EPTOn March 20 2009 10:13 JL13 wrote:
2) Do vigi's stay silent and pray medics don't protect the target?
2) Do vigi's stay silent and pray medics don't protect the target?
No, that's not all we potentially lose by Vigis staying silent.
TL Mafia 5 [Game Over] - Page 35
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
No, that's not all we potentially lose by Vigis staying silent. | ||
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
On March 20 2009 10:48 redtooth wrote: Am I the only one questioning why a medic would protect a suspected mafia or a potential vigilante target? Pyrr's plan right now makes no sense. It would make some sense if the vigilante role claimed to SoG in private. That would actually produce the same results without the vigilante risking death. If the hit doesn't go through then SoG can publicly call the fake vigi out and it's probably gg for that dude. Anyways, what's so important about getting the vigi exposed. I thought it'd be fine with him just keeping to the shadows and coming out in obvious situations. As long as medic doesn't act a fool and protect someone who is generally suspected of being mafia (even someone like Pikachu) then I'm sure vigis and medics won't collide. (1) You shouldn't assume that I can be trusted... in fact, I am currently one of the least trustworthy along with BC. Don't trust either of us with anyting at this point. (2) Vigis and Medics likely won't collide, but there are other things to gain (or not to lose) by Vigis calling their targets beforehand. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
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JL13
United States1384 Posts
2) Vigi's just stay silent about who they are hitting. They hit whoever they want. Highly suspected people will get lynched/rolechecked. I'd prefer a vigi killing a silent mafia based off good clue analysis behind-the-scenes (See mafia #2? I forgot what happened, but Plexa was mafia in that game). Medics protect whoever they want. | ||
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
On March 20 2009 10:52 semioldguy wrote: Like what. We prove that one guy is innocent. However, that man isn't even blue anymore because he used his power and now has all the use of a green towny. He's not useful to start a town circle around because he only has 1 life. I haven't thought too deep about it and may be missing a fragment of a grand plan but seriously doesn't look like there's much to gain with all this trouble.(2) Vigis and Medics likely won't collide, but there are other things to gain (or not to lose) by Vigis calling their targets beforehand. On March 20 2009 10:52 semioldguy wrote: Don't worry, I don't trust you. However, if vigi calls his target to you and somehow magically gets screwed (that or you don't act based on his call), you would be under suspicion as well. You wouldn't be that stupid now, would you? (1) You shouldn't assume that I can be trusted... in fact, I am currently one of the least trustworthy along with BC. Don't trust either of us with anyting at this point.  edit: Just wanted to point out that vigi's can only kill once. | ||
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JL13
United States1384 Posts
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
On March 20 2009 10:49 Qatol wrote: Let me be clear on this, since everyone seems more confused about medics protecting the target. That is not the reasoning here. The reason I want hits called out is to avoid DTs rolechecking the targets and to avoid vigis stacking hits. The second being by far the more pressing issue. Qatol is right. Town is just sidetracking itself in a silly debate again. Concentrate on the suspects. Mandalor was brought up to the plate earlier and in a few hours I'll reveal some even stronger findings. The key thing is that medics need to put themselves in the mafia's shoes and think how they would act, then protect based on that. You guys can literally win the game if you make a few key saves on important people who may or may not be in the spotlight. Pyrr, that is not going to be a rare opportunity. There are already 2 (at least) suspects who have so much evidence stacked against them and for some bizarre reason we can't use our double lynch this time. | ||
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
On March 20 2009 10:59 redtooth wrote: Like what. We prove that one guy is innocent. However, that man isn't even blue anymore because he used his power and now has all the use of a green towny. He's not useful to start a town circle around because he only has 1 life. I haven't thought too deep about it and may be missing a fragment of a grand plan but seriously doesn't look like there's much to gain with all this trouble. Like several things I and Qatol have mentioned already. (aka this has all been stated so if you've actually been reading the thread you can skip this post) We don't want Vigi kills (1) Overlapping with each other or (2) Overlapping with DT role-checks. Sure Vigis will get their hit back, but if they die that night then their hit was wasted when they might have used it somewhere else. If we assume all Vigis call their targets, then any time one calls a target and more innocents die than mafia have kill power we know he is innocent. If it was a Mafia trying to roleclaim the only way he could appear as a Vigilante was if another vigilante was stupid and decided to kill someone without saying anything. If the Vigi calls out and there wasnt and extra dead body, we lose nothing, but have effectively lessened the mafia killpower by one for the night. How is that bad? | ||
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semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
However, when the Vigi does decide to make his hit, there is nothing to lose by him calling it out. | ||
mikeymoo
Canada7170 Posts
I'll say though that I'm inclined to agree with Ver, for the most part. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On March 20 2009 10:42 semioldguy wrote: No... now we have two vigi kills that aren't going to be messed with. How can the Mafia mess with a Vigi hit? Do they have secret Medics or something? No what I was saying was in reference to the Vigi calling his hit out but not PMing Chuiu beforehand. You cleared that up. That still leaves the possiblity of hitting an innocent. Basically what I really want to know is - what is the point of a vigi calling out his hit? It sounds like this is all for the "what if the medic" prots him case - which I've already illustrated is a rare occurrence. The town does NOT need to know what the Vigis are doing yet. Leave them be. Also I am not speaking of this in terms of the plan that someone else came up with earlier. Drop the plan.... none of us are talking about that as a plan anymore. How is the Vigilante claiming a target that flips innocent any more of a loss that a Vigilante that doesn't claim and hits the same innocent target? If anything it helps that they called out beforehand because now we can have a little more direction in clue searching whereas before we are just blind and may misinterpret a clue. For example... the Vigi calls out his hit beforehand. If the number of innocents dead is Mafia killpower plus one, we will know he is a vigilante if we know that all Vigilantes are calling their targets. If it is still equal to Mafia kill power and that target died, then we haven't lost any knowledge, but we have made the mafia kill one less person to put suspicion on a now green player. How is either of these situations always a loss? Because it's revealing information that the mafia do NOT need to have so early. Yes let's ignore the fact that 1 shot Vigi that kills an innocent can't be confirmed because he has no other shot to confirm his innocence. Let's also forget that once he gets mixed up in the clues and has no codename attached he can be easily pinned as Mafia because ding - he can't be confirmed innocent! So back to the original point, why are we doing this? There are few blue roles this game and the mafia doesn't need to know many of them to win this game. Look at the entire game as a whole and I think you'd see why revealing Vigis is so blatantly a death trap: There are only 4 medics. Sheriff can't lock anyone up on Night 1. Vigis can't act until Night 2 and get 1 shot (this is according to what Qatol told me in PM even though it doesn't say so in Chuiu's OP. What does this all mean? All veteran players are sitting ducks. It's impossible to protect everyone night 1 and there's a very high chance a blue or two is going to die on the first night. Sheriff can't do anything about it and the Mafia don't have to worry about Vigis yet. Now do you see the problem? If we reveal Vigilantes the Mafia get the added bonus of not only sniping vets but cherry picking how to counteract the Vigilante. The second set of clues yet isn't up and if you throw Vigis in there it's just going to be a mess. There isn't going to be any direction in searching for clues because you don't even have enough clues yet to compare what you might get yet. It's pointless. They do NOT need to be known. Period. Secondly let's assume your second situation happened. If the KP is 6 and there are 7 deaths how does that prove the Vigi that claimed hit the target? It doesnt because you don't know if any other vigis acted either. Or what happens in the case where there are only 6 death and innocent dies that the Vigi called out but you didn't know that a medic stopped a mafia hit? You don't. You just said it yourself - you stopped 1 Mafia KP to put suspicion on a potential green, except you didn't stop the Mafia KP. If an innocent dies during the night the Mafia would gladly have it come from the Vigi because really, who cares how it happened? An innocent died. You've just given the Mafia the advantage of added confusion in the town now having to figure out if this guy is legit. Yes, the target would have to be highly suspected, which means that Medics likely won't be on those players anyway... however there is another role that may target those players with their abilities and then we would be wasting time and that player's ability. Which goes all the way back to what I said very early about anything involving confirming a Vigilante this way - you'd be involving too much time for too little gain. Why bother? What you're suggesting puts too much out there for little gain. Really, no one needs to know publicly who's going to be hit by a Vigilante before it happens. sure he can send his PM in before the Mafia, but it doesn't mean shit unless the guy flips MAFIA. If it's innocent - we go right back to square one. Putting too much out there? What are we putting out there exactly? Information for the town that the Mafia can't really do anything about unless it also helps us? How is the target claim any more of a loss than a Vigilante who doesn;t and teh target still flips over innocent? [/QUOTE] Read what I said above about looking at the game as a whole. the Mafia can do something about it. It's more than this order of operations thing - if the guy doesn't flip red it is OVER. The Mafia can play the card any number of ways and really just ask yourself if you like giving the Mafia options. I don't. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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JL13
United States1384 Posts
Here are a few problems with Vigi publicly claiming: First and foremost: Mafia kill the Vigi by potentially stacking hits. I think it'd be in the mafia's best interest to kill the Vigi. Sure, he's no longer a blue but that's 1 dead townie that could have been confirmed at some point. This turns into a mind game between mafia and medics: how many hits/saves should be spent to save a potential townie. If the hit was green a) mafia ignore the hit, GJ vigi, you helped kill stuff for us b) Very unlikely. Mafia Kill-steal. GJ vigi, we were gonna kill that person eventually anyway If the hit was red a) dead mafia. GJ vigi. Town trades 1 vigi for 1 mafia Here are some cool things to gain for Vigi publicly claiming: 1) DTs save rolechecks (which shouldn't be used on highly suspected people anyway since they are suspected already). 2) Medic's don't waste their protections. Here are problems with Vigi not publicly claiming: 1) DTs can potentially waste rolechecks (which shouldn't happen if DTs are good) 2) Medic's can potentially waste protections, thus wasting the vigi's hit. Then if medic protects a mafia from a vigi hit, lots of bad stuff happens. The medic protecting will die at least. Here are some cool things that happen: 1) Mafia is kept in the dark. Less info the better. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
On March 20 2009 10:09 dreamflower wrote: By the way, I feel I should point this out. It says in the roles post: I'm pretty sure all the medics know that they should be using their abilities tonight to protect valuable players. However, I'd like to remind detectives that they should use their clue-check ability. Specifically, they should be asking if specific sentences in the Day One posts are clues. At least this should help us figure out how clues are described in this game and give us a start for clue analysis. Since everyone is just going in circles on a topic which DOES NOT MATTER right now, I'm going to point out just about the only recent post about something which DOES matter. Since we have established that day 1 clues are hard to find and interpret but DTs HAVE to use a cluecheck, I would like to point out that this is a very good idea. | ||
Bockit
Sydney2287 Posts
On March 20 2009 10:49 Qatol wrote: Let me be clear on this, since everyone seems more confused about medics protecting the target. That is not the reasoning here. The reason I want hits called out is to avoid DTs rolechecking the targets and to avoid vigis stacking hits. The second being by far the more pressing issue. Addressing this, and everyone worried about mafia canceling out a vigi hit: Vigilante - You may, only once during the game, kill a player of your choice during the night. A clue will be left behind just like a mafia killing pointing to you. If your hit overlaps with mafia or another vigilante then I will cancel it and they will kill the person instead. [b]In both cases you will not know who caused your hit to be canceled and you will be able to use your hit anytime after that during the game.[b] It doesn't matter if you call your hit out, if your target is mafia, they can't kill their own guy, your hit will go through. If your target is innocent, then if mafia kill it first, your hit is refunded. If a vigi also targets the player, one of the two hits is refunded. I think all this discussion on the topic is pointless, there is so little to be gained from claiming your hits before hitting them player as a vigi and about as little to be gained by not claiming. I say we leave it to the vigis and focus on something a little more relevant, like, I don't know, clue/behaviour analysis. We have nearly 30 pages of posts to work with already here. | ||
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