I think somehting that needs mentioned is that in broodwar these "overpowered" spells takes a lot of practice to master, not only for the one casting spells but for the player defending as well
ie: dark swarm / consume / defiler micro / keeping defiler alive with zvt and with the t it is irridate defiler / keeping vessel alive / marine medic micro. And example for zvp is storming / storm dodging and flanks and templar sniping. These are definately some of the most adrenaline producing moments in BW.

I think one of the reason storm was nerfed is because it is almost impossible to attack a protoss that has HT/storm as zerg because the backbone of the zerg army is so slow you cant storm dodge anymore and added to that storm is easily spammable.

I guess what i am trying to get at is having overpowered spells in broodwar is a lot different than in sc2 because smartcasting makes an overpowered spell that much more retardedly powerful and its just easy. I personally feel that smartcasting is the reason spells are having to be dumbed down for SC2. I am not trying to get into a 'smartcasting" or SC2 vs. BW debate i am simply stating one of the reasons i think spells are getting nerfed.

AncienTs

Japan227 Posts

April 21 2010 03:31 GMT

#206

On April 21 2010 12:23 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
I think somehting that needs mentioned is that in broodwar these "overpowered" spells takes a lot of practice to master, not only for the one casting spells but for the player defending as well
ie: dark swarm / consume / defiler micro / keeping defiler alive with zvt and with the t it is irridate defiler / keeping vessel alive / marine medic micro. And example for zvp is storming / storm dodging and flanks and templar sniping. These are definately some of the most adrenaline producing moments in BW.

I think one of the reason storm was nerfed is because it is almost impossible to attack a protoss that has HT/storm as zerg because the backbone of the zerg army is so slow you cant storm dodge anymore and added to that storm is easily spammable.

I guess what i am trying to get at is having overpowered spells in broodwar is a lot different than in sc2 because smartcasting makes an overpowered spell that much more retardedly powerful and its just easy. I personally feel that smartcasting is the reason spells are having to be dumbed down for SC2. I am not trying to get into a 'smartcasting" or SC2 vs. BW debate i am simply stating one of the reasons i think spells are getting nerfed.

yeah the game controls in sc2 make the so-called overpowered abilities a lot easier to use, even in unseasoned hands

DigitalD[562]

United States80 Posts

April 21 2010 03:37 GMT

#207

I feel the real balance of BW came from the maps. As soon as people get a hold of the the new map editor, the current balance will change drastically. Balanced or not at release the new maps will do what Blizzard may not be able to.

Goko

United States8 Posts

April 21 2010 03:55 GMT

#208

On April 20 2010 23:23 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I mentioned that something in SC2 was too good or overpowered, he stated that in BW everything was too good, and that is why the game was so great.

Krytha

Canada140 Posts

April 21 2010 04:15 GMT

#209

Interesting article. I'm just worried about the maps. Like, every single map is elevated with a choke ramp resting on a natural, and things are being balanced around that. Is every future map going to be the exact same? Would force field make people cry about being locked in their bases if their only access point wasn't their ramp?

obesechicken13

United States10467 Posts

April 21 2010 04:23 GMT

#210

Watching the current nerf-trend, I am certain that an equivalent of dark swarm and burrowed lurker would not have had the slightest chance of making it out of the SC2 beta, and that this fear of the overpowered could eventually end up hurting the game.

Poll: Does Starcraft 2 Need Something Like lurker swarm to be balanced &fun?

No (12)

57%

Yes (9)

43%

Other, explained in post (0)

0%

21 total votes

Your vote: Does Starcraft 2 Need Something Like lurker swarm to be balanced &fun?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Other, explained in post

Half

United States2554 Posts

April 21 2010 04:29 GMT

#211

Well, you have to look at what units were overpowered. In BW, you had higher tech units that were overpowered, in the sense that they had very hard counters to a specific lower tech unit, but were not strong by themselves. They were backloaded, to increase teching and to encourage the emergence of dramatic, game changing plays by a player (PLAAAGGUGUGUEUUEUEE and prostorms and reaver drops)

The OP units in SC2 are frontloaded (Marauder, Roach, to some extent, immortal)

Its fine, even desierable if a vulnerable, micro heavy, and lategame unit is overpowered in a certain way. By overpowered, you mean "Has the ability to dynamically alter the game". Issues arise when a lower level unit becomes OP.

NonY

8748 Posts

April 21 2010 04:33 GMT

#212

I posted something along the lines of the ideas in this article a while ago...

In response to a Sentry complaint:

Basically you've just said, in an ideal situation, how super effective Sentries can be. But really effective moves ought to be in the game unless you want SC2 to be a snoozefest. Yeah, there will be, and ought to be, times when one unit enables something crazy good, even against a pro opponent.

Great article!

Angra

United States2652 Posts

April 21 2010 05:09 GMT

#213

I completely agree and have been trying to point this out in various posts as well. To add onto why things like these are what made BW what it was, not only does it make the game more dynamic, but things like lurkers, dark swarm, reavers, spider mines, storm, etc. are THE types of units that created a defender's advantage for a player (as well as high ground obviously). A well placed reaver could hold off TONS of hydras and lings trying to bust into an expansion. One lurker and one defiler could hold off a huge marine/medic force trying to attack into a choke. It's units like these that made not only fast expanding and fast teching a lot more easy to do, but it made games a lot more strategic and not end after one single battle. In SC2 currently, after you lose the first big engagement, you generally lose the game right there because you just have less stuff than your opponent and can't possibly defend any longer because he's going to remain ahead in food count for the rest of the game then. There are hardly any units in the game that allow you to hold off and stay alive with a smaller army and work yourself back into the game. You just need more shit that your opponent to defend, and that's it. It makes it a lot more stale, and makes it SO much more simple in terms of how games end up. There's no more back and forth battles, and DEFINITELY makes comebacks rare. If you win the first battle, you win the game 90% of the time because units like these aren't in the game.

On a side note, the thing that balanced out a lot of these "powerful" units/abilities like lurkers, reavers, dark swarm, mines, etc. was the fact that they had to be incredibly stationary to do massive work. It emphasized map control and holding key pieces of terrain even more because of this.

KermitTheFro

United States25 Posts

April 21 2010 05:13 GMT

#214

I like what this article is saying, but I feel like the weakness of buildings needs to be factored in. You would never see a nexus sniped in BW by a handfull of units, but in my experience this happens all the time due to mutas/reapers/immortals in SC2. If individual units are going to be so powerful, this needs to be in reasonable proportion to the strength of buildings.

Fruit_Salad

United States8 Posts

April 21 2010 05:18 GMT

#215

the forcefield with 400 hp might be a good idea, but i think that they should really take away smartcasting. it's not as exciting to see because you know it's a lot easier to smartcast

PhiliBiRD

United States2643 Posts

April 21 2010 05:24 GMT

#216

Well put, definitely something I think most of us (including myself) can easily forget.

GoDannY

Germany442 Posts

April 21 2010 06:26 GMT

#217

I have a question: Are these thoughts also handed to Blizzard, since you are totally right ?

Vei

United States2845 Posts

April 21 2010 07:01 GMT

#218

I disliked this article and some of the suggestions were really bad. Giving forcefields HP would be a HUGE buff. 400 HP meatshields for 50 energy? rly? So ranged units in the back autoattack it over moving forward to attack actual units?

I feel like the OP plays protoss, however irrelevant, I like seeing if my instincts are correct.

Also, I wouldn't say underground movement was a defining characteristic of roaches. It's in fact a very timing-inefficient, gimmicky upgrade for the most part. I used it to win a ton of games in the first weeks of beta, and I agree that it getting nerfed was fairly pointless because it's countered by any form of detection, but ... the defining characteristic(s) of the roach were it's imbalanced regen when burrowed, and it's debatably imbalanced 2 armor/ability to tank everything. As a zerg player, I'm inclined to support the burrow/armor nerfs but not the movespeed one -- I felt like that should have been buffed if anything.

Glemdening

Bulgaria70 Posts

April 21 2010 07:52 GMT

#219

Great article by Drone. But i partly agree with Angra's opinion that SC2 has less defensive abilities/buildings/capabilities of units. I say partly because if your at the point that you cant survive after a big battle in the middle or late stages of the game then either your opponent has a better macro than you or more expands/unit producing buildings, or your army composition is very inadequate to his composition of units. That said I still would like more defensive types of units/abilities/structures (maybe because im more of a defensive player i dont know). But as i can remember it took (I think) 2 years for SC 1 and a ton of patches and expansion patches to become the BW we know and love today. So SC2 will have new units to balance even more the game someday (I hope).

flogakid

9 Posts

April 21 2010 08:19 GMT

#220

Awesome read. I agree that having units that can, in certain circumstances, turn a game around completely add greatly to the excitement level of the game.