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[LP] Zerg Love: 3 Hatch Muta/Ling
October 12th, 2010 21:02 GMT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Imperator/Liquipedia/LP1LP2Banner.jpg) Liquipedia Weekly #7
The first  GSL is over, but still there is a lot of content to salvage. With mostly people that play on a professional level, these games have been high-level and very educational. Previously we mentioned two Terran builds that we picked up during the event. This week we'll finally look at the Zerg side of things!
As showcased by Check, TheWind and Cool, be bring you:
Build Order
This is the first build we have that goes up to three Hatcheries. It's taken a while - to no surprise. With Larva inject, a Queen used to be seen as an extra Hatchery. From early beta on Zergs would get a Natural and two Queens - effectively having a four Hatchery production capacity. Unlike was the case in Broodwar, having extra Hatcheries other than at a new expansion seemed questionable. Sure people did it, tried it, experimented with it, but we haven't seen it prominently showcased in any high-level play.
Until now. Our Korean friends have been kind enough to fully explore the Third-hatch in-base and how you can make this pay off. After studying a lot of replays Velra G established the solid build order that we hope will help you use this as well, as well as thank him for his efforts. Make sure to check out the replay pack as well!
Adaptation and ReplaysA build is only as good as it's ability to deal with various situations. Three Hatcheries is a long way to go and there's a lot of stuff a Protoss can throw at you from Aiur's Arsenal during that time.
Don't be afraid! The extensive Scouting + Adaptation section helps you to recognize and deal with various scenarios. Be it the dreaded Pylon block, one base all-ins, Forge expansions or Stargate openings, we got you covered.
Interested? Check out the page, practice, and of course see how the pros do it with the excellent replay pack compiled by VelRa-G.
Pimp MovesOne more thing that makes this build awesome: with 3 extra larva the Larva Inject isn't all-that-necessary. This leaves you energy to spread creep all over the map and use transfusions mid-battle!
Can you be as cool as fruitdealer? (pun so intended)
And that's it for our quick newsflash, expect more content soon!
- Liquipedia staff 
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Cool! I already do this against protoss, though it could be refined. I'll have to check it out. Thanks a ton!
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Maybe now I can I be like cool...Awesome post!
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Great build very flexible works vs terran and toss. So thanks 
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I like to mass queens.
They can heal your mutalisks.
Queens rape colossi. ;]
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should be difficult vs any kind of rush on a slightly lower skill level
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How does this Strat agianst 4 gate ?
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must write this on sticky note and practice it 20 000 times...
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United States7166 Posts
On October 13 2010 06:02 Pholon wrote:
One more thing that makes this build awesome: with 3 extra larva the Larva Inject isn't all-that-necessary. This leaves you energy to spread creep all over the map and use transfusions mid-battle!
i disagree with this line, when going ling/muta lings are a key part of the build and theyre really really heavy in the larvae department, you need to be spawn larvae'ing well and consistently
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Sounds really cool guys. When I finally pick up playing SC2 all those entries are going to be verrrrrrry useful!
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Thanks for this great build!
How do you guys respond if your opponent starts getting phoenix or blink? Everytime I go muta vs. toss, blink or phoenix just shuts it down so hard I have to drop them altogether and feel really behind in the game.
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I am sad to see this get so much attention, because now Protoss might build to counter it blindly most PvZ's, and that sucks! But it still a great build and is very effective. Good to see people giving Zerg so much positive attention lately.
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Canada743 Posts
Awesome, can't wait to watch these replays.
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OMG i've been trying to tell people to go 3 hatch like in BW, but they never believe me.
"HAHAHA third base is too risky you noob"
-Doubter Person
Thanks for the Article TL can't wait to watch the replays 
P.S. Im hoping for a Korean to make TvP Mech viable
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Oh hell, another build to make my PvZ games hell.
Thanks for the build, now more zerg players will (hopfully) not 6/7pool me and rather tech while i make my timing attack.
Err, idk what to say to make this not sound like a "zerg op" post, but oh well. Its not though.
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On October 13 2010 06:35 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 06:02 Pholon wrote:
One more thing that makes this build awesome: with 3 extra larva the Larva Inject isn't all-that-necessary. This leaves you energy to spread creep all over the map and use transfusions mid-battle!
i disagree with this line, when going ling/muta lings are a key part of the build and theyre really really heavy in the larvae department, you need to be spawn larvae'ing well and consistently
I'm under the impression that 2 queens will be able to maintain sufficient larvae, while the third can be /dancing and shit. Haven't tested yet, though... so...
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Can someone with the know-how tell us a little about the choice for a 10 overlord as opposed to what I (from reading TL) perceived as the "scientifically proven" 9 overlord?
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I need to try this I love muta play
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Well, Cool does a 10 overlord, but no one seems to know why. It doesn't really matter, unless you're going to make some last second decision to 10-pool or something.
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I just got back from watchin the oGsStc vs. Fruitdealer replay pack, and I cried 
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against 1base stargate i think itd be better to mass queens to defend. transfusion and long range antiair is better than hydras and cost no larva or gas.
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DarkForce and DiMaGa do 10 Ovie too.
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in my opinion, 10 overlord gives you more time to react on the things you scouted with the 9th drone.
whether to make drones or just to react to early aggression builds from ur opponent.
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On October 13 2010 06:35 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 06:02 Pholon wrote:
One more thing that makes this build awesome: with 3 extra larva the Larva Inject isn't all-that-necessary. This leaves you energy to spread creep all over the map and use transfusions mid-battle!
i disagree with this line, when going ling/muta lings are a key part of the build and theyre really really heavy in the larvae department, you need to be spawn larvae'ing well and consistently
Yeah, I think even a third queen is a great idea - spread creep, extra injects, simply transfer to third base as soon as your third is up.
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i dunno, a 15 hat opening?? imo hatch first isnt viable in zvp, cant stop him from cannoning your nat :/
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muta ling is complete garbage tho...
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 13 2010 08:50 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
muta ling is complete garbage tho...
ya totally fruitdealer lost every game he opened muta ling at the gsl and totally didn't use it win himself (his mom? hehe) 85k....
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On October 13 2010 07:50 Lobotomist wrote:
Well, Cool does a 10 overlord, but no one seems to know why. It doesn't really matter, unless you're going to make some last second decision to 10-pool or something.
It's more or less a reactionary opening. If you scout a fast pool with the early scout (I wanna say 8 or 9), then when the 10 Overlord pops, you can either just drop the pool and still have some wiggle room. Otherwise, you just make the 3 drones.
When you 10 Overlord, you have around 150ish minerals when it pops. It's up to the information to drop the pool or make more drones at that point.
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A very cool build order and I expect to run into a lot of Zerg players using this =P
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Awsomeness, btw theres a typo
As showcased by (Wiki2)Check, TheWind and (Wiki2)Cool, be bring you:
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Blargh! Now that my favourite opener is out in the open, I'm gonna have to find another. :|
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I'm a little disappointed. This is was suppose to feature this legit build with reps of pro's performing it. 3 reps. 3 horrible reps. 2 of them are of Z getting stomped and I don't think a single one of them actually shows a third hatch on 2 bases, which seems to be what part of this build is all about. Also isn't the BO supposed to be validated by these reps? And then 2/3 of them are losses.
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On October 13 2010 06:53 Intr3pid wrote:
why not 9 overlord?
Getting the Overlord at 10 supply allows you to get the minerals for a 15 Hatch faster than with a 9, as you'll effectively have more drones mining minerals for longer, even though you'll be supply capped and unable to make units.
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Going to check it out in the morning. Seems good
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On October 13 2010 09:31 Priapus wrote:
I'm a little disappointed. This is was suppose to feature this legit build with reps of pro's performing it. 3 reps. 3 horrible reps. 2 of them are of Z getting stomped and I don't think a single one of them actually shows a third hatch on 2 bases, which seems to be what part of this build is all about. Also isn't the BO supposed to be validated by these reps? And then 2/3 of them are losses.
This page was created with the intent of updating as more work was accomplished. I did not expect the front page article, and so didn't have supplementary replays available, as I've been quite busy with my term work of late. Be patient and I'll post more. But more to the point, the point of Wikis is to be community-based where revisions are conducted based on the results of new areas of analysis. If further inquiry into this build shows that it is fundamentally flawed, then it will no longer have a place in the community.
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yay, Zerg love! xD
now we just need a ZvT and we're all sorted :D
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On October 13 2010 06:25 mumming wrote:
but why 10 overlord?
i believe you should do the extractor trick with this build but im not entirely sure about that you'll have to ask Cool himself :D
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I like this build, but honestly prefer 4 hatch off 3 bases mining or 5 hatch off 2 bases + high yield. 3 hatch off 2 lines is like half all-in to me. It's harder to get to 4 or 5 hatch, but if you get to it, it's so much harder to stop you.
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On October 13 2010 06:53 Intr3pid wrote:
why not 9 overlord?
If you go 10 overlord when the over lord pops out you'll have exactly 3 larvae. this was commonly done in BW.
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I play toss I'd just like to say NOOOO!
I've actually played vs this (or something similar) quite a bit and it is a real headache.
Problem is it gets pretty scary because of how many lings a Zerg can suddenly spit out if they see you went to much economy and don't have enough cannons and zlots.
The only good response I've found is a BW style FE or a solid timing push right as the first few mutas pop. (You do damage before he can get his muta count up)
I love PvZ though and the narrow timings that this match provides with 3 hatch muta/ling vs FE toss is very exciting and back and fourth. Many times resulting in a "who teched better" faceoff.
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On October 13 2010 07:08 Raiden X wrote:OMG i've been trying to tell people to go 3 hatch like in BW, but they never believe me. "HAHAHA third base is too risky you noob" -Doubter Person Thanks for the Article TL can't wait to watch the replays P.S. Im hoping for a Korean to make TvP Mech viable
The build is about a third IN-BASE hatchery, I also don't see why you wouldn't want to expand, Perhaps you are building production power first and a somewhat stable economy first, then you expand once you obtain map control with your lings.
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On October 13 2010 08:50 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote:
muta ling is complete garbage tho...
Ionlyplayprotoss with a terran logo and stating that Muta ling is crap because he's a zerg player and should know?
Hey guys we have a mystery on our hands!!!
Muta ling is great against Protoss
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On October 13 2010 11:04 hadoken5 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 07:08 Raiden X wrote:OMG i've been trying to tell people to go 3 hatch like in BW, but they never believe me. "HAHAHA third base is too risky you noob" -Doubter Person Thanks for the Article TL can't wait to watch the replays P.S. Im hoping for a Korean to make TvP Mech viable The build is about a third IN-BASE hatchery, I also don't see why you wouldn't want to expand, Perhaps you are building production power first and a somewhat stable economy first, then you expand once you obtain map control with your lings.
Thats what i was referring to. Plus the article advocates a fast ACTUAL third after the initial 3.
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On October 13 2010 07:36 Sozeles wrote:
Can someone with the know-how tell us a little about the choice for a 10 overlord as opposed to what I (from reading TL) perceived as the "scientifically proven" 9 overlord?
9 overlord is for larvae production but is pretty minimal and not even worth talking about below mid-diamond level (probably higher to be honest). do either.
3 hatch muta/ling is my fav build against toss. already do this but with faster mutas and later 2nd hatch (not that much later...and 4 gas is more important than extra minerals). but ill look into the timings of this particular build. TL staff probably did math on this. i can already say, you need to make sure he isnt voiding bc this is weaker to voids than faster spire...but more lings with extra minerals probably accounts for that.
it's dangerous having too cut-and-dry builds with zerg, and appreciate TL staff's hesitation and research. we love you
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I love the idea of 3 hatch... is heavily underused.
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Am I reading it wrong or do you really double hatch at 15?
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annoying to deal with as toss
so zergs try it
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On October 13 2010 12:14 eNtitY~ wrote:
Am I reading it wrong or do you really double hatch at 15?
Your reading it wrong.
Hatch[2] means second hatch, not 2 hatcheries. That would be written as
2x Hatch
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Thanks for another great page!
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I think this 3hatch mutaling build is somewhat a standard build if you opt for the 15 hatch 14 pool.
You technically prevent any sort of rushing to muta tech which 1 base and even 2 base mutas provide you with.
If you dont get pressured while teching to muta.. 1/2 base play would give you a huge advantage, and gettin the muta early.. means more time for you to control their economy.
However, if you are up against a more aggressive player who pushes you early on, the extra hatch would be good for providing that extra larvae for unit production to fend off attacks
This is a great reactionary build order from a zerg.
Once you get 3 bases working...its when the zerg population booms!!
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Nice post guys!
Also this may just be me, but I swear I've heard "explosive mid-game" used to describe a build like 10 times today =P
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On October 13 2010 06:25 mumming wrote:
but why 10 overlord?
It's a personal preference after all, but players some players like fruitdealer prefer this.
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How do you stop canon rush in natural behind minerals with that build? And how do you defend against 4 warp gate push with a lot of sentry (FF own zerglings). How do you defend against fast double gate?
Im sorry to say, but this build is simply crap. It only works against terran, definitely not against protoss.
Of course it will work against protoss who is making a standard 1 gate-cyber build. But come on... a strategy has to be prepared for most builds, not only for one.
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On October 13 2010 15:02 jarek.exe wrote:
How do you stop canon rush in natural behind minerals with that build? And how do you defend against 4 warp gate push with a lot of sentry (FF own zerglings). How do you defend against fast double gate?
Im sorry to say, but this build is simply crap. It only works against terran, definitely not against protoss.
Of course it will work against protoss who is making a standard 1 gate-cyber build. But come on... a strategy has to be prepared for most builds, not only for one.
Don't think of the build as having to go strictly by these food counts and timings. The basic idea is to get to a point where you know you want to go a muta/ling build versus the protoss. At some point in your game, you want to be at 2 in-base hatcheries with your natural taken, getting ready to secure your 3rd base. Now how you get there can totally be flexible to adapt to the game. Like a lot of people said, doing the 10 overlord gives you enough time to scout the double 10 gate or fast forge, for instance, and your pool can be sooner. Don't think that you have to see double 10 gate and go "oh, well I just know food counts and have to build my pool on 14 after my 15 hatch or it wont work". It's a general plan, not a list. If you send an overlord in at about 5 minutes or so or poke up with a ling and see four gateways or lots of units, then put some D up and get ready. It is O.K. to deviate from the exact build order as posted, so long as you stick to the general plan of having the 3 hatch on 2 base with a muta/ling combo, and then controlling the map secure your 3rd.
It is a solid plan, thumbs up for posting on this.
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Then what's the poing of posting exact BO?
At least put some comments. Strategy itself is ok, I almost always go mutaling vs P, but not like that. As I've too often was losing expnsion to cannons or 2gate.
What about 4 warp gate push? Mutalisks wont be on the filed and mass zerglings (especially on maps with back door where u cant spine up) are getting owned.
Im still of the opinion that this strategy is appalling.
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On October 13 2010 15:02 jarek.exe wrote:
How do you stop canon rush in natural behind minerals with that build? And how do you defend against 4 warp gate push with a lot of sentry (FF own zerglings). How do you defend against fast double gate?
Im sorry to say, but this build is simply crap. It only works against terran, definitely not against protoss.
Of course it will work against protoss who is making a standard 1 gate-cyber build. But come on... a strategy has to be prepared for most builds, not only for one.
1 gate cyber is pretty standard since the zealot nerf. If he 2 gates abandon and go roaches, Any cannon play is going to be annoying no matter what build you go, 4 gate push you probly don't want to use the build so you do something else.
This is probably the best build vs toss, mutas are a bitch
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The whole rationale of in-base hatch is to have the larva output of 2base with the choke defense of 1base, which works really well early on since t1 units cost little or no gas. You don't go for mutas until you either have a lot of gas saved up or can secure the gas geysers on your natural.
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I cant believe this. I ve been waiting for some ZVP help as i struggle so hard without doin mass muta ling, and what is the featured build? Muta ling.
AAND it starts with 15 hatch which is auto-loss against forge or gate-forge openers, which about 99.95% of the protosses do on ladder if they see you exp.
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On October 13 2010 21:08 Geo.Rion wrote:
I cant believe this. I ve been waiting for some ZVP help as i struggle so hard without doin mass muta ling, and what is the featured build? Muta ling.
AAND it starts with 15 hatch which is auto-loss against forge or gate-forge openers, which about 99.95% of the protosses do on ladder if they see you exp.
The last part of this statement is true... 15 hatch is auto loss against any toss who scouts you in a reasonable time and knows that he still has enough time to throw down a forge after his gateway and cannon the shit outta your nat. Honestly, never ever go hatch before pool in ZvP.
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Sen use Mutaling to rape almost everyone he face on ladder no matter Terran or Protoss. Zerg players should check Sen's stream out when its on.
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just a little tip.
use the in game clock instead of supply in the later stages, as it's not uncommon to have lost some before 40 supply.
sure people arn't retards, and can probably wing it from there, but just to make it even more precise.
good guide otherwise. more stuff like this please!
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15 hatchery is ok against gate forge or 2 gate,
but this strate does not indicate how to fight against 4 gate
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Good guide, I really enjoy muta-ling play against protoss.
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Turns out this is very similar to what I did until now, only I want carapce +1 instead of roach warren
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I find it strange how people talk about how this build does/does not work against certain other builds. Surely you realise that it has soooo much to do about positioning and map. Crossposition LT for example. Aslong as the toss doesnt go anything cheesy certinly you can defend a hatch first if you do it correctly. I mostly face 1400ish toss players and iirc I have yet to loose my hatch first to cannoning. I find defending with drones works fine til the lings pop. 2gate is harder but with 2 queens and some lings thats doable aswell.
And to the question how it does against 4gate. That aswell has alot to do with the map / positioning but in general the earlier you get your exp the better against 4gate I feel. I for one prefer to def 4gates with SC/Queens + Lings and the earlier you get your creep at your nat the better. The build itself will, as anyone should realize, get altered based on the amount of pressure directed at you. But with a tight choke and good scouting so you know when to stop droning I absolutely think this can def a 4gate if properly handled.
And the 3rd hatch inbase, I just love to use it on maps such as DQ or Metalopolis to create a tighter choke, its awsome. And if you like me aint a macromonster your inject larvas will not be perfect, especially when under pressure, so the 3rd hatch makes a great energydump aswell
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Can someone check if 10 overlord with gas trick give any clear adventage?
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Happy to see the LP grow.
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On October 13 2010 21:39 diehilde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 21:08 Geo.Rion wrote:
I cant believe this. I ve been waiting for some ZVP help as i struggle so hard without doin mass muta ling, and what is the featured build? Muta ling.
AAND it starts with 15 hatch which is auto-loss against forge or gate-forge openers, which about 99.95% of the protosses do on ladder if they see you exp. The last part of this statement is true... 15 hatch is auto loss against any toss who scouts you in a reasonable time and knows that he still has enough time to throw down a forge after his gateway and cannon the shit outta your nat. Honestly, never ever go hatch before pool in ZvP.
agree. also relying on hatch first builds is never viable anyways since even a simple pylon to block your expo can fuck your build and force you into a normal pool build, just delayed <.<
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What does the number in the bracket stands for?
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hmm i'll give it a try
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On October 13 2010 15:02 jarek.exe wrote:
How do you stop canon rush in natural behind minerals with that build? And how do you defend against 4 warp gate push with a lot of sentry (FF own zerglings). How do you defend against fast double gate?
Im sorry to say, but this build is simply crap. It only works against terran, definitely not against protoss.
Of course it will work against protoss who is making a standard 1 gate-cyber build. But come on... a strategy has to be prepared for most builds, not only for one.
you just cancle the hatch if it is still building and let it die otherwise. Netx step is to react on what you know now:
He build an early forge, used minerals at your nat. Ideally he thinks he could use the forge to forge expand now. Personally, I just rush roaches and attack. I cannot remember a single game where I went 15hatch and had to face early cannons and lost the match. Just scew that hatchery and kill him.
You can use this great build as standard plan and just react to what is happening. The cannon rush is only one example. If you scout two gates on small maps or even proxy gates it should be clear that you don't still go for a 3rd hatch with only 1set of lings...
On October 14 2010 09:33 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 21:39 diehilde wrote:On October 13 2010 21:08 Geo.Rion wrote:
I cant believe this. I ve been waiting for some ZVP help as i struggle so hard without doin mass muta ling, and what is the featured build? Muta ling.
AAND it starts with 15 hatch which is auto-loss against forge or gate-forge openers, which about 99.95% of the protosses do on ladder if they see you exp. The last part of this statement is true... 15 hatch is auto loss against any toss who scouts you in a reasonable time and knows that he still has enough time to throw down a forge after his gateway and cannon the shit outta your nat. Honestly, never ever go hatch before pool in ZvP. agree. also relying on hatch first builds is never viable anyways since even a simple pylon to block your expo can fuck your build and force you into a normal pool build, just delayed <.<
the delay is not that large and you get a free pylon as soon as your units are out. In fact, the delay only delays your units and the extra drone you build even puts you a little in front in terms of economy compared to a one base opening. sure, the later units or bad for you but he had to sacrifice something, too
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A variant I've been working with for a while:
9 Overlord *scout right before the 10th drone finishes
14 Hatch, in-base
14 Pool
14 Gas
17 Overlord
17 Hatchery at Expansion (right as your overlord spawns)
Ling speed @ 100 gas
From there there is a lot of variance, you can focus a lot more on lings or get the gas to go straight to mutalisks. Lings with speed are actually very effective at defending against reaper rushes, and if you are pressured early you can avoid the expansion for a while and go strong mass-lings with your 2 hatcheries in base.
The reason for getting the second hatchery at 17 is that it is hard to defend before you get zerglings and you don't have enough drone saturation at your main to really justify getting a hatchery so soon at the expansion.
It sounds funny, but get a nice number of queens out as soon as possible for creep spread and larva injections, as well as defense from early air pressure.
Ensure with your initial scouting drone that your opponent isn't 2-gating, as that is pretty much the only problem that I have fighting. Terran with fast cloaked banshees can be a problem, but scouting should give you enough leeway to know what's up.
Try it before you call me crazy, it's amazing (don't ever try it in ZvZ, it's strictly ZvP and ZvT).
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On October 13 2010 06:27 Pixel. wrote:
How does this Strat agianst 4 gate ?
I assume it loses. Just like everything else. But i think that this is just a map to the build, there isnt just a build. Theres a build, plus adaptations you have to make to make the build work. I love the build/map however.
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Sick game. Great map to abuse this build.
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is the poster 1st~tsunami? hehe ovie on 10!
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I think I'll try this out some time. And if you face a terran wall with your lings, you could always get banes ^^
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I just used this against a toss and really the annoying part was more then roach/hydra was the ht because of how fast lings and mutas die. But I just built about 6 queens kept healing my mutas and replacing my lings. It is a fun build and I really enjoyed it a lot more then my roach hydra. So thanks for writing down this build
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Protoss can realy easy win with Expo 1st by zerg by going
1gate to 1forge and 2 cannons on zerg expo
Like NEXGenius did vs Rain today in GSL (2nd game)
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On October 18 2010 23:03 Miru wrote:
Protoss can realy easy win with Expo 1st by zerg by going
1gate to 1forge and 2 cannons on zerg expo
Like NEXGenius did vs Rain today in GSL (2nd game)
Yeah on maps where you have a shorter rush distance between the two bases that is tough to stop. If you are short rush distances like that I wonder how much building your pool first would hurt this build. That would at least give you the option to build lings to help defend if they went hyper aggressive like that.
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Thank's a lot for this!
I just returned from a match at ESL ladder.
I consider myself an avarage player, (ok above avarage since it seems SC2 is full of really cheesy people) and I play Zerg.
Anyways what I wanted to say, I practiced this build which I picked up from FruitSeller and you conveniently put it on liquipedia every day and a guy challenges me on ESL Ladder thinking I'm easy points. He is Diamond 300 games 190 wins and I'm Platinum around 50 games 30 wins.
And guess what I win and he calls me noob, lamer and zerg is op XD
That made my day. Thanks again Team Liquid!
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Pholon/Liquipedia/muta1.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Pholon/Liquipedia/muta2.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Pholon/Liquipedia/muta3.png)
