the time of the bonjwas is over. Bisu is not "one title away from being a bonjwa", especially when Jaedong is doing so much better than everyone else. Protoss had a decent period of dominance before this season came along with its zerg-favored maps. But right now, any pro can beat any pro, as we saw many times in the proleague post season. It's all a matter of the mental game and who can handle the pressure the best. If you can't play on tv like you can in practice, it comes out to nothing in the end.
On September 03 2009 00:48 AzureEye wrote: I'm sorry but I cannot see Fantasy as a charismatic player. Yes, I dislike Fantasy alot, but even without my bias, he is a very awkward person imo.
Charisma is this unspoken beauty you find in a person. It makes you admire them for who they are, and they always seem to be confident, and good at everything. I think Charisma really lacks in a scene like progaming where kids are forced to play computer games all day, missing out on all the social interaction + life lessons they could be learning outside of games.
But if I did have to call a few SC players as charismatic, I can only think of Boxer, Savior, Reach. Not even Jaedong or Bisu who seems to be at the top nowadays seem charismatic. Jaedong is getting there slowly but still seems to be growing up. Bisu has his looks advantage but he is awkward too imo.
Fantasy is like a puppet of Oov. Even if that was not the case, that is the kind of image that he is sending when he has to consult with Oov after every little game in a BO series, or when Oov makes his builds. Even the way he talks is very awkward and he says the weirdest things sometimes (watch the interview right when he loses from OSL finals against JD)
I'd add one to your list: YellOw. Sure he came in second a bunch, but he's not called the Storm Zerg for nothing.
Among modern players, Jaedong and Bisu are the only really successful ones I'd consider close to charismatic. Flash and Jangbi are too quiet; fantasy, Stork, BeSt, and Calm all seem to have the nerdy image going on. EffOrt has the CJ face, but not the Maestro's presence. There are a couple others who come close when they're playing well: S-class Hwasin (which we haven't seen in forever) comes to mind, and Luxury will sometimes achieve that level of total dominance in a game.
If I had to pick one charismatic player in the modern age, it would be sKyHigh. When I step back and consider, I don't really like him, but when he plays I find myself rooting for him every time. However, he doesn't really have the level of results yet - not even Reach-level - to enter into the discussion seriously.
Kwanro is the worst. I hate when he wins because he's just so boring. He gives short and unoriginal answers. But Flash is still very young, I'm sure he will grow out of it.
[QUOTE]On September 03 2009 01:18 geod wrote: [QUOTE]On September 02 2009 09:41 iamho wrote: [QUOTE]On September 01 2009 00:10 riptide wrote: sure fantasy is a top player, but he did got stomped in every individual league this month. 1 nice game and 1 successful cheese in PL should not make him no.2[/QUOTE] Jeadong is also a top player but he did got stomped in every league this month except the OSL of course. Guess what? He is still the undisputed number 1 in PR. [/QUOTE]
he lost out of gom last month; he had one loss in the ro4 to calm and one title win. he didn't get "stomped" like fantasy
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:
On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:
On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
Your reason is flawed dude. So, if according to your "Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa" theory is true, then I guess that would make Jaedong bonjwa since he has one more title than Bisu? I think most people would disagree on that...
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:
On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
Your reason is flawed dude. So, if according to your "Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa" theory is true, then I guess that would make Jaedong bonjwa since he has one more title than Bisu? I think most people would disagree on that...
also, 3OSL > 3MSL. ok anything else ? nothing interesting this month
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:
On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
Your reason is flawed dude. So, if according to your "Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa" theory is true, then I guess that would make Jaedong bonjwa since he has one more title than Bisu? I think most people would disagree on that...
also, 3OSL > 3MSL. ok anything else ? nothing interesting this month
The largest gap in between Kespa #1 and #2 in the history of Starcraft?
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:
On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
Your reason is flawed dude. So, if according to your "Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa" theory is true, then I guess that would make Jaedong bonjwa since he has one more title than Bisu? I think most people would disagree on that...
also, 3OSL > 3MSL. ok anything else ? nothing interesting this month
The largest gap in between Kespa #1 and #2 in the history of Starcraft?
he lost out of gom last month; he had one loss in the ro4 to calm and one title win. he didn't get "stomped" like fantasy
I see you decided to omit his most glaring loss of this year...which was delivered by no less than Fantasy.
On September 03 2009 10:46 ghostWriter wrote:
It's pretty much settled, the time of the bonjwas is over. Bisu is not "one title away from being a bonjwa", especially when Jaedong is doing so much better than everyone else. Protoss had a decent period of dominance before this season came along with its zerg-favored maps. But right now, any pro can beat any pro, as we saw many times in the proleague post season. It's all a matter of the mental game and who can handle the pressure the best. If you can't play on tv like you can in practice, it comes out to nothing in the end.
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:
On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
Your reason is flawed dude. So, if according to your "Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa" theory is true, then I guess that would make Jaedong bonjwa since he has one more title than Bisu? I think most people would disagree on that...
also, 3OSL > 3MSL. ok anything else ? nothing interesting this month
The largest gap in between Kespa #1 and #2 in the history of Starcraft?
most likely
Yeah, it is. (both percentage wise, ~55%, and point wise). I believe the second highest lead first place ever had over second place was Nada sometime in 2002 (41%). Before this month, Nada held the top three differences over second place. I believe Jaedong's lead over third place is the fourth largest percentage-wise in the history of KESPA.
Despite that I love the way in which this Power Rank was written this month, Riptide, I feel that Fantasy should be third and Calm should be second, weighing the WCG and OSL losses a little bit more than the Proleague wins. I can't really argue too vehemently on this point, however, because you were very consistent on not weighing WCG in too much.
I've read your rebuttal to those with similar opinions and it's a matter of weighing the games he played at the beginning of the month with those he played at the end. Every single PR writer before had weighed the most recent games above those which were more distant, if only because they were clearer in his mind, but you, surprisingly, didn't do that which makes me like this Power Rank for the MONTH more. When other players have a very strong week at the end of the week and an abysmal performance at the beginning of the month, one that outweighs the later wins, (or vice versa) I'll except the same treatment with them in coming Power Ranks. ^^
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:
On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
Your reason is flawed dude. So, if according to your "Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa" theory is true, then I guess that would make Jaedong bonjwa since he has one more title than Bisu? I think most people would disagree on that...
also, 3OSL > 3MSL. ok anything else ? nothing interesting this month
The largest gap in between Kespa #1 and #2 in the history of Starcraft?
most likely
Meh, kespa rank is really bad way to represent player skill. Of all the reasons you could have picked you chose the worst one :p.
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:
On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
Your reason is flawed dude. So, if according to your "Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa" theory is true, then I guess that would make Jaedong bonjwa since he has one more title than Bisu? I think most people would disagree on that...
also, 3OSL > 3MSL. ok anything else ? nothing interesting this month
The largest gap in between Kespa #1 and #2 in the history of Starcraft?
most likely
Meh, kespa rank is really bad way to represent player skill. Of all the reasons you could have picked you chose the worst one :p.
Kespa rank was one of the arguments used to block Jaedong-Bonjwa talk. ELO looks like a better ranking until you notice it currently holds Bisu > Flash > Jaedong.
1) jaedong : undisputed 2) Fantasy : showed really good games going toe to toe with the best 3) Bisu : i feel that if the MSL finals were Bisu vs Calm, Bisu would win. 4) Calm : Not trying to steal Calm's thunder, but his MSL opponent WAS Kwanro. 5) Flash : kicks ass. 6) Yarnc : Makes the OSL ro2. c'mon 7) Iris : beat Bisu. ] 8) Stork : WCG finalist 9) Kwanro : made MSL finals 10) Effort : still kicks ass
Gotta agree with what seems to be the general consensus... Fantasy a little too high. I saw that WCG set vs. Stork and Fantasy just got schooled. Game 1 Stork recovered from losing his 12 Nexus to a bunker rush... one of the better games of the tournament actually.
On September 04 2009 12:03 o[twist] wrote: meh stork always loses his 12nex, always recovers. dunno how or why
As long as you save the probes and they some mining, it's about even as not putting it down.
You'll be a bit behind in tech, but toss can recover from that because terran push timing is off because of marine + SCV + bunker push. Marine mins + lost SCV mining + bunker mins could've gone towards earlier fac aggro or faster CC.
On September 04 2009 12:03 o[twist] wrote: meh stork always loses his 12nex, always recovers. dunno how or why
As long as you save the probes and they some mining, it's about even as not putting it down.
You'll be a bit behind in tech, but toss can recover from that because terran push timing is off because of marine + SCV + bunker push. Marine mins + lost SCV mining + bunker mins could've gone towards earlier fac aggro or faster CC.
true, but terran still has the bunker and the scvs and the marines. it seems like there has to be some advantage.
Bunkers and marines are completely useless without backup against ranged goons. There's a high win ratio when Protoss loses their 12 nex against a normal terran opening. I don't recall any games where they lost actually, but a lot where they've won.
On September 04 2009 13:02 Avidkeystamper wrote: Bunkers and marines are completely useless without backup against ranged goons. There's a high win ratio when Protoss loses their 12 nex against a normal terran opening. I don't recall any games where they lost actually, but a lot where they've won.
Actually, as a protoss, you can just walk past the bunker and your shields will regenerate by the time you get to the opponent's base. I remember a game on heartbreak where an aggressive terran (maybe iris) went for a 2 fact push and crushed the toss. It's so lame how protosses can lose their nexuses and still be ahead =/
On September 04 2009 13:02 Avidkeystamper wrote: Bunkers and marines are completely useless without backup against ranged goons. There's a high win ratio when Protoss loses their 12 nex against a normal terran opening. I don't recall any games where they lost actually, but a lot where they've won.
Actually, as a protoss, you can just walk past the bunker and your shields will regenerate by the time you get to the opponent's base. I remember a game on heartbreak where an aggressive terran (maybe iris) went for a 2 fact push and crushed the toss. It's so lame how protosses can lose their nexuses and still be ahead =/
If a single-bunker rush off one barracks tends to lose to 12nex after taking down the nexus, perhaps it's not a good counter to 12nex. There's options. (Less so on 4player maps. I don't like them because of that random luck factor.)
Maybe an M&M rush timed before goon range would be a good way to punish late tech. Or just 2facs (Liquipedia seems to like the hyper-aggressive 2fac builds, like Joyo or Gundam, against nexus-first builds) . Or just scout in time that your SCV can either block his nexus or fast expand yourself...
On September 04 2009 13:02 Avidkeystamper wrote: Bunkers and marines are completely useless without backup against ranged goons. There's a high win ratio when Protoss loses their 12 nex against a normal terran opening. I don't recall any games where they lost actually, but a lot where they've won.
Actually, as a protoss, you can just walk past the bunker and your shields will regenerate by the time you get to the opponent's base. I remember a game on heartbreak where an aggressive terran (maybe iris) went for a 2 fact push and crushed the toss. It's so lame how protosses can lose their nexuses and still be ahead =/
If a single-bunker rush off one barracks tends to lose to 12nex after taking down the nexus, perhaps it's not a good counter to 12nex. There's options. (Less so on 4player maps. I don't like them because of that random luck factor.)
Maybe an M&M rush timed before goon range would be a good way to punish late tech. Or just 2facs (Liquipedia seems to like the hyper-aggressive 2fac builds, like Joyo or Gundam, against nexus-first builds) . Or just scout in time that your SCV can either block his nexus or fast expand yourself...
there have been a couple threads about 12 nex in the past. according to idra, if toss 12 nex and the terran did a standard build there's basically nothing you can do to counter. even bunker rushing and successfully taking down the nex will still result with the toss having the edge
best way to deal with it is to just expand yourself and take the slight disadvantage. if you notice toss's 12 nexing a lot then open up with a barracks first build/proxy barracks more often.
edit: oh and absolutely never never never respond to 12 nex with a 2 fac. it won't work, 12 nex is engineered to defend from 2 fac. a couple probes are cut to get 2 gates and range done quite quick and if he sees your 2 facing he'll just add another gate and its gg.
On September 04 2009 13:02 Avidkeystamper wrote: Bunkers and marines are completely useless without backup against ranged goons. There's a high win ratio when Protoss loses their 12 nex against a normal terran opening. I don't recall any games where they lost actually, but a lot where they've won.
Actually, as a protoss, you can just walk past the bunker and your shields will regenerate by the time you get to the opponent's base. I remember a game on heartbreak where an aggressive terran (maybe iris) went for a 2 fact push and crushed the toss. It's so lame how protosses can lose their nexuses and still be ahead =/
If a single-bunker rush off one barracks tends to lose to 12nex after taking down the nexus, perhaps it's not a good counter to 12nex. There's options. (Less so on 4player maps. I don't like them because of that random luck factor.)
Maybe an M&M rush timed before goon range would be a good way to punish late tech. Or just 2facs (Liquipedia seems to like the hyper-aggressive 2fac builds, like Joyo or Gundam, against nexus-first builds) . Or just scout in time that your SCV can either block his nexus or fast expand yourself...
there have been a couple threads about 12 nex in the past. according to idra, if toss 12 nex and the terran did a standard build there's basically nothing you can do to counter. even bunker rushing and successfully taking down the nex will still result with the toss having the edge
best way to deal with it is to just expand yourself and take the slight disadvantage. if you notice toss's 12 nexing a lot then open up with a barracks first build/proxy barracks more often.
edit: oh and absolutely never never never respond to 12 nex with a 2 fac. it won't work, 12 nex is engineered to defend from 2 fac. a couple probes are cut to get 2 gates and range done quite quick and if he sees your 2 facing he'll just add another gate and its gg.
How does double expanding with siege fare against a 12 nex? I've done it successfully on maps like Medusa where it's easy to get your third, but I guess trying it on a map like heartbreak ridge would lead to a bad result. If you can get a lucky mine to explode, your 2fact will be probably be successful, but people have such good micro now, that it's hard to get anything at all and if your push gets destroyed, you're pretty much screwed.
On September 04 2009 12:20 lazz wrote: effort should be up a few ranks, kwanro down a few ranks
Effort is exactly where he belongs if he's on at all. He won absolutely nothing except for a set against Really, because he was playing nothing because he was out of everything. Oh, and Blizzcon I guess but meh, that's totally off-set by losing to Firefist.
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc).
On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:
On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:
On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote: It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way).
You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history.
Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too.
You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following.
Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here
I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level.
That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years.
Your reason is flawed dude. So, if according to your "Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa" theory is true, then I guess that would make Jaedong bonjwa since he has one more title than Bisu? I think most people would disagree on that...
also, 3OSL > 3MSL. ok anything else ? nothing interesting this month
The largest gap in between Kespa #1 and #2 in the history of Starcraft?
most likely
Meh, kespa rank is really bad way to represent player skill. Of all the reasons you could have picked you chose the worst one :p.
On September 04 2009 13:02 Avidkeystamper wrote: Bunkers and marines are completely useless without backup against ranged goons. There's a high win ratio when Protoss loses their 12 nex against a normal terran opening. I don't recall any games where they lost actually, but a lot where they've won.
Actually, as a protoss, you can just walk past the bunker and your shields will regenerate by the time you get to the opponent's base. I remember a game on heartbreak where an aggressive terran (maybe iris) went for a 2 fact push and crushed the toss. It's so lame how protosses can lose their nexuses and still be ahead =/
If a single-bunker rush off one barracks tends to lose to 12nex after taking down the nexus, perhaps it's not a good counter to 12nex. There's options. (Less so on 4player maps. I don't like them because of that random luck factor.)
Maybe an M&M rush timed before goon range would be a good way to punish late tech. Or just 2facs (Liquipedia seems to like the hyper-aggressive 2fac builds, like Joyo or Gundam, against nexus-first builds) . Or just scout in time that your SCV can either block his nexus or fast expand yourself...
there have been a couple threads about 12 nex in the past. according to idra, if toss 12 nex and the terran did a standard build there's basically nothing you can do to counter. even bunker rushing and successfully taking down the nex will still result with the toss having the edge
best way to deal with it is to just expand yourself and take the slight disadvantage. if you notice toss's 12 nexing a lot then open up with a barracks first build/proxy barracks more often.
edit: oh and absolutely never never never respond to 12 nex with a 2 fac. it won't work, 12 nex is engineered to defend from 2 fac. a couple probes are cut to get 2 gates and range done quite quick and if he sees your 2 facing he'll just add another gate and its gg.
How does double expanding with siege fare against a 12 nex? I've done it successfully on maps like Medusa where it's easy to get your third, but I guess trying it on a map like heartbreak ridge would lead to a bad result. If you can get a lucky mine to explode, your 2fact will be probably be successful, but people have such good micro now, that it's hard to get anything at all and if your push gets destroyed, you're pretty much screwed.
It is super map Dependant, you need to be able to mostly cover your nat and 3rd with the same group of tanks. Otherwise you will get chewed up by range goons before tank density gets high enough.
Shunned by supposed holier-than-thou purists of one game just because they believe their game is objectively better, despite the fact that competitiveness and support in any kind of e-sport helps the movement for mainstream acceptance as a whole?
Haha I'm just pulling your chain. The former games require less technical proficiency at the highest level and are generally slower paced.
Though my quip at E-sports purists probably applies too.
The most important thing is that WoW is BORING to watch. Seriously, that's the #1 determining factor for any e-sport: Is it fun to watch?
For Starcraft the answer is a resounding 'Yes'. WoW is really shitty to watch, and the poor balance (resulting in half the teams at every tournament being Rogue-Mage-Priest) doesn't help either. Also, the luck factor is too high. Do you really want to watch the after-battle report showing that the 'defining moment' was that a spell got resisted? ZzZzZZZzz.....
On September 09 2009 14:38 Hinanawi wrote: The most important thing is that WoW is BORING to watch. Seriously, that's the #1 determining factor for any e-sport: Is it fun to watch?
For Starcraft the answer is a resounding 'Yes'. WoW is really shitty to watch, and the poor balance (resulting in half the teams at every tournament being Rogue-Mage-Priest) doesn't help either. Also, the luck factor is too high. Do you really want to watch the after-battle report showing that the 'defining moment' was that a spell got resisted? ZzZzZZZzz.....
RMP combo is probably 90% TBH. It is pretty bad. In the Swiss tournament on Gom there were like 2 or 3 teams that were not RMP so it does get boring really quickly. To compare to SC it would be like watching tvt, pvp or zvz (not all but one) for every matchup. Sure it can be entertaining but eventually after the 20th game, it gets bad.
I am kind of worried about Bisu. He has the same amazing strategy and game sense as always, but he seems a little slower lately. Iris would have never taken game 5 off him 6 months ago... same with the recent by.hero game. It seems like it could be a hand/wrist issue, I really hope that I am wrong.
On September 25 2009 02:26 Orbifold wrote: Let's fight over which progamer has the most success with women.
It's totally Hwasin.
Well Calm is/was dating Tossgirl.
Pretty much all of STX are ladykillers, actually. That's what the tight pants are for.
are you SURE they dated? Every 2 months someone just starts some rumor that she is dating some random STX player. If your source is just someone's post from TL I'd say it's wrong.
On September 25 2009 02:26 Orbifold wrote: Let's fight over which progamer has the most success with women.
It's totally Hwasin.
Well Calm is/was dating Tossgirl.
Pretty much all of STX are ladykillers, actually. That's what the tight pants are for.
are you SURE they dated? Every 2 months someone just starts some rumor that she is dating some random STX player. If your source is just someone's post from TL I'd say it's wrong.
My sources are about a dozen posts/chat comments on TL. Yeah, I've heard the odd "Hwasin and Tossgirl are dating" comments, but the overwhelming majority reference Calm. I started hearing this even before the last PL season when Calm became big name, so I'm inclined to believe it's true.
This PR brings back so much nostalgia; sitting with my friends, beer in hand, explaining just why Jaedong was the most motha-fucking skilled player when he killed that vulture game 5. "Its just one unit he killed, so?" No, he killed Fantasy in that moment
EPT
I agree with almost everything, nice job. Fantasy's spot is debatable but my gut feeling would've been to put him there as well, numbers don't say everything.
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