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On September 04 2009 01:34 IMlemon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2009 21:31 Geo.Rion wrote:On September 03 2009 21:15 Shikyo wrote:On September 03 2009 20:47 Jaeden wrote:On September 03 2009 18:39 Dice84 wrote:On September 03 2009 05:26 luckybeni2 wrote:On September 03 2009 02:54 baubo wrote:On September 03 2009 00:24 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote:
It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way). You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history. I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc). On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote:
It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way). You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history. Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too. You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following. Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level. That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years. Your reason is flawed dude. So, if according to your "Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa" theory is true, then I guess that would make Jaedong bonjwa since he has one more title than Bisu? I think most people would disagree on that... also, 3OSL > 3MSL. ok anything else ? nothing interesting this month  The largest gap in between Kespa #1 and #2 in the history of Starcraft? most likely Meh, kespa rank is really bad way to represent player skill. Of all the reasons you could have picked you chose the worst one :p.
Kespa rank was one of the arguments used to block Jaedong-Bonjwa talk. ELO looks like a better ranking until you notice it currently holds Bisu > Flash > Jaedong.
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1) jaedong : undisputed
2) Fantasy : showed really good games going toe to toe with the best
3) Bisu : i feel that if the MSL finals were Bisu vs Calm, Bisu would win.
4) Calm : Not trying to steal Calm's thunder, but his MSL opponent WAS Kwanro.
5) Flash : kicks ass.
6) Yarnc : Makes the OSL ro2. c'mon
7) Iris : beat Bisu.  ]
8) Stork : WCG finalist
9) Kwanro : made MSL finals
10) Effort : still kicks ass
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Gotta agree with what seems to be the general consensus... Fantasy a little too high. I saw that WCG set vs. Stork and Fantasy just got schooled. Game 1 Stork recovered from losing his 12 Nexus to a bunker rush... one of the better games of the tournament actually.
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meh stork always loses his 12nex, always recovers. dunno how or why
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On September 04 2009 12:03 o[twist] wrote:
meh stork always loses his 12nex, always recovers. dunno how or why
As long as you save the probes and they some mining, it's about even as not putting it down.
You'll be a bit behind in tech, but toss can recover from that because terran push timing is off because of marine + SCV + bunker push. Marine mins + lost SCV mining + bunker mins could've gone towards earlier fac aggro or faster CC.
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disagree with iris and calm's positions, and to a lesser degree fantasy's. effort should be up a few ranks, kwanro down a few ranks
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On September 04 2009 12:12 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:03 o[twist] wrote:
meh stork always loses his 12nex, always recovers. dunno how or why As long as you save the probes and they some mining, it's about even as not putting it down. You'll be a bit behind in tech, but toss can recover from that because terran push timing is off because of marine + SCV + bunker push. Marine mins + lost SCV mining + bunker mins could've gone towards earlier fac aggro or faster CC.
true, but terran still has the bunker and the scvs and the marines. it seems like there has to be some advantage.
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Bunkers and marines are completely useless without backup against ranged goons. There's a high win ratio when Protoss loses their 12 nex against a normal terran opening. I don't recall any games where they lost actually, but a lot where they've won.
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On September 04 2009 13:02 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Bunkers and marines are completely useless without backup against ranged goons. There's a high win ratio when Protoss loses their 12 nex against a normal terran opening. I don't recall any games where they lost actually, but a lot where they've won.
Actually, as a protoss, you can just walk past the bunker and your shields will regenerate by the time you get to the opponent's base. I remember a game on heartbreak where an aggressive terran (maybe iris) went for a 2 fact push and crushed the toss. It's so lame how protosses can lose their nexuses and still be ahead =/
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On September 04 2009 13:05 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:02 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Bunkers and marines are completely useless without backup against ranged goons. There's a high win ratio when Protoss loses their 12 nex against a normal terran opening. I don't recall any games where they lost actually, but a lot where they've won. Actually, as a protoss, you can just walk past the bunker and your shields will regenerate by the time you get to the opponent's base. I remember a game on heartbreak where an aggressive terran (maybe iris) went for a 2 fact push and crushed the toss. It's so lame how protosses can lose their nexuses and still be ahead =/
If a single-bunker rush off one barracks tends to lose to 12nex after taking down the nexus, perhaps it's not a good counter to 12nex. There's options. (Less so on 4player maps. I don't like them because of that random luck factor.)
Maybe an M&M rush timed before goon range would be a good way to punish late tech. Or just 2facs (Liquipedia seems to like the hyper-aggressive 2fac builds, like Joyo or Gundam, against nexus-first builds) . Or just scout in time that your SCV can either block his nexus or fast expand yourself...
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On September 04 2009 14:05 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:05 ghostWriter wrote:On September 04 2009 13:02 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Bunkers and marines are completely useless without backup against ranged goons. There's a high win ratio when Protoss loses their 12 nex against a normal terran opening. I don't recall any games where they lost actually, but a lot where they've won. Actually, as a protoss, you can just walk past the bunker and your shields will regenerate by the time you get to the opponent's base. I remember a game on heartbreak where an aggressive terran (maybe iris) went for a 2 fact push and crushed the toss. It's so lame how protosses can lose their nexuses and still be ahead =/ If a single-bunker rush off one barracks tends to lose to 12nex after taking down the nexus, perhaps it's not a good counter to 12nex. There's options. (Less so on 4player maps. I don't like them because of that random luck factor.) Maybe an M&M rush timed before goon range would be a good way to punish late tech. Or just 2facs (Liquipedia seems to like the hyper-aggressive 2fac builds, like Joyo or Gundam, against nexus-first builds) . Or just scout in time that your SCV can either block his nexus or fast expand yourself...
there have been a couple threads about 12 nex in the past. according to idra, if toss 12 nex and the terran did a standard build there's basically nothing you can do to counter. even bunker rushing and successfully taking down the nex will still result with the toss having the edge
best way to deal with it is to just expand yourself and take the slight disadvantage. if you notice toss's 12 nexing a lot then open up with a barracks first build/proxy barracks more often.
edit: oh and absolutely never never never respond to 12 nex with a 2 fac. it won't work, 12 nex is engineered to defend from 2 fac. a couple probes are cut to get 2 gates and range done quite quick and if he sees your 2 facing he'll just add another gate and its gg.
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On September 04 2009 16:15 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 14:05 Severedevil wrote:On September 04 2009 13:05 ghostWriter wrote:On September 04 2009 13:02 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Bunkers and marines are completely useless without backup against ranged goons. There's a high win ratio when Protoss loses their 12 nex against a normal terran opening. I don't recall any games where they lost actually, but a lot where they've won. Actually, as a protoss, you can just walk past the bunker and your shields will regenerate by the time you get to the opponent's base. I remember a game on heartbreak where an aggressive terran (maybe iris) went for a 2 fact push and crushed the toss. It's so lame how protosses can lose their nexuses and still be ahead =/ If a single-bunker rush off one barracks tends to lose to 12nex after taking down the nexus, perhaps it's not a good counter to 12nex. There's options. (Less so on 4player maps. I don't like them because of that random luck factor.) Maybe an M&M rush timed before goon range would be a good way to punish late tech. Or just 2facs (Liquipedia seems to like the hyper-aggressive 2fac builds, like Joyo or Gundam, against nexus-first builds) . Or just scout in time that your SCV can either block his nexus or fast expand yourself... there have been a couple threads about 12 nex in the past. according to idra, if toss 12 nex and the terran did a standard build there's basically nothing you can do to counter. even bunker rushing and successfully taking down the nex will still result with the toss having the edge best way to deal with it is to just expand yourself and take the slight disadvantage. if you notice toss's 12 nexing a lot then open up with a barracks first build/proxy barracks more often. edit: oh and absolutely never never never respond to 12 nex with a 2 fac. it won't work, 12 nex is engineered to defend from 2 fac. a couple probes are cut to get 2 gates and range done quite quick and if he sees your 2 facing he'll just add another gate and its gg.
How does double expanding with siege fare against a 12 nex? I've done it successfully on maps like Medusa where it's easy to get your third, but I guess trying it on a map like heartbreak ridge would lead to a bad result.
If you can get a lucky mine to explode, your 2fact will be probably be successful, but people have such good micro now, that it's hard to get anything at all and if your push gets destroyed, you're pretty much screwed.
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On September 04 2009 12:20 lazz wrote:
effort should be up a few ranks, kwanro down a few ranks
Effort is exactly where he belongs if he's on at all. He won absolutely nothing except for a set against Really, because he was playing nothing because he was out of everything. Oh, and Blizzcon I guess but meh, that's totally off-set by losing to Firefist.
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On September 04 2009 01:34 IMlemon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2009 21:31 Geo.Rion wrote:On September 03 2009 21:15 Shikyo wrote:On September 03 2009 20:47 Jaeden wrote:On September 03 2009 18:39 Dice84 wrote:On September 03 2009 05:26 luckybeni2 wrote:On September 03 2009 02:54 baubo wrote:On September 03 2009 00:24 TwoToneTerran wrote:On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote:
It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way). You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history. I think until just this season, Protoss had more major titles than Zerg. Honestly, in the Terran days, Protoss is lackluster on dominant periods, but overall is quite solid. They've just never had a single player who was better than everyone else for a while, though if you combine Taek-Bang you get what amounts to a protoss bonjwa out of 2 players (3 msls, lots of side tournaments, 1 OSL, good WCG showings, strong in PL, etc). On September 03 2009 01:34 luckybeni2 wrote:On September 02 2009 21:09 baubo wrote:On September 02 2009 11:07 Hinanawi wrote:
It really goes to show what a balanced game Brood War is with what a nice spread we get of top players' races, and how we sometimes get 'swings' in the metagame favoring one race or another (which always eventually swing a different way). You must have a short memory. Because SC history is full of terran dominance. With sprinkles of zerg dominance here and there. The 6 dragons era lasted for all of 3 month. And if that counts as protoss dominance, it's quite sad for the race in general. It is by far the weakest race in progaming history. Take bisu and stork and combine what they managed to do in the last couple of years. Stork may be short on golds but he was the second place for a very long time. Every silver he got meant he lost in the finals. They may never had a streak of compleat dominace for long but they always had players who were title material. The Protoss era did not last long but what do you expect? One race on all good spots for a year would be pretty boring and the mapmakers helped end that era too. You guys do realize that you're basically comparing a race that has to combine its two best players to make a single bonjwa, to the following. Zerg: 2 golden mouse winners(Jaedong, Julyzerg) 1 Bonjwa with same number of titles as Stork/Bisu combo(Savior), and the king of silvers(Yellow) Terran: Nada, Boxer, Oov... I don't even have to mention Flash here I know the joke is always 1a2a3a protoss ez race, but I don't see how anyone can disagree that it's the most difficult race to succeed on a pro level. That is not true. Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa and stork is on top for far longer than almost every other player. In the end all that counts is that you dont have a more dominant race over the others. this season is the first for quite a long time without a protoss in the finals. Bisu jangbi stork and kal were the finalists of every (only jaedong-forgg excluded) major league in the last 2 .5 years. Your reason is flawed dude. So, if according to your "Bisu is one title away from being a bonjwa" theory is true, then I guess that would make Jaedong bonjwa since he has one more title than Bisu? I think most people would disagree on that... also, 3OSL > 3MSL. ok anything else ? nothing interesting this month The largest gap in between Kespa #1 and #2 in the history of Starcraft? most likely Meh, kespa rank is really bad way to represent player skill. Of all the reasons you could have picked you chose the worst one :p.
Kespa rank represents achievements.
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Reading this interview makes me like CJ even more. <3
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On September 05 2009 02:21 SuperArc wrote:
Reading this interview makes me like CJ even more. <3
Which interview exactly?
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On September 05 2009 05:40 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 02:21 SuperArc wrote:
Reading this interview makes me like CJ even more. <3 Which interview exactly?
damn this happens when you use too many tabs >_>
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great PR riptide 
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I disagree strongly with this PR. Gespa should be 1st no doubt.
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EPT
