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SQ Leaderboard by Region - Page 15

Forum Index > News
393 CommentsPost a Reply
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ArchDC
Profile Joined May 2011
Malaysia1996 Posts
October 29 2011 20:05 GMT
#281
Nice stats! Definitely interested in seeing what it is like at the other regions and more comparison of players who play in multiple regions (like what you have done w Demuslim and Tod)!
Mykill
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada3402 Posts
October 29 2011 20:46 GMT
#282
great article
protoss SQ is probably low because you warp in.... oh well. Huk ftw!
[~~The Impossible Leads To Invention~~] CJ Entusman #52 The problem with internet quotations is that they are hard to verify -Abraham Lincoln c.1863
butchji
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany1531 Posts
October 29 2011 20:58 GMT
#283
Haha, the "GoOdy Q" prevails. I guess having 5 tanks in queue at one factory fucks up your SQ results.
phimurth
Profile Joined October 2011
Canada7 Posts
October 29 2011 20:59 GMT
#284
People are mentioning the warp gate mechanic, but it might have to do with the cost of the units as well. With the units on average more expensive for Protoss, the unspent resources would tend to float higher when buying them wouldn't it? Might be negligible though.

The other thing I've seen people doing while playing Protoss is that with the warpgate mechanic rather than continuously producing units they will stock pile warpgates and wait for battles to warp in whole defensive armies. This would also lead to a greater amount of floating resources.
MC: "I want an MLG champion cup, so...I kill you"
skrotcyk
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden432 Posts
October 29 2011 21:07 GMT
#285
On October 29 2011 22:13 Aim Here wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2011 22:03 CatNzHat wrote:
I think the protoss deficit is largely contributed them having idle gateways deciding weather or not to warp in the next round of units, or continue building more tech/upgrades/robo units.

This is clearly noticeable especially in Huk's PvZ where he'll power up to a ton of gates when he gets his third up.


Not really. The SQ doesn't care what the money is spent on, as long as it's spent. Overmaking production structures would, if anything, tend to increase the SQ artificially (in relation to game skill, since it's a mistake) because macro mistakes and missed production cycles would be more easily forgiven.

People have already noted that Protoss tends to float resources between production cycles, just due to the nature of the warpgate mechanic, and then spend it all at once, whereas, with other races, it's easier to just build a single unit immediately you have the resources for it. That's the most likely cause of a slight deficit here.


have you ever played zerg? u always inject in cycles which means u will also float resources as zerg between production cycles.

It's only terran this doesn't affect because they can stuck up units as fast they get more minerals. I'd say Ret and idrA is up there only cos they are macro beasts and have superior macro than the others.
nate_v
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States14 Posts
October 29 2011 21:11 GMT
#286
Wow really well done, did you consider doing a fit to the exponential data? You could determine how much players macro increases/decreases with game length for each demographic. Also, I think that makes sense how protoss is lower just due to having to wait for warpgate cooldown which inflates their average unspent for the time it is on cooldown before they dump their resources.

Also something that might be interesting if you got a large enough data set for a few players, you could use a Fourier transform (FFT command on MATLAB) and determine what the frequency modes of their macro is, e.g. the numerical difference for how they do in tourney's vs ladder. Really cool study.
Find A Way
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
October 29 2011 21:45 GMT
#287
Too bad you can't auto-analyze replays to not account for unspent income if you ever are at the foodcap or so.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Maxtor
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom273 Posts
October 29 2011 22:08 GMT
#288
Excellent write up thanks very much, i was always wondering about a method of measuring macro and this seems pretty damn good. also awesome huk pic at the end :D.
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
October 29 2011 22:19 GMT
#289
Very interesting article. It's nice to see how players at the top are absolutely great at spending compared to players below them without even accounting for the fact that lower level players may not have optimal income in the first place. Pretty eye-opening.

I would love to see top level averages for each race in a similar fashion to what you did with each player as a comparison between the races (not to say "X race players all suck", but to merely observe what levels of SQ are considered top-level for each race; certainly, it would be different for each race because of the vastly different mechanics).
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
October 29 2011 22:27 GMT
#290
You should talk to the guys who make Sc2 Gears. They should be able to implement this pretty easy, Sc2 gears already pulls all the info, it just needs to be run through the formula.
:)
Flew
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom133 Posts
October 29 2011 22:35 GMT
#291

I want to add a plea for people to come forward and do the data collection for the other servers. I can't wait to see how the Koreans will do!

Unfortunately, the only way to collect the data (that we know of at the moment) is to use the GM ladder in Battlenet and look at the match history for players, and note down the data in Excel. It takes a couple of hours, but it's worth it.

The MLG tournament analysis is really interesting and it's nice to see that players seem to up their skill for a big event.

I'm glad that people are checking out their own SQs. I've been using this to inspire me and since I've been noting down my SQ after each game my average has gone from 45 to 65.

Some important things I want to note about game length though:
1.If the average income is less than 600, this game is disarded as the results aren't reliable enough for calculation SQ (see whatthefat's previous thread).
2. If your income is over 2000, then the calculation of SQ is very forgiving - you can have an upspent minerals of over 2000 and still have a good SQ score. This way, even if you're maxed out, it's not going to suddenly drop your SQ score unless you sit there for several minutes with 200 supply doing nothing. The pro's would be attacking and rebuilding their army at this point, so it's not going to make SQ less meaningful just because you hit max.

In short - the mechanic used for recording SQ already takes into account the differences in very short and very long games.

Also, for people wanting to measure their macro skills, the other easily measurable variable is number of workers (and number of workers per minute). At lower levels, you may be spending your money, but you will still struggle if your number of workers is low.

On October 29 2011 15:25 d9mmdi wrote:
as you found out that your SQ is only one side of the coin (see Huk) maybe you could device a similar measure for control by using the units lost / resources lost data. Would probably require similar effort to normalize but would be interesting if you can analyze players in different categories. Might even be used in the predictor project to increase accuracy.


I think this is a great idea to analyse effiency - e.g. units killed versus units lost, but the data in the game summary is "units trained" and "killed units" and I think it would require "resources lost" to make any useful comparison. Zerg would lose out horribly because they lose so many zerglings.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
October 29 2011 22:41 GMT
#292
It's pretty astounding that Ret and Idra can even be close to the terrans. Obvously protoss has no chance with how warp in forces you to pool money but even zerg with 4+ queens will pool money for every inject round. Not to mention that an important pat fo zerg is saving up a certain ammount of larvae midgame until you scout or deem it safe to use that for drones or your preffered unit. Obviously in short games zerg can be very effective but when a lot of zerg lategame strategy is based on pooling 5k+ mins and 2k+ gas to insta remax then obviously zergs are going to lose some rating points too. Actually zerg probably pools even more money than protoss late game. The only difference is that protoss pools money during the entire game regardless of income so obviously their unspent resources are higher throughtout the game.
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
October 29 2011 23:16 GMT
#293
Wow this is so amazing. For sure deserves the front page news and not just spotlight!

+ Show Spoiler +
Top 3 control bitches : )
prodromus
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3 Posts
October 30 2011 01:07 GMT
#294
Wow, great article. Thanks for putting in the time to do all this work. I love the attention to statistics. Plus, it's fun to track my SQ over time and see how it compares to the top players.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard, be evil.
Flamingo777
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1190 Posts
October 30 2011 01:18 GMT
#295
I really hope you get school credit for this, if you did it for a class. It's just as informative as a few scientific journal articles I've read. Good stuff!
KevinIX
Profile Joined October 2009
United States2472 Posts
October 30 2011 01:37 GMT
#296
Maybe in the future you can find a way to convert sq between races. Seems like Protoss sq is slightly slower because of warpgates.
Liquid FIGHTING!!!
Tektos
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia1321 Posts
October 30 2011 02:26 GMT
#297
The joke about Demuslim's arm had me laughing IRL for like 5 minutes.

Amazing analysis, great work!
zyce
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States649 Posts
October 30 2011 02:39 GMT
#298
This is some great stuff, and I hope to see more of it in the future. I do think the SQ is affected by race mechanics, and hopefully that'll show up through more analysis. Warp-in and MULEs seem to have divergent effects on the SQ, as the former lends towards floating and the latter creates a fluctuating redline on SQ.
Beauty is not the goal of competitive sports, but high-level sports are a prime venue for the expression of human beauty. The relation is roughly that of courage to war.
Nazeron
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada1046 Posts
October 30 2011 02:53 GMT
#299
interesting write up
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
89vision
Profile Joined September 2010
United States70 Posts
October 30 2011 03:06 GMT
#300
Nice job, proper scientific write up.

You know there's something there when the author can point out flaws in the theory, and it's still a strong idea.
An itch only a deadlift can scratch
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