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Hi, I'm the sub for Sentinel. I'm caught up, but just pushed 1400 posts through my brain at top speed so don't expect me to be 100% on the ball. I'm going off vibes, so please feel free to correct me.
I've played before, maybe 10 newbie games. I'm an IRL friend of DP. I've also played meatspace werewolf a fair amount. I haven't played forum mafia in close to a decade, and don't really plan on approaching the game the same way anyway.
From what I see, there seems to be some mutual respect between Rayne, DP, and Marv. Almost like they are playing for who controls the endgame and the rest of you are just the social environment that facilitates it. Out of the three, I have no idea why people are acting like Marv is obviously town. He plays like an empty vessel. I'm obviously not part of whatever meta you guys have, but IMO MZ's aggression towards Marv has been warranted.
I would have voted for Vivax over MZ, who I get a town read off.
So I guess my first question is why Marv is just getting a free walk here? What makes everyone so certain he's town when for the most part he's not exerted any influence? IMO both Rayn and DP have provided insight, and in my eyes are earning their status, but not Marv.
Regarding VE, they strike me as committed to a bit. I'm not sure why they had such insane confidence, but honestly, a lot of how you guys talk comes off as fake to me.
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I don't see that as exerting influence proactively in a townish way. He had someone attacking him relentlessly, and so he pushed back. That's not the same as actively hunting for mafia and in my eyes he gets no points for it. It's a struggle not to push back on people who attack you.
I'm open to being wrong, like I said, I read it all kinda fast and for a good portion it was difficult to keep track of who's who. So receipts for Marv being proactively town would be appreciated.
The only thing I really remember is when he attacked VE's list post around post 300, but Rayn had already done that and it was an obviously bad post.
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On May 25 2023 20:41 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2023 20:25 TankTopTiger wrote:
So I guess my first question is why Marv is just getting a free walk here? What makes everyone so certain he's town when for the most part he's not exerted any influence? He didn't get a free walk. We attacked marv and then welcomed him in the town circle after vetting him. It's ok if you missed that. You might have read discussions about a mebaby post saying marv looked town that scammed people in a previous game and now everybody is attacking him. Also. You say some people feel fake (because we force reads most likely), and then you don't like marv for "not exerting" any influence. That is a contradiction you should try to get rid of. marv is indeed a calm player, and is not yelling and swearing. But he did get his preferred target 5 votes. So he influenced at least that. Or was that somebody else his doing?
Can you give me a time frame for when this vetting occurred? Because IMO that early nonsense where people push and pull based on nothing but farts means zero so establishing someone's alignment forevermore during that primordial soup is not a strong foundation for a town.
RE: Contradiction
It's not a contradiction. Having genuine reads is not the opposite of passivity. He asks a lot of questions (good), but then doesn't seem to take them anywhere in service to anything but his survival.
I don't like fake reads, I think they muddy shit up. They're necessary to get the ball rolling, but once the ball is rolling I expect genuine reads not empty accusations. The ball is rolling and has been for a while, so IMO we don't need them.
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Can I get other people's input on when Marv was vetted? Do people have strong reasons why he's green?
Rayn, I remember seeing you post something of the like "you're bad if you don't think Marv is town". Can I get reasons for that?
I too think Koshi should read the thread as well also. I'm not going to take him seriously if he's taking wild swings at people without having read what transpired.
@Koshi
I think there was a misunderstanding on my end. You interpreted my feeling people acted "fake" as a response to people forcing reads. I took that to mean their reads were fake, but see how that might not be the case. I was not only talking about the forced reads, but they are a large part of it.
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On May 25 2023 21:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2023 20:25 TankTopTiger wrote:
Hi, I'm the sub for Sentinel. I'm caught up, but just pushed 1400 posts through my brain at top speed so don't expect me to be 100% on the ball. I'm going off vibes, so please feel free to correct me.
I've played before, maybe 10 newbie games. I'm an IRL friend of DP. I've also played meatspace werewolf a fair amount. I haven't played forum mafia in close to a decade, and don't really plan on approaching the game the same way anyway.
From what I see, there seems to be some mutual respect between Rayne, DP, and Marv. Almost like they are playing for who controls the endgame and the rest of you are just the social environment that facilitates it. Out of the three, I have no idea why people are acting like Marv is obviously town. He plays like an empty vessel. I'm obviously not part of whatever meta you guys have, but IMO MZ's aggression towards Marv has been warranted.
I would have voted for Vivax over MZ, who I get a town read off.
So I guess my first question is why Marv is just getting a free walk here? What makes everyone so certain he's town when for the most part he's not exerted any influence? IMO both Rayn and DP have provided insight, and in my eyes are earning their status, but not Marv.
Regarding VE, they strike me as committed to a bit. I'm not sure why they had such insane confidence, but honestly, a lot of how you guys talk comes off as fake to me. Not exerted any influence? My target would have been lynched if not for some crazy EOD shenanigans and the fact i was asleep. How Much more influence do you want?
I don't really remember your compelling case. Like I said I'm running off vibes. If I'm wrong, show me.
From my perspective, you're being respected as some sort of veteran who people give concessions to and who people sheep onto when they can't figure shit out for themselves. But I don't care for that. I want to see your actions that justify you being treated as town. Was there some great post you did that buried MZ, or did you just ride your incumbency?
So perhaps "influence" is the wrong word, what I'm after is the influencing actions. If you could highlight those for me I'd greatly appreciate it.
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On May 25 2023 21:19 Koshi wrote:
Like TTT comes in and calls marv an empty shell/imposter and at the same time mebaby calls marv so strong town that if he doesn't die he should be lynched.
Of course they don't talk to each other and tomorrow they will try to vote marv out.
That seems a tad hyperbolic to me. I thought asking questions was good?
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Marv your filter is like 400 posts long. I just read 1400. Can you just point me to it please I'm trying to catch up and I don't want to have to read everyone's entire filter everytime I ask a question.
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Nah this is BS. Absence of evidence and all that. I'm asking you to substantiate your town status. You say you made a case but can't point to it. Now I have to remember or reread every single post or can't question you. Bullshit.
Koshi says you were vetted but that's not what I remember. You say you made a case but that's not what I remember.
I'm not reading it all again. There's an easy way to clear this up.
I don't need it right now, we've got three days until next lynch. Do you have access to a computer in that time?
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TBH You could just summarise it and I'll trust the collective other 10 people to fact check you. This doesn't have to be hard. We could already be done.
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Okay so what I've got is that:
Rayn made a meta-claim about MZ's behaviour. (what was this claim?)
Marv slept on it and woke up agreeing with Rayn.
Marv then built on this, saying the case was too clean/obvious, and doesn't look like he was trying to discern Marv's alignment.
Everyone then sheeped Marv's compelling claim.
Is this a fair summary of why everyone thinks Marv is town?
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Koshi, can you not think of a single reason why I would ask Marv to defend himself instead of asking the first-time player?
To a newcomer, you people are acting in lockstep with no rhyme or reason. I don't understand, and I don't expect someone who is also new to the scene to understand. So I'm asking the people I most expect to be able to answer my questions. That would be the people who apparently have it all figured out.
Can you please jump off Marv's lap if you're not going to help me? Thanks.
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In retrospect, I should have got the sheep to spell out the case that they found so compelling. I'm not very good at this.
I find this weak. It feels vague to me. But I am aware that there is a lot of local knowledge I lack and can't verify. So I'm backing off for now (proving you don't deserve to be confirmed town isn't proving you mafia). I don't like how Koshi is tripping over himself defending you, it's weird.
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Re: Koshi
I don't expect it to be as fruitful. As I'm trying to catch up, I'm focusing on the actions of the people I deem to have influence or to have moved things.
So ATM that's: you, VE, MZ, DP, Rayne, Marv. Once I have a better understanding of you guys, then I can get a handle on the noisier, less agentic players.
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Okay you've mentioned that a lot Marv (the same arguments are used by confirmed town). That doesn't matter to me. As far as I'm concerned, everyone just sheeped that last vote so I don't really have any reason to think correlation between thoughts is some gold standard of proof.
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This is how I see it (because you asked):
Rayn made a meta-claim about MZ's behaviour [that I cannot verify and that I don't trust other people to verify. This is an incredibly large pool of information to cherry pick from, meaning Rayne can always pick the narrative that suits them.]
Marv slept on it and woke up agreeing with Rayn [but then seems to be getting a lot of credit for agreeing with Rayne]
Marv then built on this, saying the case was too clean/obvious, and doesn't look like he was trying to discern Marv's alignment [but a case being clean or obvious is good actually. Which to me makes this entire act of influence reducible to pointing out the inadequacy of the line of questioning against him, a maneuver indistinguishable from personal defense]
Everyone then sheeped Marv's compelling claim.
But I'm trying to leave it for now because it's not productive. I still don't really understand how you were vetted either, but that's something I intend on taking up with Koshi/Rayne once I've slept. I expect that if someone has a confirmed town read, they are able to point to why.
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That's not to say MZ not looking for alignment is not a good point (might be worth going through this later), but it's something that was simultaneously defensive. So to me, you were very passive and only exerted influence when threatened. I have high expectations for the contributions of DP, Reyn, Marv, and Koshi, so me not seeing any evidence of you having been proactive puts you grey at best for me.
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RE: DP
I just reread his filter. I think I consider him more reasonable a lot of the time which is not the same as insightful. Other than his strong town read on Marv, I see a lot of this game the same. So I came away with the impression he had demonstrated more insight than he had.
I didn't like DP's posts early on (first 400 posts or so). It came across as corporate placation speak to me. But as there was more to talk about I felt he was consistently providing reads I agreed with.
RE: Rayn
On May 24 2023 07:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:
People i don't want to lynch:
Koshi
Lightningstrike
marvellosity
Probably not Darthpunk either. From what i know DP is very aware of the state of the game when he is mafia, not afraid to engage in conversations with his scumbuddies, basically he tends to look very town especially early on. This game i feel like DP is more like.. clueless(?) at times, and i think it's more likely genuine "i don't know what's going on" rather than "i pretend i don't really know what's going on". If DP would be mafia he would probably be mafia with two peopel who haven't posted yet.
VE goes to the same category. I don't really agree with his conclusions, hell i don't even know why he writes what he writes but i don't really think VE as mafia would write what he writes.
Vivax looks active and i'd say more likely town too. I didn't hate his last post, although there is a creeping suspicion about him and meatbaby goin like "hey can i say this in thread" -- "yeah it's fine, noone will believe you anyways and it's great distancing anyways", but i don't really have any other reason to think Vivax is mafia atm, and that reasoning in itself is stupid.
Would lyncherino:
meatbaby -- what Koshi said
MZ is tricky. Last couple (three?) games i have been mafia and every time MZ goes to post something D1 i go like "man how the hell can anyone think anything like that (he has been town)?!?!?!" and then i go "man, how the hell can anyone think MZ is mafia?!?!?" and everyone wants to lynch him.. I don't get the same feeling at all here. Maybe it's because i am not mafia and i am looking at the game differently with not all the information. I can see MZ genuinely thinking marv is mafia but something just doesn't sit right there.
Slam is the least of these three. It's not really alignment indicative for him to "cling" on someone and answer to (all of) their posts, but nothing really makes me think he is town. Probably not mafia together with marv is my best conclusion atm.
Everyone who has not posted can also die for all i care. Or anyone who has posted and i had not in my list.
I liked Rayn's take on DP and on others. It feels like they have meta takes, but don't just regurgitate them and assume everyone shares them. I'm not privy to past games (or don't have the time to read them), so them sharing this insight is appreciated. In comparison, Koshi and Marv feel like they're trying to make me shut up if I don't agree with the thing they refuse to explain. Which is how to survive but not how to lead IMO.
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I don't currently have strong red reads, I need to read some filters. I'm stun-locked by why people are so happy to call each other town but not explain why. I hate it. I don't like Marv or Koshi's play rn, but realise that doesn't make them red.
My next direction is MZ and VE. In defending himself, Marv made claims regarding MZ's case on him (obvious, clean, incurious). I figure if I filter dive MZ I'll be able to simultaneously appraise them and reappraise Marv. VE's also reddish for me. At times I thought them green, with their tunneling, but it seems like everyone agrees that this is a bit VE would do if red. So when I find the time, I'm going to review their case on Vivax with a focus on whether their aggression was organic or artificial. Right now (and for a while), they've felt fake to me, even if I (would have) voted along with them.
But I don't have time for all that until tonight. I gotta go get rl shit in order.
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@the more experienced players
I know that the setup is semi-open, but presumably hosts tend towards balanced setups. What does a balanced setup with a doctor and a vigilante look like? e.g. two blue, one power red, two vanilla red, rest green?
Can we reasonably expect there to be more blue roles in the game?
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EPT
