On May 13 2012 02:04 snakeeyez wrote: Its funny how fast people start writing off a player if they do not win anything recently even though they were and probably are still a top player like mvp. I mean hes the most accomplished player in starcraft 2 still it was not just by luck. That being said we know TvP is in protoss favor late game after all the P buffs like upgrades being cheaper mvp knows its stacked against him balance wise late game.
I love the ridiculous spin placed upon these finals. If MVP loses, it's not because squirtle is a very good protoss, or because MVP historically had a weaker TvP winning most of his championships on the back of his god-tier TvT/TvZ. It's none of that. It's because TvP is imbalanced. And of course, if MVP wins, well then he's just a god and theres simply no disputing it.
Actually if he loses it's because he has CTS in both wrists.
But no, a lot of people will not say that TvP is imbalanced if Squirtle wins or if Mvp wins will they say it's balanced, TvP is imbalanced at the moment because of how the match up plays out. Terran is very strong early-game, and can win with all-ins, like the way Mvp has been winning against NaNiwa and PartinG. Protoss is incredibly OP after a certain time in-game if the Terran hasn't done enough economic damage, and can literally faceroll the Terran army.
Blizzard thinks those two cancel each other out, which really they do, but they don't make for interesting matches, they literally make the match up so that there is one big battle that one side wins or loses and then it's gg, which is awful balance.
Yeah, it's not imbalanced. TvP is much more dynamic than simply declaring that a protoss is unbeatable after a certain "in-game" time, with no variables. You can, however, much more safely and accurately acknowledge a meta game swing in favor of Protoss in PvT.
Did you actually think you're explaining to someone who doesn't know? Lol.
And yes, he does have CTS, but CTS won't be mentioned nearly as much as imbalance.
Calling TvP a dynamic match up is a joke, it's probably the least dynamic match up in the game.
If you're going to be narrow minded and observe this specific metagame as the only end-all TvP metagame that has ever existed, then maybe, in this particular vacuum, it's not very dynamic. I guess SC2 came out a few months ago.
It has nothing to do with metagame, and you're the one being narrow-minded.
TvP is a joke.
You don't even understand what metagame means, do you?
On May 13 2012 02:04 snakeeyez wrote: Its funny how fast people start writing off a player if they do not win anything recently even though they were and probably are still a top player like mvp. I mean hes the most accomplished player in starcraft 2 still it was not just by luck. That being said we know TvP is in protoss favor late game after all the P buffs like upgrades being cheaper mvp knows its stacked against him balance wise late game.
I love the ridiculous spin placed upon these finals. If MVP loses, it's not because squirtle is a very good protoss, or because MVP historically had a weaker TvP winning most of his championships on the back of his god-tier TvT/TvZ. It's none of that. It's because TvP is imbalanced. And of course, if MVP wins, well then he's just a god and theres simply no disputing it.
Actually if he loses it's because he has CTS in both wrists.
But no, a lot of people will not say that TvP is imbalanced if Squirtle wins or if Mvp wins will they say it's balanced, TvP is imbalanced at the moment because of how the match up plays out. Terran is very strong early-game, and can win with all-ins, like the way Mvp has been winning against NaNiwa and PartinG. Protoss is incredibly OP after a certain time in-game if the Terran hasn't done enough economic damage, and can literally faceroll the Terran army.
Blizzard thinks those two cancel each other out, which really they do, but they don't make for interesting matches, they literally make the match up so that there is one big battle that one side wins or loses and then it's gg, which is awful balance.
Yeah, it's not imbalanced. TvP is much more dynamic than simply declaring that a protoss is unbeatable after a certain "in-game" time, with no variables. You can, however, much more safely and accurately acknowledge a meta game swing in favor of Protoss in PvT.
Did you actually think you're explaining to someone who doesn't know? Lol.
And yes, he does have CTS, but CTS won't be mentioned nearly as much as imbalance.
Calling TvP a dynamic match up is a joke, it's probably the least dynamic match up in the game.
If you're going to be narrow minded and observe this specific metagame as the only end-all TvP metagame that has ever existed, then maybe, in this particular vacuum, it's not very dynamic. I guess SC2 came out a few months ago.
It has nothing to do with metagame, and you're the one being narrow-minded.
TvP is a joke.
You don't even understand what metagame means, do you?
I think the question is that do you understand what it means? You sound like you know absolutely nothing.
The argument you are trying to make is the same stupid argument that every biased Protoss player says when the TvP discussion comes up; change your unit composition.
Obviously you're just being ignorant of the actual problem at hand, as changing the unit composition simply doesn't account for the level of efficiency that the Protoss army has in late-game TvP.
If the meta-game does change, and some Terran pro does find an efficient composition out of the pitiful arsenal of T1-2 units that can be cost effective during late-game, then the first place it'll be seen is in the Korean pro scene, not the NA or EU scene.
At the moment Mvp is seemingly doing what is needed; trying to make Protoss players less greedy by just going all-in so that Terrans can actually start going into the late-game without an enormous disadvantage.
On May 14 2012 21:45 crocodile wrote: it's kind of funny because tvp plays out a lot like bio tvz. i think the 'protoss is so strong late game' argument is more the result of people playing bio as standard in tvp and not in other matchups. bio is a composition that is stronger and relies on doing damage early on while riding momentum to victory, and gets weaker in the late game. if mech were viable in tvp, bio wouldn't be standard and it wouldn't be imbalanced.
In TvP the advantage for Protoss is a lot stronger than for Zerg in TvZ, and with units like HT and Zealots they are a LOT more cost effective when dealing with drops and harassment from bio play, but bio is still the most cost efficient play-style possible until someone from Blizzard comes up with a buff to one of the mech units.
All the pros have said mech is awful in TvP, the only one saying it's good is Artosis and he's a Protoss player, pro-players (especially the Korean pro-players) practice all the army compositions they can in all the match ups, and they probably try to make them work, but they don't.
Until the pros can figure it out (assuming they can without a balance change) mech TvP is not cost-effective and not viable.
I'm well aware (discussion of the mech builds pros like mkp have been using aside) that mech is not viable. Zerf'soptions for dealing with Bio are just as strong as protoss', and the goal is the same in both mus. Pressure him so he cannot cost effectively engage you without getting out his tech, but he can't get his tech out if he can't engage you cost effectively. That cost effectiveness usually comes down to micro.
Great article, i agree with nearly everything, however its obvious that the writer is not a fan of Mvp which taints the parts about his games a little. After watching the Mvp-Parting series I personally felt that Mvp just looked much stronger and parting let nerves get to him. 1-1-1 not included all of the builds that Mvp used were pretty safe and standard untill he saw an oppurtunity and lets be fair throwing in one cheese in a best of 5 series is not only exusable its advisable, especially after winning game one like that, I thought it was the right move and it won him the game. As for Hero-Squirtle i was torn on who to root for as it would be neat to have a TL champ, however as a player I do like Squirtle alot, (not that i dislike Hero) and i hope he does well in the finals, again hard to decide who to root for so ill just root for a full set of awesome games, that way we all win...how's that for cheese XD
On May 14 2012 14:24 mrjpark wrote: "With a 3 – 0 victory over Liquid`HerO, ST_Squirtle improved to 14 – 1 in Code S Season Two and stepped one series closer to achieving the best run in GSL history."
Uh, didn't NesTea win a season without dropping a single game?
Yes, but that was still not as impressive if you look at it. NesTea won GSL July with a total score of 14-0, by first getting a walkover against Rain and beating July. In the bracket play he then went 2-0 vs Ensnare, 3-0 vs CoCa, 3-0 vs HongUn and finally 4-0 vs LosirA. None of these players are even close to NesTea's skill level on paper, plus that the tournament itself was a lot smaller back then.
Compare this to Squirtle's run this season. After losing his very first game, he came back to beat MMA 2-1 and then Leenock 2-0 in the Ro32, then it was Oz and Maru, also 2-0's, and now in the playoffs he's 3-0'ed both Taeja and HerO, and is now facing off against Mvp. Not only are these victims a hell of a lot more impressive kills on paper, but his 14 winstreak that has now tied NesTea's previous record might still be extended, depending on how the first game(s) of the finals will go. If everything goes smoothly he could end up with a perfect 18 Code S winstreak.
I don't know, I'm not saying Taeja or HerO are bad, but I don't really think they "belonged" as far along in the tournament as they got this year. MMA is slumping hard and his TvP is less than impressive. Maru is good, but he's so young and there's really not enough games played by him to really know how good he really is. The only wins that I found super impressive this season was Leenock and Oz...but then again, I've been really high on Squirtle for a long time now.
Back when NesTea 3-0'd CoCa, CoCa was looking mighty impressive and people were wondering who (other than NesTea) could stop him. Apparently Byun. Yeah, NesTea's run wasn't so impressive itself, but CoCa and LosirA were both considered two of the scariest guys in Code S at the time and Ensnare and HongUn were both "solid Code S" non-contenders at the time too. It's easy to look back at their play now and talk about how bad they were, but that's only because of how far the game has progressed since then. It's not that these guys were below par for their time, but that NesTea was so far ahead of everyone else.
Not to toot his horn too much, but I do think going undefeated is still a pretty damn good achievement. Especially when you're playing people noticeably worse than you, as you have a giant target on your back and are about to get the shit cheesed out of you.
EPT
