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[M][N] Medic Mafia - Page 2

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30774 Posts
February 18 2018 18:10 GMT
#21
Like lynching a split wagon and you get instant n1 information of what happened. You can say "but that's what happens if there is a vig" but it's not really because in that situation it's a one shot vig and that person is confirmed and on top of having that vig one of them can heal a top town person if they so choose. Then if none of the medics die (and they can claim and that's 3 confirmed townies(!!!)) there's another night of the same exact thing happening.

Basically it's too many confirmed town + too much information given + too anti mafia imo.
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-18 18:16:46
February 18 2018 18:16 GMT
#22
Wait... you mean if a townie gets lynched D1 you shoot the opposing wagon right? Idk what you mean by the confirmed town stuff.

Mafia can always cc medics.
table for two on a tv tray
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
February 18 2018 18:17 GMT
#23
I mean, if i was mafia and three medics claimed let's say D1 i would have 2 mafia to claim medic too. :D
table for two on a tv tray
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
February 18 2018 18:29 GMT
#24
Let me try to break this down from mafia perspective:
On February 19 2018 03:10 Holyflare wrote:
Like lynching a split wagon and you get instant n1 information of what happened.

Do you mean you technically have 2 lynches D1 unless you lynch mafia (with N1 assured vigi shot)?
I don't think this is imba, it is just swingy.
You can say "but that's what happens if there is a vig" but it's not really because in that situation it's a one shot vig and that person is confirmed

I don't understand why
and on top of having that vig one of them can heal a top town person if they so choose.

not really if you CC smart as scum
Then if none of the medics die (and they can claim and that's 3 confirmed townies(!!!)) there's another night of the same exact thing happening.

see above.

Basically it's too many confirmed town + too much information given + too anti mafia imo.

it is not because cc's + can you elaborate? + idk if it is until you elaborate.
table for two on a tv tray
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
21973 Posts
February 18 2018 18:37 GMT
#25
/in
Skynx
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
Turkey7150 Posts
February 18 2018 20:05 GMT
#26
Game can be won n2 by either alignment even with a mislynch on their side. Stats brought to you by opta Sky.

"When seagulls follow the troller, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea. Thank you very much" - King Cantona | STX 4 eva
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30774 Posts
February 18 2018 21:48 GMT
#27
Lol 2 mafia ccing and your lynch pool is narrowed down to 5 people in a 13 player game.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30774 Posts
February 18 2018 21:48 GMT
#28
Basically this is a cc game that requires high skill mafia to be able to talk their way out of a claim game.
Calix
Profile Joined August 2016
3379 Posts
February 18 2018 22:15 GMT
#29
On February 19 2018 06:48 Holyflare wrote:
Basically this is a cc game that requires high skill mafia to be able to talk their way out of a claim game.


Out of curiosity, do you think rsoultin's suggestion would assist in making it less town-sided? If not, how could it be changed in your view?

I would disagree with the strategy of all the doctors claiming given that the mafia can neutralise two of them with the Roleblocker/ night kill and, depending on the situation, might not need to counter-claim. If it is mid-to-late game or if the Roleblocker dies early then claiming becomes a good strategy but the odds of mafia not getting a single Doctor lynched/ killed by that point are low.

The setup has worked on mafiascum to the best of my knowledge. From what I read, they discussed removing the Roleblocker from the setup but I figured that was not a wise decision. It is just one of those games that resolves itself very quickly. However there is a different site meta on TL Mafia which this setup has not necessarily accounted for.

I agree that it would demand a certain level of competence from the mafia. This reminds me a bit of the discussion about the "I'm the Cop you idiot" games, actually, since both require the mafia to be proactive or for town to turn on each other.

If I have missed something then do let me know since we seem to have differing views on how suitable this game is.
Holyflare
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United Kingdom30774 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-18 22:20:59
February 18 2018 22:20 GMT
#30
Nah, I think it's a not awful setup and people are correct that it's very very swingy if people don't plan around it but it's just not my type of game. I think any game that requires mafia to have some kind of strategy that involves competence and setting up fake claims is inevitably harder for mafia, especially when this forum contains people that are working and don't have time to fully spend on the game.

If it helps I hate I'm a cop too
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
February 19 2018 00:01 GMT
#31
On February 19 2018 07:15 Calix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2018 06:48 Holyflare wrote:
Basically this is a cc game that requires high skill mafia to be able to talk their way out of a claim game.


Out of curiosity, do you think rsoultin's suggestion would assist in making it less town-sided? If not, how could it be changed in your view?

I would disagree with the strategy of all the doctors claiming given that the mafia can neutralise two of them with the Roleblocker/ night kill and, depending on the situation, might not need to counter-claim. If it is mid-to-late game or if the Roleblocker dies early then claiming becomes a good strategy but the odds of mafia not getting a single Doctor lynched/ killed by that point are low.

The setup has worked on mafiascum to the best of my knowledge. From what I read, they discussed removing the Roleblocker from the setup but I figured that was not a wise decision. It is just one of those games that resolves itself very quickly. However there is a different site meta on TL Mafia which this setup has not necessarily accounted for.

I agree that it would demand a certain level of competence from the mafia. This reminds me a bit of the discussion about the "I'm the Cop you idiot" games, actually, since both require the mafia to be proactive or for town to turn on each other.

If I have missed something then do let me know since we seem to have differing views on how suitable this game is.

I wouldn't count on Mafiascum balance because they have no idea how to balance games anyways, basically just given their length of day phases their games are horribly town-sided regardless of the setup, even with silent nights (which they usually have).

You always need to counter-claim as mafia when there is 3 medics alive. Basically you never wanna have confirmed townies running around in the thread even if you could neutralise them the next night (which you can't -- it is gonna take at least 2 nights) because you just lose the game like 95% if the medics happen to be anywhere near competitive. It is debateable if to cc with 1 or 2 mafia, but you always need to cc.

I understand what Holyflare says but i think he is looking tha game at a little different perspective than i am and his argument is mostly based on that mafia plays bad. You will lose the game as mafia regardless of the setup if you play bad. It is true that this is (necessarily) a claim game, but that doesn't mean it is imbalanced. It just requires different a bit strengths than a normal game because you have -- in a claim situation -- pools of players where you know the number of scum existing. You just make reads in a bit different way.

If you want to make the game more mafia friendly, add another roleblocker for mafia to prevent medic massclaim on D1. I personally don't think that's a problem but i am not all the people.
table for two on a tv tray
rsoultin
Profile Blog Joined November 2014
Netherlands15308 Posts
February 19 2018 05:34 GMT
#32
Well, you know, it's kinda objectively town-favored if both sides play intelligently, to my thinking.

As long as you have at least two town medics you can effectively have a night lynch with nothing mafia can do about it unless they succesfully blue hunt and rb.

If people don't play intelligently yes it's swingy. And of course mafia can still win by looking townier than a lot of town players.

I just feel like the baseline is in town's favor. Thus the odds and evens suggestion that I feel would be harder for town medics to play around. But I'm still fine with trying it out as is
"rsoultin: Mafia Suicide Inducer...you have unlimited shots because you are so god-damn relentless." - marvellosity (2015)
rsoultin
Profile Blog Joined November 2014
Netherlands15308 Posts
February 19 2018 05:34 GMT
#33
A second rb probably is not a good idea.
"rsoultin: Mafia Suicide Inducer...you have unlimited shots because you are so god-damn relentless." - marvellosity (2015)
prplhz
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Denmark8045 Posts
February 19 2018 08:21 GMT
#34
what about making it a no flip game
http://i.imgur.com/M7t7egx.png
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
21973 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-19 09:22:09
February 19 2018 09:21 GMT
#35
On February 19 2018 17:21 prplhz wrote:
what about making it a no flip game


That'd become a shitfest.

Good idea!

(no sarcasm)
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
February 19 2018 09:28 GMT
#36
On February 19 2018 14:34 rsoultin wrote:
A second rb probably is not a good idea.

Idk why? You'd still have to guess 2 blues and hit with both rbs to prevent the vigi shot.

I think the odd - even suggestion you made makes the game random fest.
table for two on a tv tray
rsoultin
Profile Blog Joined November 2014
Netherlands15308 Posts
February 19 2018 10:27 GMT
#37
On February 19 2018 18:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2018 14:34 rsoultin wrote:
A second rb probably is not a good idea.

Idk why? You'd still have to guess 2 blues and hit with both rbs to prevent the vigi shot.

I think the odd - even suggestion you made makes the game random fest.

I suppose it prevents claiming to some extent to have two roleblockers, but that is really the extent of its usefulness imo.

And yes, my suggestion randomizes it. You're correct. But it also means one thing that you're missing: the vig shot can't be coordinated in thread.

If multiple medics = death you can openly coordinate in thread and expect the town medics to use their 'saves' as a lynch.

If odd medics = save, then three medics on one person is not a vig shot, and mafia can decide whether or not to make it one. This is similar with two medics on one person...mafia can choose to save or kill an openly coordinated medic target.

My suggestion is meant to prevent town from organizing night lynches, or at least make it harder. No more, no less.

Otherwise medics can vig whoever they want without claiming.
"rsoultin: Mafia Suicide Inducer...you have unlimited shots because you are so god-damn relentless." - marvellosity (2015)
Skynx
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
Turkey7150 Posts
February 19 2018 10:27 GMT
#38
Lets throw in there allowed PM's aswell and this will be an all out brawl
"When seagulls follow the troller, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea. Thank you very much" - King Cantona | STX 4 eva
raynpelikoneet
Profile Joined April 2007
Finland43268 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-19 12:53:41
February 19 2018 12:53 GMT
#39
On February 19 2018 19:27 rsoultin wrote:
I suppose it prevents claiming to some extent to have two roleblockers, but that is really the extent of its usefulness imo.

And yes, my suggestion randomizes it. You're correct. But it also means one thing that you're missing: the vig shot can't be coordinated in thread.

If multiple medics = death you can openly coordinate in thread and expect the town medics to use their 'saves' as a lynch.

If odd medics = save, then three medics on one person is not a vig shot, and mafia can decide whether or not to make it one. This is similar with two medics on one person...mafia can choose to save or kill an openly coordinated medic target.

The problem with the odd-even suggestion imo is that the best play is to just not use medics at all (since youre more likely to get fucked by mafia medic in case you try to coordinate something -- or town medic(s) if you don't coordinate) until mafia medic is dead, and imo it kinda defeats the idea of the game.

I don't really understand how having a (coordinated) "unlimited shot vigi" is imba, because it really isn't. It is just a night lynch which you can decide to use or not to use. If you lynch mafia people you win, if not, you lose, just like in normal lynches. Like if you have a vigilante in the game does it make the vigi role imba that townies can say who they want the vigilante to kill? It doesn't.
table for two on a tv tray
rsoultin
Profile Blog Joined November 2014
Netherlands15308 Posts
February 19 2018 14:12 GMT
#40
On February 19 2018 21:53 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2018 19:27 rsoultin wrote:
I suppose it prevents claiming to some extent to have two roleblockers, but that is really the extent of its usefulness imo.

And yes, my suggestion randomizes it. You're correct. But it also means one thing that you're missing: the vig shot can't be coordinated in thread.

If multiple medics = death you can openly coordinate in thread and expect the town medics to use their 'saves' as a lynch.

If odd medics = save, then three medics on one person is not a vig shot, and mafia can decide whether or not to make it one. This is similar with two medics on one person...mafia can choose to save or kill an openly coordinated medic target.

The problem with the odd-even suggestion imo is that the best play is to just not use medics at all (since youre more likely to get fucked by mafia medic in case you try to coordinate something -- or town medic(s) if you don't coordinate) until mafia medic is dead, and imo it kinda defeats the idea of the game.

I don't really understand how having a (coordinated) "unlimited shot vigi" is imba, because it really isn't. It is just a night lynch which you can decide to use or not to use. If you lynch mafia people you win, if not, you lose, just like in normal lynches. Like if you have a vigilante in the game does it make the vigi role imba that townies can say who they want the vigilante to kill? It doesn't.


-shrugs- I doubt we'll agree, Joni.

I've lost interest in this argument entirely, sorry. We'll just have to see how it goes.
"rsoultin: Mafia Suicide Inducer...you have unlimited shots because you are so god-damn relentless." - marvellosity (2015)
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