Starcraft Match Fixing Investigation: Meeting Prosecutor Lee Joon Shik
The Match Fixing Investigation, as told by the head prosecutor.
Recently there was an E-Sports Match Fixing Scandal that decorated the news headlines of the three major broadcasting companies and talked about around the world. The event caused a lot of shock and disappointment because the match fixing occurred in Starcraft, one of the most popular events amongst young adults, because the players involved were very young (in their 10s and early 20s), and also because a gang member was involved.
Related to this, Gumtori Reporting team has recently had the opportunity to meet the head prosecutor of the E-Sports match fixing case, Lee Joon Shik. There was a lot of interest as the Gumtori Reporting team composed of many college students who were familiar with Starcraft.
The below posting is a summary of the briefing provided by the Prosecutor, and because we changed wordings for convenience, we did not use quotation signs. The posting is composed of reporting related to the investigation and an interview with the head Prosecutor.
Summary of the Case
(1) The investigations began after receiving a report of match fixing, which had ceaseless rumors since the end of 2009. (2) Authorities have began investigating on April 2010, and have uncovered sixteen people, composing of eleven past and current progamers, three brokers that have instigated them, and two individuals who have used the information to bet on illegal betting sites. Out of these individuals, one broker who was heavily involved was arrested and charged, six current progamers were summary indicted, one individual under military service was transferred to military courts, and one of the brokers who is a gang member related to Suwon South Gate was put on the wanted list. (3)Brokers P,K,J used their connections with famous progamers W and M to give 2~6.5 million won to progamers to throw their matches. The gamers who have received this money followed instructions and fixed matches in a total of twelve matches, and brokers has used this information to bet on many illegal betting sites to make a large profit.
Characteristic of the Case
The biggest characteristic is that this is the first match fixing case where gamers (T/N: he seems to be implying "players") were directly involved. There was a matchfixing case in Korea recently where a private school soccer coach bribed a referee to fix a match, and there was a case a few years ago in Italian Professional Soccer involving match fixing which was talked about around the world. However, the case where the players would directly interfere with the matches to fix the matches happened for the first time in Korea (T/N: It's the first case in Korea, OR Korea is the first place it has happened. It's likely the latter interpretation). Match fixing was also easy because it was a one on one match unlike soccer or other sports. Furthermore, because the games were one on one, there were difficulties confirming conclusive evidence through investigations.
The investigations began concentrating on a few popular progamers that were predicted, but once two ex-Progamers and nine current progamers were found to have made bets, there was a de-facto need to expand the investigations.
As a result, the brokers were confirmed to be gang members, organizers of gamer schools (distinguished by guilds and clans), K-3 league soccer players, and they were found to be looking for profits and bribed gamers and participated in match fixing.
Is there anything different from what was reported in the Media?
Illegal betting sites are still in the early stages of development, and goes as far as 1.1~2.5x for betting odds on Starcraft. There are also cases where the sites choose the dividend as 3 million won, and there were many cases where the site operator ran away after receiving the bets. Due to all of this, the brokers did not make that much of a profit. Furthermore, there was a broker that has blackmailed a progamer saying that he will reveal the progamer's participation in match fixing.
Furthermore, because we have only revealed the initials due to the rights of our citizens to know, there was a lot of misunderstandings and rumors spread about a special person. This player has never received money to fix a match, and had only acted as a broker. This player received an offer to throw a match through special relationships with another match fixing participant, but is said to have rejected the offer upon thinking about it. However, when he discussed the matter with a fellow gamer, it was this gamer that participated in match fixing and thus the player hesitantly acted as a broker. This player, due to his fame, had a high betting rate in betting sites, and is said to have received a lot of offers for match fixing.
On the other hand there is a progamer that participated heavily. This progamer actively suggested to his team members, and in the end had his teammates throw matches in order. This player participated and made bets very often, and he betted very sneakily using an agent so he didn't have to use his real name. Furthermore, he leaked information to ex-progamers and others to get even more money. The investigation team requested an arrest warrant for this player but was rejected by the court, and so this progamer was charged without arrest.
How was the Match Fixing done? A scene from a match that was fixed
This is a question most asked by the reporters. Broadly speaking, there are three different ways. The first method was to play the game normally and purposely misclick in the deciding battle. Even if it's not on the level of the so called "Attack Ttang" method, the players would not control their units, or stop attacking and producing units to create a void in their army. However, after one of the progamers who used this method received a lot of criticism and suspicion on his life and potential as a progamer, other methods began being used.
The second method is to leak the build order. Due to properties of RTS, on certain maps when Zerg takes the natural, if Terran does a forward Barracks or a center Barracks, this creates a "rock paper scissors" situation where the 8 out of 10 times they will not be able to defend. Before a match like this, if the player leaks his build to his opponent before the match, the opponent is able to create a situation where he cannot lose. Furthermore in matches where this method was applied, players also deployed workers to defend their base one or two tempos late.
The third method is to pretend to be ignorant of the opponent's strategy. The biggest example was a Zerg versus Protoss match where the Zerg player continued to produce Mutalisks even after realizing his opponent was massing corsairs. After the game, when a coach pointed this out to the player, the player avoided suspicion by claiming that "I thought he would collect corsairs only for a while and transition into a ground army".
The Investigation Process
As implied earlier, there was some difficulties obtaining objective evidence because it was a one on one match. But because we were able to capture the brokers, and because the progamers were young, we were able to use their accounts or on some cases, their family accounts to easily recognize the flow of money to deduct a conclusion to the investigation.
During the process, there were progamers who acknowledged their crimes from the beginning, but there were progamers who played down their crimes, and players who completely denied the charges, saying "what do you think of me to think that?"
To the question "Are there more cases of match fixing", we can answer "there are none as far as we have investigated so far". This is because illegal betting in Starcraft began in August~September of 2009. Currently, there are investigations going on regarding the illegal betting sites, and the large majority of the betting sites used by the brokers were taken down during the investigations of this case.
The above was a summary of the briefing by Prosecutor Lee Joon Shik. The following is an Question and Answer interview between the blog reporters and the prosecutors. We have tried our best to remain faithful to what was said
Question 1: "Thank you for your briefing. We know that you are from an older generation, and so we were wondering if there were any difficulties in understanding the characteristics of E-Sports and Professional Starcraft.
"There weren't anything especially difficult. I know how to play this game, after all. There were times where I played this game all night when I was preparing for my judicial exams. Actually, because the head of the department was from an even older generation not familiar with e-Sports, we were able to report the progress and conclusions of the investigations a lot easier."
Question 2: "Because this case was a big issue amongst E-Sports fans and the younger generations, the case has attracted a lot of attentions. In fact, when the investigation process leaked the identities of the suspects, this lead to other damages. Furthermore, because a lot of progamers are public figures that are recognized, we also believe that they will have difficulties in society due to this. There are people who wonder if the investigation didn't care about releasing facts related to the suspects. What do you think of this?"
The homepage of a school attended by one of the progamers involved was terrorized, Money Today, 2010-05-24
Actually, Investigators put a lot of special attention and special care regarding releasing identities of the suspects. However, in this case, we released the the initials and dates because the case was a little different from when normal citizens are involved, and thus we found the need to release some information. If we didn't release any information, we believe that this causes problems regarding rights. We believed that respecting the right for curious reporters and citizens to know the truth, even at the cost of revealing sensitive information of the suspects, was for the greater good, because it was an investigation regarding progamers, who are public figures, and just in case there were problems regarding credibility of the investigations and other violations. Therefore, we released information restricted to initials and dates for this case. However, it is certain that investigators put a lot of care protecting the identities of the suspect."
Question 3: "The majority of E-Sports players have only played games from middle and highschool, and thus may be unaware of the gravity of their crimes because they haven't lived in society. We also believe that the original cause are illegal betting sites, and if you look at comments or chat rooms in online games, ads for these adult sites and illegal betting sites are overflowing. However we noticed that these advertisements hasn't slowed down at all and so we are wondering what kind of response investigators are preparing."
Failure to arrest the operators of illegal betting site, Fomos, 2010-05-17.
"Illegal betting sties often involve foreign countries, meaning that they use foreign servers, and in the past these servers were in China 80% of the time, Japan 20% of the time. Recently, however, many betting sites are operating from Eastern European countries, where investigations are difficult, and in some cases, they even come from Guatemala. While tracking foreign IPs isn't impossible, it is not easy. You also mentioned that the advertisements haven't slowed down, but dispatching police or investigators real time is difficult, and there are more difficulties getting evidence. Furthermore, illegal betting sites spring up everywhere, so it may look like they're not being stopped. However, investigators and the police are doing their best to stop illegal betting sites, and there are still investigations regarding illegal betting sites related to this case."
Question 4: "As you are from an older generation, you may have gotten a bad impression of E-Sports while investigating this case. I'm wondering what you would do if your kids told you they wanted to become a Progamer."
I want to become a progamer instead of a doctor.... The life and dreams of a progamer practice partner, Cookie News, 2006-11-17.
"In the current system, I would want to prevent them from becoming progamers. It's something I also felt while investigating, but I also think it's not correct for these young individuals to sacrifice a normal education and chances to grow as a person to live as a progamer. You can see this case as a result of progamers who weren't properly educated and didn't know how serious their crimes were. Furthermore, even workaholics rest on weekends like Saturday and Sunday, and on Holidays, so I feel really sorry for these kids who have to practice, play, practice, player, without rest. Another reason is that I don't want my children to have unorganized habits, and I know that most progamers have a nocturnal life style. Finally, from what I know, individuals who were involved in E-Sports the longest were people like commentator Lim Song Choon or player Lim Yo Han, most progamers have a much shorter career, and even if they succeed greatly, their road is limited to being a gamer or a commentator, so if my child really wants to become a progamer, I would think about it, but it's true that I would not want them to become a progamer."
Lee Joon Shik, as met by Gumtori is....
I was very interested in E-Sports so listening to the head prosecutor directly was a very special and informative time. Furthermore, i was surprised that he was able to play Starcraft, and know names of the units, strategies, and names of gamers very well. His sincerity allowed me to slightly break the stereotype I had of prosecutors.
My impression of him was that he was a bit strict and hard, but he also had a sharp mind and a passion for justice, so I thought he was really cool. Furthermore, he was humorous and sincere on his responses to Gumtori, so he felt more like a social science teacher in highschool more so than a Prosecutor.
-The 4th Gumtori Blog Reporter Team, Kim Taeyong, Lee Jungmin.
On the other hand there is a progamer that participated heavily. This progamer actively suggested to his team members, and in the end had his teammates throw matches in order. This player participated and made bets very often, and he betted very sneakily using an agent so he didn't have to use his real name. Furthermore, he leaked information to ex-progamers and others to get even more money. The investigation team requested an arrest warrant for this player but was rejected by the court, and so this progamer was charged without arrest.
I wonder who this could be..............
thanks for the translation! they're really getting to the bottom of this.
On the other hand there is a progamer that participated heavily. This progamer actively suggested to his team members, and in the end had his teammates throw matches in order. This player participated and made bets very often, and he betted very sneakily using an agent so he didn't have to use his real name. Furthermore, he leaked information to ex-progamers and others to get even more money. The investigation team requested an arrest warrant for this player but was rejected by the court, and so this progamer was charged without arrest.
I wonder who this could be..............
thanks for the translation! they're really getting to the bottom of this.
Wow... so looks like Savior wasn't lying when he said he had nothing to do with the match fixing other than brokering money between people. Its so sad that he was the face of the whole incident when he probably had the least to do with it out of all the people involved.
"player hesitantly acted as a broker." They even said hesitantly (in korean i guess). Can you guys imagine the situation? Savior probably didn't think match fixing was a good idea but some people probably gave him money and said pass it on to his teammate. How many of you would actually have reported your fellow teammate for throwing a match or would you just give him the money and want to have nothing further to do with it? IMO this information completely redeems Savior in my eyes.
"is said to have received a lot of offers for match fixing." and apparently rejected them all. I think Savior almost sounds like a good guy now when compared to the other match fixers. Its dissapointing that he had to be banned from Kespa.
On the other hand there is a progamer that participated heavily. This progamer actively suggested to his team members, and in the end had his teammates throw matches in order. This player participated and made bets very often, and he betted very sneakily using an agent so he didn't have to use his real name. Furthermore, he leaked information to ex-progamers and others to get even more money. The investigation team requested an arrest warrant for this player but was rejected by the court, and so this progamer was charged without arrest.
I wonder who this could be..............
thanks for the translation! they're really getting to the bottom of this.
My guess is Justin..
If his post wasn't sarcastic, its pretty obvious its Justin.
i can't believe it was justin of all ppl... it's one thing to pay gamers like M or J who were decent but fucken justin???? hey justin nice career hope u had fun bringing down ur whole team by getting ppl involved have fun in jail
The third method is to pretend to be ignorant of the opponent's strategy. The biggest example was a Zerg versus Protoss match where the Zerg player continued to produce Mutalisks even after realizing his opponent was massing corsairs. After the game, when a coach pointed this out to the player, the player avoided suspicion by claiming that "I thought he would collect corsairs only for a while and transition into a ground army".
If only they were as baller as shine, it would work out fine
Wow, this clears up a LOT of misinformation going on about this whole incident.
It's 100% clear that Savior was the "famous player" who only brokered the games. Hope his punishment isn't as bad as JUSTIN, who I'm almost 100% certain was the one getting his whole team involved.
Lock up the gang members and higher ups organizing this. Justin included.
Fine the hell out of the others, that will be punishment enough. They've already lost their careers probably forever. A new chapter begins for them: THE REAL WORLD.
As if many of us know anything about the real world.
But no - personally the good thing this whole report tells me is how gaming can be accepted as part of our daily life. I really like guys who can admit they played this game all night despite being older and despite being obviously strict persons. Should be a fun person to have arguments with.
Gaming is part of society. Like drinking. And with time it might integrate better than the latter one.
It does take out some of the magic of being called a 'nerd' though. Nowadays every brainless idiot who plays games all day can be called a nerd. I would call that a bad change.
Generally accepting that computers and thus gaming is part of our life now is a good thing, though. I would just prefer if more community events were organized around it in general for more matured people as well. Not only kids play games anymore. If I'm not old enough - even my dad wants to start playing Sims.
On June 09 2010 16:17 Milkis wrote: Furthermore, because we have only revealed the initials due to the rights of our citizens to know, there was a lot of misunderstandings and rumors spread about a special person. This player has never received money and fixed a match and only acted as a broker. This player received an offer to throw a match through special relationships with another match fixing participant, but is said to have rejected the offer upon thinking about it. However, when he discussed the matter with a fellow gamer, it was this gamer that participated in match fixing and thus the player hesitantly acted as a broker. This player, due to his fame, had a high betting rate in betting sites, and is said to have received a lot of offers for match fixing.
That is very good to know, while it still wasntgood anyway, at least it's good to know Savior wasn't lying and that he wasn't the most involved in it (and that he didn't fix matches himself)
On June 09 2010 16:17 Milkis wrote: The third method is to pretend to be ignorant of the opponent's strategy. The biggest example was a Zerg versus Protoss match where the Zerg player continued to produce Mutalisks even after realizing his opponent was massing corsairs. After the game, when a coach pointed this out to the player, the player avoided suspicion by claiming that "I thought he would collect corsairs only for a while and transition into a ground army".
This is obviously not a reference to Type-B versus Best on Outsider in the 2009 Bacchus OSL. Not at all.
On June 09 2010 19:31 Rekrul wrote: u guys who are relieved about savior r completely reading this wrong and missing a lot of details
l o l fanboys
I dunno, the article says "This player has never received money and fixed a match and only acted as a broker"; doesn't seem like there's much hidden details there, unless I'm missing something?
Obviously acting as a broker (even 'hesitantly' ) is a terrible, stupid thing to do, but the impression I had before was quite a bit worse.
On June 09 2010 19:31 Rekrul wrote: u guys who are relieved about savior r completely reading this wrong and missing a lot of details
l o l fanboys
I dunno, the article says "This player has never received money and fixed a match and only acted as a broker"; doesn't seem like there's much hidden details there, unless I'm missing something?
Obviously acting as a broker (even 'hesitantly' ) is a terrible, stupid thing to do, but the impression I had before was quite a bit worse.
After noticing the game represented in the article was Hwasin vs Luxury (both involved game-throwers), I think it'd be hilarious if there was a game where both sides were individually contacted to throw the game. They'd both try to lose and it would just look hilarious XD
Good article, very informative. I appreciate the respect they're giving progamers, but claiming a lack of education is responsible for these guys' (who are by no means the youngest progamers) actions is a bit much.
Well, this clears up what was going on at the Sparkyz house.
On June 09 2010 22:25 Nightmarjoo wrote: Good article, very informative. I appreciate the respect they're giving progamers, but claiming a lack of education is responsible for these guys' (who are by no means the youngest progamers) actions is a bit much.
Agreed. It's like saying no one who's had a proper education will turn to crime... and all I have to say to that is, LOL.
On June 09 2010 19:31 Rekrul wrote: u guys who are relieved about savior r completely reading this wrong and missing a lot of details
l o l fanboys
I dunno, the article says "This player has never received money and fixed a match and only acted as a broker"; doesn't seem like there's much hidden details there, unless I'm missing something?
Obviously acting as a broker (even 'hesitantly' ) is a terrible, stupid thing to do, but the impression I had before was quite a bit worse.
You really think this article is the whole truth?
Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but I think the Chief Prosecutor is a bit more reliable than just gossip and hearsay. You can speculate as much as you want about what may not have been uncovered, but that's silly imo. savior being a broker is bad enough; there's no need to try to pin more on him unless it's actually been proven.
LOL at Savior fanboys crying for redemption. Getting other people to fix matches is worse than fixing your own matches, since you're actively working to bring down multiple players in the league/spread corruption, and if you seriously believe it stopped there you're nuts. The prosecutor just can't say anything more because there hasn't been a conviction yet.
Sounds like a sensible guy with a reasonable amount of knowledge of the scene.
Yeah, tedster is right, being a broker is even worse than simply being a match-fixer because you're corrupting others as well. And if this person avoided match-fixing himself on purpose, maybe he already knew it was sketchy/illegal and avoided getting involved himself but still induced others to do it, which makes him even worse in my eyes.
Still, it's surprisingly assuring to hear that they're pretty sure there's no one else involved, rather than only being able to catch a few of the perps...sounds like something the industry would want us to know, rather than the prosecutors. Good news if true.
On June 09 2010 23:03 tedster wrote: LOL at Savior fanboys crying for redemption. Getting other people to fix matches is worse than fixing your own matches, since you're actively working to bring down multiple players in the league/spread corruption, and if you seriously believe it stopped there you're nuts. The prosecutor just can't say anything more because there hasn't been a conviction yet.
Yeah seriously. If you were a mere Go.go and threw games because you wanted cash, you harmed yourself and your team but you didn't really end up directly making the issue even worse.
By being a broker, you are pretty much the reason why people could earn cash by throwing games and you are pretty much the reason why people started doing it.
On June 09 2010 23:03 tedster wrote: LOL at Savior fanboys crying for redemption. Getting other people to fix matches is worse than fixing your own matches, since you're actively working to bring down multiple players in the league/spread corruption, and if you seriously believe it stopped there you're nuts. The prosecutor just can't say anything more because there hasn't been a conviction yet.
guess you didn't read the article. he didn't get anyone to fix matches. The one who did that was Justin. Litterally all Savior did was just transfer some money from one person to another. Thats it. For all we know he may have only done it one time.
On June 09 2010 23:03 tedster wrote: LOL at Savior fanboys crying for redemption. Getting other people to fix matches is worse than fixing your own matches, since you're actively working to bring down multiple players in the league/spread corruption, and if you seriously believe it stopped there you're nuts. The prosecutor just can't say anything more because there hasn't been a conviction yet.
guess you didn't read the article. he didn't get anyone to fix matches. The one who did that was Justin. Litterally all Savior did was just transfer some money from one person to another. Thats it. For all we know he may have only done it one time.
You are ignorant and have no comprehension skills. And it's been said time and time again that he did it multiple times.
On June 09 2010 23:03 tedster wrote: LOL at Savior fanboys crying for redemption. Getting other people to fix matches is worse than fixing your own matches, since you're actively working to bring down multiple players in the league/spread corruption, and if you seriously believe it stopped there you're nuts. The prosecutor just can't say anything more because there hasn't been a conviction yet.
guess you didn't read the article. he didn't get anyone to fix matches. The one who did that was Justin. Litterally all Savior did was just transfer some money from one person to another. Thats it. For all we know he may have only done it one time.
You are ignorant and have no comprehension skills. And it's been said time and time again that he did it multiple times.
You have to remember that things that have been said time and time again are not always right. It was said time and time again that he profitted so much money, and people pointing out expensive items of clothing that he wore time and time again, when according to the prosecutor, he never made any money. People used to say Savior threw matches and bet on his own games to profit massive amounts, but now it was revealed that he never did any of that. The prosecutor guy said himself that many of the rumors about Savior were misunderstandings.
And even if he did broker multiple times, You guys are looking too much into it thinking that he was some deceitful guy brokering money for profit and influencing people to throw matches, when in reality his teammate (friend?) probably just asked him to get the money from the guy and give it to him, and savior was just doing him a favor, even if it was wrong. Which sounds more likely?
And I don't know how you can say I have no comprehension skills since thats quite obviously exactly what the article said.
Agreed, if he got paid to move the money then ban him, that is obvious which is why I listed my assumptions in the post.
I think it is likely that he got paid, thus the charges. However I do not think it beyond the realm of possibility that he did not get paid. I was just trying to address that possibility
On June 10 2010 03:09 Varbind wrote: If all Savior did was pass money from one person to another then I feel his ban should be lifted.
Assumptions based upon reading the article:
-Savior got zero profit from this scandal -He did not try to persuade anyone to fix matches -He turned down multiple offers to fix matches
Yea i'm sure he was acting as a broker for free.
Seriously...
According to the article, he "has never received money". Like I said before, he probably wasn't an officially employed broker, most likely his game throwing friend just asked him to get the money for him.
Wow, maybe this was very obvious but this is probably why they changed the way the PL lineups work and the games aren't pre selected therefore it makes it harder to be on matches. Betting to lose individual leagues is harsh though.
On June 10 2010 03:09 Varbind wrote: If all Savior did was pass money from one person to another then I feel his ban should be lifted.
Assumptions based upon reading the article:
-Savior got zero profit from this scandal -He did not try to persuade anyone to fix matches -He turned down multiple offers to fix matches
Yea i'm sure he was acting as a broker for free.
Seriously...
According to the article, he "has never received money". Like I said before, he probably wasn't an officially employed broker, most likely his game throwing friend just asked him to get the money for him.
Sorry, that was my mistake. He "never received money for match fixing", but doesn't imply that he has "never received money" period. I noticed my wording was a bit confusing and I fixed it. Sorry for the confusion.
When playing SC, I find it hard to lose and make it seem like I was trying.. Like, if you go fast expo zerg to try and lose and you scout the barrax by mistake..Are you going to ignore and seem like you lost on purpose or throw down some sunkens.. I mean if they were that stupid to ignore the barrax in the middle and keep building drones then they aren't serious about starcraft (well, obviously not since they threw games) but you would think that the team wouldn't send out that player to play again, atleast not for awhile.
Also, I would be interested to see if there were any games that were suppose to be thrown but the progammer who was suppose to lose, wins.. Would he get kicked out of the "betting circle"..?
On June 10 2010 04:18 NuKedUFirst wrote: Also, I would be interested to see if there were any games that were suppose to be thrown but the progammer who was suppose to lose, wins.. Would he get kicked out of the "betting circle"..?
Well, in other sports where the Mafia would be involved, that player would lose their kneecaps.
Wait, didn't Savior have surgury for knee problems?
On June 10 2010 03:52 Skillz_Man wrote: Wow, maybe this was very obvious but this is probably why they changed the way the PL lineups work and the games aren't pre selected therefore it makes it harder to be on matches. Betting to lose individual leagues is harsh though.
On June 10 2010 03:09 Varbind wrote: If all Savior did was pass money from one person to another then I feel his ban should be lifted.
Assumptions based upon reading the article:
-Savior got zero profit from this scandal -He did not try to persuade anyone to fix matches -He turned down multiple offers to fix matches
Yea i'm sure he was acting as a broker for free.
Seriously...
According to the article, he "has never received money". Like I said before, he probably wasn't an officially employed broker, most likely his game throwing friend just asked him to get the money for him.
Sorry, that was my mistake. He "never received money for match fixing", but doesn't imply that he has "never received money" period. I noticed my wording was a bit confusing and I fixed it. Sorry for the confusion.
Oh ok thanks, so I guess were back to the beginning with we don't know if he was paid or not then.
Furthermore, there was a broker that has blackmailed a progamer saying that he will reveal the progamer's participation in match fixing.
This is interesting since the only reason for blackmail would be if the "progamer" in question had wanted to do something like either stop throwing matches or report them. Who knows maybe this progamer was even Savior and maybe after his initial involvement he was forced to continue and become a broker. Of course this could be anyone, but its unfortunate for whoever it was because this person probably realized his mistake and wanted to quit but was forced to continue.
As a former sAviOr groupie, I find it hard to believe he wasn't throwing games now. 1. He's involved in some capacity with match fixing and betting 2. His performance drops completely off the map, and for a time consistently makes bad decisions or forgets Adrenaline. It's possible he was only a broker and his game slipped only by coincidence, but I don't buy it.
You can't forget the humiliating defeat to FBH and then Bisu in the MSL finals 3:0. Those clearly weren't him throwing the game. I think there's a fairly good chance he really did just start falling =/ I mean common, there's a difference between throwing a game here and there, and throwing EVERY game. If sAviOr made any money from losing on purpose, it was before his slump, not after.
I think I'll wait for more details before deciding what I think, but really any amount of involvement doesn't look good for sAviOr. A strong sense of morality and duty is something star players need to embody.
This kind of feels like map hacker witch hunts... Players make mistakes, especially when they're under a lot of pressure. Nony didn't forget storm on purpose. Lots of people who are really good have accidentally built two of the same tech building in the odd game. The evidence isn't going to come from the game, it's going to come from records of money transfer.
On June 10 2010 03:52 Skillz_Man wrote: Wow, maybe this was very obvious but this is probably why they changed the way the PL lineups work and the games aren't pre selected therefore it makes it harder to be on matches. Betting to lose individual leagues is harsh though.
They've already said this was it.
On June 10 2010 07:14 Jibba wrote: As a former sAviOr groupie, I find it hard to believe he wasn't throwing games now. 1. He's involved in some capacity with match fixing and betting 2. His performance drops completely off the map, and for a time consistently makes bad decisions or forgets Adrenaline. It's possible he was only a broker and his game slipped only by coincidence, but I don't buy it.
It's possible that he was throwing matches (considering his involvement in brokering already), but they couldn't prove it enough to charge it, just like its almost a certainty that there were more than 11 players involved and more than 12 total matches thrown and that the money earned from all of this was a lot more than the few hundred dollars claimed but as it stands this is what they could prove enough to charge.
As a savior fanboy, to me it's huge that he didn't throw his games. Yeah still pissed about what he did and i can't admire him as a person anymore, but I can at least still admire his play.
On June 10 2010 04:18 NuKedUFirst wrote: Also, I would be interested to see if there were any games that were suppose to be thrown but the progammer who was suppose to lose, wins.. Would he get kicked out of the "betting circle"..?
Well, in other sports where the Mafia would be involved, that player would lose their kneecaps.
Wait, didn't Savior have surgury for knee problems?
WAITWAT O SHI--
:O! Only problem is knees dont do much for Savior as athletes lol
On June 10 2010 07:14 Jibba wrote: As a former sAviOr groupie, I find it hard to believe he wasn't throwing games now. 1. He's involved in some capacity with match fixing and betting 2. His performance drops completely off the map, and for a time consistently makes bad decisions or forgets Adrenaline. It's possible he was only a broker and his game slipped only by coincidence, but I don't buy it.
Yes because your hunch is a lot more informative than an investigation.
On June 10 2010 03:15 Varbind wrote: Agreed, if he got paid to move the money then ban him, that is obvious which is why I listed my assumptions in the post.
I think it is likely that he got paid, thus the charges. However I do not think it beyond the realm of possibility that he did not get paid. I was just trying to address that possibility
Thank you very much for the translation. Will be nice when finally all the dust is completely settled and all the facts are out.
I still love my man Savior. Many of you admired him for obvious reasons on his rise to fame and even his fall, anyone who watched BW more than 3 years ago does. After how much I cheer for him I am going to give him the full benefit of the doubt. I am not defending his actions even IF he did actually throw games, and definitely not corrupting and leading others into it. But it's easy to judge from so far away. You really don't know what he was going through at this time in his life, no one really does. Maybe he was kinda forced into this by the goons of the pay sites once he was in a little involved or maybe he was just totally blinded by the money. The life of a pro-gamer isn't exactly normal on the way up, it's hard to know where he was coming from.
Everyone's human and obviously even our Zerg god, I'll still love Savior even though I am obviously a minority.
Having said that the scandal is truly disgusting, I will still love and watch BW for as long as possible though.
On June 10 2010 07:14 Jibba wrote: As a former sAviOr groupie, I find it hard to believe he wasn't throwing games now. 1. He's involved in some capacity with match fixing and betting 2. His performance drops completely off the map, and for a time consistently makes bad decisions or forgets Adrenaline. It's possible he was only a broker and his game slipped only by coincidence, but I don't buy it.
Yes because your hunch is a lot more informative than an investigation.
It's a South Korean investigation.
The games are right there before your eyes. I'm not saying you should believe me, but you should go back and watch his decline.
On June 10 2010 03:52 Skillz_Man wrote: Wow, maybe this was very obvious but this is probably why they changed the way the PL lineups work and the games aren't pre selected therefore it makes it harder to be on matches. Betting to lose individual leagues is harsh though.
On June 10 2010 07:14 Jibba wrote: As a former sAviOr groupie, I find it hard to believe he wasn't throwing games now. 1. He's involved in some capacity with match fixing and betting 2. His performance drops completely off the map, and for a time consistently makes bad decisions or forgets Adrenaline. It's possible he was only a broker and his game slipped only by coincidence, but I don't buy it.
It's possible that he was throwing matches (considering his involvement in brokering already), but they couldn't prove it enough to charge it, just like its almost a certainty that there were more than 11 players involved and more than 12 total matches thrown and that the money earned from all of this was a lot more than the few hundred dollars claimed but as it stands this is what they could prove enough to charge.
Personally i think this post is the most logical one in the entire thread.
People thinking savior got nothing out of brokering are deluding themselves, no one participates in illegal activities without some incentive to make money. And with saviors salary i doubt that he would do it for a small fee as his entire career was on the line.
On top of that, he was a favorite in so many matches for so long it is hard to imagine he wouldn't make his associates some extra money(and himself) by throwing some matches here and there.
On June 09 2010 16:17 Milkis wrote:The third method is to pretend to be ignorant of the opponent's strategy. The biggest example was a Zerg versus Protoss match where the Zerg player continued to produce Mutalisks even after realizing his opponent was massing corsairs. After the game, when a coach pointed this out to the player, the player avoided suspicion by claiming that "I thought he would collect corsairs only for a while and transition into a ground army".
I know that this was mentioned before with a Shine v. Bisu game, but I read this and was thinking, isn't this exactly what Jaedong did against Stork in the third game of the EVER OSL? Keep making mutalisks even after seeing Stork had a bunch of corsairs and cannons everywhere? I couldn't help but wonder that, if he had lost a game like that in a circumstance outside of the OSL, would people accuse him of fixing the game? I think that the examples that they gave of how progamers fixed their matches makes speculation as to particular games even more ridiculous, because of how subtle they are. Even progamers might accidentally miss a round of production at some point, as can be seen from how dominating Flash is because he doesn't, and I don't think anyone micros battles perfectly.
I do remember one game where Jaedong pretty much masses mutas only and fails horribly against movie's jihadsairs. Although I'd always thought that game was just Jaedong getting too cocky, or his z key broke or something stupid.
On June 10 2010 17:00 Spyfire242 wrote: I dream of an innocent sAviOr, but he is definitely not in the clear yet...
Wow, people are incredibly stupid. He already admitted to participating the match fixing/betting. He is guilty. He almost certainly is guilty of far more than they stuck him with as well, they just didn't have proof.
Nobody assists in illegal brokering without getting a cut. Are you people honestly suggesting he suggested match fixing and acted as a transaction conduit/middleman because he was just such a friendly guy and was willing to donate his time and integrity for free to help the charitable cause of fixing games?
My god, the ignorance here is ridiculous. You people need to realise just how dumb you sound.
"In the current system, I would want to prevent them from becoming progamers. It's something I also felt while investigating, but I also think it's not correct for these young individuals to sacrifice a normal education and chances to grow as a person to live as a progamer. You can see this case as a result of progamers who weren't properly educated and didn't know how serious their crimes were. Furthermore, even workaholics rest on weekends like Saturday and Sunday, and on Holidays, so I feel really sorry for these kids who have to practice, play, practice, player, without rest. Another reason is that I don't want my children to have unorganized habits, and I know that most progamers have a nocturnal life style. Finally, from what I know, individuals who were involved in E-Sports the longest were people like commentator Lim Song Choon or player Lim Yo Han, most progamers have a much shorter career, and even if they succeed greatly, their road is limited to being a gamer or a commentator, so if my child really wants to become a progamer, I would think about it, but it's true that I would not want them to become a progamer."
I think the most important thing to take from all this is that progaming is not a good career. You don't want to be like these kids, being forced into thinking that they have to cheat in order to live a good lifestyle after next generation of gamers replaces them. Boxer says to follow your dreams in his autobiography, but if your dream is to become a pro gamer, you should realize how bad the situation is.
At least have a backup if you want to do something crazy like this.
I can't tell you how many kids in China, and Korea, probably all countries with pc bangs, skip school to play games. The reason is simple, they fear coming home and being yelled at for not living up to the expectations of their parents. Then these kids develop an addiction from using games to escape their fears, to not have to think about it for a moment. As the addiction worsens, they do worse in school, and a dangerous cycle develops. Someone needs to make a documentary on this, the lives of millions hangs in the balance, and parents need to change how they raise their children.
"The third method is to pretend to be ignorant of the opponent's strategy. The biggest example was a Zerg versus Protoss match where the Zerg player continued to produce Mutalisks even after realizing his opponent was massing corsairs."
So far we don't know the names of any toss involved? Because they are refeering to a speciifc game aren't they? So, who is it?
On June 11 2010 04:39 gergut.com wrote: "The third method is to pretend to be ignorant of the opponent's strategy. The biggest example was a Zerg versus Protoss match where the Zerg player continued to produce Mutalisks even after realizing his opponent was massing corsairs."
So far we don't know the names of any toss involved? Because they are refeering to a speciifc game aren't they? So, who is it?
That game you quoted was more than likely Best vs Type-B on Outsider, where Type-B had like at least 6 gas, yet still lost to Best's Sair/Reaver. The worst part about it was that Type-B just screwed around, threw away mutas, then suicided into mass sairs with all his mutas later on.
On June 11 2010 04:39 gergut.com wrote: "The third method is to pretend to be ignorant of the opponent's strategy. The biggest example was a Zerg versus Protoss match where the Zerg player continued to produce Mutalisks even after realizing his opponent was massing corsairs."
So far we don't know the names of any toss involved? Because they are refeering to a speciifc game aren't they? So, who is it?
That game you quoted was more than likely Best vs Type-B on Outsider, where Type-B had like at least 6 gas, yet still lost to Best's Sair/Reaver. The worst part about it was that Type-B just screwed around, threw away mutas, then suicided into mass sairs with all his mutas later on.
If I recall, Type-B won the previous game and next game in that bo3 and went on to advance farther in that OSL.
What's the point of throwing a game if you're still going to win the series?
Tbh I still don't really blame any of them for fixing games. It makes perfect sense in their situations, especially given that Savior apparently didn't make any money from it.
I think being banned is too harsh for Savior. I believe he should be either suspended or fined, and subjected to any criminal sentences, but not forced into retirement. Well, with Blizzard and KeSPA so far, he can join SC2 hopefully...
The scene from the match fixed game in the OP I always thought was pretty ridiculous if it's the game I'm thinking of. Is that also the game where the zerg actually ends up barely defending with 1 drone left and makes mutas and puts terran at his nat and then just abruptly GGs even thought he could possibly recover.
Is the OP trying to suggest that there hasn't been players fixing matches in any sports before or just esports? Because there has been players fixing matches in Finnish baseball for example.
On June 11 2010 04:39 gergut.com wrote: "The third method is to pretend to be ignorant of the opponent's strategy. The biggest example was a Zerg versus Protoss match where the Zerg player continued to produce Mutalisks even after realizing his opponent was massing corsairs."
So far we don't know the names of any toss involved? Because they are refeering to a speciifc game aren't they? So, who is it?
That game you quoted was more than likely Best vs Type-B on Outsider, where Type-B had like at least 6 gas, yet still lost to Best's Sair/Reaver. The worst part about it was that Type-B just screwed around, threw away mutas, then suicided into mass sairs with all his mutas later on.
If I recall, Type-B won the previous game and next game in that bo3 and went on to advance farther in that OSL.
What's the point of throwing a game if you're still going to win the series?
They arnt necessarily betting on the series, just the individual games. That or they need him to lose one game to break 3-0 bets. etc.
they need to make it illegal for people under the age of 18 to be progamers. It's harsh to a lot of current underage progamers but it's so much more ethical than what is going on right now.
On June 11 2010 06:46 Piy wrote: Tbh I still don't really blame any of them for fixing games. It makes perfect sense in their situations, especially given that Savior apparently didn't make any money from it.
He's an accessory to the crime. Wow, you guys have so much to learn about laws.
Fixing games is just as bad as hacking. You are detracting from the competitive spirit. You cannot just slap them on the wrists and say, "ur bad." You got to make an example and that is what they did. Set an example. If they weren't happy with the lifestyle they could have easily packed their shit and head out the front door. Being a pro gamer isn't for everyone. There's a price to pay in every sport and BW is no exception. I'm surprised there isn't a term that outlines this when they sign onto a team.
lol? I'm hoping this was a joke. I hope you're not seriously implying that Korea's "investigations" aren't worth anything due to whatever reasons, because that's the most ridiculous things I've ever seen someone say in order to support their claim.
Don't make offensive statements like that. What in the world -_-
lol? I'm hoping this was a joke. I hope you're not seriously implying that Korea's "investigations" aren't worth anything due to whatever reasons, because that's the most ridiculous things I've ever seen someone say in order to support their claim.
Don't make offensive statements like that. What in the world -_-
i believe all he was saying is that korea as a whole has vested interest in only releasing as little information as they can to appease the masses without ruining the credibility of the sport, and if that means turning their head to alot of crimes, i'm certain they are capable of that for the greater good of the country
lol? I'm hoping this was a joke. I hope you're not seriously implying that Korea's "investigations" aren't worth anything due to whatever reasons, because that's the most ridiculous things I've ever seen someone say in order to support their claim.
Don't make offensive statements like that. What in the world -_-
i believe all he was saying is that korea as a whole has vested interest in only releasing as little information as they can to appease the masses without ruining the credibility of the sport, and if that means turning their head to alot of crimes, i'm certain they are capable of that for the greater good of the country
shit, since when were you so soft spoken and conciliatory
On June 09 2010 16:15 Disastorm wrote: Wow... so looks like Savior wasn't lying when he said he had nothing to do with the match fixing other than brokering money between people. Its so sad that he was the face of the whole incident when he probably had the least to do with it out of all the people involved.
"player hesitantly acted as a broker." They even said hesitantly (in korean i guess). Can you guys imagine the situation? Savior probably didn't think match fixing was a good idea but some people probably gave him money and said pass it on to his teammate. How many of you would actually have reported your fellow teammate for throwing a match or would you just give him the money and want to have nothing further to do with it? IMO this information completely redeems Savior in my eyes.
"is said to have received a lot of offers for match fixing." and apparently rejected them all. I think Savior almost sounds like a good guy now when compared to the other match fixers. Its dissapointing that he had to be banned from Kespa.
Sorry, this may be an uninformed question, but who was the teammate Savior "hesitantly acted as a broker" for? I don't remember any other CJ players on the match fixing players list.
On June 09 2010 16:15 Disastorm wrote: Wow... so looks like Savior wasn't lying when he said he had nothing to do with the match fixing other than brokering money between people. Its so sad that he was the face of the whole incident when he probably had the least to do with it out of all the people involved.
"player hesitantly acted as a broker." They even said hesitantly (in korean i guess). Can you guys imagine the situation? Savior probably didn't think match fixing was a good idea but some people probably gave him money and said pass it on to his teammate. How many of you would actually have reported your fellow teammate for throwing a match or would you just give him the money and want to have nothing further to do with it? IMO this information completely redeems Savior in my eyes.
"is said to have received a lot of offers for match fixing." and apparently rejected them all. I think Savior almost sounds like a good guy now when compared to the other match fixers. Its dissapointing that he had to be banned from Kespa.
Sorry, this may be an uninformed question, but who was the teammate Savior "hesitantly acted as a broker" for? I don't remember any other CJ players on the match fixing players list.
The article never says anything about a teammate it just says "a fellow gamer" and i'm pretty sure it's talking about hwasin? don't know for sure though :S
lol? I'm hoping this was a joke. I hope you're not seriously implying that Korea's "investigations" aren't worth anything due to whatever reasons, because that's the most ridiculous things I've ever seen someone say in order to support their claim.
Don't make offensive statements like that. What in the world -_-
like rekrul, I believe it's more of a case of "the police are corrupt and ineffective" vs "korea is corrupt and ineffective"
... However, the case where the players would directly interfere with the matches to fix the matches happened for the first time in Korea (T/N: It's the first case in Korea, OR Korea is the first place it has happened. It's likely the latter interpretation) ...
I think you mean former interpretation, not latter. I'm basing this on the sentence before the translator note: you said that it happened for the first time in Korea which is analogous to the first case in Korea.
so tedster, you seem pretty confident that savior was basically being some bookie's errand boy and are following this. who's to say he didn't get money, but got pressured by gang-related people so he would stay involved as a valuable connection? by the same token, basically any and all of these people (though i doubt all obv) could be pressured, and while they still did illegal shit, it's a very different scenario when people who will kill you if you don't pay them are demanding you do so.
On June 11 2010 04:39 gergut.com wrote: "The third method is to pretend to be ignorant of the opponent's strategy. The biggest example was a Zerg versus Protoss match where the Zerg player continued to produce Mutalisks even after realizing his opponent was massing corsairs."
So far we don't know the names of any toss involved? Because they are refeering to a speciifc game aren't they? So, who is it?
That game you quoted was more than likely Best vs Type-B on Outsider, where Type-B had like at least 6 gas, yet still lost to Best's Sair/Reaver. The worst part about it was that Type-B just screwed around, threw away mutas, then suicided into mass sairs with all his mutas later on.
If I recall, Type-B won the previous game and next game in that bo3 and went on to advance farther in that OSL.
What's the point of throwing a game if you're still going to win the series?
They arnt necessarily betting on the series, just the individual games. That or they need him to lose one game to break 3-0 bets. etc.
The thing with this logic is that, Type-B would have had to win game 3, which he had no control over. Saying that he blew game 2 to break 3-0 bet seems a little far-fetched.
On June 11 2010 04:39 gergut.com wrote: "The third method is to pretend to be ignorant of the opponent's strategy. The biggest example was a Zerg versus Protoss match where the Zerg player continued to produce Mutalisks even after realizing his opponent was massing corsairs."
So far we don't know the names of any toss involved? Because they are refeering to a speciifc game aren't they? So, who is it?
That game you quoted was more than likely Best vs Type-B on Outsider, where Type-B had like at least 6 gas, yet still lost to Best's Sair/Reaver. The worst part about it was that Type-B just screwed around, threw away mutas, then suicided into mass sairs with all his mutas later on.
If I recall, Type-B won the previous game and next game in that bo3 and went on to advance farther in that OSL.
What's the point of throwing a game if you're still going to win the series?
They arnt necessarily betting on the series, just the individual games. That or they need him to lose one game to break 3-0 bets. etc.
The thing with this logic is that, Type-B would have had to win game 3, which he had no control over. Saying that he blew game 2 to break 3-0 bet seems a little far-fetched.
maybe the other dude was paid off. who the fuck knows. i am so paranoid now. to think that i shook savior's hand and was all over his dick at blizzcon makes me mad now. fuck em all. lock em all up and throw away the key. if your willing to throw a game of starcraft just think what else they would be willing to do. what scums of the earth!
On June 13 2010 22:13 FVV190 wrote: hi. this post was translated into chinese and posted on http://bbs.wfbrood.com/thread-15946-1-1.html by Terri (wfbrood.terr) and me (wfbrood.FVV190).
Nice post, through a bit fuzzy to understand. Thanks very much for translating it and sorry for the late reply.
Thanks, but could you rehost the images onto another site if possible? The images are on my webserver so I rather not have it use up too much bandwidth.
On June 17 2010 13:05 TriniMasta[wD] wrote: wow I remember that game the screenshot was taken from
Could someone please post a link to the match? Or is that against the rules?
I think KeSPA and other companies want all this information confidential, sorry =O EDIT: I don't think this is against the rules, as the information is already from the screenshot and other public info, not from my own knowledge. It was STX vs KT, and the popular zerg known for matchfixing was Luxury. Find all Terran games played on Tornado in the proleague that Lux played, and you'll find it soon enough. EDIT: nvm im an idiot, everyone knows about this already
[QUOTE]On June 20 2010 10:25 TriniMasta[wD] wrote: [QUOTE] EDIT: nvm im an idiot, everyone knows about this already [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya_EqIZ8RRY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya_EqIZ8RRY[/url][/QUOTE]
It's really interesting to watch their expressions knowing that the match was fixed. Just trying to read what might have been going through their heads at the time.
I know I'm really necroing this thread but I noticed something that really bothered me....
On June 09 2010 16:17 Milkis wrote: If we didn't release any information, we believe that this causes problems regarding rights. We believed that respecting the right for curious reporters and citizens to know the truth, even at the cost of revealing sensitive information of the suspects, was for the greater good
This is an extremely dangerous thought process. Look at SangHo. His whole career was completely ruined because he was accused of match fixing, and the accusations weren't even accurate. The whole thing was done "for the right of curious citizens to know the truth," and yet you cannot "un-release" information about someone, even if it's not true.
EPT
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