EPTSweet Summer Mafia - Page 18
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Trfel
7015 Posts
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Trfel
7015 Posts
If there is something I am misunderstanding, please point it out. It is very possible that I am missing something. You think AlphaZero is mafia for how he posts about sandroba but doesn't end up voting for him, right? Basing this off of post #3410. Why would AlphaZero, as mafia, share so many suspicions about his mafia partner sandroba and then not bus him when it becomes obvious sandroba is being lynched and sandroba gives up? (I mean, good mafia play is to bus him before it becomes hyper obvious, but at the very least he should do it at that point) It looks to me like your argument is that AlphaZero is mafia because he set himself up to bus sandroba but then just decided not to. I could buy this if there was any hope of keeping sandroba alive, but there clearly wasn't? Like, why does this make AlphaZero mafia when what you (Mocsta) did, defending sandroba and looking for alternative wagons, presumably comes from town? How is what AlphaZero did any scummier or more mafia motivated than what you did? Please understand that I'm not saying this means AlphaZero is town, by any means. Just that I don't think this is any reason for him to be mafia. Do you have any other reasons? Because this seems very weak at best. And at a glance, it's your only reason. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Maybe I am bad for thinking this way. I will keep thinking about it. But to me, it feels well within Mocsta's town range. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 13 2024 13:35 scott31337 wrote: Dude, what?I'm done with your waffling AZ Fucking for someone if you believe they are mafia Why are you so upset with your scumread for not voting? Even if he's town, what's wrong with him waiting until later to vote? Especially given that he's at work? And all that aside, he's clearly not waffling, and I don't think this is worth getting upset over? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Gut reads from Trfel! (note that order in each category is irrelevant) Town Koshi Vivax AlphaZero Town Lean Mocsta Null scott31337 Alakaslam raynpelikoneet Mafia Lean die_meatbaby I have no clue how I'm ever supposed to read Alakaslam this game. Need to figure out raynpelikoneet, scott31337, and die_meatbaby, next. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 13 2024 13:42 scott31337 wrote: Okay, from your perspective, AlphaZero is mafia and his not voting on a strong scumread is a sign that he is mafia.Stop being so wishy washy mafia If you were confident - you would have voted already Why are you mad about your strong scumread, AlphaZero, doing something that shows that he is mafia? Shouldn't this make you happy and excited? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
I just want to know why you are so angry at your scum read(s) for doing something that indicates that they are mafia? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
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Trfel
7015 Posts
From my perspective, I get to lynch mafia. You should be asking yourself. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 13 2024 14:18 scott31337 wrote: No? What part of putting him as Town makes you think I would vote for him?Trfel are you willing to vote AlphaZero? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 13 2024 14:21 scott31337 wrote: What does Oatsmaster being dead have to do with this?Explain why. Oats is dead. Explain who if you still believe DMB is mafia who is their partner I'm voting for you dude, and eventually I'll try to figure out if die_meatbaby is your partner, or someone else or what. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 13 2024 14:24 scott31337 wrote: Yes, you're correct, there is no reasoning for the AlphaZero/Trfel mafia conspiracy theory. Glad you realize this So you have not thought out any of the game. AZ/Trfel conspiracy theory come true Without any reasoning  | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
 And then ignore when I asked if you could explain it?Sorry, I probably shouldn't be going back and forth with scott31337 over this, but it's so much fun.... I even missed one!Why do you need me to explain why I am not going to vote for someone I think is town? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 13 2024 14:31 scott31337 wrote: Okay, one more time.Why are you going after me? If you are somehow town, why on earth would you be mad at AlphaZero for not voting? On June 13 2024 13:37 scott31337 wrote: So you're saying that AlphaZero doesn't actually think Mocsta is mafia because AlphaZero is not voting for Mocsta. And the key is that you are very angry with AlphaZero for this.Vote for Mocsta now if you truly believe they are mafia as you do. If you are town, it makes no sense for you to be angry at AlphaZero, your scumread, for doing something that indicates that he is mafia. If you are town, you would instead quote this and use it as evidence to the thread that AlphaZero is mafia. You have no reason to be angry at him for this, in fact you should be happy or thankful or excited or almost any other emotion because your scumread is feeding you more evidence that you can use to lynch them. I could even understand if you were angry at the thread for not recognizing the obvious mafia. But town should never be angry at their scumread for doing things that indicate that they are mafia. It just does not come from a town mindset. Plus you threatened to reduce your townread of me into a conspiracy theory read if I put you at null instead of town. That's simply not a town mindset. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 13 2024 14:46 scott31337 wrote: What part of "I think you are mafia and I am voting for you because I want to lynch you" do you not understand?Trfel who do you want to lynch today? Are you willing to lynch AlphaZero? Why are you not willing to lynch AlphaZero? I believe he is mafia. Trfel if you are town, vote somebody who you believe is mafia. Why do you ask if I am willing to lynch AlphaZero and then ask why I am not willing to lynch AlphaZero? Like...... are you just so freaking drunk that you can't put a thought together? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 13 2024 14:48 scott31337 wrote: "If you are town, it makes no sense for you to be angry at AlphaZero, your scumread, for doing something that indicates that he is mafia." I've never been angry at AZ - I just want him to understand where I'm coming from. This is a misrep AZ/Trfel On June 13 2024 13:35 scott31337 wrote: If you are too drunk to think properly and too drunk to play then maybe I can back off. I don't drink so I don't really know how it affects someone.I'm done with your waffling AZ Fucking for someone if you believe they are mafia But otherwise, you can't be serious? | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
I'll forget this ever happened and talk to you tomorrow. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 13 2024 14:55 AlphaZero wrote: That's possible but there are a lot of other things he could have done to try and get out of it as well.i suspect scott is playing up the drinking thing to wriggle out of that mess, he only mentions it after he fucks up. Either he decided that his best defense was to go through a contrived series of posts to make it look he can't think clearly.... or he simply can't think clearly. The former seems pretty scummy (not in a mafia alignment way, just in general). The latter seems much more reasonable. Like I hope this doesn't become a normal thing for people, whenever they get caught they just go "whoops I'm drunk," but for now I will unvote and reconsider. In the middle of a scott31337 filter dive, I'm not saying he's town, I'm just back to unsure because I don't know if it's reasonable to attribute this mess to anything besides alcohol. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 13 2024 14:53 Mocsta wrote: Yes, it's possible that AlphaZero is mafia and realized too late that he should bus sandroba and then decided it would be too suspicious to switch and just ended up not bussing him. I think AlphaZero is clearly a better player than this, but I can't entirely rule out the possibility.this was a good post to me,- much more thought provoking than i expected as i have written a response.. i've gone.. damn. thats stupid from me and very fair points from you. what can i say. anti-town award for me? Mostly correct. Paraphrased its about the byproduct of AlphaZero posts/votes create voting optionality, and applies whether voting a town or scum flip. Yes, town change reads and votes (I'm proof), and typically new information is the driver (or being stupid for me). Whereas, pursuing optionality, in particular without applying new information, is mafia mindset. The push-pull was about demonstrating through AlphaZeros quote history, the optionality kept open on Sandroba over 72 hours and 120+ posts that presented during that time; and bear in mind, this is for an F-Tier hard scum read so i attribute the optionality as opportunistic and therefore scummy. We could be viewing two sides of the same coin? For example, in poker, there is the mathematically optimal way to play a hand; yet, that doesn't gurantee you win the pot. Somewhere along the lines, other human factors come into play. Some players, like yourself & Rayn veer towards the analytical approach to the game; others like town!sandroba veer towards the human intuition side, and then occasionally you get muppets like me that create lots of noise. BTW, my argument is that AlphaZero used push-pull to save Sandroba and maintain distance.. I read all his pushes as soft and I personally view AlphaZero push-pull defense of Sandroba as preventing him from bussing if that was a desired outcome - i.e. to jump in the last 5 hours would be sus.. and perhaps only rayn can resolve this via discussions from mason log yep, after the fact, my play is anti-town. I reduce this to: 1. not trusting town, that they would come together and stick. like, what game locks in wagons 5 hrs before lynch. 2. being overly concerned about last minute majority flips i mean, if you examine the whats, perhaps there is an argument of similarity much like what you have poited. I know my why, i shared it. you can choose to believe it or not. It has become anti-town, and thats not the same as mafia up-side either. The elements I have identified consistently across 72hrs with AZ, for me, if i implemented that optionlaity opportunisticly, the why is mafia upsides each and every time. Even if you think "well Trfel, someone's gonna say that same argument you just said about why mafia would bus and how AlphaZero not joining the wagon doesn't make him mafia," you're not wrong, but this doesn't give him a reason to do this as mafia. AlphaZero not switching to sandroba didn't change the fact that sandroba was going to get lynched. In contrast, if AlphaZero switches to sandroba, he avoids all the knee-jerk "you didn't vote for mafia so you are mafia" scumreads. That's generally well worth it. Sure, AlphaZero could have realized he should bus too late, and maybe thought it would look too suspicious to switch votes late and decided to deal with the knee-jerk repercussions, but.... why? The point though is, AlphaZero as mafia doesn't gain anything by any of this. He didn't really attempt to defend his scumbuddy sandroba, and he didn't get any town credit for bussing. I don't think any of this is alignment indicative at all. If you want to scumread AlphaZero for being wishy-washy on flipped mafia sandroba, this makes more sense to me. I don't think it's super strong or anything, but I think it's at least a reasonable argument that you can make. I don't think that you can conclude anything from AlphaZero not ending up on sandroba, however, because AlphaZero and sandroba (and presumably also mafia #3) didn't try to defend sandroba. I'm not trying to bash you for being wrong, my point is, I think it's distinctly possible (in fact, I think it's extremely likely) that AlphaZero is simply town and was wrong day 2. I don't think the argument for scumreading AlphaZero due to not voting for sandroba holds any water at all. I don't think the argument for scumreading AlphaZero for going back and forth on sandroba is very strong, though it's at least got a little merit. With those things being unclear, I think AlphaZero's day 1 was a very strong indication that he is town. So that's how I am reading him. Sure, he did a bunch of stuff that's not alignment indicative, but that's not going to change my townread because it's not alignment indicative. | ||
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