• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:20
CEST 21:20
KST 04:20
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202540Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up5LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments3[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced55
StarCraft 2
General
Clem Interview: "PvT is a bit insane right now" Serral wins EWC 2025 Would you prefer the game to be balanced around top-tier pro level or average pro level? Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up How to leave Master league - bug fix?
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
How do you go up to people? How do the new Battle.net ranks translate? Nobody gona talk about this year crazy qualifiers? Help, I can't log into staredit.net BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2 Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 1
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread 9/11 Anniversary Possible Al Qaeda Attack on 9/11
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 567 users

[SC2B] Beta 101

Forum Index > News
93 CommentsPost a Reply
Normal

[SC2B] Beta 101

Text byriptide
February 19th, 2010 03:41 GMT
[image loading]

It's barely been a day since the beta went live and yet Team Liquid has been hard at working looking for great content for you to devour. While our beta page is up and running and livestreams are going strong, we're certain that this post will put a lot of these things into perspective. Our first instalment of Staracraft 2 Coverage comes courtesy of none other than Hot_Bid and Insane, a pair who have been tearing up the 2v2 ladder so far! Let's hear what they have to say about everything Beta.

Noob School


With Professor Hot_Bid and Doctor Insane

[image loading]

School is in session, boys and girls.

Hot_Bid's Introduction to SC2

This is just an update after the first night of the SC2 Beta. I won't be going very in depth in strategy, mainly because I don't understand this game deeply yet. First, a little bit about myself. I'm a C at best on ICCup, and I am by no means an expert at SC1. At Blizzcon, I won a ridiculous number of games doing a 1-Hatch Queen-Hydra rush which I felt was quite strong. Blizzard has since nerfed the Hydralisk.

Battle.net Basics
[image loading]

Get used to this screen..

My computer specs: C2D 3.0 GHZ, 4GB RAM, Radeon HD5770 1G video card. I have every visual setting at maximum, and it's perfectly smooth early to mid game. Once you get into late game with gigantic maxed armies (this hasn't happened yet), I anticipate there will be choppiness or lag. There are no chat channels on Bnet, but you can chat with your friends (search and add them). The "find a game" auto match making is great, even for 2v2. After playing 10 "placement" games, you are placed into a division and ranked by Elo. The games seem to get progressively harder. As of right now, I can't see a way to view divisions other than my own.

The Competition
The first eight hours under my belt and I'm in a murky haze of SC2. Total, I've played 29 games and gone 26-3 but the vast majority of the wins were against very new players. So in reality, I've only played three or four "real" 1v1s, and me and Insane have only played six or so "real" teams. I've only used Zerg, and I've only made very basic units. Each game I tweak the builds a little bit more. I feel its much easier to understand 2v2 than 1v1, but perhaps that's just because I have someone to discuss games with. I am simply rolling players by macroing better than them or abusing terrain, not by doing anything strategic build or micro wise.

My 1v1s
My first ten 1v1s were streamed, but in case you missed them, it was me doing the same 1-hatch Queen Hydra rush. Except since then, Blizzard has greatly nerfed the hydra, making them 100/50 and lair tech. Regardless, it didn't stop me from going 9-1 just hydra rushing, but this was because my opponents were bad. It's certainly not an unbeatable strategy. The one loss I had was to a fellow TL-er who reaper rushed me, and hilariously I completely forgot to get lair so I was sitting there waiting forever to make my den. I won against a few TL-ers who even knew I was hydra rushing, but honestly it didn't feel very strong at all. I had a really nice game on the Paranoid Android map clone where I fought mass marines and marauders with hydras, losing every early battle but barely holding on and coming out on top later. Currently I'm in Platinum Division in 1v1, with a bunch of other players who are 9-1, 8-2, etc. There's one guy who is 27-3, he's #1 so far. I don't feel like I know how to 1v1 very well yet at all.

My Team Games
Insane and I decided to play 2v2, and we went 17-2 and are currently ranked #1 in the Platinum Division 1 (1166 Elo). We play Zerg (me) and Protoss (him). One of our losses was to a 9-1 team who we split a series 1-1 with, and our other loss was when Insane accidentally chose Terran instead of Protoss. Two-on-two is really, really fun. The match making system removes what was the most annoying aspect of SC1 Bnet, so you just click and wait and then get into a game.

We've gotten a good sense of early game unit counters and have largely been beating teams based on superior macro and army movement. Some games we go for early aggression (especially when there's a Zerg on the other team), and some games we play for later game map control (vs defensive P/T combos). One of the maps is called "Twilight Fortress" and both sets of allies spawn next to each other and share several bases. Every time we get that map, Insane and I basically play for maxout and expansion denial. All the other 2v2 maps are relatively straightforward ramp location bases. I haven't seen a 6 or 8 player map yet, probably because 3v3 and 4v4 modes aren't available at the moment.

That's it for now, I'll hopefully write another update this weekend.


Insane's Insights

Starcraft 2 is a macro game.
No really, it is. Even though people have been worrying that all the MBS, automine, etc. would turn it into a newbie-fest where macro is too easy, there still is a lot of macro to be done in the game. If you get more money and more units than your opponent you will (usually) win. Thus, the early game is about maximizing your economy while minimizing your opponent's.

It took years for SC1 to get to the point where people were FE-ing and doing heavily economic builds, in part because it was not based off a previous RTS (in the sense that SC2 is heavily similar to SC1), and because there had not been a professional RTS scene. SC2 is SC1, but updated and with cool new features (and some annoyances.. hello what happened to F2-F4??).

I've been playing Terran in 1v1 and Protoss in 2v2. They each have a macro mechanic which doesn't have to be used in a macro sense, but should be. Today I'll be talking about the Terran one!

Terran Special Ability
Terran can upgrade their CC for 150 minerals after they have a Barracks. This makes it start generating energy, and gives them the ability to cast three abilities:
  1. MULE
  2. Scanner Sweep
  3. Supply Boost

That's also roughly in order of priority. Let's start with the worst:

Supply Boost. What does it do?
Well, it gives you +8 supply to one of your Supply Depots (permanently, although probably if the Depot gets destroyed so too does the extra supply). Let me make this clear: it is a free supply depot. That's 100 minerals. That's not very good...

Next up: Scanner Sweep. Well this one can really save you in a crunch, like if your opponent has Dark Templars out. Ultimately this ability is pretty good actually, same as in SC1. The reason it's "bad" is simply because of what it has to compete with. When examined from a strictly isolated point of view, your average college team's Basketball player is actually pretty good.

Well, the Scanner Sweep is that college player compared to the Kobe Bryant of the MULE. The MULE is free minerals, basically. It's a super SCV, and you need to be careful to protect it (just like your SCVs! Although actually with the MULE mechanism you can fight with some SCVs to defend your base and it doesn't really hurt you too much). Every single time you have 50 energy, you should be calling down a MULE. Your entire early game play should be focused on getting the MULE going. That means that you should not do something like 13 CC, because it will delay your MULE (you need a Barracks to upgrade your CC, remember...).

Optimizing the MULE
Since each CC can be calling down MULEs, you'll quickly find that you are getting a ton of Minerals (especially since Marines are pretty weak, and you really need gas to get units that are not simply countered). The other races have this issue where they need to pull off a reasonable number of workers to get gas early on, which slows down their mineral intake (they can both compensate by making more workers, but they do not get free workers the way Terran does).

Thus, you can get more gas early on without negatively impacting your minerals the way the other races have to. This is especially important because unlike SC1, you really really feel low on gas off only one refinery

As a general build order, I've found the following has been working well for me:

  • 9 Depot
  • 11 Rax
  • 13 Refinery
  • 15 Depot
  • Upgrade CC
  • Cast MULE and at same time get 2nd Refinery

You can make another Rax or a Factory according to what you've been going. Contrary to SC1, I've found that double Rax opening is actually good against Protoss/Terran, and so I've been doing that.

I won't go into detail about the army compositions or followups because this is about the economy, not about the game as a whole. I will say, however, that I think doing a hidden expansion pretty earlyish is very worthwhile. If you get the CC up, you should upgrade it ASAP. Assuming it gets upgraded (it gets 50 energy, enough to cast a MULE, instantly), then it already has practically paid for itself. Note that you can call down a MULE anywhere on the map, so even if the CC is far away, you can call it down in the safety of your own base without issue.

Well that's all for now!

And there you have it, folks, the first in a long line of beta posts that will keep you informed and entertained in the months to come. Stay tuned over the weekend, because exciting things are set to happen. Will Nony get to play David Kim? Will Hot_Bid and Insane maintain their ladder position? Find out in what's sure to be an exciting few days for Starcraft 2!


This post was made by the Team Liquid Starcraft 2 Coverage Team. For more of TL's coverage, please visit the Team Liquid Starcraft 2 Beta Page.
Facebook Twitter Reddit
AdministratorSKT T1 | Masters of the Universe
Nal_rAwr
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2611 Posts
February 19 2010 03:42 GMT
#2
lol cool coverage
Nony is Bonjwa
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9756 Posts
February 19 2010 03:48 GMT
#3
interesting, 2v2's in sc1 were really vague to me, maybe sc2 can change that?
boomer hands
shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
February 19 2010 03:49 GMT
#4
Nice hands on look and commentary on the new macro mechanics. Really appreciate the write up, and though I don't have my beta key yet, this will help me understand the game a bit more once I jump in.

Also congrats to Hot_Bid and Insane in owning up the SC2 2v2 ladder.
Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
gamecrazy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States421 Posts
February 19 2010 03:49 GMT
#5
It's great to see that there's awesome macro potential in this game unlike *cough* *cough*... but F2-F4 are missing?! I always used those to macro....
Deleted User 39582
Profile Joined August 2008
317 Posts
February 19 2010 03:52 GMT
#6
HUSKY SC2 BONJWA
jtype
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
England2167 Posts
February 19 2010 03:53 GMT
#7
Thanks a lot for the info. I look forward to more updates like these. (:
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21243 Posts
February 19 2010 03:54 GMT
#8
Watching HB's stream was fun ^_^
TranslatorBaa!
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8101 Posts
February 19 2010 03:54 GMT
#9
rofl nony vs david kim

the real TSL final
Free Palestine
koloskye
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16 Posts
February 19 2010 03:55 GMT
#10
Great writeup!
There's really no such thing as too many High Templar.
magh
Profile Joined August 2008
Sweden95 Posts
February 19 2010 03:55 GMT
#11
Wow, thank you very much for this! TL's the best.

And gl hf
And the front door is open.. AGAIN!!
KiLL_ORdeR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States1518 Posts
February 19 2010 03:57 GMT
#12
What's the replay feature like, if it has even been implemented in the Beta.

I just finished watching DAy[9]'s show where he briefly touched on some of the replay features, but i'm more curious on whether or not it is possible to get other people's replays, and is so, how easily.
In order to move forward, we must rid ourselves of that which holds us back. Check out my stream and give me tips! twitch.tv/intotheskyy
PangO
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Chile1870 Posts
February 19 2010 04:01 GMT
#13
Guess will be needing a new PC
In Economics, the majority is always wrong. aka: MattRz
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
February 19 2010 04:06 GMT
#14
hehe nice coverage. keep us updated!
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
TheNessman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4158 Posts
February 19 2010 04:08 GMT
#15
its started and it wont stop. i look forward to these perfectly sized updates almost daily. THANKS TL!
~~! youtube.com/xmungam1 !~~
ComradeDover
Profile Joined November 2009
Bulgaria758 Posts
February 19 2010 04:10 GMT
#16
Good read. Can't wait for the release, since I didn't get a key and I don't know what my chances of my opt-in being taken are.
Bring back 2v2s!
JimSocks
Profile Joined February 2009
United States968 Posts
February 19 2010 04:12 GMT
#17
what resolution where you playing at?
grobo
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Japan6199 Posts
February 19 2010 04:13 GMT
#18
This was a very well written write-up, just the kind of information i love, thanks!
We make signature, then defense it.
thopol
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Japan4560 Posts
February 19 2010 04:15 GMT
#19
Awesome coverage! Really looking forward to all of the articles that we have been promised.
hubfub
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Australia352 Posts
February 19 2010 04:16 GMT
#20
umm sorry to ask the obvious.. but what exactly does the mule do
SoleSteeler
Profile Joined April 2003
Canada5427 Posts
February 19 2010 04:21 GMT
#21
On February 19 2010 13:16 hubfub wrote:
umm sorry to ask the obvious.. but what exactly does the mule do


It mines minerals for a timed period (like 45 seconds or something)

It can mine the same patch as an SCV (so saturation doesn't hurt it) and it mines 30 minerals per trip (as opposed to 5)

It's really handy.
IntoTheWow
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
is awesome32274 Posts
February 19 2010 04:22 GMT
#22
t_t this only reminds of how miserable i am cause i cant play sc2 : [
Moderator<:3-/-<
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 04:24:26
February 19 2010 04:23 GMT
#23
All this SC2 streaming is amazing. From the very start, I haven't gotten off my computer ever. A big applause goes towards Psyonic Reaver. I stayed up really late last night watching his stream, then I woke up early to watch again and he was still on. I'm looking forward to see more of hotbid and nony (I understand that nony probably needs to practice sc1).
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
February 19 2010 04:27 GMT
#24
On February 19 2010 13:22 IntoTheWow wrote:
t_t this only reminds of how miserable i am cause i cant play sc2 : [

Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
Husky
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3362 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 04:32:24
February 19 2010 04:31 GMT
#25
Wow.... The one chance I get to be in the headlines on TL and I wasnt even on my own account!

I was Holkin for my first round on SC2. One of our only two losses was to Hotbid.

Though, we had more games won and still a lower ranking

Man this game is amazing.
Commentaries: youtube.com/HuskyStarcraft
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
February 19 2010 04:35 GMT
#26
On February 19 2010 13:31 HuskyTheHusky wrote:
Wow.... The one chance I get to be in the headlines on TL and I wasnt even on my own account!

I was Holkin for my first round on SC2. One of our only two losses was to Hotbid.

Though, we had more games won and still a lower ranking

Man this game is amazing.


Ye ty for streaming. If u decide to skip work to sc again, I will be sure to donate a couple bucks.
Mastermind
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada7096 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 04:37:42
February 19 2010 04:37 GMT
#27
Nice writeup. I look forward to more of these.
infinity21 *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada6683 Posts
February 19 2010 04:44 GMT
#28
On February 19 2010 13:22 IntoTheWow wrote:
t_t this only reminds of how miserable i am cause i cant play sc2 : [

Official Entusman #21
Jyvblamo
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada13788 Posts
February 19 2010 04:54 GMT
#29
How many minerals does the Mule return during its lifespan, on average?
skippy2591
Profile Joined December 2009
United States46 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 05:12:01
February 19 2010 05:11 GMT
#30
On February 19 2010 12:48 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:
interesting, 2v2's in sc1 were really vague to me, maybe sc2 can change that?


Agreed, 2v2's in sc1 were about making enough combined troops to rush and destroy one player, and force the other to gg instantly. Starcraft 2 BETTER change that! I don't wanna b shellin out 40+ dollars for strictly ffa RTS! >P
PoWeR OvErWhElMiNg!
VorcePA
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States1102 Posts
February 19 2010 05:14 GMT
#31
On February 19 2010 13:23 Chairman Ray wrote:
All this SC2 streaming is amazing. From the very start, I haven't gotten off my computer ever. A big applause goes towards Psyonic Reaver. I stayed up really late last night watching his stream, then I woke up early to watch again and he was still on. I'm looking forward to see more of hotbid and nony (I understand that nony probably needs to practice sc1).


I've been watching Psyonic Reaver's stream, and the guy is hilarious.

HOW ARE BANELINGS FAIR!!!!!
Shitposting
ccou
Profile Joined December 2008
United States681 Posts
February 19 2010 05:17 GMT
#32
On February 19 2010 13:54 Jyvblamo wrote:
How many minerals does the Mule return during its lifespan, on average?


Yeah, I wonder how much better it really is compared to 100 min+wasted mining time for building a depot. I'd bet Mule is still better, but by how much?
Wake up Mr. B!
Crazazyasian1337
Profile Joined October 2009
United States362 Posts
February 19 2010 05:34 GMT
#33
is david kim ranked as number one at the moment?
;)))))))))
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
February 19 2010 05:42 GMT
#34
I think Artosis is #1 atm, idk where David Kim stands if he's ranked
ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
February 19 2010 05:44 GMT
#35
Nobody has said yet, is SC2 DX11 or DX10?
U Gotta Skate.
mmp
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2130 Posts
February 19 2010 05:46 GMT
#36
On February 19 2010 14:42 Chairman Ray wrote:
I think Artosis is #1 atm, idk where David Kim stands if he's ranked


There are several divisions. More than one person appears to be #1. (Unless Artosis overtook Louder??) So confused! ><
I (λ (foo) (and (<3 foo) ( T_T foo) (RAGE foo) )) Starcraft
Islandsnake
Profile Joined April 2009
United States679 Posts
February 19 2010 06:04 GMT
#37
hahah good write up!!

Was that game on paranoid android clone the one you played with me O.0?


Im really enjoying beta so far!
Bang!
Un Gato
Profile Joined July 2009
United States123 Posts
February 19 2010 06:11 GMT
#38
Blizzard needs to fix the Mule. If it is so good as to preclude other strategies entirely it is not a well implemented mechanic.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
n.DieJokes
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3443 Posts
February 19 2010 06:17 GMT
#39
On February 19 2010 14:11 skippy2591 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2010 12:48 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:
interesting, 2v2's in sc1 were really vague to me, maybe sc2 can change that?


Agreed, 2v2's in sc1 were about making enough combined troops to rush and destroy one player, and force the other to gg instantly. Starcraft 2 BETTER change that! I don't wanna b shellin out 40+ dollars for strictly ffa RTS! >P

I don't see how they could possibly change that. That simplistically is the entire dynamic of 2v2...
MyLove + Your Love= Supa Love
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
February 19 2010 06:24 GMT
#40
On February 19 2010 13:54 Jyvblamo wrote:
How many minerals does the Mule return during its lifespan, on average?

Yes good question, how much is worth it¿, since the lifespan is fixed it means the amount of minerals is fixed too. How about mass ccing inside your base just to call for mules/scvs in the same mineral line¿
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
JohannesH
Profile Joined September 2009
Finland1364 Posts
February 19 2010 06:31 GMT
#41
On February 19 2010 15:17 n.DieJokes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2010 14:11 skippy2591 wrote:
On February 19 2010 12:48 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:
interesting, 2v2's in sc1 were really vague to me, maybe sc2 can change that?


Agreed, 2v2's in sc1 were about making enough combined troops to rush and destroy one player, and force the other to gg instantly. Starcraft 2 BETTER change that! I don't wanna b shellin out 40+ dollars for strictly ffa RTS! >P

I don't see how they could possibly change that. That simplistically is the entire dynamic of 2v2...

Not necessarily. Depends totally on the games mechanics and maps too. Theres alot of RTS games where you cant just aim for killing 1 opponent, at least consistently every game.
If you have to ask, you don't know.
Titusmaster6
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5937 Posts
February 19 2010 06:41 GMT
#42
Saw Hot_bid play those 1v1s. Loved how he lied to some of those players rofl.
Shorts down shorts up, BOOM, just like that.
shizi
Profile Joined February 2008
United States210 Posts
February 19 2010 06:55 GMT
#43
wait.. why are there no chat channels? what??
Marine50
Profile Joined September 2007
Australia1764 Posts
February 19 2010 07:27 GMT
#44
if only sc1 had that matching making system
IRIS FIGHTING!!!
Kinky
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States4126 Posts
February 19 2010 08:21 GMT
#45
On February 19 2010 13:22 IntoTheWow wrote:
t_t this only reminds of how miserable i am cause i cant play sc2 : [

Me and thousands of others feel your pain T_T
SonRK
Profile Joined July 2004
United States126 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 08:33:47
February 19 2010 08:26 GMT
#46
Hotbid and his partner have been putting the hurt on me + teammate, haha
Kyuki
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1867 Posts
February 19 2010 08:56 GMT
#47
Getting crazy chills reading this =) Thanks alot!

<3

Mada Mada Dane
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24680 Posts
February 19 2010 09:12 GMT
#48
Thanks Insane I think I know why my terran got outmacro'd one game by a zerg: I haven't been taking advantage of mules... just scanners :p
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 09:16:15
February 19 2010 09:13 GMT
#49
In terms of game design, this MULE thing (and larvae injection etc.) is totally crappy.

Why?

It forces the ambitious player to regularly execute a boring, purely mechanic task, regardless of game situation, in order to assure optimum income.
This is the stuff robots are good at - no thinking, no adaptation, no creativity, no game sense needed.

I am sure someone somewhere is already programming a tool to automate this.
Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
pheus
Profile Joined February 2010
Australia161 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 09:20:51
February 19 2010 09:20 GMT
#50
On February 19 2010 18:13 Metaspace wrote:
In terms of game design, this MULE thing (and larvae injection etc.) is totally crappy.

Why?

It forces the ambitious player to regularly execute a boring, purely mechanic task, regardless of game situation, in order to assure optimum income.
This is the stuff robots are good at - no thinking, no adaptation, no creativity, no game sense needed.


it's like you never played sc1...
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
February 19 2010 09:24 GMT
#51
Well, I play SC1 since 1998 :-)
Perhaps you care to explain
Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
Inschato
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Canada1349 Posts
February 19 2010 09:25 GMT
#52
The MULE is not always a no brainer though, you have to save some energy for scans or it could bite you in the ass. In addition, I don't see an instant 8 supply as being a useless thing if you accidentally get supply blocked or your opponent takes out some vulnerable supply depots and supply blocks you and you need more forces quickly.
3.
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 09:31:35
February 19 2010 09:30 GMT
#53
Well, admitted, Inschato, but the good player does not get supply blocked accidentally, and when the mule is so powerful in terms of income, everyone will streamline their play to not need scans.

(BTW even if you did get supply blocked and are not in immideate need of units, the mule's additional money would probably mean it'd be better to use it to make more production facilities and catch up the moment the supply cap is gone)
Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
Nazarene
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Denmark996 Posts
February 19 2010 10:08 GMT
#54
I'm really getting psyched for SC2 now. Too bad my computer sucks - will have to buy a new one when the real game is released !
Nytefish
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United Kingdom4282 Posts
February 19 2010 10:08 GMT
#55
On February 19 2010 18:24 Metaspace wrote:
Well, I play SC1 since 1998 :-)
Perhaps you care to explain


Constant worker production and sending them to mine isn't a boring mechanical task?
No I'm never serious.
Whakkah
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden113 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 10:52:01
February 19 2010 10:51 GMT
#56
Been playing Wc3 for a while, but kinda new to the SC scene... what's CC stand for? "9 Depot, 11 Rax" etc. Is this the supply? like at 11 supply use you build a rax?
peetah
Profile Joined August 2005
Sweden88 Posts
February 19 2010 10:54 GMT
#57
On February 19 2010 19:51 Whakkah wrote:
Been playing Wc3 for a while, but kinda new to the SC scene... what's CC stand for? "9 Depot, 11 Rax" etc. Is this the supply? like at 11 supply use you build a rax?


Command Center
Hot_Bid
Profile Blog Joined October 2003
Braavos36375 Posts
February 19 2010 11:09 GMT
#58
lol we got owned a few times today in 2v2

not unexpected, as everyone keeps getting better and insane and i are hardly progamers :p
@Hot_Bid on Twitter - ESPORTS life since 2010 - http://i.imgur.com/U2psw.png
quirinus
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Croatia2489 Posts
February 19 2010 12:34 GMT
#59
I love the protoss macro speed boost spell on hatchery for faster queens, or on barracks for faster marines. Takes the teamplay to another level.

I was watching some stream (I think psyonic) when they found out you can do that, epic moment. xD
All candles lit within him, and there was purity. | First auto-promoted BW LP editor.
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
February 19 2010 12:49 GMT
#60
On February 19 2010 19:08 Nytefish wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2010 18:24 Metaspace wrote:
Well, I play SC1 since 1998 :-)
Perhaps you care to explain


Constant worker production and sending them to mine isn't a boring mechanical task?

I get your point.

This aspect is similar, although not as bad IMO - except in the midgame, there is not always constant worker production ("skipping probes") - and of course, there is also Zerg ("larvae management" is the word).

But anyway I am not saying SCBW is perfect - but that mechanisms in terms of game design as the above are disappointing.
Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
February 19 2010 12:51 GMT
#61
On February 19 2010 19:51 Whakkah wrote:
Been playing Wc3 for a while, but kinda new to the SC scene... what's CC stand for? "9 Depot, 11 Rax" etc. Is this the supply? like at 11 supply use you build a rax?


CC = Command center.
The lists given are build order lists, the numbers the supply count at which you issue the building command mentionned.

I.e., Depot at 9 supply, continue mkaing workers, followed by Barracks (=rax) at 11 supply etc.
Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
February 19 2010 12:54 GMT
#62
On February 19 2010 21:34 quirinus wrote:
I love the protoss macro speed boost spell on hatchery for faster queens, or on barracks for faster marines. Takes the teamplay to another level.

I was watching some stream (I think psyonic) when they found out you can do that, epic moment. xD

A pity so few people play "team melee" in SCBW. Arbiter cloaking Z army is fun
Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
February 19 2010 13:54 GMT
#63
The mule is really good, but Zatics build or any variation of it is the best opening vs Protoss, because you can put so much pressure. If he is greedy you can add the orbital command and call down mules while pressuring.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
FortuneSyn
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
1826 Posts
February 19 2010 14:25 GMT
#64
How much does the mule give you in extra minerals vs non-mule? estimate would be cool.
FakeKisser
Profile Joined September 2008
United States159 Posts
February 19 2010 14:52 GMT
#65
Great stuff. Thanks for the updates. I really look forward to reading more!
"Every generation needs a revolution" - Thomas Jefferson
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5281 Posts
February 19 2010 15:28 GMT
#66
wait wait wait, you can call the mule anywhere on the map or just in your own vision? if it's really anywhere then Scanner Sweep get's even more useless.
fishbowl
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1575 Posts
February 19 2010 15:34 GMT
#67
On February 19 2010 12:57 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:
What's the replay feature like, if it has even been implemented in the Beta.

I just finished watching DAy[9]'s show where he briefly touched on some of the replay features, but i'm more curious on whether or not it is possible to get other people's replays, and is so, how easily.

The replay feature has been beefed up.

First off, they're automatically saved by default in ".../Documents/Starcraft II Beta/Replays/Recent/". You then have an option from the Replay menu to save the replay under a different name, in which it'll move the replay to a separate folder. I'm not sure if or when SC2 will start clearing recent replays.

You can rewind/fast forward; you can display various tidbits of information we're used to seeing OGN/MBC often put on their screens: resources/unit composition/apm/etc.; you can view a replay strict from a single player's perspective, a.k.a., Player Cam/FPVOD.

If you're asking about being able to get other people's replays via some Battle.Net 2.0 feature, no, there is no way to do that yet. You can however review another player's match history and build order in said match down to supply/time.
djWHEAT
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States925 Posts
February 19 2010 17:13 GMT
#68
Thanks for the write-up guys. I'll be curious to hear a more experienced opinion on the SuperCharge ability of Protoss. Just playing with the ability it seems like it will be absolutely crucial to Protoss. I appeared when using on the Nexus it sped up gathering and probe building... but I'm not 100% sure yet.
OneMoreGame.tv // Weapon Of Choice // Kings Of Tin // Inside The Game // Live On Three
SD-Spirit
Profile Joined November 2009
Poland31 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 17:45:26
February 19 2010 17:20 GMT
#69
Here is some feedback for blizzard so far:

1) Something have to be done with this group clustering feature - when u mark for ex 30 units - they would cluster so tidly that one or two psi storm can easly kill them all in few seconds. - i know - mirco batter and split them out - but its just bad mechanics not bad micro.

2) i have pretty good machine - 6gb ram, quad processor, geforece 9800GT and my monitor is 17" LG Flatron whitch allows me for max res: 1440x900. I believe that that resolution is very common and may even be called avarage. But since this is my max in Vista - so it is my max in sc2. And frankly - this is just not enough - at 1440x900 units are far too big and range of map that is visible at my screen is far from that from sc1. FAAR

and some complements:

1) Great idea of changing the banalings mechanicks and animation. This acid splash concept is amazing. Looks great.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 17:42:10
February 19 2010 17:41 GMT
#70
On February 20 2010 02:20 SD-Spirit wrote:
Here is some feedback for blizzard so far:

1) Something have to be done with this group clustering feature - when u mark for ex 30 units - they would cluster so tidly that one or two psi storm can easly kill them all in few seconds. - i know - mirco batter and split them out - but its just bad mechanics not bad micro.

Completely disagree on this. It works the same as BW. It works how you expect it to work. If you tell your units to move to a spot, they all move to that spot as best they can. You should be at a disadvantage the less care you put into positioning. A person who is only doing two actions when taking care of his army (select all, move to one spot) ought to be utterly raped by a well-executed attack. Pros constantly move their armies around whenever there is a constant threat of attack. Or if their army is better off by getting in a good position and holding, then pros will meticulously set up that position and be ready at a moment's notice to make adjustments (like if a HT comes in view).
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
Grendor
Profile Joined September 2009
United States70 Posts
February 19 2010 17:44 GMT
#71
Hey thanks for the shout out on 2v2 - I'd love to see a thread with replays specifically dedicated to it. Frankly, it's just amazingly fun. I'm currently ranked like 7th in Platinum division 2 with my buddy, and I have to say that dual race stuff just adds a HUGE dimension to the whole game.

BTW, we are "Simon" and "Xnimativ"
Larvae injection ftw.
ShadowDrgn
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States2497 Posts
February 19 2010 18:08 GMT
#72
On February 19 2010 13:54 Jyvblamo wrote:
How many minerals does the Mule return during its lifespan, on average?


270. It almost gets 300 from a close mineral patch and barely makes 270 from a far patch.
Of course, you only live one life, and you make all your mistakes, and learn what not to do, and that’s the end of you.
Grendor
Profile Joined September 2009
United States70 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 18:21:47
February 19 2010 18:21 GMT
#73
I really wanted to make a new post about this, but I'll just put it here. Me and my buddy have been experimenting with 2v2 Toss/Zerg builds using Chrono Boost. If you have a Protoss ally then he can use it on your zerg building, like your hatchery, to speed up the production of your queen. Not only that, but if you spawn larva with your queen the larva spawn faster too. In other words your economy gets booming FAST.

Of course the protoss player loses out on their macro ability, but I forsee there being some really interesting tech rushs with this feature. Upgrading to Lair is ridiculously fast!
Larvae injection ftw.
SD-Spirit
Profile Joined November 2009
Poland31 Posts
February 19 2010 18:22 GMT
#74
Can somewone give me the link to psionic_reaver's stream ?
Darkn3ss
Profile Joined November 2009
United States717 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-19 18:43:56
February 19 2010 18:24 GMT
#75
I'm dying here without my invitation!!! Never thought my blizzcon beta card would turn out to be useless!

Waaaaaaaa!

But yeah, I've been telling people that there's a lot of macro in SC2 since blizzcon!!! You have to Spawn Larva/Calldown Mules/Chrono Boost every time it's available!!! While you still have to spend money, set rally points, etc!

On February 20 2010 03:22 SD-Spirit wrote:
Can somewone give me the link to psionic_reaver's stream ?


It'll be up under "Live user streams" on your teamliquid page when it's Live! This is the best I can help with. xP

Or were you trying to watch on-demand videos or whatever they might have?
Dont quote me boy, cuz I aint saying shhh...
SD-Spirit
Profile Joined November 2009
Poland31 Posts
February 19 2010 18:50 GMT
#76
unfortunately - at userstreams channel that refers to psionic_reaver is realated with icc_justinTV web site where is no watch on demand videos related with sc2.
So i thought that it is not the same stream that people are talking here about. i i still think so - so please someone post the link to his sc2 stream
Darkn3ss
Profile Joined November 2009
United States717 Posts
February 19 2010 19:19 GMT
#77
On February 20 2010 03:50 SD-Spirit wrote:
unfortunately - at userstreams channel that refers to psionic_reaver is realated with icc_justinTV web site where is no watch on demand videos related with sc2.
So i thought that it is not the same stream that people are talking here about. i i still think so - so please someone post the link to his sc2 stream


Oh, I'm pretty sure that is... I've been watching it all day yesterday! It's not up now tho (surprisingly!)

You can watch LOUDER meanwhile! He's better anyway imo. (Ihaven't seen him do zerg tho)

But would you check this out?!?!?!

Battle.net Beta Forum

Battle.net Beta Forum

Lolwut?

/facepalm
Dont quote me boy, cuz I aint saying shhh...
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
February 19 2010 21:14 GMT
#78
david kim's beaten me twice in my TVZ =(
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5281 Posts
February 19 2010 22:29 GMT
#79
The first guy who manages to B05pwn David Kim is going to be the first SC2 idol.
oo_xerox
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States852 Posts
February 19 2010 22:46 GMT
#80
take care brood war
sup sc2?
I could get a more coherent article by gluing a Sharpie to a dog's cook and letting it hump the page.
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
February 19 2010 23:02 GMT
#81
I got a kick out of this news post lol
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
February 19 2010 23:36 GMT
#82
On February 20 2010 03:08 ShadowDrgn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2010 13:54 Jyvblamo wrote:
How many minerals does the Mule return during its lifespan, on average?


270. It almost gets 300 from a close mineral patch and barely makes 270 from a far patch.

So is it playable to make barracks->mule->cc->mule buld¿ like twin hatcheries to abuse muling one mineral line and at the same time saturate the same min line with workers/mules¿
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
mista_sox
Profile Joined February 2010
Australia6 Posts
February 20 2010 00:34 GMT
#83
Does anyone know the interaction between mules and high yield minerals?
Darkn3ss
Profile Joined November 2009
United States717 Posts
February 20 2010 00:53 GMT
#84
On February 20 2010 07:29 niteReloaded wrote:
The first guy who manages to B05pwn David Kim is going to be the first SC2 idol.


That will be me!!! If I get into beta in the second wave!!!!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrr....
Dont quote me boy, cuz I aint saying shhh...
GW.Methos
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States249 Posts
February 20 2010 01:04 GMT
#85
2v2s?
might try that
i.pwn.n00bs
Mykill
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada3402 Posts
February 20 2010 01:19 GMT
#86
great coverage
cant wait to get it!
[~~The Impossible Leads To Invention~~] CJ Entusman #52 The problem with internet quotations is that they are hard to verify -Abraham Lincoln c.1863
Feefee
Profile Joined November 2009
Canada556 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-20 14:40:42
February 20 2010 14:39 GMT
#87
Completely disagree with people saying mule is overpowering the other abilities. I've only watched streams (although I watched WAY too many of them) but currently nobody has a clue about scouting, and I see people who aren't stupid enough to play utterly blindly win games by scanning and then countering their opponent (or finding their hidden expos). It's definitely a worthwhile tradeoff in my eyes. Scan is essential in sc1, and I don't see any indication of it being less so in sc2.

I do want to see someone call down a mule to repair though! At least on sc2armory it lists the mule as being able to repair like any scv would.. would be awesome to drop tanks and repair them if they took a beating =P. If the mule could build bunkers that'd be even sweeter^^ Come to think of it I wonder if the mule could emergency repair your wall without blocking other SCV's

One thing I don't like so far: Unless you're zerg it seems from what I've seen that expoing is extremely risky. I've almost never seen a player that goes for an expansion FIRST win the game. He usually just gets his expansion killed by more units while the OTHER guy takes an expansion. Might just be because nobody has good buildorders, but I don't get the feel of stuff like 12 nexus or forge fast expand where you can almost be completely safe in expanding early unless your opponent spots it right away and goes for a hard to pull off counter. It may be a macro game but it looks like a macro game off of 1 base so far =(
Feefee
Profile Joined November 2009
Canada556 Posts
February 20 2010 14:48 GMT
#88
Hmm come to think of it, the viability of a fast expand is really dependant on the time it takes to run units from one base to the other... do the maps feel smaller in SC2?
Epithet
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States840 Posts
February 21 2010 05:47 GMT
#89
Hook me up with a beta key insane ^^. J/k ;p
YellOw, Reach, & Nal_Ra Hwaiting!!
MidKnight
Profile Joined December 2008
Lithuania884 Posts
February 21 2010 14:38 GMT
#90
On February 19 2010 18:13 Metaspace wrote:
In terms of game design, this MULE thing (and larvae injection etc.) is totally crappy.

Why?

It forces the ambitious player to regularly execute a boring, purely mechanic task, regardless of game situation, in order to assure optimum income.
This is the stuff robots are good at - no thinking, no adaptation, no creativity, no game sense needed.

I am sure someone somewhere is already programming a tool to automate this.


How is that different from returning to your base, selecting idle workers and right clicking them on the mineral fields?

Blizzard couldn't intentionally ignore new available UI options (automine and MBS wasn't in SC purely because programming didn't allow it at the time) if they wanted to sell SC2 to casual gamers.


I do agree that Protoss Chrono mechanic is way better than mule or inject larva though
Metaspace
Profile Joined November 2006
Austria670 Posts
February 21 2010 18:18 GMT
#91
Midknight, read the thread. Because some things were tedious in SC1, this is no justification to repeat this in SC2.

Note, the worker thing was explicitly removed in SC2 by automine. So why introduce the mule/larvae/chronothingy cooldown mechanic instead?
Wir haben zuwenig Vespingas!
mikekh
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada3 Posts
February 21 2010 21:00 GMT
#92
--- Nuked ---
NET
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States703 Posts
February 21 2010 23:10 GMT
#93
Sweet, nice update, especially for those w/o the Beta
"Dark Templar are the saviors of the Protoss Race." -Artosis
Talic_Zealot
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
688 Posts
February 22 2010 10:06 GMT
#94
Great article! I am just getting more and more pumped to play this baller game. Liver for beta key! Keep the good TL coverage coming.
There are three types of people in the universe: those who can count, and those who cant.
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RotterdaM Event
16:00
Rotti's All Random #2
RotterdaM1250
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 1250
IndyStarCraft 189
UpATreeSC 105
MindelVK 97
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 3783
Shuttle 1108
ggaemo 423
Soulkey 381
Mini 300
Larva 293
BeSt 260
firebathero 239
Mong 138
TY 120
[ Show more ]
scan(afreeca) 35
soO 25
Jaeyun 19
IntoTheRainbow 12
Dota 2
qojqva4234
capcasts65
League of Legends
Reynor78
Counter-Strike
fl0m2369
Stewie2K1103
Foxcn207
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King61
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu551
Other Games
Grubby3951
Beastyqt678
KnowMe292
Trikslyr78
Pyrionflax50
ZombieGrub13
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 293
• davetesta25
• LUISG 20
• Reevou 7
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 2
• FirePhoenix2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21704
League of Legends
• Nemesis5427
• TFBlade458
Other Games
• imaqtpie1852
• WagamamaTV449
• Shiphtur433
Upcoming Events
OSC
4h 40m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
15h 40m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
19h 40m
PiGosaur Monday
1d 4h
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d 15h
Stormgate Nexus
1d 18h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 20h
The PondCast
2 days
WardiTV Summer Champion…
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
LiuLi Cup
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
Wardi Open
6 days
RotterdaM Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
HCC Europe
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.