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On May 24 2019 23:25 Calix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2019 23:19 Jockmcplop wrote:
Calix make me believe that Koshi is mafia.
Please Lemme put it this way. He lacks any real conviction in his reads. For example, he 'town read' ruxxar and 'scum read' BC and I on Day 1. What does he do? Well he sure as hell doesn't push either of his scum reads. He just spammed 'Calix is mafia' and whined that nobody was listening to him. He didn't give valid, convincing reasons for town!ruxxar. He had the opportunity to switch his vote from moi onto BC [again, a guy he thinks has a high chance of being mafia] when BC was getting traction but Koshi did NOT switch. You will see the same pattern today. Today, he's said "lynch Calix" but not once has he made a legitimate push on me that would convince people to kill me. The same applies to his 'other scum read' HF. Nor has he made a convincing argument for town!iGrok aside from "omg no way would mafia hard-bus" He just kinda whines about how his 'town reads' are being voted over his scum reads yet does literally nothing to change the game state from that to something more favourable for town [in his eyes]. And the reason for that is because he doesn't actually care about killing mafia.
he admitted so himself when HF challenged him to put up some opposition today.
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Calix the one thing I find interesting though is that your points on koshi/rayn equally apply to VE, if not more-so than they apply to Koshi, but you townread VE.
Why do you townread VE?
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On May 24 2019 23:36 Calix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2019 23:32 wherebugsgo wrote:
Calix the one thing I find interesting though is that your points on koshi/rayn equally apply to VE, if not more-so than they apply to Koshi, but you townread VE.
Why do you townread VE? I did scum-read VE at one point but when I was catching up yesterday, I noticed VE was making smart comments that showed he was actually thinking about the game. And this was at a point where rayn was making dumb comments re: Conversion so it stood out even more. I'm not saying the 'smart comments' are townie in isolation. If I showed them to you, you would not understand why I think they're smart without context. But I do think that the 'not blindly going with whatever's in the thread' thing is a townie trait.
Did you find any 'smart comments' that were made in the favour of someone looking scummier rather than townier?
VE is an excellent scum player. If you solely find things you think are smart on the side of him defending a townread or making someone else less certain of a read, they're not alignment indicative.
If you can find even a single instance of VE taking a hard stance for reasons he came up with himself this game I'll switch my reads to yours.
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You know, I'm rather miffed that at least 3 (by my recollection) people have not bothered to read VE because of the sheer size of his filter alone, but are happily town-reading him. Change your reads to null if you aren't looking at what he's saying, because that's a more honest read.
I take advantage of this as scum myself when I post a ton of things that basically just do nothing but make people less confident of their reads and rather than challenge them on logical grounds I challenge them on emotional ones. VE, by definition of being a good player, is no stranger to this tactic. For folks who are being actively challenged or only notice at a surface level that the challenges are being made, the pattern of anti-town motivation is not obvious because they aren't looking for it. At least, that's my take.
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If iGrok is town here I'm making the call that the mafia team is VE/rayn/Koshi and they trolled me earlier in the game because I happened to nail them
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On May 24 2019 23:54 VisceraEyes wrote:
You can make whatever call you want, you aren't going to be able to lynch me without strategically killing people in the night and it will be obvious that's what's happening Bugs.
I'm not mafia, and you're never getting me lynched dude, think about something else!
so you do scumread me
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sorry, "scumread" me
VE I nailed on you on a lie about scumreading me and #2495 is probably the single scummiest post anyone has made in this entire game.
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anyway, that's all I'll say for now since I have overstayed my welcome as a passive thread observer and I'm not going to give you the opportunity to kick dirt all over this nice town atmosphere that we have going. Clearly actively lurking too since you have nothing to comment on except my throwaway call about a hypothetical if iGrok flips town.
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On May 24 2019 23:58 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2019 23:56 wherebugsgo wrote:sorry, "scumread" me VE I nailed on you on a lie about scumreading me and #2495 is probably the single scummiest post anyone has made in this entire game. Can you explain it like I'm 5. Why is this post the scummiest in the game?
look at VE's in-thread stated scum reads (or try to remember them off the top of your head) and then look at his day 1 votes. Then also look at where his day 1 vote ended.
Then come back and explain it to me yourself.
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On May 25 2019 00:00 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2019 23:59 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 24 2019 23:58 Holyflare wrote:On May 24 2019 23:56 wherebugsgo wrote:sorry, "scumread" me VE I nailed on you on a lie about scumreading me and #2495 is probably the single scummiest post anyone has made in this entire game. Can you explain it like I'm 5. Why is this post the scummiest in the game? look at VE's in-thread stated scum reads (or try to remember them off the top of your head) and then look at his day 1 votes. Then also look at where his day 1 vote ended. Then come back and explain it to me yourself. Hard pass. Why does this not apply to calix and igrok?
when did I say it does not apply to iGrok? It clearly does, otherwise I 1. wouldn't be voting him, 2. wouldn't have posted several times already corroborating your case and 3. wouldn't try to rebut literally the only surface-level reason stated by anyone (rayn) for townreading iGrok based on his EoD behaviour in #3239
The same logic doesn't apply to Calix because she was defending herself from being lynched.
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"if iGrok is town"
VE:
"this reads as if he knows iGrok is town"
how can you misread a one sentence post that hard
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On May 25 2019 00:07 Holyflare wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2019 00:05 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 25 2019 00:00 Holyflare wrote:On May 24 2019 23:59 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 24 2019 23:58 Holyflare wrote:On May 24 2019 23:56 wherebugsgo wrote:sorry, "scumread" me VE I nailed on you on a lie about scumreading me and #2495 is probably the single scummiest post anyone has made in this entire game. Can you explain it like I'm 5. Why is this post the scummiest in the game? look at VE's in-thread stated scum reads (or try to remember them off the top of your head) and then look at his day 1 votes. Then also look at where his day 1 vote ended. Then come back and explain it to me yourself. Hard pass. Why does this not apply to calix and igrok? when did I say it does not apply to iGrok? It clearly does, otherwise I 1. wouldn't be voting him, 2. wouldn't have posted several times already corroborating your case and 3. wouldn't try to rebut literally the only surface-level reason stated by anyone (rayn) for townreading iGrok based on his EoD behaviour in #3239The same logic doesn't apply to Calix because she was defending herself from being lynched. No, she wasn't. She said she decided to town read igrok at deadline because she saw a townie trait in him (when he said he unvoted her to figure out the game). Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 08:39 Calix wrote:On May 22 2019 08:35 iGrok wrote:
@Calix, you obviously can't read me or don't want to. You're throwing a bunch of extra implications into my statement.
"If it comes down to myself, bc, or rux, I will obviously vote rux." does not mean "I want to vote rux". Give me a fucking break.
I took my vote off you despite knowing that my having put the earlier vote on you would probably be the tiebreaker for the lynch. I did this because I'm just trying to figure the game out, realized I had made a mistake, and fucking owned up to it instead of rolling on ahead ignoring everyone else.
That being said, I'm not a village idiot, I don't want to die today, and I know that I'm at least as likely to be town as BC/Rux because, from my perspective, I'm 100% town. So if that's what it comes down to, yeah I'll vote for either of them in a heartbeat. Holy shit, you bite back. I think I need to sit down for a moment. But in all seriousness, this post actually sounds like a town frustrated at my perceived stubbornness. Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 08:46 Calix wrote:On May 22 2019 08:45 disformation wrote:
aight. lets go.
##Unvote
##Vote: ruXxar Might as well. ##vote Ruxxar Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 09:56 Calix wrote:On May 22 2019 09:50 iGrok wrote:
Still not sure between you and HF, but one of you is scum. Alternatively, HF made a +2 level play and you both are, but that’s... unlikely. Josh I, Convo, disinformation, and rayn are pretty green. I think disinfo is just going with ruxxar to get something done, and the other three votes on him are mixed signals at best. And while I did initially have ruxxar as red, he did make a good post that put him back to null for me. So I’m ok with ruxxar but I’d still rather have a better target if I can.
Outside of you and HF, Artanis is my next lowest read right now, but I don’t think that’s likely to happen. Anyone who thinks it could though, speak up and let’s talk about it What good post did he make and why didn't you mention this earlier? Also I just want to make it clear that I basically saved your arse for another day by voting for ruxxar. I could've easily just told everyone to fuck off and stay on you. And I don't know whether that was the smartest thing I've ever done. So if you could just do things like telling us your Artanis read without prodding, that would be WONDERFUL. Because I'm the only other person in the thread right now.
if you mean "no, she wasn't taking a consistent hard stance" then sure, I agree. If you mean "no, she wasn't defending herself in a town-consistent way," then I disagree.
Her not taking a harder stance on iGrok on d1 is one small piece of evidence that if iGrok is scum, Calix could also be scum. I say it's small though because it does also make sense for Calix to swap the read as town, because she could legitimately have seen something that really made her think iGrok was town at that moment, and based on my ask of her to stop reading VE on "smart" things he's supposedly said, Calix seems to put a lot of weight behind these types of "towntells". I don't agree with this type of logic but it's not like I can prevent other players from using it, especially when it does seem to be a fairly useful heuristic if applied properly and consistently.
I also read Calix's style as seeming to fall into the bucket of players who talk at their scum reads and then will back off if they receive a certain type/level of resistance, because IIRC she did this to me when I was scum against you and Calix last time (the only time?) I played with her.
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On May 25 2019 00:09 VisceraEyes wrote:
Lack of scumreads has never been an accurate way to read me sorry bubby you're just very very wrong here. You aren't even trusting BC, who you're hinging a lot fo your opinions on, you've got fucking blinders on.
You WANT me to be mafia. And sorry baby, but we don't always get what we want.
I have a desire to tally these types of mischaracterisations as they happen and I see them, but unfortunately if I do this the thread will continue to devolve rapidly.
However I will make an exception this once and show everyone how big of a mischaracterisation this is, and how it's not supported by actual hard evidence whatsoever, because I know I am not relying on BC's reads at all this game and haven't really looked to him for any useful info for quite a while now, probably since early-mid D1.
#1. Day 1 BC stated Calix was scum and I never shared this read.
#2. BC put Jock on a watchlist which I misinterpreted as him calling Jock scum and I strongly disagreed with him immediately and never once moved my read closer to BC's. See BC's 448, my response at 449 and BC's counter response at #450
#3. BC scumread Artanis far before I did and my reason for scumreading Artanis was basically completely independent of BC scumreading him. Maybe the knowledge that BC and Artanis were attacking each other and I read BC fairly townish while I had passed on reading Artanis d1 tainted my read but I didn't actually scumread him until after I finished responding to and processing [https://tl.net/forum/mafia/547420-72-24-midnight-sun-mafia?page=129#2571]#2571[/url]
in context of a full read of Artanis in light of his scummy case on me focusing on me misremembering something.
#4. BC kept disformation in scum and conversion in null far longer than I did. To the best of my recollection I was pretty town on conversion by mid d1 and I slowly upgraded disformation over time as I watched his posting. I also never pushed disformation even though I offered him as a lynch candidate, and by the time I offered the candidates to VE I actually townread disformation as well. I have a note from day 1 that VE said we reached opposite reads on disformation/ruxxar after I publically stated that I was townreading disformation, yet he claimed I was calling him scum on the basis of not wanting to consolidate on the same targets I had presented. This made absolutely no sense at the time because the two main consolidation targets I offered were disformation and ruxxar, and if VE reached the opposite conclusion as me on both players he should have voted for disformation. #739 is me publically announcing I don't want to lynch disformation, #769 is me responding to VE saying he doesn't want to consolidate on my targets and that it's not scummy for him to do that, and #969 is VE admitting he came to the opposite conclusion on disformation as me. So if he reached the opposite conclusion on disformation why was he not willing to vote him earlier when I asked?
and yes, as the one thing you haven't mischaracterized, several times now BC has told me that I should townread you and he never managed to convince me because I felt his opinion/feel was incongruent with facts. But now, with all the evidence, it's clear that it's actually more often that I'm disagreeing with BC than agreeing with him. Which is also why he's not particularly high on my townread list either. Higher than you, though, because I can actually rationalise his play from a town perspective and I can't rationalise yours.
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reposting this for visibility and fixing one of the broken links because this post doesn't deserve to get buried by empty one-liners. Back to observer-land for me.
On May 25 2019 00:09 VisceraEyes wrote:
Lack of scumreads has never been an accurate way to read me sorry bubby you're just very very wrong here. You aren't even trusting BC, who you're hinging a lot fo your opinions on, you've got fucking blinders on.
You WANT me to be mafia. And sorry baby, but we don't always get what we want.
I have a desire to tally these types of mischaracterisations as they happen and I see them, but unfortunately if I do this the thread will continue to devolve rapidly.
However I will make an exception this once and show everyone how big of a mischaracterisation this is, and how it's not supported by actual hard evidence whatsoever, because I know I am not relying on BC's reads at all this game and haven't really looked to him for any useful info for quite a while now, probably since early-mid D1.
#1. Day 1 BC stated Calix was scum and I never shared this read.
#2. BC put Jock on a watchlist which I misinterpreted as him calling Jock scum and I strongly disagreed with him immediately and never once moved my read closer to BC's. See BC's 448, my response at 449 and BC's counter response at #450
#3. BC scumread Artanis far before I did and my reason for scumreading Artanis was basically completely independent of BC scumreading him. Maybe the knowledge that BC and Artanis were attacking each other and I read BC fairly townish while I had passed on reading Artanis d1 tainted my read but I didn't actually scumread him until after I finished responding to and processing #2571 in context of a full read of Artanis in light of his scummy case on me focusing on me misremembering something.
#4. BC kept disformation in scum and conversion in null far longer than I did. To the best of my recollection I was pretty town on conversion by mid d1 and I slowly upgraded disformation over time as I watched his posting. I also never pushed disformation even though I offered him as a lynch candidate, and by the time I offered the candidates to VE I actually townread disformation as well. I have a note from day 1 that VE said we reached opposite reads on disformation/ruxxar after I publically stated that I was townreading disformation, yet he claimed I was calling him scum on the basis of not wanting to consolidate on the same targets I had presented. This made absolutely no sense at the time because the two main consolidation targets I offered were disformation and ruxxar, and if VE reached the opposite conclusion as me on both players he should have voted for disformation. #739 is me publically announcing I don't want to lynch disformation, #769 is me responding to VE saying he doesn't want to consolidate on my targets and that it's not scummy for him to do that, and #969 is VE admitting he came to the opposite conclusion on disformation as me. So if he reached the opposite conclusion on disformation why was he not willing to vote him earlier when I asked?
and yes, as the one thing you haven't mischaracterized, several times now BC has told me that I should townread you and he never managed to convince me because I felt his opinion/feel was incongruent with facts. But now, with all the evidence, it's clear that it's actually more often that I'm disagreeing with BC than agreeing with him. Which is also why he's not particularly high on my townread list either. Higher than you, though, because I can actually rationalise his play from a town perspective and I can't rationalise yours.
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On May 25 2019 01:00 Calix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2019 00:57 disformation wrote:On May 25 2019 00:46 Calix wrote:Good talk, disfo and Koshi. Since you two are either paranoid of me or think I'm 'mafia', fancy making some sort of case? Asking some questions? Or in Koshi's case, pushing me so that I die over 'obvtown' iGrok  yeah, not 100% sure about your alignment. still think you are less likely scum than grok, art, bc. your reads look reasonable to me. and unless a bunch of other guys you actually play when you are here. Okay why are you not '100% sure'? Because it's getting annoying having people whine about how I might be mafia yet never doing anything to fix that.
I think you should stop defending yourself.
I really don't think defending yourself at this point is helping anyone read you. In fact, it's making it harder for me to maintain a read on you because you defend yourself so much even now when you are under no lynch pressure that it completely overshadows your reads. I have to struggle to recall your reads when more than half your posts are like this.
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On May 25 2019 01:06 Conversion wrote:ok read HF's case. cool case. Show nested quote +On May 22 2019 09:50 iGrok wrote:
Still not sure between you and HF, but one of you is scum. Alternatively, HF made a +2 level play and you both are, but that’s... unlikely. Josh I, Convo, disinformation, and rayn are pretty green. I think disinfo is just going with ruxxar to get something done, and the other three votes on him are mixed signals at best. And while I did initially have ruxxar as red, he did make a good post that put him back to null for me. So I’m ok with ruxxar but I’d still rather have a better target if I can.
Outside of you and HF, Artanis is my next lowest read right now, but I don’t think that’s likely to happen. Anyone who thinks it could though, speak up and let’s talk about it one thing that I don't like about iGrok is that he shows that he has thoughts about the game outside of Calix/HF. right there. Artanis is his lowest read, outside of them. He later admits that the HF lynch won't happen, but he still ends up voting HF. weird. now this day, Artanis has a pretty good momentum going for him, and he mentioned that since he knows he's 100% town, he'll vote people to save himself. But he keeps staying on HF??? Why isn't he spending time to case someone else and tunnels onto HF like it's going to get him anywhere, when he says in his filter himself that lynching HF won't get anywhere. why does he think it's going to get him anywhere now?
unless you are about to whip out a townread on iGrok your time is better spent just voting him (look at the state of the game) and then talking about other things while you wait for iGrok to maybe come back and explain himself. Let iGrok defend himself before we continue to pretend like it's surprising that he's doing X scummy thing. My suggestion to you would be to finally get down to reading VE/rayn/artanis/BC properly and probably revisit your Koshi read and see if what you thought was scummy on d1 still applies today, keeping in mind to completely forget whatever you said about him calling you town or whatever because you already tainted the thread with that piece of information.
Anyway, I'm off to bed for real now.
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On May 25 2019 01:12 Conversion wrote:
damn son, bugs going hard. TAINTED the thread with that information. I’m the poison killing town’s suspicions on Koshi my dudes
not sure if you're joking or being serious so I'll take you for srs just in case :p
by tainted the thread I mean Koshi and his team saw what you said and he's probably adjusted by now if he's scum
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On May 25 2019 01:13 Calix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2019 01:04 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 25 2019 01:00 Calix wrote:On May 25 2019 00:57 disformation wrote:On May 25 2019 00:46 Calix wrote:Good talk, disfo and Koshi. Since you two are either paranoid of me or think I'm 'mafia', fancy making some sort of case? Asking some questions? Or in Koshi's case, pushing me so that I die over 'obvtown' iGrok yeah, not 100% sure about your alignment. still think you are less likely scum than grok, art, bc. your reads look reasonable to me. and unless a bunch of other guys you actually play when you are here. Okay why are you not '100% sure'? Because it's getting annoying having people whine about how I might be mafia yet never doing anything to fix that. I think you should stop defending yourself. I really don't think defending yourself at this point is helping anyone read you. In fact, it's making it harder for me to maintain a read on you because you defend yourself so much even now when you are under no lynch pressure that it completely overshadows your reads. I have to struggle to recall your reads when more than half your posts are like this. I am just trying to get people to clear up their reads on me while this game is in a lull, not defending myself. And while I could try getting Koshi to do something, I don't think that'll get me very far. I feel like game is on pause because thread sentiment is so against iGrok that he's almost certainly going to die today unless he comes at us with a townie post. Which I doubt. Trying to push someone else won't do a lot because that person knows they're unlikely to die today.
You could do what you are dreading and actually read VE, or at the very least read the posts I've made about VE because solving the game is more useful than sitting on your hands.
I don't understand why you think you need to get Koshi to do more in order to get a better read on him when he's played like this for five IRL days and there is no sign of him stopping any time soon
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omg I shouldn’t be awake right now. I have a class in 6 hours and it’s all humid and hot in here. Hate this season in Japan and it’s only beginning
iGrok if you are town you need to do a better job of explaining yourself. You’re still getting lynched at this rate because I can’t even read your blurry images so to me it seems like you don’t want people to read what you’ve written, if indeed you have spent some effort on the game. I can’t see a town motivation for that so if you can’t even do the common courtesy of copy pasting that into the thread then there is 0 chance of anyone moving their vote on you.
I’m going to do something heroic and at least temporarily promote both Artanis and BC to townies so that I can get their opinions here.
@Artanis[Xp] and @BloodyC0bbler:
I know you’re both short on time and actually oddly enough this is why I really value both of your opinions at this stage in the game.
1. To BC: do you agree with the case on iGrok?
2. To both of you: can you again provide a list of all your reads?
3. I would appreciate if you take a moment to let me know what your recollection is of VE, rayn, and Koshi reading each other, when they reached said reads, and what led them to read each other in said way. Please give both your gut read based on memory and then whatever you can support with evidence.
Also if you can comment on whether you’ve ever noticed any of the three of them have a constructive discussion with you or a townread of yours. By constructive, I mean an interaction where the player does not simply shoot down an idea, but instead either 1.) builds on it or 2.) asks a clarifying question when there is a clear disagreement. 10,000 arbitrary bonus points for either of these two scenarios: a follow up on a question and an unprompted, proactive question about a read that the player holds. Final caveat: anything to the other two does not count.
Please write your response before reading the spoiler below.
+ Show Spoiler +I find it hilarious that VE and Koshi both basically instantly started distancing each other and VE started distancing rayn when I mentioned a second time the possibility of a VE/rayn/Koshi scum team. This actually happened for a brief moment by VE on both of them right around when Jock became confirmed god-town and then presumably stopped when no one actually scumread rayn in the aftermath. + Show Spoiler +
I can guarantee the three of you that if even one of you is scum, you’re going to have to kill me in the next half cycle or you will be lynched. and if you are scum together, distancing or bussing each other at this point is futile because I have seen everything. The three of you have ridden each other’s dicks for 95% of the game so far and if you stop now when iGrok is still the lynch and no one is moving votes, you have TMI. Koshi I see you scumming HF, calling me bad and getting prepared to move to iGrok when you’ve now realized what I’m up to and that defending iGrok now is an indication of TMI. We are lynching iGrok today, and you know that if he flips town, I will never lynch HF.
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On May 25 2019 04:00 iGrok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2019 03:56 wherebugsgo wrote:
iGrok if you are town you need to do a better job of explaining yourself. You’re still getting lynched at this rate because I can’t even read your blurry images so to me it seems like you don’t want people to read what you’ve written, if indeed you have spent some effort on the game. I can’t see a town motivation for that so if you can’t even do the common courtesy of copy pasting that into the thread then there is 0 chance of anyone moving their vote on you.
Copy/pasting breaks all the formatting and leaves it illegible. I tried that originally, didn't work. Sorry. If you click on the image, it'll take you to the imgur site where you can see it full size. You may need to click it on their site to fully zoom in, but I promise its completely legible. Sorry but I'm just not going to format something twice. Show nested quote +On May 25 2019 03:56 wherebugsgo wrote:
We are lynching iGrok today, and you know that if he flips town, I will never lynch HF.
This doesn't make any sense.
Good. It only makes sense to mafia who have TMI.
Every townie in the game barring you if you are actually town should have agreed with the case on you.
VE rayn and Koshi have had all the “correct” reads and literally 0 reasons. It basically feels like they are all channeling Grackaroni from last game.
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EPT
