The Sweet Life – Seed defeats MC 4 - 1, becoming the first Protoss GSL champion in over 16 months
Coming into the round of sixteen as a Code S newcomer and underdog, Seed said that he wanted in on 'tasting the honey' of Code S, a Korean expression roughly equivalent to 'living the good life.' In that case, this is as good, and as sweet as life gets.
Seed dominated MC in the Code S grand finals held at the haewoondae beach of Busan, using superior mind-games to win an easy 4 - 1 victory. MC stated before the finals that the perceived luck in PvP was actually skill, and in that case, he must admit that he was thoroughly outplayed.
Seed opened the series with three consecutive one-base all-in builds, which proved to be the perfect counter to MC's far greedier openers. After the finals, MC gave a nod of approval to Seed's strategies, saying that he expected his opponent to play for greedier macro games, and that he had been outsmarted.
The Boss-toss was able to avoid getting swept by using his own all-in in game four, a game where Seed fast expanded, surely believing that MC had been scared into conservative play by the three consecutive all-ins prior. However, it was only a brief reprieve for MC, as he went down in the final game.
GomTV was able to avoid the finals being a total all-in fest in game five, with both players transitioning out of one-base builds to go for a massive colossus battle. Seed was able to get the upper hand when he drew MC out of position, entering the final battle with his troops in a superior firing arc. With his army wiped out, MC was forced to concede defeat, looking philosophical in his booth.
– The modest champion
Back over in the champion's booth, Seed reacted surprisingly. After being one of the most enthusiastic players in Code S this season, using manner nexii, dancing stalkers, and beverage ceremonies to mark his victories, Seed chose to celebrate his greatest triumph of all in a silent reverie. Whatever sense of joy or fulfillment he felt in that moment, he decided to internalize, eyes closed and hands raised to his head. He had only a few quiet moments to himself until LG-IM's head coach Kang Dong Hoon entered the booth, followed by multiple champions Mvp and Nestea, seemingly come to tell him "you're one of us now."
Interviewed by an effusive Park Sang Hyun, Seed maintained his calm composure. He deflected much of the credit, even taking time to praise the GomTV production crew for their hard work in setting up the outdoor stage at haewoondae. Nor did he seek to place himself on top of the Protoss totem pole, saying that even with this one victory, he couldn't surpass the Protoss President. However, Seed did have one emotionally charged outburst he was willing to share. When asked if he had anything to say to his family that had come to watch live, Seed replied with a deafening "I LOVE YOU!"
As for MC, it didn't take him long to recover his usual form. Shortly after congratulating Seed on the live stage, he went on to tweet "The next time we meet, I. Will. Destroy. You."
Drawing close air spots on Metropolis, Seed decided to take advantage of the situation with some trickery. While MC went for fast two-gas into robotics facility, Seed initially pretended to go for a normal one base opening before canceling his second assimilator to switch into a 4-gate + warp-prism all-in.
Seed's strategy ended up working out perfectly, as MC's sentries and immortals were hopelessly outmatched against four-gate's worth of Seed's units warping in inside the wide expanses of his main base. MC tried to hold out for as long as he could, but in the end there was no option but to GG out.
Having taken one easy game with 4-gate + warp-prism, Seed decided to see if MC had learned his lesson. Gas was canceled once again, and though he didn't have the advantage of close air spots on Metropolis, Seed remedied that problem by proxying his robotics facility just across from MC's main.
As it turned out, MC was going for another strategy that was terribly vulnerable to Seed's attack, a dark templar expansion. With his money in zealots and stalkers instead of immortals and sentries like the previous game, MC was able to mount a slightly more credible defense, but was doomed to die in the end. MC's first DT gave him some false hope, but he GG'd out when the first observer arrived on the scene.
Surely Seed wouldn't use another all-in on one of the biggest maps in the pool? If MC thought so, then he was mistaken. Seed opened up with a gas steal into blink all-in build, while MC responded to the gas steal by dumping his minerals into a fast nexus followed by four gates.
MC attempted to apply some pressure after his warpgates completed, but he didn't have much luck against the defense at Seed's ramp. Once blink research was done, it was Seed's turn to move out and see what he could get done... which turned out to be a whole lot, given that MC was defending with just zealots and stalkers against the vast superior blink stalkers. With just the most rudimentary blink-back micro, Seed was able to utterly crush MC's inferior composition to take a shocking 3 – 0 lead.
After getting all-in'd three games in a row, MC decided to go for one of his own world-famous all-ins. Starting by building a very early gateway, MC sent out a fast probe scout to build a hidden pylon in Seed's main. Seed did not expect this kind of strategy at all, not bothering to search the corners of his base while he went for a 1-gate, fast expansion. Needless to say he was unable to deal with the ensuing attack very well, and GG'd out after a brief, disastrous defense.
With the fifth game, the players finally opened with mirror builds in the mirror match-up, going for fast three stalker builds. However, they quickly diverged in their choice of follow-up strategies, with MC adding a robo and more gateways to go for the dangerous one colossus + 4-gate all-in, while Seed opted to go for both robotics and twilight council for the popular Cloud Kingdom strategy of blink + observer.
The way it played out, a clash of two one-base builds didn't actually result in a quick finish to the game. Seed poked around with his stalkers, but with his opponent having built so many troops off one base, there were few holes to exploit. On the other hand, MC didn't really feel like moving out with so many blink stakers threatening to attack. So instead, both players decided to expand and play for a longer game, with Seed taking his Nexus slightly faster.
Initially it looked like MC was getting ahead as he had started his colossus tech earlier in the game, but two robotics facilities from Seed allowed him to quickly even the score. Neither player seemed intent on attacking at all at the two base phase, so they continued to tech up, take third bases, and proceeded straight to the 200/200 battle.
The eventual conclusion came surprisingly quickly. Instead of seeing both players spend an extended amount of time posturing, prodding, and looking around for the small advantage needed to engage in a final laser battle, Seed was able to manufacture an opening almost on demand. A small group of his zealots pulled MC's colossi slightly out of position, and while MC very quickly realized that the main attack would be coming from another angle, he was already too late.
Seed attacked into MC's third base with a good arch, and had at least a few volleys of colossus fire to his advantage. At the end of the laser show, Seed was left with a handful of colossi standing compared to none for MC. There was nothing left for MC to do so, and he surrendered the championship to Seed.
Seed 4 – 1 MC
Writers: Waxangel. Graphics and Art: Meko and shiroiusagi. Editor: Waxangel.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
Hmm...sounds like a terribly disappointing finals. Just basing it off the recap doesn't seem like either player proved that PvP was all about skill considering the trickery that Seed employed.
On July 27 2012 22:44 Bodzilla wrote: was the most terrible let down for a finals ever.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
What? I think seed cemented himself with his play in ro8 and ro4. Remember Nestea also rolled over inca and LosirA in the finals. MVP vs TOP was pretty one sided. Do I wish we could have longer game and series? Sure. But you can't take anything away from Seed. He is a champion. But to reach the status of the others you mentioned, he need to do it again and again. Even if these finals went Bo7 and all macro games, it doesn't change this. A legacy is never built on one series.
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
On July 27 2012 22:44 Bodzilla wrote: was the most terrible let down for a finals ever.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
I am abit confused at your reply.Didn't you read the recap?Seed himself said that he doesn't consider himself better than MC a.k.a one of the best players.Or am i misreading something here?
Didn't care much for this final but I'm happy Seed won. It's good for LG-IM and the scene in general that a big company like LG are willing to jump into sc2 and pick up a "non KeSPA" team and get two championship wins back as a return immediately. I don't know if this will have any bigger impact on other companies in Korea to maybe invest in a sc2 team rather than a LoL team for an example but I bet LG are happy at least.
Seed knew he had to cheese to have a chance against MC. So he took his shot, MC was expecting that he would fight like a man. It turned out otherwise. I think that is the reason for his aggresiv tweet. He will have a different mindset next time when he faces Seed.
Mirrors show a lot about what the race is about..and when pvp is played to win, this is what we get..toss is most efficient at gimmicky, all - inish play..hopefully things will change with HOTS and play from the likes of hero, sase, puzzle will be more effective than the all inish, ruthless efficiency we see from most toss players.
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
Does that mean MC deleted it afterwards? Because I can't see it. The Korean tweets have a huge amount of text and no one-liner. https://twitter.com/sk__mc
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
Does that mean MC deleted it afterwards? Because I can't see it. The Korean tweets have a huge amount of text and no one-liner. https://twitter.com/sk__mc
On July 27 2012 22:44 Bodzilla wrote: was the most terrible let down for a finals ever.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
Seed you sexy beast you won me a decent amount of cash :D with odds of 9 to 1 from round of 16 thanks so much for winning \o/ \o/ \o/ your my Protoss hero.
didn't watch either but I'm dissapointed with the results :/ mc with 3 championships on his palmarés sounds waaay more impressive than seeds first championship... this month of gsl has been a month full of promises and many dissapointments :/
On July 27 2012 22:44 Bodzilla wrote: was the most terrible let down for a finals ever.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
I think NesTea vs. Inca still gets the award for worst final ever. This at least had some interesting mind games.
On July 27 2012 22:44 Bodzilla wrote: was the most terrible let down for a finals ever.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
I think NesTea vs. Inca still gets the award for worst final ever. This at least had some interesting mind games.
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
The stage looked really nice, but there was very little crowd. A pity, but I guess many people know PvP isn't exactly the most interesting matchup. Even so I can't help but admit the lack of people was concerning. This is the finals featuring one of the Koreans who actuallly has a personality and still not many show up...
Deserved champion. Solid through Ro32 and Ro16, upsetting great players such as Curious, TaeJa, SymboL, Byun (both with amazing comebacks) and, of course, steamrolling MC.
Great decision-making and overall smart as hell. Besides being the complete opposite of a choker.
I really liked this guy since the groups selection. Probably the only protoss player I like, even though I don't find P matches enjoyable at all.
P.S: To everyone saying he'll be sort of a 'ghost champion' like Polt and Jjakji... they still are pretty solid players, doing well in team leagues, GSL and other tournaments, being able to take games and matches from the top players. They may not be MVP-Nestea-MC-DRG-MMA tier, but they're the players below those and the 'flavor of the month' tier ones (PartinG, Squirtle, SymboL, etc).
Congrats to Seed, always happy to see an underdog pull through. It takes a strong mentality to face MC on a stage like that while staying focused. I've always enjoyed the cut throat nature of Korean starcraft, they play to win. However, I must admit I am disappointed to see that simply taking a natural in PvP is so dangerous even with their level of preparation and understanding.
On July 27 2012 23:27 Svennedude wrote: didn't watch either but I'm dissapointed with the results :/ mc with 3 championships on his palmarés sounds waaay more impressive than seeds first championship... this month of gsl has been a month full of promises and many dissapointments :/
Lol, you support IM and you're disappointed by Seeds victory ?
And for all the raging people, I don't like PvP like a lot of people, but it's so funny to see that so many people still say : " Seed win because he is a cheesy player blablabla "
Guys, do you really think that PvP is (in general) a long macro game ? There are some strat to get your 2nd base, but still 75% of this match up is a one base all-in
Wasn't the most entertaining finals for me, would've liked to see some more macro games, but at least the last one was good. Seed clearly showed some skills there!
I gotta say, one very hard thing with the GSL and the time difference is that it is almost impossible not to get spoiled. I either log on to TL without my spoilers check mark or go to reddit by accident. The only way not to get spoiled is to stay away from the internet at work until i get home ( but i need my SC2 fix). Thanks for the recap though im excited to watch, nice to see another Protoss champ, but i knew this before the games even started .
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
The stage looked really nice, but there was very little crowd. A pity, but I guess many people know PvP isn't exactly the most interesting matchup. Even so I can't help but admit the lack of people was concerning. This is the finals featuring one of the Koreans who actuallly has a personality and still not many show up...
It's a Friday though. Many people probably didn't go because they had work and thus didn't have the time to travel there, or they were too tired.
Not the worst finals ever, but I am still slightly dissapointed by the amount of cheese from Seed. I suppose I was over excited and expected too much from them. Grats to Seed and I am sure will we see more from MC.
" but they're the players below those and the 'flavor of the month' tier ones (PartinG, Squirtle, SymboL, etc)." I would not say Squirtle is flavour of the month, the only reason he didn't get far this season was because he was in the group of death with MC,MKP and symbol, he is still playing very well in other tournaments too I would put all 3 ahead of jakji and I would still put Squirtle ahead of polt too, possibly still 2nd best toss after MC, though symbol is making a case for himself
On July 27 2012 23:47 paddyz wrote: I would put all 3 ahead of jakji and I would still put Squirtle ahead of polt too, possibly still 2nd best toss after MC, though symbol is making a case for himself
Just because players win "just" one championship, it doesn't mean they didn't deserve it or, worse, that it was a "fluke". Polt, Jjakji and Seed all earned their victories against odds, through hard effort and dedication. They have what they have earned: one championship. It doesn't make them the absolute best, it doesn't mean they are necessarily better than other players who didn't win any, it simply means that they are the players who played the right games and triumphed in a tournament whose winner is called "champion". Look at Polt and Jjakji, these 2011 "flukes". They have had consistent code A/S placements since then, placed well in qualifiers and quite a few tournaments, played well in team-leagues, inspired their races. Not that many players can claim as much, and most of those who can happen to win something sooner or later. Sometimes a championship is just the validation of a player's being a solid entry in the top tier of professionals rather than simply being the top player. This is not meaningless. Why so much lack of respect for a great accomplishment, for everyone successful but the absolutely highest-earning individuals?
On July 27 2012 23:00 Gosi wrote: Didn't care much for this final but I'm happy Seed won. It's good for LG-IM and the scene in general that a big company like LG are willing to jump into sc2 and pick up a "non KeSPA" team and get a championship win back as a return immediately. I don't know if this will have any bigger impact on other companies in Korea to maybe invest in a sc2 team rather than a LoL team for an example but I bet LG are happy at least.
Not only A championship, but TWO championships, back-to-back :D
With this PvP finals under the belt, I wonder if blizzard thinks something should be done about PvP since no one seems to enjoy watching it but it is out there. Its really boring when I play it but it just seems to be a reality of life kinda thing, but how do you make mirror matches fun to watch without screwing up general game balance?
On July 28 2012 00:03 tehemperorer wrote: With this PvP finals under the belt, I wonder if blizzard thinks something should be done about PvP since no one seems to enjoy watching it but it is out there. Its really boring when I play it but it just seems to be a reality of life kinda thing, but how do you make mirror matches fun to watch without screwing up general game balance?
Humm.. "No one seems to enjoy watching it (PvP & Mirror MUs)"
That's one hell of a statement lol. I certainly enjoy mirror MUs, especially PvP, and I don't even play protoss. While you might not like it, it's not a valid reason for blizzard to alter the game for your own little entertainement lol. PvP can be played in so many ways nowadays. In this series, we didn't get to see much, like phoenix builds, immortal / warp prism harass, etc. This series didn't really represent the match up really well IMO.
On July 27 2012 23:00 Gosi wrote: Didn't care much for this final but I'm happy Seed won. It's good for LG-IM and the scene in general that a big company like LG are willing to jump into sc2 and pick up a "non KeSPA" team and get a championship win back as a return immediately. I don't know if this will have any bigger impact on other companies in Korea to maybe invest in a sc2 team rather than a LoL team for an example but I bet LG are happy at least.
Not only A championship, but TWO championships, back-to-back :D
Yeah, for some reason I was thinking that the LG-IM thing happened this season. I should edit my post.
On July 27 2012 22:44 Bodzilla wrote: was the most terrible let down for a finals ever.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
As terrible as a way a finals could be, Seed showed something I feel that lacks in tournaments. The reality that you see in ladders. Too many pro-gamers try all this fancy stuff for the fans and have some sort of instinctive consensus that they'll both play greedy macro games.
I can't stand it when a commentator says 'this player is so good that they can afford to open greedy like this'. They can't. They're playing in a pro-level game where the opponent also wants to be a macro-show off. That kind of playstyle will lose to anyone in GM by any regular all-in. Too many pro-gamers get praises for being 'solid macro' when it's not solid at all. 'Daring macro' would be a better description.
So in a way, I kind of like this wake-up call victory by Seed. I'm still a loyal fan of MC and hope he gets his delicious revenge.
I thought it was a great finals, the mind games were pretty entertaining and exciting imo. I think Seed just outplayed MC overall, and it really feels like MC got lucky to get 1 game as if Seed even bothered to scout that corner for the pylon he could've continuously forcefielded the ramp and held it.
Seed will still have a lot to do to catch up to MC's 2 championships, but it's certainly a good start to beat the Protoss president himself! I feel really good for Seed and being one of the rare few who supported him all the way and in every of his game (as he didn't get to play my favourite player Mvp even though they were in the same group xD) I just feel so proud of this IM-Protoss right now. IM now has champions in each race, truly a remarkable feat, best sc2 team no doubt, they just need to start showing it in team leagues!
IN SEED's defense it was PvP. There's no real good way of making those games look awesome or fun without something exceedingly retarded happening (like both player opening Phoenix or cannon rushing or something) It either becomes 1 base allin micro war or slow macro games with million colos
On July 28 2012 00:40 noD wrote: I dont play in like a year and a half but isnt a greedy strategy where u have 3 zealot/stalker to defend as cheese as an all-in ?
It's not the size of the standing army, it's the infrastructure. In this case, MC can't save himself even if he sees the instant when the all-in pushes out of SEED's base. He doesn't have the tech, sentry energy or # of warpgates to push it back. but yes, it's as cheesy as SEED.
MC played greedy with no basis and was in the dark. Seed won because he won the mind game. Doesn't make him on the list of 'best tosses" he certainly deserves the win.
On July 28 2012 00:41 Lawliet wrote: IN SEED's defense it was PvP. There's no real good way of making those games look awesome or fun without something exceedingly retarded happening (like both player opening Phoenix or cannon rushing or something) It either becomes 1 base allin micro war or slow macro games with million colos
You clearly havent watched enough PvP then, the games here today werent really representative of PvP and how exciting it can really be, i mean check out Heros game vs a protoss cant remeber who it was, recently in TAC i think. He went for storm vs collossi/immortal and won, it was a crazy game with storm drops and not just war of the worlds which EVERYONE, detests.
They were poor games entertainment wise today but every match up has its let down series
On July 27 2012 22:44 Bodzilla wrote: was the most terrible let down for a finals ever.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
What? I think seed cemented himself with his play in ro8 and ro4. Remember Nestea also rolled over inca and LosirA in the finals. MVP vs TOP was pretty one sided. Do I wish we could have longer game and series? Sure. But you can't take anything away from Seed. He is a champion. But to reach the status of the others you mentioned, he need to do it again and again. Even if these finals went Bo7 and all macro games, it doesn't change this. A legacy is never built on one series.
I think what hes trying to say is that, while nestea also dominated his opponents in his GSL matches, this was just a series of build order wins with a small bit of mindgames, right up until the last game. Until that one game the casters were able to call GG in advance the moment they saw the builds that were happening. Also the all-ins seed used are really easy to execute.
I'm not taking away from seed's victory, as clearly MC got emotionally messed up after game one, so Seed deserved it for having superior composure and planning. I think it's just that he didn't showcase the skill that a typical GSL champion would have. For the most part, he didn't have time to, as he just all-inned. But it made for a pretty crappy finals that was a little over an hour. :/
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
The stage looked really nice, but there was very little crowd. A pity, but I guess many people know PvP isn't exactly the most interesting matchup. Even so I can't help but admit the lack of people was concerning. This is the finals featuring one of the Koreans who actuallly has a personality and still not many show up...
perhaps because it was a pvp AND gstl final being tomorrow
is drg was playing crowds probably wouldve been bigger
On July 27 2012 23:07 nenshoua wrote: Mirrors show a lot about what the race is about..and when pvp is played to win, this is what we get..toss is most efficient at gimmicky, all - inish play..hopefully things will change with HOTS and play from the likes of hero, sase, puzzle will be more effective than the all inish, ruthless efficiency we see from most toss players.
Mirrors show alot about what the races mirror mu is about and thats about it. Im sorry but ZvZ while it is getting alot better is still largely about one or 2 base baneling play and if it gets late game mass roach infestor, niether of those things are what zerg is about, not to mention for the longest time zvz was very one-basey when zergs were expanding faster than all other races in their other mu. In TvT well, terrans love marine marauder medivac in most match ups but in mirror it always comes down to marine tank/viking, your point makes no sense and you seem rather biased against toss save a select few who you deem honorable. I usually don't pick on peoples post like this, but cmon, try and be a little objective. Yes PvP is alot of all ins but that does not mean protoss is an all in cheesey race. Some of the best long macro games ive seen involve toss, and nowadays PvZ seems like toss defending semi all in roach play and trying to play the long game more than the other way around.
On July 28 2012 01:00 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I'm not taking away from seed's victory, as clearly MC got emotionally messed up after game one, so Seed deserved it for having superior composure and planning. I think it's just that he didn't showcase the skill that a typical GSL champion would have. For the most part, he didn't have time to, as he just all-inned. But it made for a pretty crappy finals that was a little over an hour. :/
The skill that a typical GSL champion has is making the right decisions at the critical moments to win. Typical TL mindset is that macro=skill but clearly MC was outplayed tonight, especially in the second game. Winning a BO7 with 2/3 all-ins is not the same as winning 3 games on ladder consecutively with all-ins
On July 28 2012 00:03 tehemperorer wrote: With this PvP finals under the belt, I wonder if blizzard thinks something should be done about PvP since no one seems to enjoy watching it but it is out there. Its really boring when I play it but it just seems to be a reality of life kinda thing, but how do you make mirror matches fun to watch without screwing up general game balance?
Humm.. "No one seems to enjoy watching it (PvP & Mirror MUs)"
That's one hell of a statement lol. I certainly enjoy mirror MUs, especially PvP, and I don't even play protoss. While you might not like it, it's not a valid reason for blizzard to alter the game for your own little entertainement lol. PvP can be played in so many ways nowadays. In this series, we didn't get to see much, like phoenix builds, immortal / warp prism harass, etc. This series didn't really represent the match up really well IMO.
At least it's balanced! ^_^
Seeeeeeettle down, the general consensus is that the finals was boring and consisted two things: all-ins or colossi battles. You not playing Protoss is precisely why you enjoy mirror MUs, and the same reason that disqualifies you as anyone to talk about it. Why, at the top level of play, do you not see this matchup played in "so many ways?" Why do you think that is? Because it's not viable since nothing is safe. Any gold leaguer can muck around on the ladder with phoenix builds or DT expands, but they won't get you very far because they're not stable. You saying that this series didn't represent the matchup well is totally inaccurate; it summed up why PvP is the way it is: no Protoss defense can be consistently safe against Protoss offense.
i think seed showcased enough in his previous matches. pvp is all about mindset and decision making and build order luck but most protoss should know how to play pvp already. 4 gate SAFE HEAVEN.
On July 27 2012 22:44 Bodzilla wrote: was the most terrible let down for a finals ever.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
I think NesTea vs. Inca still gets the award for worst final ever. This at least had some interesting mind games.
Losira ?
Oh wow, that one was so bad I forgot that it even happened
Seed DID NOT outplay MC in absolutely no way. MCs only fault he prepared for these longer more entertaining games and Seed gave a shit about the entertaining element and that thousand of peoples were watching. Definatley not a good day for SC2 not a good day for E-Sports.
On July 28 2012 00:03 tehemperorer wrote: With this PvP finals under the belt, I wonder if blizzard thinks something should be done about PvP since no one seems to enjoy watching it but it is out there. Its really boring when I play it but it just seems to be a reality of life kinda thing, but how do you make mirror matches fun to watch without screwing up general game balance?
Humm.. "No one seems to enjoy watching it (PvP & Mirror MUs)"
That's one hell of a statement lol. I certainly enjoy mirror MUs, especially PvP, and I don't even play protoss. While you might not like it, it's not a valid reason for blizzard to alter the game for your own little entertainement lol. PvP can be played in so many ways nowadays. In this series, we didn't get to see much, like phoenix builds, immortal / warp prism harass, etc. This series didn't really represent the match up really well IMO.
At least it's balanced! ^_^
Seeeeeeettle down, the general consensus is that the finals was boring and consisted two things: all-ins or colossi battles. You not playing Protoss is precisely why you enjoy mirror MUs, and the same reason that disqualifies you as anyone to talk about it. Why, at the top level of play, do you not see this matchup played in "so many ways?" Why do you think that is? Because it's not viable since nothing is safe. Any gold leaguer can muck around on the ladder with phoenix builds or DT expands, but they won't get you very far because they're not stable. You saying that this series didn't represent the matchup well is totally inaccurate; it summed up why PvP is the way it is: no Protoss defense can be consistently safe against Protoss offense.
Well I play protoss and I enjoy mirror matchups. That said, my worst mu is PvP. (I'm in mid high masters). I think that there are ways to get into 2 base play fairly consistently, but neither player played very conservatively until the last game. All of the expand/techs we saw were really greedy in the first few. But it is past the day where expand = instant death.
HOTS has a really good chance to revolutionize this imo. Mothership core photon cannons, energize on a sentry for a lot of forcefields very quickly, and even energize for more chrono boost can change up the matchup and make defending significantly easier (for all matchups).
On July 28 2012 01:43 dj_holgie wrote: Seed DID NOT outplay MC in absolutely no way. MCs only fault he prepared for these longer more entertaining games and Seed gave a shit about the entertaining element and that thousand of peoples were watching. Definatley not a good day for SC2 not a good day for E-Sports.
Sorry but I think the real fans care about high-level play, not some kind of fake nr15 bullshit. seed came to win, and he did. something tells me mc came to win too...if he didnt, well then, he deserved to lose.
On July 28 2012 01:43 dj_holgie wrote: Seed DID NOT outplay MC in absolutely no way. MCs only fault he prepared for these longer more entertaining games and Seed gave a shit about the entertaining element and that thousand of peoples were watching. Definatley not a good day for SC2 not a good day for E-Sports.
That is just stupid. Seed did outplay MC. Because he chose tactics that work well against him. And if you did not see seed was going to macro game in the 2nd last game but MC all inned. And last game was also macro game WHICH SEED won convincingly with superior "colossus micro" if such thing does exist.
MC is good but please stop being idiot. Seed played really well and he deserved to win. He prepared well and MC did not well enough.
"Definatley not a good day for SC2 not a good day for E-Sports."
Well better than all those games going to late game where we will only see pointless laser wars. If you mean the whole PvP finals i agree i dont want to see such thing anymore.
On July 27 2012 23:06 Bizeheryer wrote: Seed knew he had to cheese to have a chance against MC. So he took his shot, MC was expecting that he would fight like a man. It turned out otherwise. I think that is the reason for his aggresiv tweet. He will have a different mindset next time when he faces Seed.
What exactly do you mean by fighting like a man? If it is macro games you are referring to, Seed took the win there.
The moment he won the game was the best one ever! He wanted to undo his headphones and thats when it hit him...he is the reigning GSL champion. Also hugging the coach, what a baller. Grats Seed.
One of the few, it appears, that actually enjoyed the series, quite happy since i called seed winning this before RO8. I'll admit pvp is not the most entertaining MU but for a PvP series it looked like the highest quality one can find. Congratulations to the champion, i really hope he maintains this exceptionally high level play and doesn't do a jjakji.
Seriously hoping some warnings/bans are dished out for these folks trashing on Seed for 1 basing/cheesing and bitching about PvP finals.
When you're playing at that level, for that much money.. You play to win folks; simple as that.
Besides, for a PvP finals, I'd rather see a series of games consisting of some innovative 1-basing as opposed to 20-30 Minute games consisting of mass turtling and the inevitable "final battle" colossus war which is pretty much always decided by who has the better unit spread and greater colossus count. (as opposed to who macros better, etc).
ya well what did you expected? that went totally in the opposit direction i must say. but thats the sc2 famous pvp.. 95% allins, most boring crap i ever saw since sc2 launch. want dad reevah back from bw ;(
3 Reasons. 1) PvP 2) MC was really greedy/careless 3) Seed outplayed MC in many ways
Warp prism 4gate is really risky build and yet Seed used it twice in a row knowing that MC would prefer macro game PvP. He analyzed MC properly and it worked for him. No need to bash him for "not entertaining" the crowd. He did. He showed amazing tactics and thinking process. I think MC was bit too confident with himself and played carelessly, but he played awesome regardless. It wasn't as amazing as other finals but it was decent enough. Congrats to Seed! he deserves it XD
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
On July 27 2012 22:44 Bodzilla wrote: was the most terrible let down for a finals ever.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
I think NesTea vs. Inca still gets the award for worst final ever. This at least had some interesting mind games.
Losira ?
Oh wow, that one was so bad I forgot that it even happened
Actualy those games where alot closer then this, and atleast we did see more then 1 base play.
On July 28 2012 02:16 Enzymatic wrote: Seriously hoping some warnings/bans are dished out for these folks trashing on Seed for 1 basing/cheesing and bitching about PvP finals.
When you're playing at that level, for that much money.. You play to win folks; simple as that.
Besides, for a PvP finals, I'd rather see a series of games consisting of some innovative 1-basing as opposed to 20-30 Minute games consisting of mass turtling and the inevitable "final battle" colossus war which is pretty much always decided by who has the better unit spread and greater colossus count. (as opposed to who macros better, etc).
On July 28 2012 02:07 Maxtor wrote: One of the few, it appears, that actually enjoyed the series, quite happy since i called seed winning this before RO8. I'll admit pvp is not the most entertaining MU but for a PvP series it looked like the highest quality one can find. Congratulations to the champion, i really hope he maintains this exceptionally high level play and doesn't do a jjakji.
I'm not so sure. It was build order wins and some mind games. I don't want to take anything away from your win, Seed, but as a viewer I saw 2x 4-gate warp prisms, that just won. Game 4 was some cheese from MC, that also just won, and Game 5 was mediocre, since there Seed was alsways ahead and won the final confrontation.
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
it was a translation D:
though MC enjoys using english enough, so I get the confusion
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
it was a translation D:
though MC enjoys using english enough, so I get the confusion
I checked, and while translators aren't that great(I use nicetranslator, one of the better) it didn't come up with anything near the destroy thing you said he tweeted :s
Maybe you did loose translation? he say something about wcg tommorw that he will come back then
I like the PvP matchup, I liked these finals. The only real disappointment was that we didn't get to see a proper range of PvP play. Despite what some people say its more than just one-base all-ins and MC could have (and should have) been able to stay safe whilst protecting himself and expanding which would have demonstrated that. But he didn't, he played very sloppily and got rolled over.
I'm surprised at quite how poorly MC played here actually considering how handily he destroyed DRG the other week and how well he was doing on the way to the finals. He just got absolutely crushed by Seed. Completely out-microd and out-thought. I guess you could put it down to a bad day, but still a hugely disappointing performance from him.
Delighted for Seed though. And as a Protoss absolutely no complaints about another championship and, perhaps more importantly, a second name on the roll of honour.
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
it was a translation D:
though MC enjoys using english enough, so I get the confusion
I checked, and while translators aren't that great(I use nicetranslator, one of the better) it didn't come up with anything near the destroy thing you said he tweeted :s
Maybe you did loose translation? he say something about wcg tommorw that he will come back then
......
would it kill you to take my word for it, you not reading Korean, google translate being awful, and me having done this thing for a really long time ?
I'm a huge MC fan but still I was cheering for Seed to win. I felt like if Seed would win he would gain more. Even so this was pretty big win for LG-IM too.
On July 28 2012 02:54 Lightspeaker wrote: I like the PvP matchup, I liked these finals. The only real disappointment was that we didn't get to see a proper range of PvP play. Despite what some people say its more than just one-base all-ins and MC could have (and should have) been able to stay safe whilst protecting himself and expanding which would have demonstrated that. But he didn't, he played very sloppily and got rolled over.
I'm surprised at quite how poorly MC played here actually considering how handily he destroyed DRG the other week and how well he was doing on the way to the finals. He just got absolutely crushed by Seed. Completely out-microd and out-thought. I guess you could put it down to a bad day, but still a hugely disappointing performance from him.
Delighted for Seed though. And as a Protoss absolutely no complaints about another championship and, perhaps more importantly, a second name on the roll of honour.
Saying he got outmicroed tbh, was quite wrong. I think he still microed better than seed(the lift into warpprism is quite easy actually, just means he know how to use his tools at his disposal, but easy to execute). He was just caught off guard, with an army, twice, designed to deffend at the ramp. Sentries in pvp really is bad, unlike other matchups. A sentry does decent dmg to marines, and also zerglings, while in PvP they are useless except for their abilities, since both zealot and stalker is very very strong against them. The first games with warp prism, really just an insanely small mistake, but costs you greatly - just as tastosis said btw, that build would only work vs a super human as MC, since he would build just enough, to hold off anything at his ramp.
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
it was a translation D:
though MC enjoys using english enough, so I get the confusion
I checked, and while translators aren't that great(I use nicetranslator, one of the better) it didn't come up with anything near the destroy thing you said he tweeted :s
Maybe you did loose translation? he say something about wcg tommorw that he will come back then
I checked the twitter. MC clearly said "I.Will.Destroy.You". Here is MC's tweet "아직 끝난게 아닙니다 다시 올라올께요 ^_^ 끝으로 상원이형 축하하고 다음에 다시 만나면 부.숴.버.리.겠.다 내일 wcg에서 뵈요" Translated: It's not over yet! I will be up there again! FInally, Congrats to Seed and if we meet again, I.Will.Destroy.You. See you at WCG tmr!!
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
it was a translation D:
though MC enjoys using english enough, so I get the confusion
I checked, and while translators aren't that great(I use nicetranslator, one of the better) it didn't come up with anything near the destroy thing you said he tweeted :s
Maybe you did loose translation? he say something about wcg tommorw that he will come back then
......
would it kill you to take my word for it, you not reading Korean, google translate being awful, and me having done this thing for a really long time ?
I'm not saying you are wrong, would just like to know exactly where he said it? :S more details. I know translates are bad, just wanted to know it more in depth
- he wrote 3 things 5 hours ago when he got back from finals, which one was to JYP so the long or short one, and which part -perhabs all of it translated? :D
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
it was a translation D:
though MC enjoys using english enough, so I get the confusion
I checked, and while translators aren't that great(I use nicetranslator, one of the better) it didn't come up with anything near the destroy thing you said he tweeted :s
Maybe you did loose translation? he say something about wcg tommorw that he will come back then
Wax why do you continue to lie to us?!
OT, whatever anyone says the finals can never be as bad as Inca vs Nestea. I'm not sure how and why people were expecting awesome games, it's a Bo7 PvP.
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
it was a translation D:
though MC enjoys using english enough, so I get the confusion
I checked, and while translators aren't that great(I use nicetranslator, one of the better) it didn't come up with anything near the destroy thing you said he tweeted :s
Maybe you did loose translation? he say something about wcg tommorw that he will come back then
Wax why do you continue to lie to us?!
OT, whatever anyone says the finals can never be as bad as Inca vs Nestea. I'm not sure how and why people were expecting awesome games, it's a Bo7 PvP.
PvP within last months has often been absoloutly amazing, Seed said he wanted to display good games for fans, while he played well he did some strategies that are less than fun to spectate - go see squirtle vs MC this gsl season as well, game on metropolis was amazing.
The thing that made this GSL so amazing is the amount of respect between the two players imo. The stories of both of them and the entire interview they had, the friendly bantering and everything made it such a great preformance by either of them regardless of the outcome i was pretty happy.
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
it was a translation D:
though MC enjoys using english enough, so I get the confusion
I checked, and while translators aren't that great(I use nicetranslator, one of the better) it didn't come up with anything near the destroy thing you said he tweeted :s
Maybe you did loose translation? he say something about wcg tommorw that he will come back then
Wax why do you continue to lie to us?!
OT, whatever anyone says the finals can never be as bad as Inca vs Nestea. I'm not sure how and why people were expecting awesome games, it's a Bo7 PvP.
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
it was a translation D:
though MC enjoys using english enough, so I get the confusion
I checked, and while translators aren't that great(I use nicetranslator, one of the better) it didn't come up with anything near the destroy thing you said he tweeted :s
Maybe you did loose translation? he say something about wcg tommorw that he will come back then
I checked the twitter. MC clearly said "I.Will.Destroy.You". Here is MC's tweet "아직 끝난게 아닙니다 다시 올라올께요 ^_^ 끝으로 상원이형 축하하고 다음에 다시 만나면 부.숴.버.리.겠.다 내일 wcg에서 뵈요" Translated: It's not over yet! I will be up there again! FInally, Congrats to Seed and if we meet again, I.Will.Destroy.You. See you at WCG tmr!!
I'm also confirming that MC said this. The tweet is not a lie, do not ever use online translators please.
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
it was a translation D:
though MC enjoys using english enough, so I get the confusion
I checked, and while translators aren't that great(I use nicetranslator, one of the better) it didn't come up with anything near the destroy thing you said he tweeted :s
Maybe you did loose translation? he say something about wcg tommorw that he will come back then
Wax why do you continue to lie to us?!
OT, whatever anyone says the finals can never be as bad as Inca vs Nestea. I'm not sure how and why people were expecting awesome games, it's a Bo7 PvP.
PvP within last months has often been absoloutly amazing, Seed said he wanted to display good games for fans, while he played well he did some strategies that are less than fun to spectate - go see squirtle vs MC this gsl season as well, game on metropolis was amazing.
Yeah occasionally you get the decent game or two, but when it comes down to it it's just a series of 1 base all ins, base races and War of the Worlds turtle fests where whoever gets the first volley off wins. The chances of having an actually good PvP Bo7 at the moment are slim.
What a run for LG-IMSeed this season the world bet against him every round, two awesome comebacks one against symbol who was at the time ripping through everyone in the gsl the gstl and almost everywhere else. Look i mean he didnt just beat symbol he seems to have broken him symbol has been playing as well since since that thrashing seed gave him. Then he faced Byun and again had an awesome comback. Now he completely dominated MC in the finals, Call me crazy but Seed gave us one hell of a story this season. But alas MC fan boys shall cry and GSL has gotten a new Villian. congrats Seed you were my second pick after Nestea. LG_IM FIGHTING!!!!!!!
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
it was a translation D:
though MC enjoys using english enough, so I get the confusion
I checked, and while translators aren't that great(I use nicetranslator, one of the better) it didn't come up with anything near the destroy thing you said he tweeted :s
Maybe you did loose translation? he say something about wcg tommorw that he will come back then
Wax why do you continue to lie to us?!
OT, whatever anyone says the finals can never be as bad as Inca vs Nestea. I'm not sure how and why people were expecting awesome games, it's a Bo7 PvP.
PvP within last months has often been absoloutly amazing, Seed said he wanted to display good games for fans, while he played well he did some strategies that are less than fun to spectate - go see squirtle vs MC this gsl season as well, game on metropolis was amazing.
Yeah occasionally you get the decent game or two, but when it comes down to it it's just a series of 1 base all ins, base races and War of the Worlds turtle fests where whoever gets the first volley off wins. The chances of having an actually good PvP Bo7 at the moment are slim.
Since when is chaos not fun to watch? You sir are a very odd one :s
Good stuff, really glad seed won. Nothing wrong with 1 basing if its the most effective strat for the situation, Seed played to win, not to have macro game practice. I'm really liking this guy, cold-hearted winner.
Really happy that Seed won. The only bad thing could be that we might be seeing a lot of warp prism 4 gates in PvPs on the ladder now. I wonder if there's a guide on how to stop that. Anyways PvP has always been a cheesy game to play. Any Protoss knows that losing to another Protoss especially by a Shenanigan build leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
Can only hope HoTS changes things. But so far I'm liking the new Terran and Zerg units much better.
Whomever expanded lost except in the final game. I was hoping it'd be a clinic on PvP but what I saw was not much different than the PvP of 2 years ago.
PvP is also the most prone to upsets. I wish it was more like TvT.
On July 27 2012 22:44 TheDougler wrote: Nice recap. Is that true about MC's tweet?
Nope, TL like to lie in their articles for kicks and giggles
What was production/crowd/stage like? Pity that stuff wasn't mentioned here, I'd really like to know what the event was like and how it matched up to other finals, sc2 and bw alike.
the sarcasm level is getting too deep, and there may be romanians reading, so yes, the tweet is real
He never tweeted that, I have MC twitter. He wrote something in korean but it was very long texts, and perhabs it was in there, but then you kinda took something out of context I guess :s
it was a translation D:
though MC enjoys using english enough, so I get the confusion
I checked, and while translators aren't that great(I use nicetranslator, one of the better) it didn't come up with anything near the destroy thing you said he tweeted :s
Maybe you did loose translation? he say something about wcg tommorw that he will come back then
Wax why do you continue to lie to us?!
OT, whatever anyone says the finals can never be as bad as Inca vs Nestea. I'm not sure how and why people were expecting awesome games, it's a Bo7 PvP.
PvP within last months has often been absoloutly amazing, Seed said he wanted to display good games for fans, while he played well he did some strategies that are less than fun to spectate - go see squirtle vs MC this gsl season as well, game on metropolis was amazing.
Yeah occasionally you get the decent game or two, but when it comes down to it it's just a series of 1 base all ins, base races and War of the Worlds turtle fests where whoever gets the first volley off wins. The chances of having an actually good PvP Bo7 at the moment are slim.
Since when is chaos not fun to watch? You sir are a very odd one :s
It's fun on occasion. Like a breather from all the actually good games.
On July 27 2012 22:44 Bodzilla wrote: was the most terrible let down for a finals ever.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
It didn't disappoint, wasn't excpecting anything from it :D. I would have been dispointed if there were not a game with war of the world battle where a game ends in matter of second :=). The real finals is tomorow, just hope it won't be one sided
On July 28 2012 03:21 Saronix wrote: Whomever expanded lost except in the final game. I was hoping it'd be a clinic on PvP but what I saw was not much different than the PvP of 2 years ago.
PvP is also the most prone to upsets. I wish it was more like TvT.
The reason MC lost the last game was because his expo was far behind. He was 20 supply ahead and instead of attacking and trying to kill Seed (which he had a good chance to do) and expo'd and Seed easily caught up by going very fast 2 robo colossi prod.
Thank you Seed Only one game got to the insanely boring colossus-stage of PvP, the rest were nice (relatively speaking of course, considering that it was, after all, a Protoss vs Protoss :r) "in your face" style wins... the way you should play SC: to win! If you think the best way is to play a "macro game" -> go for it! If you think the best way is to crush a greedy dude -> go for it!
That being said: Now that we've had a Protoss mirror, can we please establish a rule that prohibits finals from being PvP? t_t
On July 28 2012 00:03 tehemperorer wrote: With this PvP finals under the belt, I wonder if blizzard thinks something should be done about PvP since no one seems to enjoy watching it but it is out there. Its really boring when I play it but it just seems to be a reality of life kinda thing, but how do you make mirror matches fun to watch without screwing up general game balance?
Humm.. "No one seems to enjoy watching it (PvP & Mirror MUs)"
That's one hell of a statement lol. I certainly enjoy mirror MUs, especially PvP, and I don't even play protoss. While you might not like it, it's not a valid reason for blizzard to alter the game for your own little entertainement lol. PvP can be played in so many ways nowadays. In this series, we didn't get to see much, like phoenix builds, immortal / warp prism harass, etc. This series didn't really represent the match up really well IMO.
At least it's balanced! ^_^
Seeeeeeettle down, the general consensus is that the finals was boring and consisted two things: all-ins or colossi battles. You not playing Protoss is precisely why you enjoy mirror MUs, and the same reason that disqualifies you as anyone to talk about it. Why, at the top level of play, do you not see this matchup played in "so many ways?" Why do you think that is? Because it's not viable since nothing is safe. Any gold leaguer can muck around on the ladder with phoenix builds or DT expands, but they won't get you very far because they're not stable. You saying that this series didn't represent the matchup well is totally inaccurate; it summed up why PvP is the way it is: no Protoss defense can be consistently safe against Protoss offense.
Hmmm, I play Protoss and enjoy watching, and playing, PvP. (Although, admittedly, it can get a little annoying.) I especially enjoy the early and mid-game. That said, I do find War of the Worlds Colossi battles boring as an end game.
With regards to your last point, a shield battery tied to a Nexus may help. But that's just speculative theory crafting crap.
On July 27 2012 22:44 Bodzilla wrote: was the most terrible let down for a finals ever.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
Because the finals are everything? To get there, he proved to be a beast in both PvT and PvZ. And now, in the finals, he almost completely owned (4-1 isn't something to be disregarded) the most accomplished (and maybe the best) protoss in the world to prove that his PvP isn't shit either. To me it looks like it was even more of an accomplishment because of this.
On July 27 2012 22:52 garbanzo wrote: Hmm...sounds like a terribly disappointing finals. Just basing it off the recap doesn't seem like either player proved that PvP was all about skill considering the trickery that Seed employed.
Yeah the finals didn't live up to expectations, and yes Seed just played to win rather than to entertain the fans, which looked that MC was gonna do.
Good recap, I think most of the people who were angry are people who don't understand the current PvP MU... because Seed basically played incredibly well (minus 4th game because of cockiness) in a bo7 for PvP
I feel the anger should be directly at the MU balance, rather than the player for not playing longer games.
On July 27 2012 23:35 Aserrin wrote: Deserved champion. Solid through Ro32 and Ro16, upsetting great players such as Curious, TaeJa, SymboL, Byun (both with amazing comebacks) and, of course, steamrolling MC.
Great decision-making and overall smart as hell. Besides being the complete opposite of a choker.
I really liked this guy since the groups selection. Probably the only protoss player I like, even though I don't find P matches enjoyable at all.
P.S: To everyone saying he'll be sort of a 'ghost champion' like Polt and Jjakji... they still are pretty solid players, doing well in team leagues, GSL and other tournaments, being able to take games and matches from the top players. They may not be MVP-Nestea-MC-DRG-MMA tier, but they're the players below those and the 'flavor of the month' tier ones (PartinG, Squirtle, SymboL, etc).
Polt isn't a ghost champion he wins a lot of other stuff, online tournaments and had done well at foreign tournaments this year, with jjaki he hasn't done anything since his championship.
Nice recap! I know this finals was not the longest, or the most epic, but I really enjoyed it! Having it on the beach at Busan was so great. The crowd looked amazing, the production value was off the chart and the best player won at the end of the day. Really pleased for Seed and LG-IM, and thoroughly looking forward to the GSTL finals tomorrow!
Who the fuck is this guy? Phenomenal run, and awesome job beating MC. Too bad for MC that PvP is arguably his worst matchup nowadays. He used to be unstoppable at it.
On July 27 2012 22:44 Bodzilla wrote: was the most terrible let down for a finals ever.
i dont begrudge him his championship, but it's just not the same as one fought over longer games. with the win, the way he did it, he wont cement himself with the likes of nestea, mc MMA DRG or MVP. He's going to have to do it again to actually be considered as one of the better players in the world.
Just because the finals were bad doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be the champion. Seed had some amazing games in the ro4 against Byun and the ro8 against Symbol.
I, as a protoss player, was extremely disappointed in the finals. I was so excited to learn something from the finals as most pvps now revolve around getting your expansion up. This was not the case this time however, seed started the series out with TWO mind game coin flippy builds. Which happened to be the same build. While its MC's fault for trying sentry builds that pretty much defend ANYTHING accept the robo 4gate all in, it was still really boring. Congratulations to Seed on his win, but I'll be rooting against him for along time because of this.
disappointing finals. Seed had some great reads and builds, but BO wins are not entertaining to watch. Only one game in 5 wasn't 'well, i guess he just loses now'
On July 27 2012 23:07 nenshoua wrote: Mirrors show a lot about what the race is about..and when pvp is played to win, this is what we get..toss is most efficient at gimmicky, all - inish play..hopefully things will change with HOTS and play from the likes of hero, sase, puzzle will be more effective than the all inish, ruthless efficiency we see from most toss players.
Actually, Toss is just the least efficient at holding such play. I find all Toss cheese laughably easy to stop in all other matchups (except 3-gate void ray vs Terran, that's a little tough).
That said, MC could have won Game 2 if he'd had his stalkers in position to intercept the warp prism and, IMO, he would have been better off going for a phoenix build, stopping blink-obs and 4-gate warp-prism is fairly simple if you have phoenixes and everything else can be held by immortal-sentry-zealot.
On July 28 2012 07:36 SkaPunk wrote: I, as a protoss player, was extremely disappointed in the finals. I was so excited to learn something from the finals as most pvps now revolve around getting your expansion up. This was not the case this time however, seed started the series out with TWO mind game coin flippy builds. Which happened to be the same build. While its MC's fault for trying sentry builds that pretty much defend ANYTHING accept the robo 4gate all in, it was still really boring. Congratulations to Seed on his win, but I'll be rooting against him for along time because of this.
lol wow. Seed's play is highly intelligent. But, I'll agree the finals were dull it was just too one sided. That's basically standard for sc2 finals though so....
Most of the recent finals have been amazing, actually. I think that's why these finals were such a let down, especially since last season's GSL final was one of the best series of all time (in SC2).
On July 28 2012 09:18 althaz wrote: Most of the recent finals have been amazing, actually. I think that's why these finals were such a let down, especially since last season's GSL final was one of the best series of all time (in SC2).
It certainly was the best ever, I can't remember ever seeing a better series and I've been watching a lot since GSL open season 1. The standard was set very high from that so I understand why people are disappointed this season. Tbh, for me personally it was a pretty good finals, Seed's intelligent play was no doubt too good but with MC you'd somehow believe he can pull off a miracle with perfect micro, hold anything off and win. It didn't happen last night but I still thoroughly enjoyed the finals.
Because MC was the fan favourite, I suppose? Also, MC just did builds much BETTER than anybody else (and he still does that), whereas Seed just lucked (or rather, mind-gamed) into the right build.
Also, MC could have held at least one of those first two all-ins if he'd played better (he wouldn't nessecarily have won, though) and in games four and five he let himself get out of position, despite being ahead both times (game four he had more gates and an expo, game five more colossi).
It was a good finals, altough I'm a bit sad that MC didn't get to pull out his probably awesome prepared build orders. Seed was just too smart for that.
PvP is one of the best matchups today. It's so much more fun to watch and play than TvT and seems slightly more likely to hit lategame than ZvZ. (I don't even want to talk about the horrors of TvZ. PvT is quite fun though. ZvP is okay I guess.)
On July 28 2012 13:24 Cinquedea wrote: Didn't even watch the finals and tbh it sounded embarrassing. Well that's what warpgate does to ya I guess. I haven't watched any PvX for a while now.
and embarrassing it was. i don't understand how noone's written an article about 'how protoss makes sc2 boring' yet.
On July 28 2012 12:28 neptunusfisk wrote: It was a good finals, altough I'm a bit sad that MC didn't get to pull out his probably awesome prepared build orders. Seed was just too smart for that.
PvP is one of the best matchups today. It's so much more fun to watch and play than TvT and seems slightly more likely to hit lategame than ZvZ. (I don't even want to talk about the horrors of TvZ. PvT is quite fun though. ZvP is okay I guess.)
Guess this means PvP is officially the least sophisticated match-up.
Yes, a few games of successfully pulled of non-standard play (that could have been held off with MCs build orders, he was just tricked badly) means that PvP is officially broken, bad, not fun at all and that colossus wars never happens et cetera. I totally dig your point.
It's understandable that PvP is still very much similar to a Rock, Paper, Scissors. However, if people are going to bash Seed for that, then let's add a few things. HuK won the two MLG titles for his PvP, but people don't give him much smack for it. Second, Seed's all-in were at least different except for Game 3. They weren't just 4 gate with proxy pylons. He utilized Warp Prism as a warp-in and a robo proxy. Finally, GSL was always a preparation-based kind of tournament, so you will see a lot of cheesy or build order wins. To me, that's what makes GSL so much more fun than many other tournaments. You will see all kinds of games!
As for Game 5, you didn't see a cheesy game at all. It showcased more of who had the better decision making. Although blink stalker is a superior build, the way MC defended it was pretty bad. His units were in the wrong position at every time. Also, MC was ahead in the colossus count, but Seed played responsively by getting an extra robo. Also, Seed used chargelots to tank and push MC's colossus back into bad engagements. In the end, Seed mentally had this game in the bag.
All-ins aren't great because it doesn't showcase much mechanics and skills as a macro game. But if Starcraft was all about mechanics, then it would be nothing more but a brawns-over-brains kind of game. I think it's a good time to see people like Seed to showcase that a lot of players especially some mechanic-oriented players should start using their brains than just pure mechanics to win the game. Because, to be honest, Starcraft 2 can be a let-down sometimes, when we see very unoriginal dynamics. It's good to see a change-up once in a while. Finally, Starcraft 2 is a strategy game! So, of course, mind games play a big role!
Guess this means PvP is officially the least sophisticated match-up.
Yes, a few games of successfully pulled of non-standard play (that could have been held off with MCs build orders, he was just tricked badly) means that PvP is officially broken, bad, not fun at all and that colossus wars never happens et cetera. I totally dig your point.
Yeah right Mr. Sarcasm, cause PvP has always been such an amazing match-up how unfair from me to make crazy claims and calling it the least sophisticated match-up.
For better or worse we're stuck with an awful mirror match-up until HotS, which should hopefully fix it. It's really pointless to even deny it, no one wanted to see a PvP finals (lots of empty seats) and they were right.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/shiroiusagi/gsl/2012_gsl_season3_finals.jpg)
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