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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9655 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:37 Pandain wrote: At least HF thinks both are scum, so he has some leeway. You do not. Like I said, if they are both scum this logic proves even more that ES wouldn't take this action. Its literally a loss for mafia as soon as she flips. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
jock wanna join me? I'll vote with you HF at eod if ES is the only other option. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
Eywa should 100% not be able to get away with even worse logic and refusing to explain himself. | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:40 Jockmcplop wrote: Like I said, if they are both scum this logic proves even more that ES wouldn't take this action. Its literally a loss for mafia as soon as she flips. This is incorrect, but probably the perception. Honestly, both are ok plays as either alignment. You can gambit on yourself or you can counter wagon. It has nothing to do with alignment, it's just about playstyle. We shouldn't all lose our minds because someone chose gambit on themselves... | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9655 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:42 Pandain wrote: I'm going to vote Eywa until he starts talking. jock wanna join me? I'll vote with you HF at eod if ES is the only other option. I've flipflopped around enough today already! I'm going to stick with hf and see if I can build some consensus when other people are around. I really believe in this, so I want to see what other people think before I abandon it. Also, I'm not entirely convinced on eywa yet at all. Very much a slight lean toward scum from my perspective, but eywa's posting always pisses me off and I've not seen a scum flip yet. | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:42 Pandain wrote: I'm going to vote Eywa until he starts talking. jock wanna join me? I'll vote with you HF at eod if ES is the only other option. I can't help someone who thinks optimal town and optimal scum play are different here, they are almost always the same. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9655 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:44 Eywa- wrote: This is incorrect, but probably the perception. Honestly, both are ok plays as either alignment. You can gambit on yourself or you can counter wagon. It has nothing to do with alignment, it's just about playstyle. We shouldn't all lose our minds because someone chose gambit on themselves... How is this incorrect???? If ES fails to switch to grack, then flips red, we immediately kill grack because basic logic says so. If they are both mafia, mafia loses. I can't see how on earth you can possibly think otherwise. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:46 Jockmcplop wrote: How is this incorrect???? If ES fails to switch to grack, then flips red, we immediately kill grack because basic logic says so. If they are both mafia, mafia loses. I can't see how on earth you can possibly think otherwise. +1 | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:46 Jockmcplop wrote: How is this incorrect???? If ES fails to switch to grack, then flips red, we immediately kill grack because basic logic says so. If they are both mafia, mafia loses. I can't see how on earth you can possibly think otherwise. It would be incorrect to do so. That's not an associative, what happened before is the associative. All I'm saying is that her optimal play as mafia is always the same as her optimal play for town. She can counter wagon or she can gambit, both are valid plays and are NOT associative. | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:47 Eywa- wrote: It would be incorrect to do so. That's not an associative, what happened before is the associative. All I'm saying is that her optimal play as mafia is always the same as her optimal play for town. She can counter wagon or she can gambit, both are valid plays and are NOT associative. Like, based on this logic, you should always counter wagon as scum because they'll think the player you switched onto is your buddy, which would be incorrect. | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9655 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:47 Eywa- wrote: It would be incorrect to do so. That's not an associative, what happened before is the associative. All I'm saying is that her optimal play as mafia is always the same as her optimal play for town. She can counter wagon or she can gambit, both are valid plays and are NOT associative. Oh we're back on the thing where if someone's under pressure, nothing they do matters. I'm not banging my head on that brick wall, thanks. Everyone else will be able to see that this is obvious - you keep being you eywa. | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:51 Jockmcplop wrote: Oh we're back on the thing where if someone's under pressure, nothing they do matters. I'm not banging my head on that brick wall, thanks. Everyone else will be able to see that this is obvious - you keep being you eywa. Eh... What? Sigh.... I'm just saying you have option A and option B and neither is "correct". If you select option A as town, you must select it as scum. Claiming "oh, this player chose to gambit rather than counter wagon" means nothing. You might as well base your read on the time ES went to sleep. | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:53 Eywa- wrote: Eh... What? Sigh.... I'm just saying you have option A and option B and neither is "correct". If you select option A as town, you must select it as scum. Claiming "oh, this player chose to gambit rather than counter wagon" means nothing. You might as well base your read on the time ES went to sleep. This applies regardless of either player's alignment. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
For instance, ES will almost certainly get lynched if she tries to continue pushing for you. As town, it makes sense if she truly believes you are scum. As scum, it doesn't make sense, becuase she will almost certainly get lynched. Let me give you a counter example. Let's say we are playing a massive game, with 20 players and 5 scum. If one scum member buses and lynches all the 4 other scum, that's optimal town play. Is that optimal scum play? Of course not. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
Mafia want to survive. End of story. Appearing townie is just a means to an end, but it is not the main priority. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:56 Pandain wrote: I don't think your idea that "The optimal town play is the optimal scum play" is true. Or even close to true. For instance, ES will almost certainly get lynched if she tries to continue pushing for you. As town, it makes sense if she truly believes you are scum. As scum, it doesn't make sense, becuase she will almost certainly get lynched. Let me give you a counter example. Let's say we are playing a massive game, with 20 players and 5 scum. If one scum member buses and lynches all the 4 other scum, that's optimal town play. Is that optimal scum play? Of course not. No it doesn't. Oh my god. As town the optimal play is to not get lynched. If all town are slippery enough to not get lynched, then who wins? Town. Without fail. Not getting lynched is hands down the most valuable skill in Mafia as either alignment. That is a fact. Saying "oh they don't mind the consequences of" NOOOOOOO. That is NAI and it's bad town play if that's the case. | ||
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Eywa-
Canada4876 Posts
On July 03 2019 21:57 Pandain wrote: Your philosophy is wrong This is the thinking that causes most sites to have terrible town winrates to be honest (disclaimer: I don't know what the winrates is here) | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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