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Hi, I'm the sub for Sentinel. I'm caught up, but just pushed 1400 posts through my brain at top speed so don't expect me to be 100% on the ball. I'm going off vibes, so please feel free to correct me.
I've played before, maybe 10 newbie games. I'm an IRL friend of DP. I've also played meatspace werewolf a fair amount. I haven't played forum mafia in close to a decade, and don't really plan on approaching the game the same way anyway.
From what I see, there seems to be some mutual respect between Rayne, DP, and Marv. Almost like they are playing for who controls the endgame and the rest of you are just the social environment that facilitates it. Out of the three, I have no idea why people are acting like Marv is obviously town. He plays like an empty vessel. I'm obviously not part of whatever meta you guys have, but IMO MZ's aggression towards Marv has been warranted.
I would have voted for Vivax over MZ, who I get a town read off.
So I guess my first question is why Marv is just getting a free walk here? What makes everyone so certain he's town when for the most part he's not exerted any influence? IMO both Rayn and DP have provided insight, and in my eyes are earning their status, but not Marv.
Regarding VE, they strike me as committed to a bit. I'm not sure why they had such insane confidence, but honestly, a lot of how you guys talk comes off as fake to me.
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I don't see that as exerting influence proactively in a townish way. He had someone attacking him relentlessly, and so he pushed back. That's not the same as actively hunting for mafia and in my eyes he gets no points for it. It's a struggle not to push back on people who attack you.
I'm open to being wrong, like I said, I read it all kinda fast and for a good portion it was difficult to keep track of who's who. So receipts for Marv being proactively town would be appreciated.
The only thing I really remember is when he attacked VE's list post around post 300, but Rayn had already done that and it was an obviously bad post.
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On May 25 2023 20:41 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2023 20:25 TankTopTiger wrote:
So I guess my first question is why Marv is just getting a free walk here? What makes everyone so certain he's town when for the most part he's not exerted any influence? He didn't get a free walk. We attacked marv and then welcomed him in the town circle after vetting him. It's ok if you missed that. You might have read discussions about a mebaby post saying marv looked town that scammed people in a previous game and now everybody is attacking him. Also. You say some people feel fake (because we force reads most likely), and then you don't like marv for "not exerting" any influence. That is a contradiction you should try to get rid of. marv is indeed a calm player, and is not yelling and swearing. But he did get his preferred target 5 votes. So he influenced at least that. Or was that somebody else his doing?
Can you give me a time frame for when this vetting occurred? Because IMO that early nonsense where people push and pull based on nothing but farts means zero so establishing someone's alignment forevermore during that primordial soup is not a strong foundation for a town.
RE: Contradiction
It's not a contradiction. Having genuine reads is not the opposite of passivity. He asks a lot of questions (good), but then doesn't seem to take them anywhere in service to anything but his survival.
I don't like fake reads, I think they muddy shit up. They're necessary to get the ball rolling, but once the ball is rolling I expect genuine reads not empty accusations. The ball is rolling and has been for a while, so IMO we don't need them.
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Can I get other people's input on when Marv was vetted? Do people have strong reasons why he's green?
Rayn, I remember seeing you post something of the like "you're bad if you don't think Marv is town". Can I get reasons for that?
I too think Koshi should read the thread as well also. I'm not going to take him seriously if he's taking wild swings at people without having read what transpired.
@Koshi
I think there was a misunderstanding on my end. You interpreted my feeling people acted "fake" as a response to people forcing reads. I took that to mean their reads were fake, but see how that might not be the case. I was not only talking about the forced reads, but they are a large part of it.
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On May 25 2023 21:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2023 20:25 TankTopTiger wrote:
Hi, I'm the sub for Sentinel. I'm caught up, but just pushed 1400 posts through my brain at top speed so don't expect me to be 100% on the ball. I'm going off vibes, so please feel free to correct me.
I've played before, maybe 10 newbie games. I'm an IRL friend of DP. I've also played meatspace werewolf a fair amount. I haven't played forum mafia in close to a decade, and don't really plan on approaching the game the same way anyway.
From what I see, there seems to be some mutual respect between Rayne, DP, and Marv. Almost like they are playing for who controls the endgame and the rest of you are just the social environment that facilitates it. Out of the three, I have no idea why people are acting like Marv is obviously town. He plays like an empty vessel. I'm obviously not part of whatever meta you guys have, but IMO MZ's aggression towards Marv has been warranted.
I would have voted for Vivax over MZ, who I get a town read off.
So I guess my first question is why Marv is just getting a free walk here? What makes everyone so certain he's town when for the most part he's not exerted any influence? IMO both Rayn and DP have provided insight, and in my eyes are earning their status, but not Marv.
Regarding VE, they strike me as committed to a bit. I'm not sure why they had such insane confidence, but honestly, a lot of how you guys talk comes off as fake to me. Not exerted any influence? My target would have been lynched if not for some crazy EOD shenanigans and the fact i was asleep. How Much more influence do you want?
I don't really remember your compelling case. Like I said I'm running off vibes. If I'm wrong, show me.
From my perspective, you're being respected as some sort of veteran who people give concessions to and who people sheep onto when they can't figure shit out for themselves. But I don't care for that. I want to see your actions that justify you being treated as town. Was there some great post you did that buried MZ, or did you just ride your incumbency?
So perhaps "influence" is the wrong word, what I'm after is the influencing actions. If you could highlight those for me I'd greatly appreciate it.
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On May 25 2023 21:19 Koshi wrote:
Like TTT comes in and calls marv an empty shell/imposter and at the same time mebaby calls marv so strong town that if he doesn't die he should be lynched.
Of course they don't talk to each other and tomorrow they will try to vote marv out.
That seems a tad hyperbolic to me. I thought asking questions was good?
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Marv your filter is like 400 posts long. I just read 1400. Can you just point me to it please I'm trying to catch up and I don't want to have to read everyone's entire filter everytime I ask a question.
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Nah this is BS. Absence of evidence and all that. I'm asking you to substantiate your town status. You say you made a case but can't point to it. Now I have to remember or reread every single post or can't question you. Bullshit.
Koshi says you were vetted but that's not what I remember. You say you made a case but that's not what I remember.
I'm not reading it all again. There's an easy way to clear this up.
I don't need it right now, we've got three days until next lynch. Do you have access to a computer in that time?
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TBH You could just summarise it and I'll trust the collective other 10 people to fact check you. This doesn't have to be hard. We could already be done.
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Okay so what I've got is that:
Rayn made a meta-claim about MZ's behaviour. (what was this claim?)
Marv slept on it and woke up agreeing with Rayn.
Marv then built on this, saying the case was too clean/obvious, and doesn't look like he was trying to discern Marv's alignment.
Everyone then sheeped Marv's compelling claim.
Is this a fair summary of why everyone thinks Marv is town?
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Koshi, can you not think of a single reason why I would ask Marv to defend himself instead of asking the first-time player?
To a newcomer, you people are acting in lockstep with no rhyme or reason. I don't understand, and I don't expect someone who is also new to the scene to understand. So I'm asking the people I most expect to be able to answer my questions. That would be the people who apparently have it all figured out.
Can you please jump off Marv's lap if you're not going to help me? Thanks.
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In retrospect, I should have got the sheep to spell out the case that they found so compelling. I'm not very good at this.
I find this weak. It feels vague to me. But I am aware that there is a lot of local knowledge I lack and can't verify. So I'm backing off for now (proving you don't deserve to be confirmed town isn't proving you mafia). I don't like how Koshi is tripping over himself defending you, it's weird.
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Re: Koshi
I don't expect it to be as fruitful. As I'm trying to catch up, I'm focusing on the actions of the people I deem to have influence or to have moved things.
So ATM that's: you, VE, MZ, DP, Rayne, Marv. Once I have a better understanding of you guys, then I can get a handle on the noisier, less agentic players.
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Okay you've mentioned that a lot Marv (the same arguments are used by confirmed town). That doesn't matter to me. As far as I'm concerned, everyone just sheeped that last vote so I don't really have any reason to think correlation between thoughts is some gold standard of proof.
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This is how I see it (because you asked):
Rayn made a meta-claim about MZ's behaviour [that I cannot verify and that I don't trust other people to verify. This is an incredibly large pool of information to cherry pick from, meaning Rayne can always pick the narrative that suits them.]
Marv slept on it and woke up agreeing with Rayn [but then seems to be getting a lot of credit for agreeing with Rayne]
Marv then built on this, saying the case was too clean/obvious, and doesn't look like he was trying to discern Marv's alignment [but a case being clean or obvious is good actually. Which to me makes this entire act of influence reducible to pointing out the inadequacy of the line of questioning against him, a maneuver indistinguishable from personal defense]
Everyone then sheeped Marv's compelling claim.
But I'm trying to leave it for now because it's not productive. I still don't really understand how you were vetted either, but that's something I intend on taking up with Koshi/Rayne once I've slept. I expect that if someone has a confirmed town read, they are able to point to why.
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That's not to say MZ not looking for alignment is not a good point (might be worth going through this later), but it's something that was simultaneously defensive. So to me, you were very passive and only exerted influence when threatened. I have high expectations for the contributions of DP, Reyn, Marv, and Koshi, so me not seeing any evidence of you having been proactive puts you grey at best for me.
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RE: DP
I just reread his filter. I think I consider him more reasonable a lot of the time which is not the same as insightful. Other than his strong town read on Marv, I see a lot of this game the same. So I came away with the impression he had demonstrated more insight than he had.
I didn't like DP's posts early on (first 400 posts or so). It came across as corporate placation speak to me. But as there was more to talk about I felt he was consistently providing reads I agreed with.
RE: Rayn
On May 24 2023 07:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:
People i don't want to lynch:
Koshi
Lightningstrike
marvellosity
Probably not Darthpunk either. From what i know DP is very aware of the state of the game when he is mafia, not afraid to engage in conversations with his scumbuddies, basically he tends to look very town especially early on. This game i feel like DP is more like.. clueless(?) at times, and i think it's more likely genuine "i don't know what's going on" rather than "i pretend i don't really know what's going on". If DP would be mafia he would probably be mafia with two peopel who haven't posted yet.
VE goes to the same category. I don't really agree with his conclusions, hell i don't even know why he writes what he writes but i don't really think VE as mafia would write what he writes.
Vivax looks active and i'd say more likely town too. I didn't hate his last post, although there is a creeping suspicion about him and meatbaby goin like "hey can i say this in thread" -- "yeah it's fine, noone will believe you anyways and it's great distancing anyways", but i don't really have any other reason to think Vivax is mafia atm, and that reasoning in itself is stupid.
Would lyncherino:
meatbaby -- what Koshi said
MZ is tricky. Last couple (three?) games i have been mafia and every time MZ goes to post something D1 i go like "man how the hell can anyone think anything like that (he has been town)?!?!?!" and then i go "man, how the hell can anyone think MZ is mafia?!?!?" and everyone wants to lynch him.. I don't get the same feeling at all here. Maybe it's because i am not mafia and i am looking at the game differently with not all the information. I can see MZ genuinely thinking marv is mafia but something just doesn't sit right there.
Slam is the least of these three. It's not really alignment indicative for him to "cling" on someone and answer to (all of) their posts, but nothing really makes me think he is town. Probably not mafia together with marv is my best conclusion atm.
Everyone who has not posted can also die for all i care. Or anyone who has posted and i had not in my list.
I liked Rayn's take on DP and on others. It feels like they have meta takes, but don't just regurgitate them and assume everyone shares them. I'm not privy to past games (or don't have the time to read them), so them sharing this insight is appreciated. In comparison, Koshi and Marv feel like they're trying to make me shut up if I don't agree with the thing they refuse to explain. Which is how to survive but not how to lead IMO.
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I don't currently have strong red reads, I need to read some filters. I'm stun-locked by why people are so happy to call each other town but not explain why. I hate it. I don't like Marv or Koshi's play rn, but realise that doesn't make them red.
My next direction is MZ and VE. In defending himself, Marv made claims regarding MZ's case on him (obvious, clean, incurious). I figure if I filter dive MZ I'll be able to simultaneously appraise them and reappraise Marv. VE's also reddish for me. At times I thought them green, with their tunneling, but it seems like everyone agrees that this is a bit VE would do if red. So when I find the time, I'm going to review their case on Vivax with a focus on whether their aggression was organic or artificial. Right now (and for a while), they've felt fake to me, even if I (would have) voted along with them.
But I don't have time for all that until tonight. I gotta go get rl shit in order.
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@the more experienced players
I know that the setup is semi-open, but presumably hosts tend towards balanced setups. What does a balanced setup with a doctor and a vigilante look like? e.g. two blue, one power red, two vanilla red, rest green?
Can we reasonably expect there to be more blue roles in the game?
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I don't want to talk about why, but that did help. Thanks.
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VE is there any time you feel you demonstrated you were curious regarding Vivax's alignment?
My read on you is that you wanted to park yourself on someone unthinkingly. You wanted marv, but marv isn't killable D1. You wanted lurkers, but Marv wouldn't let you. Then you went Vivax and ran it all the way to the end. You even had vivax as a mild green read initially, then swung for the bleachers at them.
I don't like your read on die_meatbaby as hard green. She's pure distilled chaos and you think you read her that confidently?
There are other concerns that have been spelled out by others that I agree with (responses to post 324, your initial list post). Saying there is one mafia between DP and Marv is weird and doesn't seem to map to any internally consistent observation I can think of. Trying to sheep the first time player is also silly.
@Marv are you known for having a stance on not lynching lurkers. Does VE have any right to be surprised by your stance? Is VE generally known for LOLing?
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@DP & VE
You mentioned the vig shot was bad for town, can you spell that out for me? I see it differently.
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And that's what you think VE thinks?
Why would VE and you (who were both tied to the train that saved MZ) want MZ to be mafia? Wouldn't that guarantee you guys are in more trouble than you currently are? The progress that would be made would be against you.
Am I missing something? Eli5 please.
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I think different people think about survival differently. I agree with your view, but surely if town is looking at lynching you next, as town, you're worried how far town is putting themselves further behind by focusing on you?
VE I'm leaning red. You I'm leaning green.
But I can never be sure with you. In werewolf I think I've got a chance of catching you out when I can see your face, you slow down a bit when you're lying. But in forum mafia you seem like you've got a system for doing things that you could perform as either alignment. You get time to think things through and straighten everything out. You talk a pretty big game about how good you and others are at this, so I don't really have faith in myself to discern your alignment.
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Hey checking in for the next twoish hours. Then I got a lunch I'm going to, then I'll be back. Gonna go catch up now.
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On May 26 2023 20:52 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2023 20:02 marvellosity wrote:
It could be, in the case DP is maf (this is entirely speculative) that they tested out what would happen if koshi got attacked and I stonewalled it and they made the decision then.
For TTT. This is exactly why marvellosity is town and how you can't see that from D1 is a bit beyond me. He's keeping town on track ALL times during D1, disagreeing/questioning the things he is not comfortable with and pointing out good points. This is what makes exceptional town player, not some big posts with "insight". Just look at Koshi and DP N1. That's not exceptional, hell that's not even good. They both are good town players, but the difference of keeping your head straight and looking for what's important in almost any situation makes the difference between good and exceptional. There is no way mafia marvellosity could do this, i mean like if everyone had their head straight as him, mafia would never ever win any games, you have to "make mistakes" in your thought process as mafia because you need your team to survive. It's very rare cases when you even could actually do that throughout the whole game, and marv's town play is so good it's basically impossible to imitate that as mafia. So there is that, i suggest you rethink your read on him if you are town, or mafia.
TBH I don't even understand what they're saying. What decision is marv saying DP made?
I obviously don't have the same filter as you do. Keeping your head straight isn't alignment indicative, in fact, since mafia are trying to be manipulative, I sort of expect them not to get down in the mud. It feels like you're conflating skill with alignment but my comprehension of your post is dogshit so maybe I'm wrong.
So you think Marv is so good as town, he's just confirmed town if he doesn't make mistakes? TBH that feels stupid to me because then he just wins all his town games and loses all his scum games. And you think it's crazy I don't know this specific thing about Marv (it's beyond you?).
I was already reconsidering my read on him and have said as much.
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Okay I'm caught up.
RE: Dodging
I'm sort of tired of people deciding what I should be doing or thinking about.
When I went after Marv, Koshi said I should be nailing down the newest player. This felt beyond stupid to me. Marv was avoiding providing evidence of his case (making me do it). Koshi avoided providing evidence that Marv was vetted (so I'd have to do it). And the whole time people have been telling me "no! you should be looking at MZ", the only person who seems willing to even consider the possibility that Marv shouldn't be default confirmed town.
While I don't like DP's description of me, there's certainly something to it. I don't think I've got this game figured out, and while I'm playing to win, I'm also playing to figure out how to win. I am beyond dismissive of strategies like "just sheep the good players, who are definitely town". I won't ever do that.
And despite all that, I was never parked on Marv as red. It just felt super wrong that everyone assumed he's town for what to me seemed like no reason. In particular, the way other people defended him (and at times he asked for people to defend him) just seems like he gets to control everything without ever putting his name on it.
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I would love to see the people on the MZ train explain why they were wrong.
I attacked Marv. I was told that's bad because Marv made the case on MZ and this was a good case actually. But apparently it wasn't a good case. So Marv wasn't a good town. Rayn you said Marv keeps town on track, but he "led" what would have been a mislynch.
I'm getting confused signals. You guys were wrong and now you're telling me off for not being wrong with you.
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@rayn
I read the whole thread with the mindset of vanilla town before receiving my role. So whatever my reads were (regardless of my alignment now), they were genuine.
My read on MZ was light green, and I thought the train on them was stupid backlash for questioning Marv. I thought Koshi was being super emotional and stupid about it (but I think his Vig shot was the right play from his position).
I also thought (at the time) that DP wouldn't take the risk of switching early as scum, because his general approach to things is to be non-commital and then commit hard later unless there's a good catalyst for him. But from what I'm reading from other players about his playstyle in this game is that is not how he plays in this.
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Also DP likes bussing, he's not the sort of player that would feel pressure to risk his own neck night one to save a relatively inactive mafia.
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ebwop
inactive => ineffective
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On May 26 2023 22:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2023 20:25 TankTopTiger wrote:
I would have voted for Vivax over MZ, who I get a town read off.
Yeah he said this. Unfortunately this should hold no relevance because the situation has changed drastically after Vivax flips town. Why does mafia!marv make "bad posts" about Meapak if there is no relevance on who gets lynched, hell he doesn't even need to push Meapak lynch. He still reads Koshi and rayn town in the same post. He indentifies us three (and DP) as town leaders, regardless of if that's true or not. Like with this information alone he SHOULD be considering Meapak's alignment again, before doing anything else. "Who i got a town read off" is not really anything, the read should be REALLY in depth considering three people who he thinks are town leaders voted for the guy, and one didn't (and was wrong).
This is I think a place I can make my perspective clearer.
I acknowledge that people respect you four, but that doesn't mean I respect your authority. I'm not here to fall in line, I don't see that as playing the game at all. So I can be aware of the influence you people have while being dismissive of accepting that influence myself. So basically, if you want to change my mind, it needs to be because of what you say, not who you are.
In my mind it's actually insane how much people sheep considering that alignment is RNGed at the start of the game.
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Yes let's move on. I haven't even really got to talk about anything else.
I'm gonna say a few things and they're not all necessarily compatible with each other, but that's my perception.
Regarding Koshi's vig shot, I think in his mind if MZ flipped red he'd basically solved the game because then he'd have confirmed that the doctor lynch was to save scum and could bring the hammer down on VE.
Regarding the NK on Koshi, I think Koshi was out of control and the mafia assumed that killing Koshi would make town take up his cause. I don't expect mafia to have predicted the vig shot, so they expected MZ to still be in play. So their vision for today was a continuation of yesterday, with MZ on the block vs. the fallout for the mislynch.
I think either VE or DP is scum, and I have a light green read on DP.
I kind of expect a diffuse approach from mafia, basically one on each wagon and one in the lurkers, or one on a wagon, an all-town wagon, and two lurkers.
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On May 27 2023 08:19 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2023 07:22 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 27 2023 02:54 VisceraEyes wrote:yo wtf how does rayn go from On May 25 2023 09:04 raynpelikoneet wrote:
VE is town though, bad imo, but town. No questions asked. to On May 27 2023 00:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:
idk i am almost done with VE and voting him no matter what..
it's just too bad at the moment, i need a break. like I don't even Are you really just salty that I cucked your townie MZ lynch? Fuck off guy. I told you IN THIS THREAD that I was doing it you don't get to be mad about it because you fucked off and let me. No, i am annoyed you call me "intentionally obtuse" a number of times when i am definitely not and making arguments you YOURSELF agree with, like: On May 25 2023 08:23 VisceraEyes wrote:
Especially with your god reads backed up by Koshi and the rest of the sheeple? Why would any mafia fucking stay tunneled on marv in that situation?
Like this is what I'm talking about rayn, it feels like you're being intentionally obtuse, I understand biases but this feels...targeted. With intent. With an agenda. like comeon you agree with my point it's a possibility when i was arguing i didnät think town meapak would un-tunnel marv. And then i am intentionally obtuse? On May 26 2023 23:44 VisceraEyes wrote:On May 26 2023 23:40 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 26 2023 23:37 marvellosity wrote:On May 26 2023 23:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Like i am even entertaining to lynch LS just because if he flips mafia then i don't have to think about DP anymore. I don't think he is bussing. I don’t agree, if they are both maf I can absolutely see him bussing. Why do you think otherwise? idk why he should do that? Killing Koshi kind of works here, but like... DP started the bus (if that's what it is) when there was no real lynch candidate (aside from mebaby). I don't think it's the correct play there as mafia, since there is no way to predict where the thread sentiment for town ends up on. Isn't there, rayn? Isn't there? I seem to recall someone being able to predict where thread sentiment was heading YESTERDAY, when someone led the lynch from MZ to the DOCTOR, and I don't even have extra info. You think that someone with extra info would be unable to not only better sense thread sentiment, but be in a position to manipulate it? Like...I've been pretty townie on DP but clearing him because he tried tried to lynch someone "when there is no lynch candidate" feels.....again, like you're being intentionally obtuse. It feels like I'm playing with rayn ON HIS FIRST EVER GAME. AWWWWWWW NEWBIE RAYN!!!! This is full bullcrap because you're comparing scenarios some hours into the game vs some hours into the lynch and making it look like in both situations people should have the same amount of information on who gets lynched. Can you at least see hw there could be some holes in your thinking? But yeah no, rayn is intentionally obtuse playing like newbie. And this: On May 25 2023 07:29 VisceraEyes wrote:On May 25 2023 07:26 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 25 2023 07:24 Vivax wrote:
I‘ma call it a nighty-o
1gu I hope delivers something decent in the future. I don‘t think he read anything at all tbh.
LS gets a downgrade for last appearance while rayn is being annoying on me, redeemed by being observant on him tho.
I‘m sorry if MZ is town.
I‘d also add (to reasons why I think he’s mafia) that his complaint about the egregious posting was warranted, at the same time it felt a bit like he was exaggerating his reaction. Maybe to gain a bunch of cheap cred with those insulted.
Should be an interesting angle to revisit at some point. Dont worry i wont be advocating a lynch on you in ANY case (while i think you could be mafia) here. You will live to see D2. You read it here folx, rayn is actively trying to protect mafia Vivax from the lynch. I think this is where rayn fucked up ladies and gentlemen. Until now his play could be classified as stubborn town, this post right here proves that he's actively trying to harm town, removing the stubborn town possibility entirely because townRayn would never ever not lynch Vivax if he thinks he's mafia if the lynch is viable in this situation. FUCKING GOTTEEEEEEEEMMMMM Actively harm town my ass, all you even had was your read based on Vivax interactions with mebaby, where your town read marv had already agreed with me your read is not necessarily true. And that immediately translates to rayn is mafia? And after that all, you have to come and call me all kind of things and try making it look i am somehow offending you? I came to this game to play a nice game of mafia, you're ruining it. Sadly i don't even know if you're doing it because you're mafia or just an ass right now... You're the one getting personal and calling people bad. I could be wrong about your intentions, because I'm fucking town and I don't know your alignment. But you're calling me bad which applies regardless of my alignment. Fuck you rayn. You're not going to gaslight me into thinking I'm doing anything wrong here, you're the one with a bad fucking attitude because I DARE question you. I'm playing the game. Maybe you don't like how I'm doing it, but I'm doing it. I'm not ruining shit. I never called you "all kinds of things" I said it was like I was playing with newbie rayn because it felt like you aren't considering simple shit that WE'VE TALKED ABOUT IN PREVIOUS GAMES/POSTGAMES. And I did that ONE time. I'm not being mean to you or being offensive or anything like that. Maybe my reads are offensive to you. Maybe you dislike my reasoning. You were right that the Vivax read was wrong. Was it bad? Maybe. Maybe not. With a sample size of 2 I guess we'll find out eventually. So you're either trying to gaslight me intentionally because you're fucking mafia, or you're actually so full of yourself as town that you literally think anyone who has a different opinion from you is bad at the game. I'm going to be honest, I think maybe you're just town and a fucking dick.
This brovado feels empty to me. Like VE is saying what he feels he should be saying, not what he thinks.
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My issue with Marv wasn't that I thought he was red, it's that people thought he was green for no reason. So in pursuing that line, it was more about investigating* a situation than a person (*I'm not claiming blue).
I'm currently light green on Marv, he seems to have picked up a bit day 2 and there is widespread agreement that this is his town meta. You're my top town read even if we're butting heads over dumb shit.
Can I ask what sort of player vivax was? Was he someone who took pride in the chaos he sewed?
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I have no idea why a town VE is fixating on trolls or expecting other people to fixate on trolls with him.
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I think if VE is green, then red DP knew he was green when he switched, and trusted VE to make a big enough mess to get lynched for it before DP. In that scenario, DP also expected MZ to be alive (and directed vig attention at lurkers), which means that after hammering the mislynch, DP would have two days of mess before the lynchmob came for him.
So to me, lynching VE also gives me a read on DP, who I know I will otherwise struggle with.
Add to that that VE did blind lead a mob on a townie, has generally felt fake for a long time, seems to want to put attention on lurkers/trolls - VE is my top lynch for today by a pretty decent margin.
##: vote VisceraEyes
I'm going to a lunch, I'll be back later before the lynch. I don't really see myself changing my mind on this, but hey surprises happen.
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If vivax was someone who prided themselves in being discordant, I can imagine them having put those ideas in MB's head, offering some support for the notion that MB is an overperforming red noobie. But if that's not the case, I find it difficult to imagine they would go all-out like this on their first game without anyone influencing their approach in that direction.
IIRC, at some point Vivax said they were "being more insane than even them" which sounds like what someone who otherwise plays a trolly style would say.
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Fixed, thanks. VE now in the lead.
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On May 27 2023 09:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So if i am right and rayn/marv/Slem/Chez/DMB/TTT are town and noone fucks up we win?
Not trying to attack, but that's the biggest if I've ever seen, and winning doesn't necessarily follow from your personal reads.
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On May 27 2023 09:34 die_meatbaby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2023 09:13 TankTopTiger wrote:
If vivax was someone who prided themselves in being discordant, I can imagine them having put those ideas in MB's head, offering some support for the notion that MB is an overperforming red noobie. But if that's not the case, I find it difficult to imagine they would go all-out like this on their first game without anyone influencing their approach in that direction.
IIRC, at some point Vivax said they were "being more insane than even them" which sounds like what someone who otherwise plays a trolly style would say. I am not talking to V in RL about the game. Against the rules. Till now we are not talking about it till now and till the game ends or I am lynched or dead. I am not being influenced from him. Fair play only.
I meant when he was describing the game etc. to you.
DP has talked to me about the game before, and this included some bragging about all the BS he's pulled off. If I was a different sort of person, I might be inspired to think that pulling the biggest BS would be a fun way to approach the game and cause a lot of chaos.
So I'm not saying he exerted influence over you during the game, just that he helped frame your understanding of what the game was like when he was selling you on the idea of it. But it doesn't matter, the question deadended.
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I don't think redDP hammers the vote D1 if redVE led it.
When MB talked about the host assigning roles, people told them it was RNG. But Marv said it would be unsportsmanlike to make MB red.
I work under the assumption that they use RNG, but then probably veto particularly unbalanced results. Is that a fair assessment?
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And if it is a fair assessment, is it then fair to say that among DP, Koshi, Marv, Rayn, there should be at least one mafia for balance reasons?
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On May 27 2023 09:03 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2023 09:00 marvellosity wrote:On May 27 2023 07:25 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 24 2023 07:28 die_meatbaby wrote:On May 24 2023 06:33 Koshi wrote:
Like you said marv is getting attacked because x people pressured him because theybdont want to lose against mafia!marv again. Who are those people and do you now read them town?
Sharing is caring and can help us read you better.
Sentinel // don´t know, too less writing from him since we started Alakasla // same as sentinel Chezinu // seems like town 4) Vivax // mafia 5) LightningStrike // pretty shure town 6) DarthPunk // not quiet shure yet 7) Onegu // also not shure 8) Koshi // def. town 10) raynpelikoneet // Mafia 11) Meapak_Ziphh // also i think town for right know 12) marvellosity // town (could chance depends on his next posts) 13) VisceraEyes // town But as you said you can lose the game perfectly with out me  I keep going back to this because i can't understand why (especially) a newbie makes this post with having LS as town when at this point LS has both of her scumreads as town. Do you want to revisit DMB today rayn? I sort of think with all the host stuff about not knowing how the setup works it’s borderline… um… “unbelievably unsportsmanlike” if DMB is not town
Sorry, what does this mean then? Unsportsmanlike RNG? I'm confused.
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Okay, thanks. That clears it right up.
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On May 27 2023 10:38 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2023 10:35 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 26 2023 11:11 DarthPunk wrote:So I am going to address the shit where Rayn thinks I am soft blaming him for the lynch on vivax, and I guess I sort of am, (although I also take responsibility for being wrong/bad or whatever makes you feel better) because from my perspective I was very open to being on either wagon at the time. On May 25 2023 08:29 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 08:24 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 25 2023 07:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 25 2023 06:13 Onegu wrote:On May 25 2023 06:08 marvellosity wrote:
Onegu, less blabla, more desperately trying to make yourself useful - I thank you Love you Marv but you should know that is not likely to happen. I got the message 30 minutes ago that this game started. Maybe this is helpful ##Vote: Marvellosity I want marv dead more than anyone in this thread but I don't like this . I mean like shiiiittt... Yeah this is bad. lol. On May 25 2023 08:30 DarthPunk wrote:
I could also get on the MZ wagon by the way. On May 25 2023 08:32 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 08:31 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 25 2023 08:30 DarthPunk wrote:
I could also get on the MZ wagon by the way. Out of all the people who want to kill me, this one makes me the most sad Im really open minded, just do more, tell me why I should lynch Lightning strike? Cause that dude is seriously not engaged. Is that normal? On May 25 2023 08:33 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 08:32 VisceraEyes wrote:On May 25 2023 08:30 DarthPunk wrote:
I could also get on the MZ wagon by the way. Hmph.... I fell more strongly about a Vivax lynch. I also think you are looking better recently so that's good. :D On May 25 2023 08:44 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 08:41 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 25 2023 08:32 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 08:31 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On May 25 2023 08:30 DarthPunk wrote:
I could also get on the MZ wagon by the way. Out of all the people who want to kill me, this one makes me the most sad Im really open minded, just do more, tell me why I should lynch Lightning strike? Cause that dude is seriously not engaged. Is that normal?[/QUOTE On May 25 2023 08:37 LightningStrike wrote:
Hey just got home from dinner and I see a Vivax train is started -_- Seriously though I don't like it and it formed very fast too like wtf????? I just love when people who aren't very active magically show up when their name is mentioned, especially close to the deadline. I don't know enough about his meta game to say that low activity is alignment indicative but I will say I've hated how all of his reads are either "town" or "null" Also his above post has the exact same vibe as this one: On May 25 2023 05:58 LightningStrike wrote:
And all caught up now if MZ is town he been 100% confirmed bias towards Marv unless Marv is actually mafia which I doubt because Marv rolls over and let people lynch him as mafia more than anything. MZ if you are town please just chill out take a deep breath and reevaluate Marv. Regarding dmb: I get why people are scumreading her but how fast the wagon is forming is giving me second thoughts to be honest. Who do you want to lynch LS? Since all the wagons are forming "too fast" Ok I like this post, but it could be argued that I just love when people who aren't very active magically show up when their name is mentioned, especially close to the deadline. could also apply to you. On May 25 2023 08:56 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 08:54 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
AND TO BE CLEAR ONEGU IS NOT EVEN MY TOP SCUM READ.
I feel like people aren't reading my posts clearly. I'd still rather lynch Vivax or LS or even Marv like I've been saying for a while. But again, town can play bad, one of my current suspects could flip town, Marv could wow me and turn into the towniest townie who ever town'd and I'd almost immediately slot Onegu into that spot. I really don’t get how you can think Marv is a good lynch at this point. Because I was open, and I had a strong town read in the thread with me, I asked rayn several times why I should not be on vivax. On May 25 2023 08:52 DarthPunk wrote:
Anyway, Rayn tell me why we shouldn't lynch vivax today for not being curious as to the alignment of others when that is, by his own admission, the primary reason for his engagement as town, when in this game he has posted a lot and not been curious? On May 25 2023 09:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 25 2023 08:59 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 08:52 DarthPunk wrote:
Anyway, Rayn tell me why we shouldn't lynch vivax today for not being curious as to the alignment of others when that is, by his own admission, the primary reason for his engagement as town, when in this game he has posted a lot and not been curious? Just putting it out there. I dont mind if you lynch Vivax. You may do as you please. On May 25 2023 09:06 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 09:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 25 2023 08:59 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 08:52 DarthPunk wrote:
Anyway, Rayn tell me why we shouldn't lynch vivax today for not being curious as to the alignment of others when that is, by his own admission, the primary reason for his engagement as town, when in this game he has posted a lot and not been curious? Just putting it out there. I dont mind if you lynch Vivax. You may do as you please. Ok let me rephrase. Tell me (why) you won’t lynch vivax On May 25 2023 09:16 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 09:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 25 2023 09:07 VisceraEyes wrote:On May 25 2023 09:04 raynpelikoneet wrote:
VE is town though, bad imo, but town. No questions asked. Why bad? Genuinely curious. youre voting wrong In the post you linked you literally acknowledge that vivax could be mafia? Why is he voting wrong? On May 25 2023 09:24 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 09:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 25 2023 09:16 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 09:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On May 25 2023 09:07 VisceraEyes wrote:On May 25 2023 09:04 raynpelikoneet wrote:
VE is town though, bad imo, but town. No questions asked. Why bad? Genuinely curious. youre voting wrong In the post you linked you literally acknowledge that vivax could be mafia? Why is he voting wrong? because things may and will change in hours between the posts. OK, that is fine. But that is the reason you gave for not voting him. If there are other reasons since then, could you let me know what they are? I am also voting Vivax, so if that vote is wrong, hen I would like to know why. This is very strange to me because I asked you earlier why I shouldn't lynch vivax and you said you wouldn't stop me but now the Vivax vote from VE is wrong and we are not going to lynch mafia. Like I was genuinely frustrated that I wasn't given clarity at the time when I was repeatedly trying to get some. On May 25 2023 09:31 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 09:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Disclaimer; i am not voting vivax over meapak whatever the situation is when i am awake during D1. Just that you know. Yeah I know this. I just don't know why this is the case. Are you just being stubborn? VE posts this interpretation On May 25 2023 09:35 VisceraEyes wrote:On May 25 2023 09:31 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 09:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Disclaimer; i am not voting vivax over meapak whatever the situation is when i am awake during D1. Just that you know. Yeah I know this. I just don't know why this is the case. Are you just being stubborn? Because from his perspective it's optimal play, mafia whoever they are are going to try and influence the vote IF his reads are right. Taking his vote out of the manipulable votes reduces mafia's power to affect the outcome IF his reads are right. And he's reinforcing anyone who values his reads that he's not moving his vote so they shouldn't either in the case that I keep trying to lynch Vivax. Which rayn says is very smart post. So I take that to be the reason that Rayn is giving for not wanting to lynch Vivax. I actually don't like this reason because it prevents me from being able to play the game, if every lynch is already decided by the euros before a lynch, so in my mind I discount it. On May 25 2023 09:43 DarthPunk wrote:On May 25 2023 09:37 VisceraEyes wrote:
Or he's mafia and knows it's a mislynch. Take your pick DP. I don't think he is mafia. I also am not convinced MZ is town, I'm just trying to understand the thought processes going on. I am really open to either. I just want some fucking clarity and engagement on the topic. Which I was not provided. On May 25 2023 10:39 DarthPunk wrote:
Day One Vote Count
Meapak_Ziphh (5) marvellosity, Koshi, Vivax, raynpelikoneet, LightningStrike, Alakaslam
Vivax (5): die_meatbaby, VisceraEyes, die_meatbaby, DarthPunk, Meapak_Ziphh, Alakaslam
VisceraEyes (1): Onegu
die_meatbaby (0): Koshi, Vivax, Darthpunk, raynpelikoneet, Onegu
Marvellosity (0): Koshi, Onegu
Onegu (0): VisceraEyes, die_meatbaby
Chezinu (0): Alakaslam, Vivax
Not Voting (2): [UoN]Sentinel, Chezinu
Don't know what to make of this. Trying to figure out where the scum are and the town reads are. ( a major criticisim later) At this point Rayn has left the thread. I am posting this and then dropping the topic mainly because I want to: 1.) be clear around my thinking at the time of the wagon on vivax forming 2.) clarify that yes, if Rayn had given me any strong reason to vote MZ over Vivax when we were interacting in the thread prior to the lynch I would have done so. 3.) Point out that I don't think it was as clear and obvious as people are making it out to be prior to the lynch, and if it was, then some clear communication about that fact would have changed the outcome. I am struggling to figure out this is what DP is interested in close to deadline N1? Like sure. But these are the questions. 1. Why did he hard townread MB when the rest of town (especially marv, Vivax, rayn) did not feel that way2. Why did he townread TTT when neither of us felt that way 3. How did he at all have too many townreads during N1 I think it was when I had 2It stinks to me
Regarding me, his read on me is well within what I expect from him. He is better than me at this, knows me very well, and as bad as I am at this game as town, I'm worse as scum. I wouldn't believe DP if he wasn't confident he could catch me given enough time.
That's not to say I think this confirms him town, but this is not alignment indicative. I'll point out that the outcome of his empathy in this situation is us not currently at each other's throats over Marv vs. me anymore. Without that we were sort of holding each other to account for not playing the way each other does which a scummy DP would have no reason to help resolve.
As for all his other town reads? I genuinely have no idea why he thinks half these people are town. But I don't think his read on me is part of that same pattern.
FYI DP and I have played a lot of different games together, we probably know each other better than anyone else here does. We went to school together, lived together, worked together. He doesn't get to predict me 100%, but he definitely gets to feel like he could.
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On May 27 2023 10:00 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2023 09:43 TankTopTiger wrote:
I don't think redDP hammers the vote D1 if redVE led it.
Why not? Knowing Meapak is town why does it matter if they are on the same wagon or not, they are equally "wrong" anyways.
VE's case on vivax was weak. There's no reason to jump on it unless you've got your own reasons for thinking vivax scum. I happened to think vivax was a good lynch at the time (better than MZ), but at no point was it because VE made a compelling case.
For scumDP, it made little sense to hammer a weak case on a (to be confirmed) town. Instead they could have just let MZ die and had you lot in the gallows the next few days.
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The same logic applies but I guess I tend to expect mafia to try and diversify their scum portfolios instead of all going in on the one train day 1 without a strong motivator. I can see redVE jumping on your wagon because they seem reckless, but I guess I don't expect it from you?
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Not gonna lie, I've not paid much attention to LS. I figure if any of the less influential members are suddenly super important I'll filter dive them and develop an opinion then.
I've basically been skipping all posts by LS, Ala, Chez and Onegu as they're either trolling, lurking, or have had very little influence for other reasons.
I don't really see there being time for me to change my mind before next lynching, given the full day I have tomorrow.
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I think it comes off as bad but I don't know LS. They have a lot of posts (on their acconut)but are those mafia game posts (I assume so).
With VE, at times he wrote succinctly and showed awareness. This is part of the reason why his shit-postery feels so wrong to me, because I know he's hiding his power level one way or another. With LS, it seems to me like he posts in a stream of consciousness way even before the game began.
Overall the tone of LS's post is off. He's trying to be hyperbolic similar to how Koshi was after N1 post but Koshi seemed pretty emotional while LS does not. I agree it's out of place for LS's level of engagement, but I'm so used to inconsistency in lower engagement players I don't consider it that worthy of note.
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I don't think you can convince me that he's a better lynch than VE, and I'm not really sure what has you convinced.
I don't really place any stock in vivax's read. I don't know vivax other than that as doctor he managed to die d1. I don't see LS as having so much internal logic you get to have strong reads on them.
If you can show me that right now, you (DP) have the knowledge that actually LS is capable of being a proactive and productive town member, I'll listen. So show me a game where he had a large and productive filter that you were in (you being in it is important because otherwise it'll be post-hoc). If you don't have that knowledge currently, this feels kind of weird from you.
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At least in my eyes, it's so small though.
With players like I'm pigeonholing LS as, their variance is high. So that 10% scummer move is more like a 2-10% scummer move depending on the day.
But with VE, he's just blatantly led a lynch D1, while being the sort of player who would do that as scum. He's had absolutely shocking posts where he confidently asserts dumb shit. He's tried to sheep at any chance he can. He hasn't shown any curiosity at all. He's about as red as someone can be, but nEvEr MiNd GuYs he's just crazy like that. No, he's scummy. And I'm sick of pretending he's not.
Unless you know something I don't about VE, I don't really see how you can ignore this flagrant shittery.
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You talk about LS being clearly performative, but VE is more performative.
You talk about lack of engagement, but VE has been more present while demonstrating similar engagement (he's accusing but not searching).
You say LS lacks conviction but VE is just pretending to have conviction.
I just don't get it. If VE weren't right in front of me I'd probably be taking your case seriously rn but it's been eclipsed.
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I'm gonna be busy a lot of tomorrow. It's gonna be hard to get in any game time here. Chances are, I won't be back until well after the lynch. I expect DP to have limited time too (as some of our plans are shared).
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I read your post DP.
You missed that monstrous list he did D1, which IMO is almost enough to put someone in the gallows on its own.
I agree with some of your reads on him (especially the one where he was empathetic about someone wanting to have a read on their partner, that was my interpretation too), but we see a lot of their filter differently.
From what people say, VE is big balls player. IIRC Rayn or Marv cited him as having bragged that this is exactly the sort of thing he would do (brazenly lead a lynch on town D1). You call it a next-level play, and I guess it is in a way, but it's something that seems on the cards regardless.
His outburst at rayn felt a little more genuine but again, over the top. Do people accuse others of gaslighting in anger frfr? Maybe I'm out of touch, but not quite convincing to me. It's also possible to be feel disrespected as mafia when trying to abuse the respect you don't receive. The sentiment is extremely relatable (Rayn and others pushing others to play the game the way they insist), but this could also be VE trying to appeal to existent townie frustrations.
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Am I mistaken in thinking that DP wasn't opposed to the VE lynch before, but preferred LS?
I had made it really clear to DP that I wasn't even really considering LS for tonight because I was locked onto VE. He wants LS lynched so he was trying to downplay VE.
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Anyway, I've gotta go get ready. Happy lynching.
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Just caught up (but still pretty busy). We're finally in the game
Rayne, I think you need to put all your thoughts on paper because I don't think you see sunshine.
Marv, now that I have permission to suspect you, can you explain to me what you meant by the clean/obvious part of your read on MZ's case on you. It didn't make sense to me but I let it go at the time because questioning you felt unproductive, but it's super important to me now.
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You told me the case was too clean and too obvious. It was implied I'm bad because I don't understand why these indicate he's mafia, but I recall no other reason being given.
If it's some understanding I don't have, I need to understand it. I am definitely voting for you next unless I come to understand why these indicate MZ is scum. It doesn't have to be you who tells me, since, as this is some obvious scum tell, Rayn or DP should be able to explain it to me too.
So please, anyone, tell me why a case being clean or obvious is a bad thing that indicates red alignment.
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Vivax saying MZ was tunnely is not the same as you saying his case was clean or obvious.
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So DP you don't know what he meant?
Rayn do you?
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And the obvious part of it?
If the case on you was obvious, then it was only obvious because you deserved a case on you? How does this make sense?
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Why did redVE throw suspicion on Marv early on then leave it in the dust when he rightfully knew there was no way Marv was being lynched D1? He basically doesn't mention marv the rest of the game.
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To me it seems like you're going outrage route on your way out.
But Rayn, who holds you in very high esteem, told me with great clarity that the thing that makes you an exceptional town player is your ability to keep your head on straight. You make decisions that will keep town on the right path, keep them from getting distracted. It was basically a promise that if Marv is town, everyone will know it because he's some legendary and meticulous war general who will save the day starting day 2.
But you led a lynch on town, then didn't do anything of note day 2, and have fallen apart the moment Koshi and Rayn stop playing henchmen for you (you're literally throwing hands at me and DP while simultaneously demanding civility).
Your "hunting" has been OMGUSing MZ, OMGUSING me, OMGUSING DP, and lightly OMGUSING Rayn for questioning you.
You are not the prince who was promised. You are not confirmed town Marv. You're the other thing.
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Like... You keep appealing to crowds as if they can't be wrong, but when confronted with a group of people pointing the finger at you, actually crowds can be wrong.
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Okay you're calling me bad but I don't think you have grounds to do that.
I came in and went against all the pros on my read on MZ and I was right. I then took charge on taking down VE despite everyone saying he's just whacky like that, and I was right again. I said your case on MZ was weak when everyone was fighting me on it, and now suddenly people seem to be agreeing with me.
You mislynched MZ with a weak case you seemed to try to distance yourself from if I hadn't pressed you for your contribution, then you waited for the two least experienced players to take charge on VE.
What have you done? Keep in mind, your tantrums are only a very small part of the case on you. You were happy to be described as a cool operator when it suited you, but now it's okay for you to have a shitfit over nothing. You started this game with enormous privilege with everyone tripping over themselves to sheep and defend you. A competent town Marv does not throw that away by all accounts I've heard. A competent town Marv helps town in a meaningful way by Day3.
You can be frustrated. Cool. Take a breath. I'm not here to torment you. Help me how your actions live up to even a shadow of the hype of confirmed town Marv?
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Am i wrong in thinking that connecto-cases this early tend to be bad?
Like, we only have VE, who played knowing there was a good chance he goes down early. He leaned into getting lynched. Trying to name the entire team before we unburrow a non-throwaway mafia seems like putting the cart before the horse.
What does PoE mean again?
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Well played Rayn. Thanks for the dump.
I'm parking a vote on Marv for all of the many reasons I've discussed at length. I simply cannot reconcile all the claims made about him carrying town with his actions. When I look at Rayn or Koshi, I got town vibes constantly. With DP, it's more complicated, because I know that he's insanely difficult to track as mafia. But for Marv, who is supposed to be the easiest town to spot, I see mostly evidence of him being mafia. Everything everyone has said about his meta indicates he should be a green read at this point if he is town but he's not even close. If you guys hold his town play in high regard like Koshi and Rayn demanded I do, then he's pretty clearly mafia at this point.
##vote: Marv
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On May 29 2023 11:08 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2023 11:04 TankTopTiger wrote:
Am i wrong in thinking that connecto-cases this early tend to be bad?
Like, we only have VE, who played knowing there was a good chance he goes down early. He leaned into getting lynched. Trying to name the entire team before we unburrow a non-throwaway mafia seems like putting the cart before the horse.
What does PoE mean again? What are you referring to hear?
I'm referring to talking about having a whole lineup of the scum team. You said Marv/MB/VE and LS said me/Marv/VE. To me this feels out of sequence, we should wait until we get a kill on a mafia who isn't playing around being caught before we try to dream up the entire scum team. Otherwise we're A) building cases on quicksand and B) choreographing our play so that scum knows who to fuck with.
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Regarding Rayn being NKed night 1:
Kosh was mad AF and throwing fingers everywhere. Killing him creates opportunities for scum to martyr him for any one of his reads. Keep in mind, mafia could not have predicted that Koshi would vig MZ.
So as a mafia on day 1, I would be thinking that "if I kill Koshi, I get rid of a good player, I get casus belli for literally anyone on vivax's wagon AND on MZ. Furthermore if I'm Marv and I'm scum, I have also created a safe pocket for myself on the train that didn't lynch the doctor.
If I'm scuMarv, there is no way I NK Rayn, who is just my high-level bodyguard at this point, over Koshi who achieves everything I could ever want in an NK.
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LS you've had real life stuff, but that doesn't mean you have done stuff in this game. From the reader's perspective you are just a non-contributing player one way or another. You can't win on that front so don't bother arguing it.
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FWIW LS I haven't even read the vast majority of your posts and your back and forths etc. You seem to constantly think you're under insane pressure but the only pressure I see on you is DP gently asking you questions, as if to gather the information for a potential future case.
If I were to guess, I'd say you probably see day 4 and if you don't there's not much you can do about it given your limited contribution. So plan around having a solid position that can be appraised day 4, so that (assuming you're town), you give us a solid chance not to mislynch you.
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DP I think you should allow them the room to breathe. This just causes them to have to keep returning to why they haven't contributed, rather than contributing.
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On May 29 2023 11:44 Alakaslam wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2023 11:20 LightningStrike wrote:On May 29 2023 11:16 Alakaslam wrote:On May 29 2023 11:04 LightningStrike wrote:
Well that NK point towards me.... At least I was right about my read on him. Why? I am not seeing how this NK implicates anyone, Rayn was so town it hurts and is the only one of us who has managed to actually catch scum Like the team would then just let him live? Pure WIFOM to think anything is implied by this NK other than "raynpelikoneet good" Let's see in his last will he did say to lynch me today. Yes I do know he is a good player but why did he not get killed Night 1 then? They were busy killing Koshi, But this is a decent point in another way. Who did Koshi sus? That could hold good info on finding the remaining scum. Because Rayn is a strong player (imo stronger than Koshi) and so is marv; why Koshi first? Unless it was a total snipe? Actually what the hell I need to read it myself. These blues dying early makes me wonder if some serious vet power is the scum. Maybe not LS after all if this yields something.
Your process here (who did koshi sus?) is exactly what I predicted with my outline of why koshi died. Just sayin'.
On May 29 2023 11:33 TankTopTiger wrote:
Regarding Rayn being NKed night 1:
Kosh was mad AF and throwing fingers everywhere. Killing him creates opportunities for scum to martyr him for any one of his reads. Keep in mind, mafia could not have predicted that Koshi would vig MZ.
So as a mafia on day 1, I would be thinking that "if I kill Koshi, I get rid of a good player, I get casus belli for literally anyone on vivax's wagon AND on MZ. Furthermore if I'm Marv and I'm scum, I have also created a safe pocket for myself on the train that didn't lynch the doctor.
If I'm scuMarv, there is no way I NK Rayn, who is just my high-level bodyguard at this point, over Koshi who achieves everything I could ever want in an NK.
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Chezinu I hope you're coming up with some good cases while larping around.
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Do mafia get to keep posting in the mafia discord after they've been lynched?
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I was thinking about what happens if we lynch marv and he's red. I was worried about a situation where we'd have to hunt down one of the non-contributing players who is then being micro-managed by a skilled player which would be hard.
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How long from this post until lynch?
I've got to go work, I've read the thread up until now. I will be spending tonight on the game if there is still time.
Marv, I plan on putting effort into evaluating your claims. I need to verify the things people say about your tells, and how they're represented in this thread. I also need to look at your case on MZ in more detail to see whether your push on them was warranted as you say.
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@Town
I think this lynch is basically for the game. If somehow our next lynch is town, then it's going to be 3 town to 2 scum left, and we will have lost one of our stronger players. If the next lynch is scum, it'll be four town to one scummer, and they will have (presumably) lost their best player.
So I think this lynch is the most important one thus far. Maximum effort please.
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@DP and Marv
Does it make sense for a cop to come forward now if we have one? I want to say yes but I don't have experience in this area.
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Err... Pretty sure I accounted for that?
@Town
I think this lynch is basically for the game. If somehow our next lynch is town, then it's going to be 3 town to 2 scum left, and we will have lost one of our stronger players. If the next lynch is scum, it'll be four town to one scummer, and they will have (presumably) lost their best player.
So I think this lynch is the most important one thus far. Maximum effort please.
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yesyesyes you're both very good hon'
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Errr... If you think that then Marv is probably just going to die because he's given up.
I mean... I'm not opposed to that since he's who I'm trying to get lynched, but if you care about actually playing the game and trying to do your best to win, now is the time to do that. I want you, DMB, LightningStrike, and Chezinu, to all do your best to be informed voters for this one. It's going to decide the game.
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@LightningStrike
Waaay too early in the game, you gave Marv a town read for not folding to DP's D1 pressure. You are aware of Marv's "fold as scum" meta.
But right now, Marv has folded, and your vote is on DP.
Explain.
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On May 23 2023 23:32 LightningStrike wrote:
Hey I was busy last night and didn't check to see if the game started and caught up now!
Marv looks town to me? I think he would of folded as mafia considering he is known for that given the pressure he was getting from DP but he continued posting his thoughts like I remembered how he was in XXX in 2015.
VE is null he hasn't posted anything since a few hours ago will wait for judgement on him.
dmb is null the stuff for why she scumreading Vivax is very odd?
Koshi is town so far he been posting like I remembered how he was when I played back then.
Rayn looks town I like the pressure on dmb from him so far and waiting for a conclusion of his pressure on her.
DP I didn't like his early posting towards Marv (Even suggesting Marv is mafia??) and then gave a hard townread on dmb?His evolution of his read on Marv does seem organic. Null for now I guess.
On May 25 2023 05:58 LightningStrike wrote:
And all caught up now if MZ is town he been 100% confirmed bias towards Marv unless Marv is actually mafia which I doubt because Marv rolls over and let people lynch him as mafia more than anything. MZ if you are town please just chill out take a deep breath and reevaluate Marv. Regarding dmb: I get why people are scumreading her but how fast the wagon is forming is giving me second thoughts to be honest.
Receipts.
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This looks extremely sus to me. I haven't been paying attention to your and DP's conversation, so this might have already been covered, but if you can't or haven't explained this then you are the deepest red possible for me. I cannot envision a world in which you are aware of his meta, base your reads on him on that meta, then don't change your mind when you see him fold.
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I know I said cart and horse and all that, but I feel pretty confident here. DP I agree, if either flips red the other goes down too. Lemme just go get the full quotes lined up real quick so everyone can see it real easy.
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On May 23 2023 23:32 LightningStrike wrote:
Hey I was busy last night and didn't check to see if the game started and caught up now!
Marv looks town to me? I think he would of folded as mafia considering he is known for that given the pressure he was getting from DP but he continued posting his thoughts like I remembered how he was in XXX in 2015.
VE is null he hasn't posted anything since a few hours ago will wait for judgement on him.
dmb is null the stuff for why she scumreading Vivax is very odd?
Koshi is town so far he been posting like I remembered how he was when I played back then.
Rayn looks town I like the pressure on dmb from him so far and waiting for a conclusion of his pressure on her.
DP I didn't like his early posting towards Marv (Even suggesting Marv is mafia??) and then gave a hard townread on dmb?His evolution of his read on Marv does seem organic. Null for now I guess.
Marv rolls over as scum.
On May 25 2023 05:58 LightningStrike wrote:
And all caught up now if MZ is town he been 100% confirmed bias towards Marv unless Marv is actually mafia which I doubt because Marv rolls over and let people lynch him as mafia more than anything. MZ if you are town please just chill out take a deep breath and reevaluate Marv. Regarding dmb: I get why people are scumreading her but how fast the wagon is forming is giving me second thoughts to be honest.
Marv rolls over as scum.
On May 30 2023 03:17 LightningStrike wrote:Just woke up and Marv gave up  I don't know how to feel about that to be honest. Also dmb ninja voted Marv too. Hmmm
Oh gee, Marv rolled over.
On May 30 2023 04:20 LightningStrike wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2023 03:29 marvellosity wrote:
LightningStrike, if you are town you need to vote with me and lynch DP.
If not, then I will flip town, DP will get lynched and flip mafia, then you will get lynched. Your choice bud. This appeal to emotion is just to strong for me. If he is mafia he wouldn't of appealed to me this hard over others. ## Vote: DarthPunk
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Does the game say anything more than Marv once rolled over D1 as scum?
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You said you were pretty sure you could read him but your read comes down to "if he folds D1 he's mafia" and "if he folds later than this he's confirmed town"?
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Wow really? Everything else aside, that's actually insane to me. I consider that basically cheating to grief your team so hard as mafia while uber try-harding as town.
Can I get other people weighing in here because I'm not reading 5 other games.
You said you were pretty sure you could read him but your read comes down to "if he folds D1 he's mafia" and "if he folds later than this he's confirmed town"?
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Okay but he's not try-harding. He didn't get lynched D1 because he had Koshi and Rayn handing grapes up to him as he presided over the peasants from within his palanquin. Why would he ever have folded in your mind if the two strongest, most townest players were saying "Marv is vetted" and "MZ's case on Marv is REALLY bad", both things that these skilled confirmed town players later took back.
Why would he fold under non-existent pressure, and more importantly, why would you think he would?
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But here's the clincher LS, you already admitted this is not your read.
Not once but twice since day 1 you have said you were willing to consider Marv as scum.
On May 29 2023 10:21 LightningStrike wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2023 10:17 DarthPunk wrote:On May 29 2023 10:15 LightningStrike wrote:On May 29 2023 10:11 DarthPunk wrote:On May 29 2023 10:05 LightningStrike wrote:
I mean it's to much as there was 2 people but still point stand it was still RNG'd just towards VIvax over MZ. Its not RNG though, he is asking who he should vote for? We all read that right? so then we are going to be racing to start a post with our preffered lynch, Which is what slam did, Is none of this changing your mind? If Slam and Chez flipped town right now who is the final mafia? To be fair he did say Even character be Vivax Odd be MZ in his very next post but regardless. If Slam and Chez flipped ( I had them nulls but Chez thing was a misread overall and had him town before hand but want to confirm his alignment for the rest of the town) town I will have to do an entire evaluation of the entire game from scratch which I had done before as town. OK but can you re-evaluate now as a hypothetical? If I really had to use a gun to point at my head and assume both flipping town right at this very second maybe Marv, and you? But mostly because I would have to accept my read on Marv is wrong but I am pretty sure I can read him.
On May 29 2023 10:44 LightningStrike wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2023 10:30 DarthPunk wrote:On May 29 2023 10:24 LightningStrike wrote:
Unless you want me to just do an entire revaluation right now based i can try right now but that i had going into the filter dives. The problem is, I read slam and Chez both as town, I know I am town, so in a world in which you are town, I want to kind of see if I can agree with any of your thought processes or reads, and see if we can read the game in a way that makes sense together. I making this assumption in which you also do flip town along with Chez and Slam just for this: Team would be Marv and TTT by PoE mostly because I think Rayn is town because he didn't trappy play Day 1 like he did in XXX along with how he been posting and playing seems like normal town Rayn. dmb I don't see how she could ever be mafia with VE given what I posted about it earlier. I know my own alignment as town and by PoE it would be them in that case.
If your read was "if Marv folds D1 scum, else: town". Why would you twice say you would be willing to consider Marv as mafia after D1. Furthermore, why would you only say this up until the point he folds, then refuse to vote for him?
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If he suicides to get the lynch, then it's not really needing two correct lynches in a row to win, as him dying is implied.
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There are many small reasons that are hard to quantify, like I said before, DP and I know each other very well, but these are the two that form the bulk of my perspective and are easy to communicate:
1) Do you remember what Rayn said about Marv on D1? How he was gently guiding everything to try and make town successful (even if this didn't turn out to be the case)? Well, DP did that without taking credit. He's the only one who knew my "meta". When both Koshi and Rayn suspected me because I see things differently, he stepped up and revealed my identity, showing them both how exactly these feelings had caused Rayn to mislynch me once before 10 years ago or w/e. If he was mafia, he could have just let town fight for all of night one and probably day two (and believe you me, I was ready to throw down with those two - I was super pissed off with their cliquing). DP fixed the issue, and freed up myself, Koshi, and Rayn to be productive town (to emphasise, that's two confirmed good town players plus me). He did this not to advance his own town claim, but to ensure town was productive. This was a huge unsung contribution that dwarfs most other actions in the game IMO.
Secondly, while I was focused almost entirely on Marv, DP was developing a case on LS, who I also have a strong red read on. While it wasn't actually anything DP said about LS that convinced me (I encountered what I consider a fatal contradiction when reading back through the filter), the fact he was there before me suggests he cottoned onto something real via his own methods.
Another big reason is I don't think it's plausible for DP and Marv to both be red, so DP's townliness is proportional to Marv's scumliness, and Marv is scummy by every metric people have provided me with via his meta on top of my own independent criteria.
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Can you quote me the post that Koshi is talking about? I couldn't find it in filter.
TBH I don't read everything in detail. When my attention snags on something that I feel isn't the way it should be, I need to follow that until I'm satisfied otherwise the sheer weight of information will overwhelm me. So if I don't have something I'm chewing on, I skim until I snag, and then I resolve and resume skimming. But this game I'm constantly snagged. I was trying to tunnel Marv but VE snagged me harder. Then more recently I was again trying to tunnel marv and I snagged on LS (although these cases are more related). This is my process, and it works well for me by prioritising my learning and engagement.
At the time, Koshi was being a super annoying bastard who wasn't allowing me to push my line of questioning. Every time I tried to question the status quo, Rayn or Koshi would put roadblocks in my way and addressing whatever you said was one such roadblock.
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If Marv is town, I still think there's a case on LS, but I'm willing to consider DP as well. I will have to take a step back and reconsider a lot. I would genuinely have no clue why DP would have done the things he's done, but I know he's a better player than me so it's always possible he's just that far ahead. I really doubt it though.
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I'm headed to bed. I've got an unclear day tomorrow.
I was expecting to go out to the country today to work, but my lift never turned up and didn't call (hence why I was present most of the day when I said I wouldn't be). This isn't surprising, but I just don't know what's going on. I assume I'll be going tomorrow but don't know for certain.
Gnight.
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I'll sneak a look before I go... can't help myself.
I'm not throwing shade at Koshi. I'm just calling these specific events as I see them. I sort of assume people have their reasons even if I'm too inexperienced to understand them.
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if you are town you will die in the first night for shure. Mafia are to scared of good players like you, so they make you die, because they know people would vote me out directly and so we lose 3 town people in D1 N1 and D2.
If you don´t die in this night you are more likly to be mafia (for me) and people would vote on you on d2
This the one?
I just thought you were wrong is all. For that to be true Marv would need to be so dangerous that even when he's not going well he's considered more of a threat than Koshi, Rayn, DP. On top of that, it ignores other aspects of what makes for a good NK, like how town interpret it, avoiding doctors, or sniffing out blues.
You can tell I didn't believe in your theory because despite wanting Marv dead, he's made it through two NK's and I still don't think this is grounds to assume him mafia. And I don't think you believe it anymore either, because that would make this lynch super simple for you.
Regarding Koshi's specific request: You were talking about Marv being terrifying by reputation by his meta, while I was talking about Marv being useless in actuality in the game. It was only a contradiction if you viewed it in low-resolution.
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On May 30 2023 23:02 die_meatbaby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2023 22:55 TankTopTiger wrote:
I'll sneak a look before I go... can't help myself.
I'm not throwing shade at Koshi. I'm just calling these specific events as I see them. I sort of assume people have their reasons even if I'm too inexperienced to understand them. We are both inexperienced players here, although you have already played the same game on other platforms, as far as I have noticed. Don't you think Darth Punk wants to manipulate us? When you first suspected Marv, he logically got involved immediately. When I filter DP I notice that his emotions have become stronger since the voting contest between Marv and him started.
Unless DP's manipulations are worlds better in mafia than they are IRL, no I don't think so. My thoughts are my own. I took VE down before DP jumped on. I was on Marv from my very first post. I actively ignored DP's case on LS (telling him to give LS more room to breathe) until I came across evidence independently that I found convincing. I've been lost in games before, and it feels bad because you have to rely on other people to tell you which way's up. But while my views align with DP's he hasn't caused them, and to the extent he's influenced me, I've been sure to get verification from other town (such as regarding specific player's metas).
Re: Marv
Maybe in the morning if I don't get picked up early. It's past midnight and I'm already behind on sleep sorry.
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What the fuck is happening. Why with these last-second switches?
Looks like my vote doesn't matter, and I'm happy with either lynch. But this seems so unnecessary. If LS is red, Marv is scum.
+ DMB, IMO Marv is trying to pocket you. He's constantly "confirmed you town" which is warm and fuzzy but you've literally never been the lynch so this much attention being paid to you is weird. He wants you to defend him, like Rayn and Koshi were defending him early. The guy's a puppeteer.
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Hell if LS is green Marv is likely still scum.
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@town
If I had asked you what you would expect Marv's contribution to be by the end of D3, would you have said "He will have a very strong town read on a player who people already think is town?". Is this a legendary town player to you?
Compare to DP (who is currently being retarded but nevermind)
+ DP freed up three townies N1 by resolving a conflict smoothly. Not just confirming and reconfirming a townie, but actually generating townie actions. Rayn and I being freed up D2 allowed the lynch on VE to happen, as we were crucial in getting that train going.
+ DP built the foundations for the case on LS. While my case was a different line to DP's, it was built on the conversation that he pursued on his read. The case on LS doesn't exist without DP.
All a red DP had to do to win was talk about literally anything other than what he did.
Marv keeps talking about how town he is for... coming back after having given up... But he did give up and that's his tell! Just because he limps back in after realising just how badly he fucked up does not make him town. Legendary Town Marv does not give up to begin with. And what has Marv actually done?
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Thank fuck. I was going to be super upset if I was wrong on that one.
Okay so we're down to one mafia. I want to use tonight to fortify town resolve against Marv, because I probably won't see daylight. RedMarv's "meta-level one" play (the play that is optimal given no wifom considerations) is to NK me and then mind control town into lynching DP over him, playing on your paranoia.
But keep in mind that Marv's stocks are even lower now than when every single town voted him earlier. LS refused to vote Marv despite pretending he was open to it and now we 100% know LS was mafia. VE acted similarly, pretending to want a lynch on Marv early when there was no way Marv was being lynched, then basically trying to stay out of Marv's way after D1 when there was a chance of weakening Marv's position.
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Why did you swap to LE from Marv if you wanted him lynched yesterday?
To me it seemed pretty clear that you wanted Marv dead over LE, then you changed your mind in the spur of the moment and cattle-ranch town all followed you. Was I mistaken?
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Isn't that the most compelling case against him?
Town marv has never been in this position because town marv does not get in this position.
1) Marv is either town or scum
2) If Marv is scum, Marv gets in trouble early
3) If Marv is town, Marv does not get in trouble early <= he's giving us this premise (which wasn't necessary but converges nicely with the modus ponens
4) Marv got in trouble early
C: Marv is scum
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To be clear, I'm not in anyway retracting my confidence on Marv.
But hypothetically, if Marv is not scum (big if), what you're doing now is distancing yourself from his mislynch which is something a redDP would need to do now that it's (about to be) 4-1.
In my head, I was dying tonight confident that you would carry the lynch out on Marv/LS. You're bouncing around too much for someone who's experienced the Marv meta firsthand.
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Mmmm I don't trust this at all. If Marv somehow flips town, and I somehow survive, we are probably going to fight a bunch. This seems uncharacteristically unconfident and silly of you.
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TBH I have no idea how you guys find the time or inclination to read other games while playing this one. I feel like reading all of this one is too much.
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On January 17 2015 20:14 marvellosity wrote:
can you even *imagine* what my filter *should* look like in a game this size?
not getting lynched when everyone realises you're mafia is quite the achievement, i'd say :p
There's no such thing as "stylistically" calling certain townies mafia. That's just incorrect play, nothing more, nothing less. And he wasn't the only one.
edit: like town needs to cut through what's important and what's not. calling obvious townies and likely townies mafia is what lets mafia hide!
Damdred and I were playing below our towngames, and noticeably so, and that's what was *actually* important, but it was beautifully drowned out (from scum PoV) from all the crackpot nonsense going on around us, hiding us in amongst the bs.
GG Marv.
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Spit out your TMI case Marv. Say what you mean for once instead of trying to phrase your conclusions as questions.
You are in no danger of NK, there is no need to wait until daylight.
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DP is trying so hard to get NKed now.
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So I'm your only red read? If we form a pact where we both get lynched that works for you Marv?
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With great satisfaction do I now tell you to go look in my filter for the many, many posts I've made detailing my suspicions of you.
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You know, since the onus is on the asker and all that.
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Then I'm happy to be lynched, right after you ofc.
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Marv thinks I'm scum because I don't express doubt in my read in him.
I don't remember playing ginger when I led the charge on VE or when I cracked LS?
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I'm sick of answering your endless questions. MZ identified around post 300 that all you do is ask questions without taking them anywhere. It's now nearly post 3000 and you still haven't taken them anywhere. Unless you can post to something that you've done since then?
You tell me what you've done Marv and I'll entertain your hypothetical. Only fair.
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Won't even answer the question. ZZZZZZZZ
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No fuck that tell me a single thing you've done stop running
From my perspective you've:
+ pocketed DMB
That's it. That's #ConfirmedTownMarv's contribution after over a week of play. You are worshipped by people for being such a strong town, yet somehow you've managed to do nothing. How? What is your secret old man?
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Why are you so bored? You have someone yelling in your face and you're pretending to be bored. Why?
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You're the most engaged you've been all thread but you're saying this is boring?
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I suspended my case on you twice already to catch mafia (which I did btw, we are not the same).
I've demonstrated that I'm willing to make cases on other people when their behaviour warrants it. Nobody else is even a mite as suspicious as you my dude. Not even close.
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Name a single thing you've done scumbo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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You followed my lead on both lynches then claimed I hadn't done anything. Good job man.
@Town
Don't be lazy on this. The votes are right there. I was second to vote VE and first to push the case. With LS, DP made the first case and then I followed up with the finishing blow showing he was lying about being open to lynching Marv.
While technically not lying, Marv is twisting the truth here far beyond what any honest player would consider reasonable.
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Can I ask you why you voted LS?
Because I recall you saying something along the lines of "I should probably vote LS to survive", then voting LS to survive :DDD
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Nah I don't have the time for that. I was trying to keep summary notes early day 1 but gave it up pretty quick
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What made you think he was mafia?
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On May 31 2023 17:44 marvellosity wrote:
I mean it was very obvious in the end. No investment, the non-genuine emotional reaction to Vivax flipping doctor, the sheep of me yesterday.
So your case on LightningStrike was:
+ he wasn't invested
+ his emotional reaction to Vivax flip came across as fake
+ he voted for you without investment
Is this a fair summary? Anything else you want to add?
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Okay I answer and you answer yeah? Deal?
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Deal or no deal? You said two way street yet seem to act like you only want it one way.
I will answer if you will answer. 1 for 1.
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Okay.
The question was genuine. I've played many games similar to mafia in the last 10 years, all with varying rules. In Blood on the clocktower, people don't die when lynched, instead coming back as ghosts with one single vote to last them the rest of the game. In werewolf, there are many roles that keep acting after death. In general, a huge limitation of mafia-like genre is that when someone is dead they no longer get to play, and there's been a shift toward keeping people playing in some limited capacity with every iteration I play. I honestly didn't remember the rule since it's been 10 years or whatever since I played, but even if I did remember, I probably would have asked anyway in case it's changed.
Now you:
So your case on LightningStrike was:
+ he wasn't invested
+ his emotional reaction to Vivax flip came across as fake
+ he voted for you without investment
Is this a fair summary? Anything else you want to add?
[/quote]
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I gave Marv every opportunity to correct his story on why he voted LS. One third of that story was that LS voted for Marv without thinking.
This is unfortunate for Marv, because LS absolutely refused to vote for Marv until his dying breath. LS voted himself before voting Marv.
So one third of Meticulous Marv's case that he super duper definitely contributed to and didn't sheep... NEVER HAPPENED. Marv is making it up.
I was concerned that maybe Marv was being ambiguous in his language, so I rephrased it for him and he accepted that interpretation.
MARV JUST LIED AND PRETENDED TO HAVE MADE A CASE HE IN FACT CANT REMEMBER
This is over. Marv is scum. There can be no doubt. I'm done here.
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So your case on LightningStrike was:
+ he wasn't invested
+ his emotional reaction to Vivax flip came across as fake
+ he voted for you without investment
Is this a fair summary? Anything else you want to add?
On May 31 2023 18:14 marvellosity wrote:Don’t have anything in particular to add. Don’t need to. As an aside my mates played that Blood on the Clocktower game irl recently. I’ve never played mafia or something similar irl and that needs to happen. I believe your answer anyways
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If Marv flips town lynch me.
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If Marv flips town lynch me.
You do realise that this is an auto-lose for me if I'm scum right? There is only one scum, if it's me and I trade with Marv, Town wins.
If you're right and I'm some >9000IQ smurf player or whatever, you will win. If Marv is mafia, you will win. There are no tricks here. Lynch us both please.
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@Everybody
If Marv flips green just fucking lynch me. Quote this post. A town TTT under no circumstance lives if Marv is mislynched. Just vote me no questions asked. It will be really hard for me to talk you out of that shit if you post this quote at me.
The thing is, this whole day Marv just been spam posting and blatantly rewriting history trying to bury his Ls (and luckily for us, generating new ones). He knows that you guys aren't paying attention. Like... right now... He literally just lied about his day 3 vote (see post #2942 & #2945) and he expects you to not pick up on it. Read it please. He lied bigly. This is a killshot and you're not even listening.
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Also DMB, my experience is verifiable by DP. It's guaranteed that at least one of us is town.
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My other account was Spaghetticus, DP already linked it. I had a pattern of being bad and getting mislynched as town.
@Ches @slam @DMB
I need you guys to figure out whether you're ignoring me because you think I'm scum, or because you think I'm incompetent. Because it feels like you believe both at once somehow in your quest to lose this game.
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I want to draw attention back to this. This is a quote DP found from an obs thread where Marv was scum and in trouble, like I believe him to be now. It's a roadmap to how he functions when try-harding as scum from behind.
On January 17 2015 20:14 marvellosity wrote:
can you even *imagine* what my filter *should* look like in a game this size?
not getting lynched when everyone realises you're mafia is quite the achievement, i'd say :p
There's no such thing as "stylistically" calling certain townies mafia. That's just incorrect play, nothing more, nothing less. And he wasn't the only one.
edit: like town needs to cut through what's important and what's not. calling obvious townies and likely townies mafia is what lets mafia hide!
Damdred and I were playing below our towngames, and noticeably so, and that's what was *actually* important, but it was beautifully drowned out (from scum PoV) from all the crackpot nonsense going on around us, hiding us in amongst the bs.
Marv is playing "below his towngame". He hasn't done anything useful, he led a lynch on town early, he's been caught in lies, he gave up earlier on, he's had a scum completely refuse to vote him to save themselves. In Marvs own words, this is what he looks like when he's scum.
But you guys don't care because you're entertaining conspiratorial notions that actually I'm some sort of smurf (even though this is verifiable by DP who invited me to this game). Crackpot nonsense. According to Marv, this is the sort of bs he hides in when he's scum in order to survive.
@DP, can you please verify that my initial post regarding my level of experience is correct so we can put that to rest?
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Okay Slam, does that not mean you think I'm town, but that I'm incompetent (I'm throwing by overtunneling)?
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So if I show you two times (literally every time a scum has been caught) where I suspended my push on Marv in order to secure kills on Scum, you'll see I'm the sort of player that doesn't just tunnel, but who is flexible enough to pursue other opportunities when they present themselves?
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(1)
As a final (4 part) Manifesto, I want to return to this:
On May 31 2023 21:40 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2023 20:12 TankTopTiger wrote:
@Everybody
If Marv flips green just fucking lynch me. Quote this post. A town TTT under no circumstance lives if Marv is mislynched. Just vote me no questions asked. It will be really hard for me to talk you out of that shit if you post this quote at me.
The thing is, this whole day Marv just been spam posting and blatantly rewriting history trying to bury his Ls (and luckily for us, generating new ones). He knows that you guys aren't paying attention. Like... right now... He literally just lied about his day 3 vote (see post #2942 & #2945) and he expects you to not pick up on it. Read it please. He lied bigly. This is a killshot and you're not even listening. You’re the one that’s trying to rewrite history about my LS vote, I’ve been really straight forward with it. Mostly because it was amazingly uncomplicated. The only complicated thing was untunnelling from DP for long enough to actually make the vote.
The case was uncomplicated but Marv couldn't recall why he voted. It was uncomplicated but Marv claimed part of the reason he voted LS was because of LS's vote on Marv. LS did not vote Marv. So this "uncomplicated" case is something Marv apparently can't remember and still doesn't understand.
I made the case on LS. This case? It's literally the strongest case I've ever made in forum mafia:
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On May 30 2023 12:04 TankTopTiger wrote:
@LightningStrike
Waaay too early in the game, you gave Marv a town read for not folding to DP's D1 pressure. You are aware of Marv's "fold as scum" meta.
But right now, Marv has folded, and your vote is on DP.
Explain.
On May 30 2023 12:16 TankTopTiger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 23:32 LightningStrike wrote:
Hey I was busy last night and didn't check to see if the game started and caught up now!
Marv looks town to me? I think he would of folded as mafia considering he is known for that given the pressure he was getting from DP but he continued posting his thoughts like I remembered how he was in XXX in 2015.
VE is null he hasn't posted anything since a few hours ago will wait for judgement on him.
dmb is null the stuff for why she scumreading Vivax is very odd?
Koshi is town so far he been posting like I remembered how he was when I played back then.
Rayn looks town I like the pressure on dmb from him so far and waiting for a conclusion of his pressure on her.
DP I didn't like his early posting towards Marv (Even suggesting Marv is mafia??) and then gave a hard townread on dmb?His evolution of his read on Marv does seem organic. Null for now I guess.
Show nested quote +On May 25 2023 05:58 LightningStrike wrote:
And all caught up now if MZ is town he been 100% confirmed bias towards Marv unless Marv is actually mafia which I doubt because Marv rolls over and let people lynch him as mafia more than anything. MZ if you are town please just chill out take a deep breath and reevaluate Marv. Regarding dmb: I get why people are scumreading her but how fast the wagon is forming is giving me second thoughts to be honest. Receipts.
On May 30 2023 12:18 TankTopTiger wrote:
This looks extremely sus to me. I haven't been paying attention to your and DP's conversation, so this might have already been covered, but if you can't or haven't explained this then you are the deepest red possible for me. I cannot envision a world in which you are aware of his meta, base your reads on him on that meta, then don't change your mind when you see him fold.
On May 30 2023 12:52 TankTopTiger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 23:32 LightningStrike wrote:
Hey I was busy last night and didn't check to see if the game started and caught up now!
Marv looks town to me? I think he would of folded as mafia considering he is known for that given the pressure he was getting from DP but he continued posting his thoughts like I remembered how he was in XXX in 2015.
VE is null he hasn't posted anything since a few hours ago will wait for judgement on him.
dmb is null the stuff for why she scumreading Vivax is very odd?
Koshi is town so far he been posting like I remembered how he was when I played back then.
Rayn looks town I like the pressure on dmb from him so far and waiting for a conclusion of his pressure on her.
DP I didn't like his early posting towards Marv (Even suggesting Marv is mafia??) and then gave a hard townread on dmb?His evolution of his read on Marv does seem organic. Null for now I guess.
Marv rolls over as scum. Show nested quote +On May 25 2023 05:58 LightningStrike wrote:
And all caught up now if MZ is town he been 100% confirmed bias towards Marv unless Marv is actually mafia which I doubt because Marv rolls over and let people lynch him as mafia more than anything. MZ if you are town please just chill out take a deep breath and reevaluate Marv. Regarding dmb: I get why people are scumreading her but how fast the wagon is forming is giving me second thoughts to be honest. Marv rolls over as scum. Show nested quote +On May 30 2023 03:17 LightningStrike wrote:Just woke up and Marv gave up I don't know how to feel about that to be honest. Also dmb ninja voted Marv too. Hmmm Oh gee, Marv rolled over. Show nested quote +On May 30 2023 04:20 LightningStrike wrote:On May 30 2023 03:29 marvellosity wrote:
LightningStrike, if you are town you need to vote with me and lynch DP.
If not, then I will flip town, DP will get lynched and flip mafia, then you will get lynched. Your choice bud. This appeal to emotion is just to strong for me. If he is mafia he wouldn't of appealed to me this hard over others. ## Vote: DarthPunk
On May 30 2023 13:30 TankTopTiger wrote:But here's the clincher LS, you already admitted this is not your read. Not once but twice since day 1 you have said you were willing to consider Marv as scum. Show nested quote +On May 29 2023 10:21 LightningStrike wrote:On May 29 2023 10:17 DarthPunk wrote:On May 29 2023 10:15 LightningStrike wrote:On May 29 2023 10:11 DarthPunk wrote:On May 29 2023 10:05 LightningStrike wrote:
I mean it's to much as there was 2 people but still point stand it was still RNG'd just towards VIvax over MZ. Its not RNG though, he is asking who he should vote for? We all read that right? so then we are going to be racing to start a post with our preffered lynch, Which is what slam did, Is none of this changing your mind? If Slam and Chez flipped town right now who is the final mafia? To be fair he did say Even character be Vivax Odd be MZ in his very next post but regardless. If Slam and Chez flipped ( I had them nulls but Chez thing was a misread overall and had him town before hand but want to confirm his alignment for the rest of the town) town I will have to do an entire evaluation of the entire game from scratch which I had done before as town. OK but can you re-evaluate now as a hypothetical? If I really had to use a gun to point at my head and assume both flipping town right at this very second maybe Marv, and you? But mostly because I would have to accept my read on Marv is wrong but I am pretty sure I can read him. Show nested quote +On May 29 2023 10:44 LightningStrike wrote:On May 29 2023 10:30 DarthPunk wrote:On May 29 2023 10:24 LightningStrike wrote:
Unless you want me to just do an entire revaluation right now based i can try right now but that i had going into the filter dives. The problem is, I read slam and Chez both as town, I know I am town, so in a world in which you are town, I want to kind of see if I can agree with any of your thought processes or reads, and see if we can read the game in a way that makes sense together. I making this assumption in which you also do flip town along with Chez and Slam just for this: Team would be Marv and TTT by PoE mostly because I think Rayn is town because he didn't trappy play Day 1 like he did in XXX along with how he been posting and playing seems like normal town Rayn. dmb I don't see how she could ever be mafia with VE given what I posted about it earlier. I know my own alignment as town and by PoE it would be them in that case. If your read was "if Marv folds D1 scum, else: town". Why would you twice say you would be willing to consider Marv as mafia after D1. Furthermore, why would you only say this up until the point he folds, then refuse to vote for him?
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...and Marv says he voted without even considering any of it.
DP, you are literally the only one paying any attention. I was right about MZ, I was right about VE, I was right about LS, I am right to confirm you town. I have a demonstrable handle on this game but Marv is trying to paint me as over-tunneled after literally catching mafia every day I've been in the game.
+ Show Spoiler +Maybe it's wishful thinking but what I suspect is that right now you're trying to avoid NK by not acting too suspicious of Marv, so I kinda expect you're writing something up similar to me to dump before the NK hits (just in case). I'm not sure if it'll work, because I think Marv has played so loosely you can't not suspect him and he knows it, but you did lead the lynch off of him and onto LS, so that's certainly in your favour.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm burying this post within a fourth so Marv can't have time to adjust NK to this. This is more like the concluding post, but the fourth on VE is still relevant and good information.
If I'm NKed, I want it to be really clear once I'm dead that your townliness is unquestionable.
+ Show Spoiler +Unfortunately, if you're NKed instead of me, I'm done. To me, the game was solved two days ago, and nobody but you will listen. This game was super interesting, and I've learned an enormous amount, but I feel I lack the influence to actually impact the game. Marv is too good at manipulating the herd. So if I'm alone with sheep town against Marv, I'll vote myself in the hopes that after I'm dead, having a track record of being right about literally everything all game, sheep town will realise that I'm not red and I'm not stupid and will vote for Marv at lylo.
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I also pushed Town to lynch VE which Marv lied about doing. LOOK AT THE VOTE.
On May 28 2023 11:08 Grackaroni wrote:
Day two Vote Count
VisceraEyes (7): die_meatbaby, TankTopTiger, raynpelikoneet, Darthpunk, Marvellosity, Alakaslam, Alakaslam, Chezinu
LightningStrike (0): DarthPunk, Alakaslam, Chezinu
Onegu (1): Chezinu, Alakaslam, VisceraEyes, Chezinu
DarthPunk (1): LightningStrike
Chezinu (0): VisceraEyes
Not Voting (1) : Onegu
With 7 votes, VisceraEyes has been lynched!
Note where Marv's vote is on VE. Seems like he sheeped. Literally only beat the trolls and lurkers across the finishing line. But I didn't sheep, I built a case, even if Marv is pretending I didn't.
On May 27 2023 09:07 TankTopTiger wrote:
I think if VE is green, then red DP knew he was green when he switched, and trusted VE to make a big enough mess to get lynched for it before DP. In that scenario, DP also expected MZ to be alive (and directed vig attention at lurkers), which means that after hammering the mislynch, DP would have two days of mess before the lynchmob came for him.
So to me, lynching VE also gives me a read on DP, who I know I will otherwise struggle with.
Add to that that VE did blind lead a mob on a townie, has generally felt fake for a long time, seems to want to put attention on lurkers/trolls - VE is my top lynch for today by a pretty decent margin.
##: vote VisceraEyes
I'm going to a lunch, I'll be back later before the lynch. I don't really see myself changing my mind on this, but hey surprises happen.
This is where I start my case on VE. At this point, only DMB is parked on him, and tmk, she parked without making a case. Marv claimed he contributed, but he sheeped. He claimed I didn't contribute, but I made the first case after which town piled on.
On May 27 2023 18:47 TankTopTiger wrote:
At least in my eyes, it's so small though.
With players like I'm pigeonholing LS as, their variance is high. So that 10% scummer move is more like a 2-10% scummer move depending on the day.
But with VE, he's just blatantly led a lynch D1, while being the sort of player who would do that as scum. He's had absolutely shocking posts where he confidently asserts dumb shit. He's tried to sheep at any chance he can. He hasn't shown any curiosity at all. He's about as red as someone can be, but nEvEr MiNd GuYs he's just crazy like that. No, he's scummy. And I'm sick of pretending he's not.
Unless you know something I don't about VE, I don't really see how you can ignore this flagrant shittery.
This is me pushing for VE's lynch.
On May 27 2023 18:50 TankTopTiger wrote:
You talk about LS being clearly performative, but VE is more performative.
You talk about lack of engagement, but VE has been more present while demonstrating similar engagement (he's accusing but not searching).
You say LS lacks conviction but VE is just pretending to have conviction.
I just don't get it. If VE weren't right in front of me I'd probably be taking your case seriously rn but it's been eclipsed.
This is me pushing to lynch VE over LS. LS was mafia, who I later focused on, but at this time I was trying to get town to focus on VE.
On May 28 2023 07:32 TankTopTiger wrote:
I read your post DP.
You missed that monstrous list he did D1, which IMO is almost enough to put someone in the gallows on its own.
I agree with some of your reads on him (especially the one where he was empathetic about someone wanting to have a read on their partner, that was my interpretation too), but we see a lot of their filter differently.
From what people say, VE is big balls player. IIRC Rayn or Marv cited him as having bragged that this is exactly the sort of thing he would do (brazenly lead a lynch on town D1). You call it a next-level play, and I guess it is in a way, but it's something that seems on the cards regardless.
His outburst at rayn felt a little more genuine but again, over the top. Do people accuse others of gaslighting in anger frfr? Maybe I'm out of touch, but not quite convincing to me. It's also possible to be feel disrespected as mafia when trying to abuse the respect you don't receive. The sentiment is extremely relatable (Rayn and others pushing others to play the game the way they insist), but this could also be VE trying to appeal to existent townie frustrations.
This is me again fighting to have VE lynched.
So overall, Marv pretended he made cases on VE and LS, but can't provide them. He lied about his reasons for voting on LS in particular. He lied about my level of contribution. He's relying on a lazy town who doesn't pay attention.
TOWN MARVE CONTRIBUTES BY D4 AND DOESN'T NEED TO LIE ABOUT IT
Whether I'm NKed or not, I'm done with the game. I'm happy with how I played, but obviously, I've got a lot to learn about how to actually exert influence.
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I don't know why we're still here. I have no clue what Marv was up to.
But DP, you seemed to express some hesitation regarding Marv. What could you see that I couldn't?
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Like what DP? What did he do that made you think "hmm this guy could be town"?
Because the expectations surrounding Marv were really clear if he was town, and he met zero of them. I think the only way you think to express any doubt is if you had TMI.
Marv and I fought for like a whole day. For me, I was pressuring who I thought was red, for him he was...? What? I don't get it and you need to explain what you saw that I didn't.
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Damn, I was hoping that if I looked like I was going to tunnel DP he wouldn't be NKed. Oh well. Surprised he didn't leave any last-moment reads etc.
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Slam can you explain to me what is going on with Chez's game that DP was trying to decipher? Does Chez really hold himself to some sort of "If I say I'm town, I'm confirmed town" code between games?
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GG DP
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Damn so that means I should assume Chez is town, and you already assuming this, so it's me vs. you with Chez as the decider?
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Guys I'm here to play mafia not multiverse of madness.
Chez, I'm not part of any other game, just TL Endures Mafia hosted by Grackaroni alone. I never opted into any game you hosted. You are in a position of great privilege because you get to determine the way I vote. If you produce the seal in response to this post (quoting this post) in this game (TL Endures Mafia hosted by Grackaroni alone; it wouldn't make sense to respond to this post in a game I am not in), then I will keep my vote on Slam. If you do not produce this response, then I am voting for you.
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I am vanilla town. I have demonstrated this to the satisfaction of basically everyone paying attention including Koshi, Rayn, Marv, DP and until recently, I believe you and Slam. I did this by playing the game and being transparent with my thoughts during daylight. I built cases and pursued reads, never once sheeping. I was only able to be this transparent because I don't need to curate a meta, as I don't foresee playing again. Otherwise, this would be too difficult for me to do as mafia.
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Okay I'm here for a bit. I really was going to put the game down to Chez, and that ultimatum is still very much in effect. But I've got myself time and I'm engaged again.
Out of the two of you, I have no fkn clue what is going on with chez but I might find the strength to read through another fluffy filter later. Seems pointless given his seal meta-trump card but whatever.
For now, I'm focused on Slam. I just read Slam's filter and have some questions.
@Chez
Does Slam's meta involve repeatedly and offhandedly claiming cop when he is not in fact cop? I don't know if breadcrumbing is still a thing but back in my day all the cool kids were doing it. I personally found it a bit wifom but w/e.
@Slam
You mentioned you were worried that Chez had pocketed you, but your every interaction has you firmly entrenching your lower lip just below the cusp of his balls. You have been to Chez's package as an anaconda is to a baby gazelle. You are the butterer, not the butteree. It feels weird for you to say you have such reservations when you have been courting him all game.
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Dude I'm in lylo hell with two trolls. I get to be impolite I'm having a bad time.
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If I was scum, I would not have NKed DP. DP was on my side and it would have been him and me vs. one of the trolls which would have been an easy victory. Me against you two is not a situation I would ever want. Both of you are unpredictable and seem to act as one, while being so many meta-levels deep (a meta I'm not a part of) that I couldn't possibly hope to manipulate either of you. So for scumTTT, the NK was clear: Kill anyone but DP (probably you chez, fearing your confirmed town magic BS).
Instead, the mafia (whichever one of you it is) decided to keep their irl friend alive. You've both been buddying up all game, and the same math I just laid out for DP and myself applies.
A scum slam never wants to be alive against DP & TTT. A scum Chez never wants to be alive vs. DP and TTT. But a Scum TTT wants DP alive.
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@Slam
I'm not gonna lie, I think it's you. But if it isn't, I need you to reconsider your vote. DP thought the seal was invalid because ifchez could justify having said it within a game that isn't this one. Chez says he was "special" in that game, but his seal said "I am town!", not "I am VT!". "Special" means power role, which is part of the category of town. So him claiming "I am town" could refer to the game he hosted where he claims he is "special".
So if you are a town who is trying to win, you need to go and do the logic, and figure out whether this seal is legit.
And please read post #3227. The NK math does not work out for me. If redTTT NKed DP, I threw away a guaranteed game in order to wifom, which I would never do.
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@Chezinu
I don't know what that means?
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TTT is VT, his favourite role.
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But irl, NPC is not undescriptive :S
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Yo is this game? This is game right? We can all go home?
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I'd be down to play again too. DP you play again at your own risk, I get the feel your SI does not like the competition for your attention.
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EPT
