EPTBasically it's too many confirmed town + too much information given + too anti mafia imo.
[M][N] Medic Mafia - Page 2
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
Basically it's too many confirmed town + too much information given + too anti mafia imo. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
Mafia can always cc medics. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On February 19 2018 03:10 Holyflare wrote: Like lynching a split wagon and you get instant n1 information of what happened. Do you mean you technically have 2 lynches D1 unless you lynch mafia (with N1 assured vigi shot)? I don't think this is imba, it is just swingy. You can say "but that's what happens if there is a vig" but it's not really because in that situation it's a one shot vig and that person is confirmed I don't understand why and on top of having that vig one of them can heal a top town person if they so choose. not really if you CC smart as scum Then if none of the medics die (and they can claim and that's 3 confirmed townies(!!!)) there's another night of the same exact thing happening. see above. Basically it's too many confirmed town + too much information given + too anti mafia imo. it is not because cc's + can you elaborate? + idk if it is until you elaborate.  | ||
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Vivax
22416 Posts
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
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Calix
3379 Posts
On February 19 2018 06:48 Holyflare wrote: Basically this is a cc game that requires high skill mafia to be able to talk their way out of a claim game. Out of curiosity, do you think rsoultin's suggestion would assist in making it less town-sided? If not, how could it be changed in your view? I would disagree with the strategy of all the doctors claiming given that the mafia can neutralise two of them with the Roleblocker/ night kill and, depending on the situation, might not need to counter-claim. If it is mid-to-late game or if the Roleblocker dies early then claiming becomes a good strategy but the odds of mafia not getting a single Doctor lynched/ killed by that point are low. The setup has worked on mafiascum to the best of my knowledge. From what I read, they discussed removing the Roleblocker from the setup but I figured that was not a wise decision. It is just one of those games that resolves itself very quickly. However there is a different site meta on TL Mafia which this setup has not necessarily accounted for. I agree that it would demand a certain level of competence from the mafia. This reminds me a bit of the discussion about the "I'm the Cop you idiot" games, actually, since both require the mafia to be proactive or for town to turn on each other. If I have missed something then do let me know since we seem to have differing views on how suitable this game is. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
If it helps I hate I'm a cop too  | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On February 19 2018 07:15 Calix wrote: Out of curiosity, do you think rsoultin's suggestion would assist in making it less town-sided? If not, how could it be changed in your view? I would disagree with the strategy of all the doctors claiming given that the mafia can neutralise two of them with the Roleblocker/ night kill and, depending on the situation, might not need to counter-claim. If it is mid-to-late game or if the Roleblocker dies early then claiming becomes a good strategy but the odds of mafia not getting a single Doctor lynched/ killed by that point are low. The setup has worked on mafiascum to the best of my knowledge. From what I read, they discussed removing the Roleblocker from the setup but I figured that was not a wise decision. It is just one of those games that resolves itself very quickly. However there is a different site meta on TL Mafia which this setup has not necessarily accounted for. I agree that it would demand a certain level of competence from the mafia. This reminds me a bit of the discussion about the "I'm the Cop you idiot" games, actually, since both require the mafia to be proactive or for town to turn on each other. If I have missed something then do let me know since we seem to have differing views on how suitable this game is. I wouldn't count on Mafiascum balance because they have no idea how to balance games anyways, basically just given their length of day phases their games are horribly town-sided regardless of the setup, even with silent nights (which they usually have). You always need to counter-claim as mafia when there is 3 medics alive. Basically you never wanna have confirmed townies running around in the thread even if you could neutralise them the next night (which you can't -- it is gonna take at least 2 nights) because you just lose the game like 95% if the medics happen to be anywhere near competitive. It is debateable if to cc with 1 or 2 mafia, but you always need to cc. I understand what Holyflare says but i think he is looking tha game at a little different perspective than i am and his argument is mostly based on that mafia plays bad. You will lose the game as mafia regardless of the setup if you play bad. It is true that this is (necessarily) a claim game, but that doesn't mean it is imbalanced. It just requires different a bit strengths than a normal game because you have -- in a claim situation -- pools of players where you know the number of scum existing. You just make reads in a bit different way. If you want to make the game more mafia friendly, add another roleblocker for mafia to prevent medic massclaim on D1. I personally don't think that's a problem but i am not all the people. | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
As long as you have at least two town medics you can effectively have a night lynch with nothing mafia can do about it unless they succesfully blue hunt and rb. If people don't play intelligently yes it's swingy. And of course mafia can still win by looking townier than a lot of town players. I just feel like the baseline is in town's favor. Thus the odds and evens suggestion that I feel would be harder for town medics to play around. But I'm still fine with trying it out as is | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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Vivax
22416 Posts
On February 19 2018 17:21 prplhz wrote: what about making it a no flip game That'd become a shitfest. Good idea! (no sarcasm) | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On February 19 2018 14:34 rsoultin wrote: A second rb probably is not a good idea. Idk why? You'd still have to guess 2 blues and hit with both rbs to prevent the vigi shot. I think the odd - even suggestion you made makes the game random fest. | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
On February 19 2018 18:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: Idk why? You'd still have to guess 2 blues and hit with both rbs to prevent the vigi shot. I think the odd - even suggestion you made makes the game random fest. I suppose it prevents claiming to some extent to have two roleblockers, but that is really the extent of its usefulness imo. And yes, my suggestion randomizes it. You're correct. But it also means one thing that you're missing: the vig shot can't be coordinated in thread. If multiple medics = death you can openly coordinate in thread and expect the town medics to use their 'saves' as a lynch. If odd medics = save, then three medics on one person is not a vig shot, and mafia can decide whether or not to make it one. This is similar with two medics on one person...mafia can choose to save or kill an openly coordinated medic target. My suggestion is meant to prevent town from organizing night lynches, or at least make it harder. No more, no less. Otherwise medics can vig whoever they want without claiming. | ||
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
On February 19 2018 19:27 rsoultin wrote: I suppose it prevents claiming to some extent to have two roleblockers, but that is really the extent of its usefulness imo. And yes, my suggestion randomizes it. You're correct. But it also means one thing that you're missing: the vig shot can't be coordinated in thread. If multiple medics = death you can openly coordinate in thread and expect the town medics to use their 'saves' as a lynch. If odd medics = save, then three medics on one person is not a vig shot, and mafia can decide whether or not to make it one. This is similar with two medics on one person...mafia can choose to save or kill an openly coordinated medic target. The problem with the odd-even suggestion imo is that the best play is to just not use medics at all (since youre more likely to get fucked by mafia medic in case you try to coordinate something -- or town medic(s) if you don't coordinate) until mafia medic is dead, and imo it kinda defeats the idea of the game. I don't really understand how having a (coordinated) "unlimited shot vigi" is imba, because it really isn't. It is just a night lynch which you can decide to use or not to use. If you lynch mafia people you win, if not, you lose, just like in normal lynches. Like if you have a vigilante in the game does it make the vigi role imba that townies can say who they want the vigilante to kill? It doesn't. | ||
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rsoultin
Netherlands15308 Posts
On February 19 2018 21:53 raynpelikoneet wrote: The problem with the odd-even suggestion imo is that the best play is to just not use medics at all (since youre more likely to get fucked by mafia medic in case you try to coordinate something -- or town medic(s) if you don't coordinate) until mafia medic is dead, and imo it kinda defeats the idea of the game. I don't really understand how having a (coordinated) "unlimited shot vigi" is imba, because it really isn't. It is just a night lynch which you can decide to use or not to use. If you lynch mafia people you win, if not, you lose, just like in normal lynches. Like if you have a vigilante in the game does it make the vigi role imba that townies can say who they want the vigilante to kill? It doesn't. -shrugs- I doubt we'll agree, Joni. I've lost interest in this argument entirely, sorry. We'll just have to see how it goes. | ||
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