EPT[SC2B] Zerg: The Evolution (or Devolution) - Page 9
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VereZ
France34 Posts
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Badjas
Netherlands2038 Posts
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
I was looking around trying to find this thread. I was like "No way that thread was closed?!?!" | ||
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Slurgi
United States118 Posts
On April 22 2010 03:24 Two_DoWn wrote: After thinking about what I want to see change with\ zerg, yet still be realistic, here go my ideas/conclusions. 1: Crack! Needs to be buffed. Like a lot. Blizz needs to go too far with this one, at least at first. I want to see if throwing lings back into the mix at hive will open up more options with ultras, lord/ling, mass ling/roach, or something of that sort. If it works, cool! If not, we know we have some serious problems that need to be addressed in future expansions. 2: Make the Nydus Network the prereq for Hive, move infestor pit to Hive, combined with an cost increase on infestors. Then, give back a larger range for parasite, keep growth the same, and make infested terran an exploding heal for zerg instead of exploding damage. More movement options for zerg, allowing for players to pick offensive or defensive styles. Infestors at hive, combined with a cost increase allows for spell power-ups that add a bit more flavor to zerg beyond get infestors=growth the shit out of MMM. 3: Do something with corruptors. Right now, they only seem to be useful as the prereq for broodlords, and not as actual AA units (just my observations, I could be wrong, I dont have a key). Perhaps add spawn broodling to the corruptor in addition to an AA damage buff. That way corrupters actually make sense as the devolved forms of broodlords. Regarding point 1: I agree that the upgrade needs a buff. I like the idea that zerglings are viable early, then a bit lackluster midgame only to be fueled with zerg hive fury later. They still shouldn't work against a ranged-unit ball, but if their DPS was sufficiently high they could be used to rapidly take down isolated expansions, units away from their ball, workers, etc. To be honest, I'm not even sure how much their DPS is increased by the hive upgrade (I play terran), but it doesn't seem like zergs get it, so it must not be worth much. I could be wrong though. Point 2: Yea, I'd like to see infestors and queens get more flavor. Both of them are one-skill-wonders, which is a bit too bad. Granted, so were high-templars in SC1. I know I've had some pretty devastating fungal growths thrown at me. I do know for a fact it has higher range than marauders can shoot, as I had a marauder clump get stuck in place, permanently, then destroyed after 2-3 fungal growths. It sucked. Point 3: I think the problem is that hydralisks are such effective anti-air that even though they lack the mobility of air units, they are heinously efficient at dispatching air units. Regarding all your points as a whole: Zerg needs to be made more interesting, not more powerful. I will say that perhaps my TvZ is particularly poor, but I find it to be the most difficult matchup. TvT is easily the easiest, and that either means my own skill at the non-mirror matchups is lacking, or that terran is in need of a bit of oomph. I don't really know how most other terrans feel about their matchups though. | ||
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Gnaix
United States438 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 22 2010 04:07 Gnaix wrote: how many unupgraded zerglings does it take to kill an fully upgraded ultra in bw? More than 800. I don't think anyone's really ever tried. I mean, in that youtube video of 1 fully upgraded ultra v. 750+ 0/0 upgraded zerglings the ultralisk won by quite a large margin. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
Energy Tension Great tension with Scanner Sweep although admitedly Calldown Supply is probably lacking. Temporal Decision Making (When do I cast this?) Very well done. There are many times when players will hold off on Callingdown MULEs incase they need Scanner Sweep in the near future. Spacial Decision Making (Where do I cast this?) Incredible due to the cast anywhere capabilities of the Orbital Command. This decision making is enhanced by mineral heterogeneity, for example some mineral patches will return 270 minerals during a MULEs life and some will return 240 depending on how far they are from the CC. Mineral heterogeneity also arises from which mineral patches have been MULE mined more than others. IT pays to spread your MULEs across different mineral patches to avoid depleting one mineral patch and therefore increases SCV saturation (which decreases intake rates longterm). Further example of heterogeneity comes from gold vs normal minerals or from island expansions vs regular expansions. Players have to wiegh risk vs benefit in all of these scenarios. Furthermore MULEs can be used to repair. Comboed with cast anywhere this makes the MULE a Scanner Sweep for repairing. Innovative uses include saving burning CCs and even field repairs of an attacking force. All of which requires good spacial casting decisions made by the player. Now I ask you, where are these decisions for Zerg? In short, ![[image loading]](http://www.sc2armory.com/img/zerg/units/queen.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n292/sarahwentz/equal.gif) ![[image loading]](http://www.sc2armory.com/img/protoss/buildings/dark_pylon.jpg) | ||
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brocoli
Brazil264 Posts
I'm still craving to see queens spawning lines of flying insects that would fly in the edge of a circle around the queen, dealing DPS to everything that collided with them and blocking sight, until they died out. Such a cool unit, why not make it a little bit more useful in battle? I'd love that adrenal glands would also upgrade the ling AI in a way that lings could jump over each other constantly when attacking, rmaking those huge blobs of lings more viable since damaged lings would fall behind fresh new ones. Also, why does the corruptor spit stuff stuff to attack? It would be much more badass if it was a melee unit that could grab other air units (and either drag them closer or be dragged closer to them). Besides, corruption would be more viable if the corruptor was faster.... Why doesn't the MUTAlisk, the unit that looks like a flying larva, ever mutate? Why can't the Ultralisk do something interesting? Like, I don't know, eat stuff alive instantly, cause earthquakes, carry lings and banelings on its back, run faster in a straight line trampling over most things, break forcefields, deal damage directly to hp against toss buildings, CURL INTO A BALL AND ROLL OVER STUFF, I Don't know, Anything!!!!! Why does Overlord drop cost 200/200 when each Nydus worm costs only 100/100? | ||
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josemb40
Peru611 Posts
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
Couldn't agree more with most of the points. However I think Banelings are somewhat of a designing fail in TvZ because it destroys a whole techtree, mainly the poor marines who really lost any kind of purpose in most situations. I don't want to say that Z was strong against T but it's not good when tactical variability is so small. Those things such as BW muta micro that you could improve almost infinitely because it's always playable a bit more perfectly miss for any race imo. Sure, possibly that's because the game is young and it takes time to find something like that. But I always had the feeling that those old low tech games such as Broodwar or CS 1.6 have those kind of glitches such as muta stacking or russian duck rather than new 3D games. Or look at Quake movement that evolved from a bug. These new fance super graphic games always try to make everything so smooth what takes one so much controlling options actually from a certain level of playstyle on. To the point of decision making: Blizzard always said we wan't these interesting decisions but they totally failed. Strange. Gotta agree that Scan/Mule is a good point where they were successful, but let's take a look at some skills. Guardian Shield: No interesting decision Force Field: Too spamable to be an interesting decision, it just adds a very little micro aspect to a-clicking. Storm, Fungal Growth and EMP: Armies are so so so stacked. The decision of placement became obsolete or at least very very small because you just can't make a really bad storm or EMP. Plus, Storm is extremely spamable often. EMP is more interesting in early game where you actually need good hits because you don't have more than one or two Ghosts, however that's kinda easy. Becomes more interesting in late game when ghosts hunt for a good EMP on templars. Thor 250mm cannons: Abit more interesting because it will "stun" the thor as well, however it's rarely used since there are few targets you would want to use it on. Blink: Not really a decision imo. Zealot Charge: Autocast Neural Parasite: Much more of a technical thing that requires positioning and a response from the opponent. However one of the more interesting skills. Burrow: Kinda underused I think, I like it Actually I barely can find those interesting decisions blizzard wanted players to make. It's so much rock-paper-scissor going on that only is responding like a computer could to what you have scouted. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 22 2010 04:19 Archerofaiur wrote: Id like to point out just how superior MULEs are in terms of decision making to Spawn Larva. Similar features can be demonstrated with Chronoboost. Energy Tension Great tension with Scanner Sweep although admitedly Calldown Supply is probably lacking. Temporal Decision Making (When do I cast this?) Very well done. There are many times when players will hold off on Callingdown MULEs incase they need Scanner Sweep in the near future. Spacial Decision Making (Where do I cast this?) Incredible due to the cast anywhere capabilities of the Orbital Command. This decision making is enhanced by mineral heterogeneity, for example some mineral patches will return 270 minerals during a MULEs life and some will return 240 depending on how far they are from the CC. Mineral heterogeneity also arises from which mineral patches have been MULE mined more than others. IT pays to spread your MULEs across different mineral patches to avoid depleting one mineral patch and therefore increases SCV saturation (which decreases intake rates longterm). Further example of heterogeneity comes from gold vs normal minerals or from island expansions vs regular expansions. Players have to wiegh risk vs benefit in all of these scenarios. Furthermore MULEs can be used to repair. Comboed with cast anywhere this makes the MULE a Scanner Sweep for repairing. Innovative uses include saving burning CCs and even field repairs of an attacking force. All of which requires good spacial casting decisions made by the player. Now I ask you, where are these decisions for Zerg? In short, I'm not sure I agree. Granted, spawn larva and creep tumors are pretty much a repetitive action. However, I think the Queen will get a lot more energy management and varied use if people could find a way to incoporate transfusion into their builds. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On April 22 2010 04:29 Ryuu314 wrote: I'm not sure I agree. Granted, spawn larva and creep tumors are pretty much a repetitive action. However, I think the Queen will get a lot more energy management and varied use if people could find a way to incoporate transfusion into their builds. The issue isnt Transfusion. The issue is Transfusion's energy tension with Spawn Larva. Its like how the Obelisk was flawed because if you needed more energy/shields you would just build more obelisks instead of choosing energy/shields over proton charge. | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14908 Posts
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Vei
United States2845 Posts
On April 21 2010 12:40 DaEm0niCuS wrote: Zerg is stale because they are saving units for the next 2 "expansions". this blizzard is known to save fixes for expos | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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Polygamy
Austria1114 Posts
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levelup
United States8 Posts
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MarioMD
United States22 Posts
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yomi
United States773 Posts
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MeruFM
United States167 Posts
I do agree that zerglings should be stronger though. They even sound weaker now that there's no characteristic THUN-THUN-THUN they make when attacking buildings/armored units. Though that just means making either hydralisk or roach weaker. I'm guessing if anything, it'll be hydralisk because blizzard seems keen on keeping the roach situated at where it is now. | ||
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