TL Mafia 5 [Game Over] - Page 33

Pyrrhuloxia

United States6700 Posts

March 19 2009 22:01 GMT

#641

On March 20 2009 06:35 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
Why did the 4th mafia stay behind? Waiting for Incognito so he could kill him, one could possibly say that he was "lurking"...

mm not bad

0cz3c

United States564 Posts

March 19 2009 22:02 GMT

#642

Ace,

My reason for voting for semioldguy was that he has the slightest chances, in my opinion, of being mafia. Or so I thought at the time I voted for him. I still maintain that. He's new to the game, but that doesn't matter. Honestly, intelligence here is as important if not more important that experience. He didn't come into this game playing the AttackZerg charade, yelling out, "I'm a noobie, what's the purpose of this role?" Rather, he came in and began to play. He seemed to have made several insightful posts that seemed uncharacteristic of a mafia players. I discerned from them that he actually wanted to help the town. Furthermore, at the time of my voting, although he was making several keen posts, few people were voting him; this made my suspicions concerning him drop even more.

There are many practical reasons why I would choose him over any of the other candidates, many of which he himself mentioned. He has time, or least enough of it, to participate in this game. That's relatively important. He's able to see edits, which, in my opinion, if he proves to be anything but mafia, may prove to be an asset for the town. Therefore, of anyone I thought not to be mafia, he surpasses them in legitimacy for that ability.

I hate the phrase, "protect the experienced players," because it attempts to eliminate them as mafia suspects. The very same can be said of BloodyCobbler. That he received as many votes as he did for no apparent reason is startling to me. Their responses of "NOT ROL" are even more shocking. From my memory, there is no reason to keep him in this game as opposed to any other inactive. I don't know why you classify Scaramanga as a veteran player or potential target (no offense intended at all). I simply mean that it seems to assembled a list with some big names. And then added two more. Which makes it seem even less thought-out/suspicious.

Currently, I'm even more convinced that he's not mafia. RoL almost confirmed it. The rapid spurt of messages suggests one of two things: RoL realized that he got outfoxed by the town, or RoL is trying to cover up semioldguy, who then would happen to be mafia. That LTT responded to RoL's messages suggests to me that there was no perceived point to his messages (it wasn't strategy, that is to say).

Ver,
I still have not had the chance to read through your epic. I'll get to it soon, I promise. Ver, what I do think you may be forgetting is the fact that the townies (green roles) are relatively unaffacted/ don't care whether or not they die, either. Of course, the only instant at which I would be annoyed is if I were to be put on the lynching block. So, while Mandalor might not care about dying ostensibly because he's mafia, don't forget the obvious (just doesn't care because he's just a buffer for the special roles). I wouldn't expect a "veteran" player to overlook that.

Ace

United States16096 Posts

March 19 2009 22:35 GMT

#643

I put Scaramanga on that list not solely because of intelligence, but because if a DT wanted to find someone he'd be one of the people they'd look to. Scaramanga seems to always find out info about something, so he must be doing something right. The list isn't suspect at all - those ar high target players. By identifying them early we have a zone from which to work with.

The rest of your post of course, is way off. I think most greens DO care about dying because you know - they want the town to win. When Mandalor comes out to defend himself we'll know the truth.

0cz3c

United States564 Posts

March 19 2009 22:49 GMT

#644

Ace, if I were to be killed instead of a blue during the night, I would be thrilled.

There's a difference between a fear of dying and a fear of getting killed during the night. You're ignoring that, and the very fact that I said that.

It's pretty presumptuous to assume that most green would rather care about saving their own asses then being the mediums with which the town would use to win. Interesting.

Pyrrhuloxia

United States6700 Posts

March 19 2009 22:51 GMT

#645

@ Ace
I think some townies might not care - there are a lot of inactives every game (some of every role) so not everyone hovers over the game incessantly like I do. I comparison of Mandalor's behavior in this game against previous games could be helpful here.

@ 0cz3c
I voted BC because
1. He started running before roles so there's a 1/6.5 chance that he ends up mafia (he could start running before and then stop if he ends up blue/green or red or something [Caller?] based on his thinking so it's not that simple, but it helps a bit).
2. He gave an impressive experienced resume, experience helps a lot in this game - knowing the community is super-important for being successful at Mafia games.
3. I wanted to vote and I wanted to win and I couldn't vote for myself so voting for the persyn with the most support meant I wouldn't vote against myself ending up in the top 2.
4. BC was pretty cautious about plans and picking them apart without being too negative and in general seemed to have the same level of caution I have which was at least a bit reassuring.
5. The main competitor was semioldguy. I don't think the hearing clue is any real strike against him. I don't think he's a noob so the support isn't that surprising. Something about him made me uneasy although I can't remember what now maybe it was that I thought either BC or semioldguy had to be a mafia candidate and I wanted to rationalize my vote I'll think it over more in depth a little later I'm in class now.
6. I didn't understand Mr.BabyHands - I do a lot more now and might have voted for him in retrospect but it was too late - he should've had a campaign announcement that didn't look like a joke if he wanted my vote although I think that type of behaviour ultimately has its strategic value.

Pyrrhuloxia

United States6700 Posts

March 19 2009 22:52 GMT

#646

There are plenty of good players who may be green but still much more helpful to the town being alive than dead.

Ace

United States16096 Posts

March 19 2009 22:53 GMT

#647

Um...no. It's interesting that you can't even figure out what I'm trying to say even though I've said it like every single game I've played: Whether you are blue or green isn't as important as what you contribute to the game in the long run.

So any green thinking he should die to take a hit for a blue player is just being stupid. It's more about about saving their own asses. If they actively contribute and then die that's different than just getting randomly picked off and claiming they've saved a blue. You're arguments as usual are way off.

Ace

United States16096 Posts

March 19 2009 22:53 GMT

#648

last post: It's more than about saving their own asses.

Ver

United States2186 Posts

March 19 2009 22:56 GMT

#649

So I messed up with the game progression. I thought for some reason that town had the mayor autolynch then a voted lynch, then the mafia go. Oops! So just keep my essay post in the back of your minds and move on to how we proceed during the night.

Also, 0zc3c thanks for your reply. The thing was, and I can expand on this if you want, that Mandalor is kind of an exception to what you said (green townies who realize they were to be the buffer). His actions in the previous two games he played when he was a green townie heavily suggest that he was very scared of being killed early by the mafia, and wanted to stay silent to avoid it. There is no reason why he should suddenly want to change and play risky (especially so if he was a blue).

Also, 0zc3c, Ace's labeling of 'veteran players' doesn't mean that they are free from suspicion. On the contrary, he suggests that the town focus their clue analysis on them instead and use rolechecks elsewhere. The thing is veteran players usually suspect each other first, so it's more efficient to get a read on others with DT checks than it is to use them on vets. For example, I have spent much more of my focus on those players that Ace listed than most others.

The issue is, and I was unaware of until my accomplices informed me, that BC cannot jail anyone tonight to protect them from mafia hits and that we cannot have a double lynch ready for the first voted lynch because it takes . I'm not sure why it's like this but it's another annoying stumbling block we have to go through. Medics really have to do their job well tonight, and I heavily suggest everyone read over Ace's strategy again and the players contributing the most (qualitatively) to the town.

LucasWoJ

United States936 Posts

March 19 2009 23:01 GMT

#650

The difference in style between Ver and Ace is staggering.

Pyrrhuloxia

United States6700 Posts

March 19 2009 23:06 GMT

#651

So if someone gets protected by a medic, the medic and the person they protect know they are both good aligned right? I don't think vigis would use their one kill this early.

Ace

United States16096 Posts

March 19 2009 23:10 GMT

#652

On March 20 2009 08:06 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
So if someone gets protected by a medic, the medic and the person they protect know they are both good aligned right? I don't think vigis would use their one kill this early.

Yes. This is why it's so crucial medics get lucky on the first night with protections. Since Vigilantes can't act tonight, if a medic stops a hit on Night 1 they know for sure their target is innocent.

Pyrrhuloxia

United States6700 Posts

March 19 2009 23:20 GMT

#653

Are we still in agreement vigis should call their hits? I think we've shown they probably shouldn't say who they will attack because the mafia will try to steal their kill but maybe they should say they will hit someone just so we know whether medic protections can be trusted 100% for innocence that night or not.

Ace

United States16096 Posts

March 19 2009 23:21 GMT

#654

No. Vigis are better off hitting someone, and then retroactively proving they really did. That's a lot better than going in the opposite direction.

Pyrrhuloxia

United States6700 Posts

March 19 2009 23:21 GMT

#655

And of course they would have to send in their hit before saying they are a vigi or the mafia might kill them first (given Chuiu's order of operations rules) and the mafia will both try to steal their kill and maybe kill the vigi too if they say who they will hit.

Pyrrhuloxia

United States6700 Posts

March 19 2009 23:22 GMT

#656

Ok we can probably use day reports to tell when a vigi hit happened anyway.

semioldguy

United States7488 Posts

March 19 2009 23:22 GMT

#657

On March 20 2009 08:10 Ace wrote:

Show nested quote +

Which is why a Vigilante should call out their hits when they do get around to them, so the medics will always know that if they protected someone, that the person is innocent (assuming they don't go off to protect the person a vigilante called out). Since the Vigilantes only get one shot to kill, we aren't wasting their ability this way in two ways. If it accidentally got blocked that could suck and it makes sure Blues are doing things conflicting each other (Medics vs Vigis).

We still cannot by any means trust them unless they call out and hit a red, so it's not like mafia will be out to get them necessarily any more than they would have prior to being revealed.

Ace

United States16096 Posts

March 19 2009 23:26 GMT

#658

It's better off to risk Medics protting Vigi hits than the Vigis coming out, revealing themselves and watching their kills get messed up by the Medics, and then dying the next day anyway. It's just a bad idea. I'm sure you'd rather the Vigis waste their kills than not getting their kill off anyway or killing an innocent right?

semioldguy

United States7488 Posts

March 19 2009 23:26 GMT

#659

On March 20 2009 08:20 Pyrrhuloxia wrote:
Are we still in agreement vigis should call their hits? I think we've shown they probably shouldn't say who they will attack because the mafia will try to steal their kill but maybe they should say they will hit someone just so we know whether medic protections can be trusted 100% for innocence that night or not.

If the mafia steal the kill then we effectively lowered the mafia's kill power by one for the night for someone that was going to die anyway.

If the Vigilantes call out their hits during the day and send in their hit to Chuiu before announcing it in the thread (again, this is all during the daytime). The vigilante hit will go through first thing at night and due to order of operation the mafia can't kill the vigilante before the hit goes off, unless they were already planning to kill that person anyway and sent the list in to Chuiu during the day in which case it wouldn't have mattered if the Vigilante claimed or not.

All that plus the medics will always know 100% a protected victim will be an innocent.

What is the downside to a Vigi calling out their hit?

Ace

United States16096 Posts

March 19 2009 23:31 GMT

#660

It doesn't quite work that way. Remember, the entire point of a Vigi calling out a hit is to prove their innocence. Sure, you can assume you lower Mafia KP by 1 - but it's a chance I'm sure Mafia are willing to take so the Vigi can't do it. Hence, we go another day with an unconfirmed Vigilante.

Then it's a stretch to assume the Medics will protect the Vigilante AND the Mafia will hit him in the same night. The other problem also being is that what happens if the Vigi is a fake, but a real vigi targets him and he gets medic protected? x_x

Lastly, for all this to work the Vigi hit has to go through and it has to hit red. If it kills an innocent we are back to square one.

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