After announcing their partnership with the Korean e-Sports association, Major League Gaming offered TeamLiquid a chance to talk with Senior VP's Adam Apicella and Lee Chen about the details of the partnership, and MLG's league philosophy in a progressively more Korean Starcraft II scene.
TeamLiquid: Let's start off with the question on everyone's mind. What exactly makes this an 'exclusive' partnership?
Lee Chen: Exclusivity is going to be Major League Gaming agreeing to just work with KeSPA, and KeSPA agreeing to just work with Major League Gaming. And that fundamentally means it's two leagues working together in lockstep, coordinating closely with each other, and not really work working with anybody else at a global level.
Adam Apicella: It doesn't mean that players won't attend other events, potentially. It just means that in terms of planning, we are working together, lockstep, in terms of our collective goals for the future.
Okay, so it means that you'll schedule your events around theirs, they'll schedule their events around yours to make sure their guys can go to your events, etc?
LC: Sure, at a basic level, yeah.
If exclusivity doesn't mean that KeSPA players are only playing at MLG events, that they're allowed to go to other events, what's KeSPA getting out of this deal, and what's MLG getting?
LC: Let's be clear on what that means.
If you want a KeSPA player to show up at your event, you have to go through KeSPA. That's the way the pro-gaming licenses work, that's the way KeSPA controls their players. You can't just go to Flash and say “Hey, I'd love for you to come play at MLG Anaheim.” They don't allow that, that's not the way their league is set up. It's similar to a lot of other sports, you don't get to do appearances unless the league approves it. That's how it works with these guys.
I'm not going to say that Flash or Bisu are just going randomly show up at another event because someone extends an invite to them. These guys plays on a really demanding, tight schedule.
But what part of exclusivity means is that if we ask, KeSPA will seriously consider it as opposed to just saying no. So, let's be clear on that, there is special treatment happening here, for the lack of a better term, and that's part of the business relationship. It's not like everybody else gets to just do this, that's not the way this thing works. This is an exclusive partnership on a global level.
AA: I also think we have two distinctly different models, us and KeSPA. I think both of them kind of blended together, us intertwining together and working closely. There's a lot of value and synergy there, and we're going to work together to figure out what the next step is. Behind closed doors, we're fleshing out how we're going to work together this year and next year. I think there's going to be a lot of cool stuff that will come out of this, with our leagues working very, very close together globally.
Would you say it's analogous to what you did with GomTV a while back, when you had your partnership with them?
LC: No, I think it's much, much bigger, and much more than what we did with GomTV. This is actually the relationship we were looking for, and this is the partner that we were looking for in KeSPA, in terms of what we were looking at on a global level for expanding our business. We were really looking for a true global partner that was going to be there with us every step of way, one that thought the same way we did.
I've known the KeSPA guys for years now, and I've been talking to them specifically about becoming partners for a long time. The underlying tenet of it was that we're two leagues – we think of ourselves as a league first, and a production & broadcast company second, KeSPA think of themselves only as a league. So putting a priority on the fairness of competition as being the most important thing, holding that as sacred and really designing everything that you do around that, that's what this relationship is about. That's two leagues meeting eye to eye on every level.
You said this is bigger than anything you've had with Gom. Besides scheduling for each other, and perhaps having KeSPA events at MLG, etc., is there anything else specific you could talk about in terms of cooperation?
LC: Well, KeSPA players will be at Anaheim playing from nine to midnight on Saturday in a single elimination Wings of Liberty tournament. But in future MLG events, you'll be seeing them competing in our bracket, our normal tournament. So that's part of the league exchange, the leagues working together. That's critical from a competition and spectator standpoint.
And there's things like cross training, and trying to bring some of the Korean esports mentality and training mechanisms to the West, and then giving Western players a chance to participate in that kind of training regimen to get better and to learn from the Flash's, Bisus and Storks of the world.
Does that mean MLG will facilitate team house exchanges...
LC: Well not to be vague, but those details aren't final. But those are very core and key concepts to the relationship.
AA: What they've built in Korea around Brood War is just an incredible infrastructure and ecosystem for players. Like Lee said, we would love to have something similar that in the West, so that the skill level is raised through virtue of that regimen and lifestyle. I don't think that's anything that exists outside of Korea right now.
I'm still not getting a good sense of how vastly different this is from the Gom partnership. Giving their players berths in your events seems pretty similar to what you had going on with Gom.
LC: I think what actually went on there was Gom started that relationship with us, then they kind of started those relationships with everybody else, too. Which is great, because they exposed a tremendous number of very talented, great players from the [then] Starcraft II Association and independent teams to the entire world.
But those were all preferential seeding arrangements, the reality is we slotted four players from the current pool of SC II players right into our championship. That's not the relationship we have with KeSPA. There's going to be a qualification process within KeSPA that decides who will get certain spots at MLG events. It's not just a random, abitrary “oh, I love Boxer, we're inviting Boxer,” kind of thing. It's a true league type structure.
So there will be a certain number of KeSPA spots in MLG events, and KeSPA will run qualifiers for those spots?
LC: That format hasn't really been decided yet, but the underlying mechanism will be a fair qualification process.
You're in an exclusive relationship, so would you give KeSPA players some kind of advantage because of it? Such as, they qualify into championship brackets, while other Koreans have to play through the open?
AA: We will continue to have the full scope of qualifications that we currently have, where players on independent teams in their specific region or players affiliated with the Starcraft II federation in Korea etc. can play in the online qualifiers or qualify from the Arenas or a previous Pro Circuits. We will continue to have mechanisms for everybody whether they're KeSPA or not.
LC: Let's be clear on that, because I've seen a lot of stuff on TL or Reddit about how this means that progamer licenses are coming to the West, or that you'll only be able to see these players in the West behind a PPV wall at Arenas, or all kinds of insanity that are based around rumor mongering. I mean, fair enough, we haven't actually said that much about it yet.
This isn't about pay-walling these players, charging an access fee to get to them. This is about bringing the best players in the world together, and giving the viewers in the West a chance to see them play, and helping accommodate for the demanding schedule KeSPA players have in Korea. We're not going to do anything less than we are now, or limit anybody in any way. We're adding on to what we're doing now.
In the mid to long term, would we be looking at something like a Proleague first-half finals event at an MLG?
AA: If we had the opportunity to do that, we'd love to.
LC: We would absolutely love to do that. But bear in mind this is the beginning of an official partnership, so we don't have all the details yet, and we're still figuring out what we can do.
KeSPA has hinted at the creation of a larger, integrated global league in the future. Have you talked about that at all?
LC: Yeah, we absolutely talked about that with them. I think a lot of those were very early, preliminary discussions. Something like setting up a global league between three or four different parties, or even just two, takes a lot of work. This is a global partnership – as very specifically worded in our press release – and a global league is something we're definitely talking about and looking at.
Not to ask you to throw Gom under the bus, but what happened with Gom? It seemed to be going well, and then thing started falling apart rapidly. Now you see them going with IPL, and people are wondering about what happened.
AA: Yes, GSTL finals happened at IPL, but just to be clear, we were offered that before and we didn't want to do it. I mean, we were offered Code S finals at one of our events, and the details of that deal, which will remain behind closed doors, were not something we were interested in.
But as to why the actual partnership ceased, we're not really sure. We're not sure why they revoked NaNiwa's seed...
Oh, that was actually a thing?
LC: I think there was a sequence of events there that we're still not clear on, and we've really felt like we haven't gotten a straight story. We're happy to sit down and chat with Gom, but I think this is one of those thing the community has made a bigger deal out of than it really is. We don't sit around trying to figure out what happened there, because it's pretty clear that their priorities were elsewhere.
So it fizzled out, and here we are?
LC: Which is fine, because people end up with different priorities as business evolves, and ours took a different turn.
AA: We also wanted to get away from any type of subjective entrance into our championship pools, so the League Exchange Program as it existed wasn't going to continue. We wanted to implement global qualification measures, and we speculate that might have affected it, but again, we don't know for sure.
LC: We don't spend a whole lot of time thinking about it.
You can see why the exclusivity would be good for MLG, from a business standpoint. Could you tell the fans why it's good for them, why they should be happy about one organization getting the so called special treatment in terms of getting KeSPA players.
LC: Bear in mind – and I've said this in my State of the Game interview earlier on – that KeSPA has never done a league partnership in its entire history. Yes, Korean players have played in WCG and Blizzcon. But they were playing as individuals at WCG, that was not a league partnership. And Blizzcon, Blizzard owns the game.
KeSPA was not going to allow their players to play outside of Korea unless it was with a partner. MLG, too, has never had a league partnership – I mean we've done collaborations with a lot of leagues, like giving DreamHack a qualification spot into Spring Arena II – but we've never actually done a real league partnership in our history.
AA: We've never even been open to it. We've never offered anybody the deal we're doing with KeSPA because we've never had somebody we felt had the similar core values we had, about how we position our league and view it.
Not only has KeSPA never done a partnership with any leagues prior, but it's also a schedule thing for them. Proleague is similar to GSL in that it requires ton of the players' time just to play their matches, and their practice regimen is insane. I don't know how much time they could feasibly fit into their schedules to go to other events, based on their current routine.
I also think that KeSPA is very particular and careful. They want to make sure their players are represented in a certain way, and I wouldn't say they're completely comfortable yet with every tournament out there being able to present their players, and treat their players the way they expect.
What's the value of KeSPA for you right now? Gom objectively has the better players right now, KeSPA guys have the fame and rep the Brood War community has spread to the SC II community. You could almost say it's an investment – what kind of benefits does this have over a relationship with an organization like Gom that actually has the skilled players at present?
LC: I think a lot of this is philosophical, and I don't mean that we're going to be creating a pro license program or anything like that, but at one of the fundamental, underlying tenets of this relationship is that KeSPA operates as a league, trying to advance a sport. That's the common basis for understanding, the common basis for dialogue. That's really what this relationship is about.
Players like Bisu, Jaedong, Stork, etc., we don't know what they're going to do. I personally think they're going to absolutely kick ass when they convert over to Starcraft II, but that could take a little while. Six months, a year, three months? Who knows? And taking nothing away from the MKPs, the MMAs, and DRGs of the world, those guys have had more time. So I'm actually curious to see who's going to win.
But if you're talking about what's in the KeSPA relationship for us right now, that's not really about the players. I mean sure, part of it's about access to stars, and giving them a chance to shine on the global stage like we did with MMA, DRG, and the rest of the guys. But that's not all that this relationship is about. This relationship is about building something that is global, about building an eSports program that spans the entire world. That we all have a chance to be part of a 120,000 large crowd watching eSports on a beach, not only in South Korea. It could be in Brazil, or Orlando, something that's a true world championship that brings together the best players in the world.
AA: Also, let's be realistic here. This game has been out for what, two years? And an expansion's coming out very soon. To say that the competitive landscape today is going to be the same six months from now is insanity. This scene as a whole, is going to change, just based on the expansion alone.
Players come out even now that invent new ways to play when everyone thinks they have everything figured out. We're all fooling ourselves if we think that we're in the golden age of Starcraft. It's still growing, it's still evolving, it's still changing, and it's only going to get bigger.
Having heard the four party cooperation announcement from Blizzard, KesPA, GomTV, and OGN, what's ideal for MLG in terms of how the Korean market plays out from here?
LC: Not only do we have a strong partnership with KeSPA – signed, sealed, and delivered if you will – but we also have very deep ties and a very strong relationship with OGN, and obviously we're working very closely with Blizzard at a lot of levels, too.
Regarding the Korean scene, let me be clear: We're not interested in operating in Korea. That's not why we are partnering with KeSPA, or talking with OGN. It has nothing to do with that.
Could you elaborate on the OnGameNet thing? There's nothing official I've heard.
LC: There's nothing official about it, we've been talking, we've known the OnGameNet guys for a long time. I've known them since 2005 or so? They're a bunch of really cool, really sharp dudes. I think that some of the stuff they're doing around League of Legends among other things is pretty awesome.
But there's nothing official there, we just have a strong relationship with them. Just periodically we throw things across the pond and see what happens.
A lot of people are concerned about too many Koreans in leagues. Add another 200 Koreans or so from KeSPA... Even if not all of them are good, another ten at the top would kill off the foreigners who even had a chance. What do you guys think about that situation, if it should come to pass in that kind of worst-possible-scenario way?
AA: I always want to have the best players playing in our events, and I want to create an environment where our seeding and our tournament structure places deserving players into brackets or pools based on performance and not through subjective invites. I want the tournament environment we create to allow the best player to win a match, and the best player to win the tournament. Regardless of nationality or anything else, that is the cornerstone of our league philosophy, and I don't think that has anything to do with more Koreans in the bracket. As a fan of competition, I don't think that should turn off people.
But like we said earlier, bringing something that's been present in Seoul to North American, to create that environment there, hopefully we'll be able to come up with ways to have the Western scene potentially have similar things that happen in Korea to create that farm system, that ecosystem where players can train. Where they understand that lifestyle is required to compete on that level.
LC: At least from MLG's perspective, we pay travel right now for 16 players to every single Pro Circuit championship. So that's 48 flights right there, flights, hotels, meals, expenses. Each Arena is 8 to 32 players, that's over 200 flights and hotels total. New York hotel rates being what they are, you're talking about over half a million dollars in travel. But there's only so much money we can afford to do that with until we start growing up.
The concern of there being too many Koreans in this, as Adam said, our league is about the best player winning, regardless of nationality. The skill level of Koreans happens to be higher right now, then I think that's on everybody in the Western scene to try and elevate skill level in the West. Some of the things we'll be announcing with KeSPA will hopefully help that.
But it's also just a little bit silly to say that there's nothing but Koreans there, because that's patently untrue. There's 272 players in our regular Starcraft II tournaments – Anaheim will be slightly less because we're also doing the US nationals with Blizzard there – but that's a lot of players. Now what happens in the final 16, in the championship bracket? That's skill driven. That's about who's a better player.
AA: I think we'll continue have a global mechanism of qualification into events. I think one of the things we are going to have to talk about internally down the road is how strict will we be with what region you can play in. Can you play in North American qualifiers from Seoul, etc. That's something we need to talk about internally, but that's something I can see where we make sure that regions are represented accordingly at events. Once they're there, the best man wins.
LC: Yeah, that's how Blizzard does the World Championship Series. You can only play in a nation's qualifiers if you have a passport from that nation or a citizenship.
Would it be right in saying that you believe that your core audience, for the most part, doesn't care so much about a player's nationality, race, or what language they speak – it's more about pure skill.
LC: I think a fan is a fan. Whether you're driven to be a fan of someone because you think that they're an amazing player, or for example, because you like Lebron James' personality, that's up to you, that's an individual choice.
But the league, is about skill. Fandom is a completely different thing.
AA: If we ran an event in Sweden, I'm sure that the fans there would want DreamHack Stockholm to happen again, where ThorZaIN wins, regardless of whether people think he's the best player in the world or not.
I think you're right, regional fans are super important to this, and that aspiration [for national heroes] needs to exist, but like Lee said, as a league we want the best player to win regardless of nationality.
But you're not a purely competitive league, you're a business. And from a business standpoint, you want the most fans, and to get the most fans, you need to figure out what the most fans want.
AA: As a business though, it really delegitimizes the idea of the league, if we're being too subjective in who we invite.
So as a business, yeah, we do want more fans, we want to have the regional favorites at our events. But as a league, the cornerstone of what we do has to be sacred. If that's not sacred, then we have nothing to stand on.
Okay, any final comments you'd like to make?
LC: Since we started off on the topic of the MLG-KeSPA partnership, we're really excited about the relationship and where we can take this with them. Also, this is an equal relationship. I think the popular perception out there right now is that one party is getting more out of it than the other, people feel like there's an advantage to one side, but it's very much an equal partnership..
AA: What's going on with this partnership, what we've already announced, this is the infancy of this relationship in what we're going to do together. The stuff that we're talking about doing later on is going to be really awesome for the scene.
Nice interview. I think it's great they cleaned up the confusion. I still hope we will see Kespa players at other events too, but at least having them at MLG isn't too bad.
This seems to support the idea that KeSPA wasn't going to do anything without some official partnership, given the tight control they want to maintain over their players. It would be nice to see them at other events though.
I think the bw-player tournament at anaheim will be pretty lackluster. the current sc2 pros have a huge skill lead atm, and it'll show when you have two tournaments next to each other.
good interview. will be interesting to see how this all pans out. can't say that I like that kespa are so restrictive to what their players can play in, seems to me that it just hurts the starcraft scene in general.
Wow guys. Absolutely fantastic interview. I couldn't think of more direct pointed questions to ask if I tried. Great stuff, and great responses. I'm absolutely stoked for Kespa SC2. Go MLG et al!
On May 16 2012 00:16 Aunvilgod wrote: I don´t like this. MLG is getting too much power and MLG has shown that they are more interested in money than any other organzation.
I don't think that's a bad thing. While they certainly more focused on making money, they are trying to do it by focus on quality of the content, which is a very good thing for everyone. A long-lasting business model is certainly needed, which require more than love of the game.
I'm not liking this partership... KeSPA and MLG seem to have too much power on their hands and I just hope gom does't fall out of the map like happened with GOM Starleague.
I really, really dislike this exclusivity between gom and kespa. If gom players are denied access to these seedings than kespa players are getting advantages that gom players can't get.Thats bullshit for competition. Competition is about creating a competitive, and equal environment for all the players.
On May 16 2012 00:24 ThePhan2m wrote: why cant they put some of that expenses on players and expand their prizepools?
Believe it or not, a lot of teams and players actually appreciate the expenses being covered regardless of where you place rather than playing for a bigger number that they might not even see a share of.
So, unproven kespa players will get an advantage over the actual gom sc2 stars like MVP, MMA, MC etc ? I hope not, it sounds so unfair. Doesn't look good for european tournaments either.
While it might be a good development in that companies are trying to create profitable business models, this deal does feel kind of awkward. At first I was pretty confident this deal would be for the good but this interview stated some things that suddenly make the deal sound much more like an oligopoly. While oligopolies (spelling?) are sort of common in the business world, I have a hard time understanding how this could be good for making the game more popular as a spectator sport.
Reading this interview just after I woke up seriously made my morning. Thank you TL and MLG, I'm really looking forward to the future of the MLG-KesPA partnership and I will be there at MLG Anaheim!
I don't really get the whole "players have to get an authorization from Kespa to play in another league". I mean, I get it from MLG/Kespa POV as they get the exclusivity on top players, but I don't see how this could benefit SC2 as a whole.
This seems really bad for foreign tournaments wanting to invite koreans (dreamhack, homestorycup, ironsquid). Basically, MLG/Kespa will have a monopoly on top players. If we had this situation when SC2 started, a lot of the high quality foreign tournaments would never have developed.
MLG keeps saying it's an equal partnership. So are they paying them or something? It does not seem like an equal partnership to this point, so there must be some hidden stuff.
Awesome for fans but it might suck for some players. Top 32 all Koreans? Very possible in the future. And the thing about Kespa is, they never let their players play in another league.. it's always been this way. In fact, they will publicly humiliate you through media etc if you break their rules. Honestly speaking, I think it's better for fans and the players if everyone can decide where they want to play. Personally, I don't like these exclusivity they have over certain players.
On May 16 2012 01:00 31415926535 wrote: I don't really get the whole "players have to get an authorization from Kespa to play in another league". I mean, I get it from MLG/Kespa POV as they get the exclusivity on top players, but I don't see how this could benefit SC2 as a whole.
This seems really bad for foreign tournaments wanting to invite koreans (dreamhack, homestorycup, ironsquid). Basically, MLG/Kespa will have a monopoly on top players. If we had this situation when SC2 started, a lot of the high quality foreign tournaments would never have developed.
With the GSL and Proleague Season 2 and even MLG, i doubt many korean players will go to other foreign tournament apart from MLG.
On May 16 2012 01:00 31415926535 wrote: I don't really get the whole "players have to get an authorization from Kespa to play in another league". I mean, I get it from MLG/Kespa POV as they get the exclusivity on top players, but I don't see how this could benefit SC2 as a whole.
This seems really bad for foreign tournaments wanting to invite koreans (dreamhack, homestorycup, ironsquid). Basically, MLG/Kespa will have a monopoly on top players. If we had this situation when SC2 started, a lot of the high quality foreign tournaments would never have developed.
With the GSL and Proleague Season 2 and even MLG, i doubt many korean players will go to other foreign tournament apart from MLG.
Will Kespa players be even allowed to play in GSL ?
On May 16 2012 01:00 31415926535 wrote: I don't really get the whole "players have to get an authorization from Kespa to play in another league". I mean, I get it from MLG/Kespa POV as they get the exclusivity on top players, but I don't see how this could benefit SC2 as a whole.
This seems really bad for foreign tournaments wanting to invite koreans (dreamhack, homestorycup, ironsquid). Basically, MLG/Kespa will have a monopoly on top players. If we had this situation when SC2 started, a lot of the high quality foreign tournaments would never have developed.
With the GSL and Proleague Season 2 and even MLG, i doubt many korean players will go to other foreign tournament apart from MLG.
Will Kespa players be even allowed to play in GSL ?
Well that is a good question. I was under the assumption that Kespa players will be allowed to play in GSL and then GOM players(MMA,DRG,MKP,MVP) are allowed to play in the Proleague Season 2 once the full transition happens at October.
Not like KeSPA have any choice. As good as their players are, they need a year to catch up current top level SC2 player. A year of sub-par competition would totally destroy the KeSPA brand, so they have to infuse players from current player pool. What happens next would be interesting though.
On May 16 2012 00:16 Aunvilgod wrote: I don´t like this. MLG is getting too much power and MLG has shown that they are more interested in money than any other organzation.
That's funny, because if there is anyone here that puts greed above all is Gom. Inviting foreigners who haven't earned the privilege of playing in code s just to get more tickets, prime examples are Idra and Sen who got owned and proved they had no business being there. Just gom trying to make more money off of their fans.
I prefer MLG making money and growing, they want to support the foreign scene more than anyone at the moment. Hating them because they want to make money OFF OF their BUSINESS is just silly, that's the goal of all these organizations.
On May 15 2012 23:47 ragz_gt wrote: I kinda get what they are saying, but I can't be the only one who feels they came off sounding like a-holes right?
You probably are. What did you want them to say? When someone asks a retarded question like "But you're not a purely competitive league, you're a business. And from a business standpoint, you want the most fans, and to get the most fans, you need to figure out what the most fans want." What fucking professional league isn't a business? Is this some "businesses are inherently evil and everything they do is suspect and void of good intentions" bullshit question? How are they supposed to respond when someone outright questions their integrity? This entire interview oozes with suspicion and judgement and general negativity from the interviewer, so I don't how they were so supposed to respond differently than they did.
Are they a-holes because things fell through with GomTV? Look at that from MLG's standpoint--those players were definitely receiving preferential treatment, and MLG clearly doesn't want that preferential treatment to exist. Look at how much of their prize pool have in the past gone to people who received arbitrary invitations, people who didn't go through any type of qualifier to participate in pool play--those players won (and earned and deserved) the prize they received, but it does strike as being unfair and inequitable to players who do have to qualify through normal means; especially since GomTV started doing this with other leagues, making the MLG connection less special and clearly indicating that GomTV had no problem exploiting other leagues by having their players placed in favorable positions. Furthermore, sometimes business relationships just don't work out; clearly, there are important philosophical differences between the way GomTV and MLG are run that simply don't allow for a long-term relationship.
Also, if you're going to say people come off sounding like a-holes, maybe try writing a bit more to elaborate -- you won't come across as quibbling, and you might realize your initial impression is mistaken when you take the time to think it through and ultimately decide not to post a half-baked thought.
On May 16 2012 01:00 31415926535 wrote: I don't really get the whole "players have to get an authorization from Kespa to play in another league". I mean, I get it from MLG/Kespa POV as they get the exclusivity on top players, but I don't see how this could benefit SC2 as a whole.
This seems really bad for foreign tournaments wanting to invite koreans (dreamhack, homestorycup, ironsquid). Basically, MLG/Kespa will have a monopoly on top players. If we had this situation when SC2 started, a lot of the high quality foreign tournaments would never have developed.
With the GSL and Proleague Season 2 and even MLG, i doubt many korean players will go to other foreign tournament apart from MLG.
Will Kespa players be even allowed to play in GSL ?
I doubt it, Kespa will be Kespa they will not just change there way of business because of a new game. This exclusive partnership kinda shows it.
They want to be top dog, same as MLG, i can respect that just wonder what it will do for us af viewers and more important players and other (non) Kespa events.
I like that you didnt stop with the questioning when they were..less eager.. to come forward with a staight answer. My current feeling on the 'global' partnership between the two is fairly neutral. I'll see how this plays out because I dont want to look like a fool for guessing wrong.
The best thing to come out of this interview is hands down that they are going to rethink the way the region specific qualifiers work. It shouldnt have taken so long to realise that the current format isnt quite right, although I appreciate they have a lot on their plate right now.
Can't help but think that this is going to be controversial - not sure where I stand on this issue yet - but it's like having NBA league moving into some other country where they already have their own pro basketball league.
As much as I support KeSPa moving into SC2, I'm not sure how I'd feel about them isolating and potentially killing off GOM when they already did so much work establishing SC2 as a pro gaming scene.
I don't get it.... MLG can do their thing if they wanted to.... we'll just bring iNControl over to Sweden for another DH and beat your ratings and surpass the "shock and awe" you MLG-fanatics so vigorously described at MLG Anaheim last year.... besides who actually gets offended if a company actually tries to monetize/industrialize E-.sports? all it does it push forward the date for when we have ACTUAL televised matches on your local news network..... Canal+(CanalDigital in Scandinavia) Sky Sports (Sky Network in GB+ most of Europe) and ESPN for the US ..... isn't that the end goal/point of the whole attempt to make esports professional?
I really have lost a lot of respect for MLG. I love watching their events, the production is great, great players compete and the commentators are good too. But they still don't have big enough prize pools, they make the lesser known players play through extremely difficult open brackets and let fan favourites into the much more forgiving pool play(either by picking 4 liked Koreans from GSL eg.boxer or by "seeding" in players like incontrol and machine). Its as if the player is always put last. Then they go off and say: "But as a league, the cornerstone of what we do has to be sacred. If that's not sacred, then we have nothing to stand on." Seems to me like they now have nothing to stand on since they are about to let people who have barely played SC2 have spots in their event purely because they have a lot of fans willing to pay to see them. Why not let them join via open qualifiers so it is fair on everyone?
So long as MLG get to show the fan favourites being casted by well known casters they will make their money so it's ok (I thought I saw somewhere that the casters got paid more then the players- not 100% sure though). The people who don't finish high don't really get any money at all and even those who do well don't get as much as the players who do well in IPL or NASL, they still show their events at times that don't suit Europe and they always give off the impression that all they care about is money and power. It seems unfair how they have become known as the major non-Korean event.
Its as if they abused their high viewership nubers to get GOM to send players over just so MLG could get even more viewers and now that kespa has joined the scene MLG just leave GOM and do the same thing with kespa. They blame GOM for not seeding naniwa but I though it was MLGs job to get naniwa that seed, they promised it to him it but did not even check with GOM if he had it. They could hardly claim to be a partner with GOM if they did not even know GOM had a new format. Does this not hint towards them not trying to get nani his seed? and now they blame GOM and give that as their reason for ending the partnership. Once again not caring at all about their players, just trying to get more viewers.
Am i the only one, who thinks this interview was terribly uninformative?
A lot of the questions about the KeSPA partnership were answered how its the first time for both to coorparate one such a scale and so on and so forth, but not actually stating what excactly will happen in this year or what the further goal is even more in the future. Of course they said, they want to bring the KeSPA players to the west, and maybe bring some foreigners to the to korea, but for me it feal like, they both signed an empty contract and still figuring out what to do next.
Also they needed to be asked 3 times to clarify their opinion about less and less chances for foreign players to compete successful at MLG and the potential loose of fans watching the competition. I think most people rooting for foreigners who get far in the tounament instead of the mass of koreans (besides maybe one or two fanfavourites). A lack of foreigners makes MLG a lot more uninteresting, even if the play is not top-notch compared to the korean guys. You already see, that basicly no europeans attending in the open bracket anymore, because its just not worth the money to fly over. And MLG can't tell me, that they allways want to see the best player win. Of course they hope, that at least a handfull of foreigers do well in the up and coming arenas, so they will attend the Pro Circuit. I think it would be horrible, to see only koreans in the pool play.
For me, this interview is as uninformative, as the KeSPA/Blizzard/OGN/Gom conference. Its just announcing, that they are now partnered without telling what the overall plan is in the future. I mean, it's basicly clear to everyone, that they will ship the BW players over but i dont heard anything interresting new since the announcement of the partnership a few days ago.
I also don't know much more about this "players licencing" and what the real deal with it is.
In my opinion MLG should try to focus more about the facts when dooing interviews instead of just talking around the situation without stating anything. I like the threads from the MLG Account oder MLG Officials here on TL because, they are informative and you can see whats going on a the next MLG/Arena/Whatever, but this interview and both latest two SOTG interviews were just beating around the bush with leaving more questions for the viewers then before.
On May 16 2012 02:02 Adellund wrote: I don't get it.... MLG can do their thing if they wanted to.... we'll just bring iNControl over to Sweden for another DH and beat your ratings and surpass the "shock and awe" you MLG-fanatics so vigorously described at MLG Anaheim last year.... besides who actually gets offended if a company actually tries to monetize/industrialize E-.sports? all it does it push forward the date for when we have ACTUAL televised matches on your local news network..... Canal+(CanalDigital in Scandinavia) Sky Sports (Sky Network in GB+ most of Europe) and ESPN for the US ..... isn't that the end goal/point of the whole attempt to make esports professional?
anyways thats just my 2cents
Why would we want to move to TV? TV is dying man. Also watching an event on TV would be so much worse than watching it on say twitch tv. Theres chat so you can talk with other people, there would be no TV timeouts(which do exist) for commercials. Also Starcraft would be terrible for TV, as matches can go from anywhere between 4 minutes and an hour.
On May 15 2012 23:47 ragz_gt wrote: I kinda get what they are saying, but I can't be the only one who feels they came off sounding like a-holes right?
You probably are. What did you want them to say? When someone asks a retarded question like "But you're not a purely competitive league, you're a business. And from a business standpoint, you want the most fans, and to get the most fans, you need to figure out what the most fans want." What fucking professional league isn't a business? Is this some "businesses are inherently evil and everything they do is suspect and void of good intentions" bullshit question? How are they supposed to respond when someone outright questions their integrity? This entire interview oozes with suspicion and judgement and general negativity from the interviewer, so I don't how they were so supposed to respond differently than they did.
Are they a-holes because things fell through with GomTV? Look at that from MLG's standpoint--those players were definitely receiving preferential treatment, and MLG clearly doesn't want that preferential treatment to exist. Look at how much of their prize pool have in the past gone to people who received arbitrary invitations, people who didn't go through any type of qualifier to participate in pool play--those players won (and earned and deserved) the prize they received, but it does strike as being unfair and inequitable to players who do have to qualify through normal means; especially since GomTV started doing this with other leagues, making the MLG connection less special and clearly indicating that GomTV had no problem exploiting other leagues by having their players placed in favorable positions. Furthermore, sometimes business relationships just don't work out; clearly, there are important philosophical differences between the way GomTV and MLG are run that simply don't allow for a long-term relationship.
Also, if you're going to say people come off sounding like a-holes, maybe try writing a bit more to elaborate -- you won't come across as quibbling, and you might realize your initial impression is mistaken when you take the time to think it through and ultimately decide not to post a half-baked thought.
I posted my post as a genuine question. I like what MLG has done, I think their PPV event + Championship event combination is a more sustainable model than what many others are doing (and I have subscription + spring pass), I like their production and love their quality of competition. But after reading the interview I can't help but think there are something "off". There are answers where I feel they come off either arrogant of a bit whiny, and overall pretty raw. But I don't see anything glaring when I parse it sentence by sentence, which makes me very curious.
On May 16 2012 02:08 paddyz wrote: I really have lost a lot of respect for MLG. I love watching their events, the production is great, great players compete and the commentators are good too. But they still don't have big enough prize pools, they make the lesser known players play through extremely difficult open brackets and let fan favourites into the much more forgiving pool play(either by picking 4 liked Koreans from GSL eg.boxer or by "seeding" in players like incontrol and machine). Its as if the player is always put last. Then they go off and say: "But as a league, the cornerstone of what we do has to be sacred. If that's not sacred, then we have nothing to stand on." Seems to me like they now have nothing to stand on since they are about to let people who have barely played SC2 have spots in their event purely because they have a lot of fans willing to pay to see them. Why not let them join via open qualifiers so it is fair on everyone?
So long as MLG get to show the fan favourites being casted by well known casters they will make their money so it's ok (I thought I saw somewhere that the casters got paid more then the players- not 100% sure though). The people who don't finish high don't really get any money at all and even those who do well don't get as much as the players who do well in IPL or NASL, they still show their events at times that don't suit Europe and they always give off the impression that all they care about is money and power. It seems unfair how they have become known as the major non-Korean event.
Its as if they abused their high viewership nubers to get GOM to send players over just so MLG could get even more viewers and now that kespa has joined the scene MLG just leave GOM and do the same thing with kespa. They blame GOM for not seeding naniwa but I though it was MLGs job to get naniwa that seed, they promised it to him it but did not even check with GOM if he had it. They could hardly claim to be a partner with GOM if they did not even know GOM had a new format. Does this not hint towards them not trying to get nani his seed? and now they blame GOM and give that as their reason for ending the partnership. Once again not caring at all about their players, just trying to get more viewers.
Taken from the interview:
--------------------------------------------------------------------- interviewer: I'm still not getting a good sense of how vastly different this is from the Gom partnership. Giving their players berths in your events seems pretty similar to what you had going on with Gom.
LC: I think what actually went on there was Gom started that relationship with us, then they kind of started those relationships with everybody else, too. Which is great, because they exposed a tremendous number of very talented, great players from the [then] Starcraft II Association and independent teams to the entire world.
But those were all preferential seeding arrangements, the reality is we slotted four players from the current pool of SC II players right into our championship. That's not the relationship we have with KeSPA. There's going to be a qualification process within KeSPA that decides who will get certain spots at MLG events. It's not just a random, abitrary “oh, I love Boxer, we're inviting Boxer,” kind of thing. It's a true league type structure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom line, fucking read the whole thing, not just the cherry-picked selections that "confirm" your prejudices. I'll quote more from the interview under the question on whether or not KesPa players would get advantages:
--------------------------------------------------------------------- LC: [abridged]...because I've seen a lot of stuff on TL or Reddit about how this means that progamer licenses are coming to the West, or that you'll only be able to see these players in the West behind a PPV wall at Arenas, or all kinds of insanity that are based around rumor mongering... ---------------------------------------------------------------------
And some more:
--------------------------------------------------------------------- interviewer: Not to ask you to throw Gom under the bus, but what happened with Gom? It seemed to be going well, and then thing started falling apart rapidly. Now you see them going with IPL, and people are wondering about what happened.
AA: Yes, GSTL finals happened at IPL, but just to be clear, we were offered that before and we didn't want to do it. I mean, we were offered Code S finals at one of our events, and the details of that deal, which will remain behind closed doors, were not something we were interested in.
But as to why the actual partnership ceased, we're not really sure. We're not sure why they revoked NaNiwa's seed...
interviewer: Oh, that was actually a thing?
LC: I think there was a sequence of events there that we're still not clear on, and we've really felt like we haven't gotten a straight story. We're happy to sit down and chat with Gom, but I think this is one of those thing the community has made a bigger deal out of than it really is. We don't sit around trying to figure out what happened there, because it's pretty clear that their priorities were elsewhere.
Oh noes eSports organizations actually try to make money.
That is bad for eSporst right?
There is nothing wrong with MLG trying to be the best league and to make the most money.eSports needs to make money so that it can be more legit thing.
Absolutely fantastic questions asked by Wax but terribly vague and repetitive answers. MLG's secretive PR is really starting to worry me, and it seems as though it concerns others as well.
Let's be clear on that, because I've seen a lot of stuff on TL or Reddit about how this means that progamer licenses are coming to the West, or that you'll only be able to see these players in the West behind a PPV wall at Arenas, or all kinds of insanity that are based around rumor mongering. I mean, fair enough, we haven't actually said that much about it yet.
This was my favourite part of the interview. Lee criticises the 'rumour mongering' and then retreats when he realises that the rumour mongering is perfectly understandable given MLG's unforthcoming approach to the KESPA deal.
On May 16 2012 03:00 milesfacade wrote: Absolutely fantastic questions asked by Wax but terribly vague and repetitive answers. MLG's secretive PR is really starting to worry me, and it seems as though it concerns others as well.
Let's be clear on that, because I've seen a lot of stuff on TL or Reddit about how this means that progamer licenses are coming to the West, or that you'll only be able to see these players in the West behind a PPV wall at Arenas, or all kinds of insanity that are based around rumor mongering. I mean, fair enough, we haven't actually said that much about it yet.
This was my favourite part of the interview. Lee criticises the 'rumour mongering' and then retreats when he realises that the rumour mongering is perfectly understandable given MLG's unforthcoming approach to the KESPA deal.
From reading the interview, it seems that not all of the details have been figured out. So they can't be forthcoming because not everything is in place. Additionally, you don't know whether or not there's any level of NDA in the agreement MLG and KeSPA came to--they might not be in a position to say anything regarding certain issues. Why not give them time to further figure out what the concrete results of the agreement are going to be before accusing people of being secretive in a "concerning" and "worrying" way? Neither you, me, or anyone else outside of MLG and KeSPA know what is or isn't appropriate to release at this time.
On May 16 2012 02:08 paddyz wrote: I really have lost a lot of respect for MLG. I love watching their events, the production is great, great players compete and the commentators are good too. But they still don't have big enough prize pools, they make the lesser known players play through extremely difficult open brackets and let fan favourites into the much more forgiving pool play(either by picking 4 liked Koreans from GSL eg.boxer or by "seeding" in players like incontrol and machine). Its as if the player is always put last. Then they go off and say: "But as a league, the cornerstone of what we do has to be sacred. If that's not sacred, then we have nothing to stand on." Seems to me like they now have nothing to stand on since they are about to let people who have barely played SC2 have spots in their event purely because they have a lot of fans willing to pay to see them. Why not let them join via open qualifiers so it is fair on everyone?
So long as MLG get to show the fan favourites being casted by well known casters they will make their money so it's ok (I thought I saw somewhere that the casters got paid more then the players- not 100% sure though). The people who don't finish high don't really get any money at all and even those who do well don't get as much as the players who do well in IPL or NASL, they still show their events at times that don't suit Europe and they always give off the impression that all they care about is money and power. It seems unfair how they have become known as the major non-Korean event.
Its as if they abused their high viewership nubers to get GOM to send players over just so MLG could get even more viewers and now that kespa has joined the scene MLG just leave GOM and do the same thing with kespa. They blame GOM for not seeding naniwa but I though it was MLGs job to get naniwa that seed, they promised it to him it but did not even check with GOM if he had it. They could hardly claim to be a partner with GOM if they did not even know GOM had a new format. Does this not hint towards them not trying to get nani his seed? and now they blame GOM and give that as their reason for ending the partnership. Once again not caring at all about their players, just trying to get more viewers.
Dude, have you watched MLG at all this year? You are talking about last season. This year, its completely different.
And about the Europe times, what time do you want MLG to start? Dream Hack didn't air at NA friendly times. You run events at times good for the players at the event first dude.
I'm going to be honest, I'm seeing a double standard here. MLG claim that they want every player to have an equal opportunity and that what matters most is equality and having the most skilled player win every tournament no matter what happens, even to the detriment of foreign players.
However they are giving a select group of players a tournament all to themselves at Anaheim and are allowing them a special seeding into their tournaments exclusively. They complained about GOM giving an advantage to a special few players and that is exactly what they are doing.
I'm all for making money and sustaining the current interest in tournaments and hope this is a success. I just felt that as I read MLG was being very hypocritical.
On May 16 2012 03:00 milesfacade wrote: Absolutely fantastic questions asked by Wax but terribly vague and repetitive answers. MLG's secretive PR is really starting to worry me, and it seems as though it concerns others as well.
Let's be clear on that, because I've seen a lot of stuff on TL or Reddit about how this means that progamer licenses are coming to the West, or that you'll only be able to see these players in the West behind a PPV wall at Arenas, or all kinds of insanity that are based around rumor mongering. I mean, fair enough, we haven't actually said that much about it yet.
This was my favourite part of the interview. Lee criticises the 'rumour mongering' and then retreats when he realises that the rumour mongering is perfectly understandable given MLG's unforthcoming approach to the KESPA deal.
I thought the same thing... I wish they were pressed for more details because there wasn't really anything new in this interview.
The most disapointing thing about this interview is that Adam Acipella's name isn't Adam Acapella. Frankly, this was the only reason I liked MLG. Support withdrawn.
Oh and they were still needlessly vague about the whole exclusivity thing. It's pathetic. I get it, they don't want rocks pelted at them like the PPV thing but guess what, you got a sick deal, take a couple of nut shots and stop pretending that your exclusive deal isn't exclusive just to give the fans some effing transparency. This seems to be the fans greatest problem with MLG, (although I guess I'm speaking personally now but...) love the events, love the arenas, but fuck I feel like I'm being treated like a six year old when Mom and Dad are getting divorced over this GOM thing and then it gets onto something that impacts EVERY OTHER TOURNAMENT I WATCH and they won't even answer straight?
Tedious. Like some chick teasing your balls all night only for her to fuck off to the club with her friends and leaving me thinking, "Fuck that trick-ass hoe-bag MLG bitch. If she don't want the dick, don't ask."
On May 16 2012 06:38 Al Bundy wrote: Thanks for the interview.
Just saying; I'm not going to pay in order to watch my favorite BW players play Sc2.
That's your right. I honestly can't see why they would care though if you say that as if it's your moral code. Give them a chance to create an exciting product and then decide if it's worth any money to you.
On May 16 2012 06:38 Al Bundy wrote: Thanks for the interview.
Just saying; I'm not going to pay in order to watch my favorite BW players play Sc2.
That's your right. I honestly can't see why they would care though if you say that as if it's your moral code. Give them a chance to create an exciting product and then decide if it's worth any money to you.
Alright fair enough, I can do that. Not going to hold my breath but let's wait & see.
[exclusivity] doesn't mean that players won't attend other events, potentially
(ie if we give permission then they might show up at other events, but we're not going to explicitly say that)
...
Let's be clear on what that means.
But what part of exclusivity means is that if we ask, KeSPA will seriously consider it as opposed to just saying no. So, let's be clear on that, there is special treatment happening here, for the lack of a better term, and that's part of the business relationship. It's not like everybody else gets to just do this, that's not the way this thing works. This is an exclusive partnership on a global level.
So much dancing around the part of the answer that they know is unpopular. Sundance already spilled the beans on the mini-SotG, so it's quite frustrating (though understandable) that they're attempting to spin this.
On May 16 2012 00:52 Kilby wrote: I know Orlando is in Florida but does it have a beach?
No. Orlando is located in central Florida. There are lakes though, I'm thinking they possibly mean Lake Buena Vista where an old children's TV show was recorded which had sand, but calling it a beach would be a mistake. Answers from MLG always seem like corporate statements/bulletpoints and if they try to deviate from that they sound poorly thought out.
If it weren't for this deal, KeSPA would have done one of three things:
A) Find another partner for pretty much the same deal. Then the internet just be mad at someone else, though perhaps less so because then it wouldn't come with the preexisting meme that MLG is the corporate overlord trying to take over and squeeze cash out of the SC2 scene.
B) Stay within Korea. Then we just see a whole bunch of bickering on the forums about whether KeSPA or GOM has the real best tournment in the world, but KeSPA players pretty much never play outside tournaments to find out.
C) Die because Blizzard won't let them run tournaments.
We're not going to see a world where option B or C happens, so we just get the one where a bunch of people on TL and Reddit are furious about A, as if KeSPA was just going to willingly release their players to play in Homestory and Iron Squid and GSL and Dreamhack without it.
tbh there is alot of fluff in this interview without any details.. all i get from this is kespa-mlg are "exclusive"? partners and that kespa doesnt partner like this normally? that there will be upcoming "qualification process within KeSPA that decides who will get certain spots at MLG events"... seems a hell of a lot like the gom partnership minues the spot qualifiers .. also does mlg truly believe that flash bisu stork zero ect. will remain exclusive to them for the entirety of sc2? their appeal is very high now, before they even played a competetive game, but if they pull a fin/forgg and fail to meet expectations early, and their popularity decreases, this arrangement will start to crumble. however, i do like the prospect of global league, though nothing is stopping somone like ipl from doing the same without exclusive right from blizzard
I don't understand the part about creating the same ecosystem(training system) as Korea. I mean, to create this ecosystem for what teams ? Kespa created it for their teams, MLG is going to create it for ?
The sodium is really high with these MLG dudes and honestly, it looks like they're not getting anything concrete out of this arrangement. This, to me, appears to be an empty announcement with little to no substance. It remains to be seen what the true international intentions of KeSPA are, if any.
Why does everyone in "business" believe that speaking as unclearly as possible, giving only as much information as necessary and doing everyhting behind closed doors is the only way to go?
Seriously, guys (not only from MLG), ditch that "correctspeak" and say something usefull for once!
Hmm... In some ways this is exciting but something seems a little off. I can't quite put my (proverbial, of course) finger on it. They have to be and act like a business but the way they seem to sidestep some of the tough questions about the potential problems it may cause for the openness of e-sports, the circumstances of their apparent break up with GOM, and their apparent enthusiasm for a closed system like kespa's, especially given their questionable decision making and attitude in the past concerns me a little bit.
MLG has always felt too corporate for my taste and not enough grassroots. Maybe this is the way to grow ESPORTS in the US, I don't like it however. I'm just happy that European tournaments are alot more grassroots for now atleast.
The higher ups at MLG need to hang up their suits and play some Starcraft by the sound of it.
Interesting interview. I feel that they have suitably not elucidated their actual plans with a great gusto, and have upheld the Sundance tradition. I get it. That said, the information about KeSPA's desire for the partnership is actually quite interesting and useful.
Also, guys... you want to cut costs as a business? Move your office out of NYC. I have absolutely no idea why you're there. And if you want to set up the kind of farm system KeSPA has, ABSOLUTELY do not try to do something that centers around NYC. It's a great city, just a horrifically expensive place to base out of - I like the idea of a Columbus broadcast center a whole lot better. I can't see anything NYC offers that would be unique and a necessity for ya'all. Still, good luck in your endeavors and I hope to be able to hit an MLG sometime this year. (Come back to Orlando, dammit.)
I hope KeSPA/MLG will be rather lenient when letting players participate in other leagues, even though they are working together exclusively. IPL, Dreamhack, IEM, and other leagues deserve to have good players participating.
Also, interesting to hear that the allotted time slot for the BW pros at Anaheim is only 9-12. I think they may need more time if there is a Flash vs Fantasy series.
I don't know what to think really... Feels like lip service.
Regardless of what MLG says, I still read their action as "pay another dollar stupid customer" - The fact they have an exclusivity deal and that a majority of their events are PPV, it clearly stands to reason that to get to these top level kespa players means paying MLG to watch. And, I still stand by a previous statement I made, that PPV does not grow e-sports, it simply profits from its current fan base. Read: It does not add to or grow the fan base - it only takes from it.
I looked at investing in MLG some time ago - I quickly thought otherwise. They have little in the terms of hard assets of value, and it is a service based business - this meant a massive lack of security for my investment, and a greatly variable (unstable) profit base. I did not see the kind of growth via their buisiness plan (as demonstrated by execution) for the benefit I was hoping towards the industry.
On May 16 2012 00:24 ThePhan2m wrote: why cant they put some of that expenses on players and expand their prizepools?
Dude, they spend half a million dollars in travel costs alone for the players per year. Dont act like they give nothing.
Awesome interview. Smart dudes.
I never said they give nothing. I just think their pricepools are small, compared to how much money they put into it getting players there. The players have sponsors dont they? most often they pay the trips etc right? I dont see why some of that half a million cant go into the prizepool to make the tour a greater prestige to win. Providence was awesome btw
I understand MLG wants business leverage with this deal, but I really hope KeSPA players can compete in the other leagues sooner than later. Otherwise they're just limiting their players' exposure in a sport that has a relatively short lifespan, which I'm sure can't be a good thing...
I've never been angrier about esports until now. A closed circuit only means one thing: business monopoly. That is NEVER EVER a good thing for consumers. This is such bullshit. I hate MLG so much right now.
EPT
I am really glad they are doing this together. Thanks for the interviews 
