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On August 08 2011 04:23 tyrless wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 03:47 Paladia wrote:
As for the tournament, the major disappointment wasn't Korea doing too well but the United States doing too poorly. The United States, which has bought more copies of Starcraft 2 than any other country, brought 200 of the best players to the tournament, with every single of their top players represented on their home turf. Still, they only managed to get 2 players into the top19 and zero in the top 8.
Even a tiny country such as Sweden did much better, despite just sending four players and hardly having the best represented there (such as Thorzain, Morrow or SaSe) and having purchased only 2% of the copies compared to the US.
Why does the US do so extremely poorly on a tournament in their own home country despite having such a massive amount of SC2 players? Judging from players such as Idra and other top US players, it must be something in the US mentality that makes them unable to succeed in games. Guess you didn't read the article or maybe you just didn't understand it, but Korea (or Sweden if it makes you feel better) have a HUGE advantage because they are small countries. Not sure where you got the idea that sales numbers reflect the intensity of pro-gaming communities. Nice try though.
lol, remember there were probably more copys sold in like NY or LA than Korea or Sweden so USA should be able to have multiple "power-cells" capable of beating everyone ells...
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I'm not sure I buy the argument that the smallness and "density" of Korea gives them a huge advantage. It seems to me that the reasons the author gives either aren't a big deal or don't actually distinguish Korea from the western scene.
- Koreans don't just practice in close proximity to their teammates, they practice in close proximity to every other progamer in the GSL galaxy.
Okay, what does "close proximity" mean, and secondly what does it matter? People playing games on the internet don't need to be in close proximity, assuming lag isn't an issue. If this is supposed to be referring to the fact that they're in team houses, it's irrelevant to the author's argument which is concerning the size of Korea as a whole.
- Players in the Korean scene do not travel far for their tournaments.
What does this have to do with practice and improvement? The only difference this could possibly make is less practice time lost due to travel. However, foreign players don't travel enough, and their travel times aren't long enough, to make an appreciable difference.
- Their teams do not need to spend significant sums of money on travel, and can instead improve the practice environment of the teamhouses.
Sort of beside the point since most foreigners aren't in team houses, and the establishment of team houses is a separate issue from the density of Korea (as the author acknowledges). In any case, it's hard to imagine how spending more money on the team houses would make a big difference in player improvement. It's not like teams like EG can't afford leather chairs for their team houses. The author is basically grasping at straws with this one.
- The players encounter each other regularly.
What does this mean? That they talk about the game in person more? They see each other at the Gom studio more? This point overlaps with the first one and again, since the players are on the internet I don't see how in-person contact between teams could make a huge difference.
- Many know each other from BW or from prior teams and clans.
The same is true of many foreigner pros. Regardless I don't see this making much of a difference. What matters is the dedication of practice partners. Would acquaintances be more dedicated to each other than people who just met?
- The Korean scene operates within the same time-zone.
This is the one point that I could see making somewhat of a difference. However it is only relevant to the gap between US and European time zones, since players within the US and within Europe don't have enough of a time zone difference to impede practice time. In any case I think there's enough of a waking-hours overlap for US and Euro players to practice together during those hours and then practice with players closer to them in other hours. Furthermore this issue is superceded by the establishment of team houses issue, which of course would put foreigners in the same time zone.
- The pro teams operate on similar schedules.
This is a repeat of the previous point.
In sum, the author makes a bold, broad statement but can only back it up with weak points of evidence.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 08 2011 05:33 Doodsmack wrote:
I'm not sure I buy the argument that the smallness and "density" of Korea gives them a huge advantage. It seems to me that the reasons the author gives either aren't a big deal or don't actually distinguish Korea from the western scene.
- Koreans don't just practice in close proximity to their teammates, they practice in close proximity to every other progamer in the GSL galaxy.
Okay, what does "close proximity" mean, and secondly what does it matter? People playing games on the internet don't need to be in close proximity, assuming lag isn't an issue. If this is supposed to be referring to the fact that they're in team houses, it's irrelevant to the author's argument which is concerning the size of Korea as a whole.
- Players in the Korean scene do not travel far for their tournaments.
What does this have to do with practice and improvement? The only difference this could possibly make is less practice time lost due to travel. However, foreign players don't travel enough, and their travel times aren't long enough, to make an appreciable difference.
- Their teams do not need to spend significant sums of money on travel, and can instead improve the practice environment of the teamhouses.
Sort of beside the point since most foreigners aren't in team houses, and the establishment of team houses is a separate issue from the density of Korea (as the author acknowledges). In any case, it's hard to imagine how spending more money on the team houses would make a big difference in player improvement. It's not like teams like EG can't afford leather chairs for their team houses. The author is basically grasping at straws with this one.
- The players encounter each other regularly.
What does this mean? That they talk about the game in person more? They see each other at the Gom studio more? This point overlaps with the first one and again, since the players are on the internet I don't see how in-person contact between teams could make a huge difference.
- Many know each other from BW or from prior teams and clans.
The same is true of many foreigner pros. Regardless I don't see this making much of a difference. What matters is the dedication of practice partners. Would acquaintances be more dedicated to each other than people who just met?
- The Korean scene operates within the same time-zone.
This is the one point that I could see making somewhat of a difference. However it is only relevant to the gap between US and European time zones, since players within the US and within Europe don't have enough of a time zone difference to impede practice time. In any case I think there's enough of a waking-hours overlap for US and Euro players to practice together during those hours and then practice with players closer to them in other hours. Furthermore this issue is superceded by the establishment of team houses issue, which of course would put foreigners in the same time zone.
- The pro teams operate on similar schedules.
This is a repeat of the previous point.
In sum, the author makes a bold, broad statement but can only back it up with weak points of evidence.
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Where was it hosted? I kept looking for crowds of MLG sweaters, lol.
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"That Koreans have discovered that our weekly cups and appetite for streaming is only a good thing."
I think something got lost in translation here. 
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On August 08 2011 04:23 tyrless wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 03:47 Paladia wrote:
As for the tournament, the major disappointment wasn't Korea doing too well but the United States doing too poorly. The United States, which has bought more copies of Starcraft 2 than any other country, brought 200 of the best players to the tournament, with every single of their top players represented on their home turf. Still, they only managed to get 2 players into the top19 and zero in the top 8.
Even a tiny country such as Sweden did much better, despite just sending four players and hardly having the best represented there (such as Thorzain, Morrow or SaSe) and having purchased only 2% of the copies compared to the US.
Why does the US do so extremely poorly on a tournament in their own home country despite having such a massive amount of SC2 players? Judging from players such as Idra and other top US players, it must be something in the US mentality that makes them unable to succeed in games. Guess you didn't read the article or maybe you just didn't understand it, but Korea (or Sweden if it makes you feel better) have a HUGE advantage because they are small countries. Not sure where you got the idea that sales numbers reflect the intensity of pro-gaming communities. Nice try though.
I guess you didn't read my post, or the article. Of course sales make for a bigger chance that there are good players. To give you an obvious example, Europe (which includes Sweden) will have better players than Sweden alone. Just like the US will have better players than just California. As such, which such a large pool of players, the US should do better. If you want a small community, feel free to think of the US as lots of states. There is no advantage to be just Sweden when you could be all of Europe (which is basically what the US is). Still, the US has extremely lackluster results. Why is that?
Another thing is that it seems like YOU didn't read the article. It doesn't talk about how big or small the country is, but the density of the community. "One of the most important reasons Koreans dominate is because the Korean network is located in a tremendously small area spatially and socially. Koreans don't just practice in close proximity to their teammates, they practice in close proximity to every other progamer in the GSL galaxy"
Sweden is one of the countries in the world with the lowest population density. So if anything, the US should have a "HUGE" advantage even in that department. Not to mention that one single city in the US (New York) has as much population as the entire country of Sweden. Guess which has the biggest density?
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I kinda feel like the OP was biased against IdrA.
In the first part they kinda just mocked him in his matches against boxer which in no way was needed for the recap.
Then for some reason they didn't mention him as a top foreigner, and then topped it off by saying EG failed.
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Awesome write up, so pumped for the next MLG ^_^
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Really like the semi pro interviews by primadog well done!
Good feature overall, I was wondering when this would be released but It's good quality coverage.
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Australia8532 Posts
On August 08 2011 06:25 noemercy wrote:
I kinda feel like the OP was biased against IdrA.
In the first part they kinda just mocked him in his matches against boxer which in no way was needed for the recap.
Then for some reason they didn't mention him as a top foreigner, and then topped it off by saying EG failed.
Just because someone isn't praising IdrA doesn't mean they are subtley constructing an article against him. He got BFH roasted and the OP used his game as an example of Korean T's causing chaos with this build. I suppose if it was any other zerg there wouldn't be a problem?
Are you mad that they didn't list SjoW as a top foreigner? Because if you look at the rankings they mentioned the Top 8 - IdrA came 9th, SjoW 10th followed by a slew of other foreigners including Ret, Slush, Sheth, Kiwi etc etc, i think you are taking an arbitrary "Top 8" reference a little to far, but again i feel it's just the "IdrA factor"
And finally if you read the "EG failed" section at all, you would have read the very obvious:
Aside from Idra, the two top placing EG players were Machine and iNcontroL who only won six games (that's games not matches) between both of them. LzGamer, Axslav, and Strifecro also only managed to make a small splashes on the tournament.
Feels like you are making a big deal over very little.
OT: I feel like i write "awesome write up" after every major article that comes out of the writing team so instead this time i am going to stick with incredible write up! Really fun read and good recap of the event! The Korean + Terran domination was interesting to see - so many TvTs haha! Looking forward to Raleigh!
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 08 2011 05:33 Doodsmack wrote:
I'm not sure I buy the argument that the smallness and "density" of Korea gives them a huge advantage. It seems to me that the reasons the author gives either aren't a big deal or don't actually distinguish Korea from the western scene.
- Koreans don't just practice in close proximity to their teammates, they practice in close proximity to every other progamer in the GSL galaxy.
Okay, what does "close proximity" mean, and secondly what does it matter? People playing games on the internet don't need to be in close proximity, assuming lag isn't an issue. If this is supposed to be referring to the fact that they're in team houses, it's irrelevant to the author's argument which is concerning the size of Korea as a whole.
It matters because of the opportunities players have to learn from each other. The average player would get significantly better sitting next to MC in a teamhouse than they would sitting alone at home, no matter their practice schedule. Being in close physical proximity to other top-level players creates the best possible environment for discussing and learning about the game. Frequently in post-win interviews, players have cited their neighbors in the practice house as big influences on their game.
On August 08 2011 05:33 Doodsmack wrote:- Players in the Korean scene do not travel far for their tournaments.
What does this have to do with practice and improvement? The only difference this could possibly make is less practice time lost due to travel. However, foreign players don't travel enough, and their travel times aren't long enough, to make an appreciable difference.
It makes a huge difference. Travel cost is a massive part of the budget for foreign pro-teams. Because foreign tournaments are spread across three continents and countless countries, it's extremely difficult for foreign teams to support a dedicated team-house, to send their players to Korea to train, or to add additional players. But for Korean teams, living, practicing, and playing within a single metropolitan area is a huge benefit. Teams can afford more players, and to support their teamhouses in the most comprehensive way possible.
On August 08 2011 05:33 Doodsmack wrote:- Their teams do not need to spend significant sums of money on travel, and can instead improve the practice environment of the teamhouses.
Sort of beside the point since most foreigners aren't in team houses, and the establishment of team houses is a separate issue from the density of Korea (as the author acknowledges). In any case, it's hard to imagine how spending more money on the team houses would make a big difference in player improvement. It's not like teams like EG can't afford leather chairs for their team houses. The author is basically grasping at straws with this one. See above. Domestic help for example. If the team can pay someone to keep up with household activities, then the players and coaches do not have to spend hours cooking or doing laundry or other things like this.
On August 08 2011 05:33 Doodsmack wrote:- The players encounter each other regularly.
What does this mean? That they talk about the game in person more? They see each other at the Gom studio more? This point overlaps with the first one and again, since the players are on the internet I don't see how in-person contact between teams could make a huge difference. Because it helps develop relationships that can translate to good practice relationships online. I'm not trying to suggest that if the entire foreign scene came together and played soccer together twice a year that things would all get much better. But this is one of many factors to consider.
On August 08 2011 05:33 Doodsmack wrote:- Many know each other from BW or from prior teams and clans.
The same is true of many foreigner pros. Regardless I don't see this making much of a difference. What matters is the dedication of practice partners. Would acquaintances be more dedicated to each other than people who just met? Not as much. BW players and WC3 players didn't know each other well at the beginning. Again, it's a part of the puzzle that gave Korea a head-start earlier. You have an entire scene that speaks the same gaming and practicing language.
On August 08 2011 05:33 Doodsmack wrote:- The Korean scene operates within the same time-zone.
This is the one point that I could see making somewhat of a difference. However it is only relevant to the gap between US and European time zones, since players within the US and within Europe don't have enough of a time zone difference to impede practice time. In any case I think there's enough of a waking-hours overlap for US and Euro players to practice together during those hours and then practice with players closer to them in other hours. Furthermore this issue is superceded by the establishment of team houses issue, which of course would put foreigners in the same time zone.
The last couple MLG's were a perfect example of how AM pro's were completely unprepared for styles that became common months ago on the European server. Of course AM and EU players could practice with each other, but do they very often? Not at all, because it's inconvenient.
On August 08 2011 05:33 Doodsmack wrote:- The pro teams operate on similar schedules.
This is a repeat of the previous point. No it's not. European players are affected by MLG's much less than AM players. The opposite is true for DH and other big Eurolans. Only a handful of players have roughly similar schedules. But this kind of disconnect hurts opportunities for (say) KawaiiRice to practice with NightEnD, because both are excellent players who fall a little below the bar for inter-continental competition.
On August 08 2011 05:33 Doodsmack wrote:In sum, the author makes a bold, broad statement but can only back it up with weak points of evidence.
It's been routinely proven that dense and fluid networks will produce better results than isolated individuals. My main point is that Korea is the former, and the international scene is the latter. I can bring up a number of specific small examples, but the overarching point is what's important. Korea is the Sc2 scene best able to adapt to new strategies, develop new ones, and optimize their play. This advantage is the kind that snowballs without a response.
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Great review although i feel you missed some cred for idra. He did really well in his group and was fairly stable overall in the tournament. If you are going to mention slush sjow and ret you might as well give idra a shoutout Regardless it is always a pleasure to read these things. So well written
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the thing with Zerg is that they don't have as many tools to be creative, as Terran and Protoss do in the early stages of the game. This design issue will stunt Zerg growth in the future i think. I hope they give lings another evolution path in HotS or something like that.
by the way, great photos. is there anyway of getting them in HQ?
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nice write-up/pics on the rain/boxer TvT game 1.
best TvT i've seen since leta v flash about a month ago in SPL. so probably the coolest tvt i've seen in sc2. 
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Just stopping in quick to say:
The opening section by Tree.Hugger was one of the most well-conceived write-ups I've read on my short tenure here at TL. Absolutely great, thank you!
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Nice writeup, but I feel like ToD should have been given a little more attention of his Alicia-slaying.
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3030 Posts
Great write. Nice mention of Gimix, a really mannered player.
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I'm not a very good SC2 player myself but i like following the SC-Scene and watching Tournaments.
In my opinion, the biggest difference between Korean and "Foreign" players imo is constancy and endurance. From time to time there are players like HuK or Jinro who really seem to be on the same level with korean players when competing against them in tournaments and who are able to beat some really good korean players. Then a few weeks later they get completely smashed by koreans again.
The top korean players are playing on the same high level since SC2 got released, while the top foreign players were sometimes able to reach that level but they weren't able to stay up there.
The reason for this may simply be dedication... even if you are the best foreign SC2 players in the world you still won't get rich and you won't get much recognition in real life. So why should someone put so much effort and time into something that in the end won't really make you life better? Even if playing SC2 is the thing you like doing the most it probably won't give you enough motivation to really do it 8h per day for several months. The other way round in korea you can earn a lot more money by playing sc and esports are a lot more accepted in their "popculture"... people will want your autographs and all that stuff if you are the best...
A foreigner could of course go to korea to earn more money and recognition, not just for a few weeks/months but years, but then again: Even though SC2 may be the biggest esport you won't get rich even in korea. People move from europe to america to play basketball there if they see the chance of earning thousands (if not millions) of euros or people from south america move to europe to play soccer in hope to become rich and famous...... but honestly: would you voluntarily move to korea and leave all your friends/family behind just for the chance of earning money for playing sc2 that you could also earn with any standard job in your homecountry? i don't think so and thats why koreans will always be better at playing sc2.
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I like this a lot , I took the time and read the entire thing
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Anybody else think it's really odd that Tyler gets praised for taking out Choya, but nobody mentions that InControl ALSO beat Choya?
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EPT
