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Newbie Student Mafia XVII: Fullmetal Edition - Page 6

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 18 2015 23:51 GMT
#1135
FarahBlackwing, what do you think about Fecalfeast right now?
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 18 2015 23:58 GMT
#1137
On November 19 2015 03:45 FarahBlackwing wrote:
Confirmed Town:
Scott
Farah

I think They Are Town:
Shining
Geript
Moos
NocturneMage

I thought they were town now they are falling
VE
Eversince
Ritoky

Not Sure
Disformation
Breshke
Trfel

Good Chance of Scum
FF

I haven't done much research this game like I did last game, Ritoky could move into the Not sure and so could VE. Ever I hope comes back. And its still forming a bit and the game is rather hard at this juncture.
This post was made 15 minutes before the deadline.

On November 19 2015 05:06 FarahBlackwing wrote:
Ok,

##vote breshke

claim vigilante
Six minutes after the deadline.

Breshke and Fecalfeast both did not make any posts in between. There is zero reason for FarahBlackwing's read to change.

This is the only piece of scumhunting that FarahBlackwing has done today, if you call it that. She's made a ton of posts trying to find the vigilante, and a ton of posts saying that she isn't going to explain anything or work with anyone. But no time to actually find scum. Or perhaps more accurately, no desire to actually find scum.

I can't really see how there is any doubt.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 00:00 GMT
#1139
On November 19 2015 08:58 Fecalfeast wrote:
I can't say I'm tunneled on you trfel but right now that's where my brain is. I've only just been in your filter and i will take a closer look later. I've still got shit to do right now tho
So do I, stupid exams.

Please answer my question here as soon as you get a chance.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 00:11 GMT
#1141
On November 19 2015 09:00 FarahBlackwing wrote:
Trfel also doesn't show that I did want to lynch Breske yesterday before I got cold feet. Breshke was geript top scum read and a few posts later I felt ff was the vigilante.

This explanation is completely false.

Saying that Fecalfeast is scum and being unsure about Breshke and then voting for Breshke is fine. The problem is that FarahBlackwing never bothered to post the reasons that Breshke is mafia. Today, she's said "the vigilante is stupid for not claiming" and "I'm not going to cooperate", but she hasn't said "I think that this person is mafia, and here is why".

There's no new thought that FarahBlackwing arrived at to explain how she got to a scumread of Breshke. The read change is completely made up.

Also, FarahBlackwing's suspicions of Fecalfeast being the vigilante had nothing to do with this at all, as shown by her asking for the vigilante to claim in the same post where she voted for Breshke.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 01:28 GMT
#1149
On November 19 2015 09:58 NocturneMage wrote:
also post 1129, Trfel is using the word malicious as in mafia agenda. Not that you were insulting, but your play is mafia play.
This is completely true, I didn't realize that it was assumed the opposite. I'm sorry.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 01:37 GMT
#1153
How did you arrive at FarahBlackwing being town?
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 02:09 GMT
#1163
If Eversince is gone for much longer, I'm guessing that she would be replaced. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I really hope that all is well with the surgery.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 16:20 GMT
#1204
That's so much work compared to what it's worth....

I don't use meta that much, honestly.

My read on scott31337 wasn't really a meta read. My read was, scott31337 isn't trying to solve the game, therefore he's mafia. The only real "meta" part of this read is that scott31337 tries to solve the game as town (if he didn't he would probably be on the ban list).

The rest of the read was just explanations and bonus, the above is the core read.

I need to go to class in a few minutes, don't know what to think about Damdred yet, but it's probably best to give him some time.

##unvote

I definitely need to re-evaluate Breshke and disinformation, I'll do that soon I hope. Exam tomorrow, though, which I really really really really need to study for T.T

One more thing, about Eversince, it's not really that I want to try and guess what the hosts will do, but I just don't feel there is enough information to try and read Eversince (especially given that she was likely on drugs when she was posting). I don't even want to try to read her because it seems like a hopeless task.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 16:30 GMT
#1207
I have no clue what you are even trying to accomplish, I could spend all day showing all of the different flaws in that "reasoning".

Can you summarize what points you're trying to make, so I can actually figure out what you're trying to say?

I think you're trying to compare my reads with geript's reads, because geript is flipped town which makes him 100% right. So if I'm town, and I have enough experience, my reads should be the same. Well, this is false, because geript and I are different players and we play differently. We have different opinions on a lot of things and that's simply what works. Geript has this entire "meta sheet" that he used for his reads and I have nothing like that.

One example of this is shown in geript's read of The Shining. Geript really disliked FarahBlackwing's townread of The Shining, which I really liked. Look at the obs qt for Battle of the Drams mafia, you can see Damdred and I discussing how to read The Shining for a bit, which is very similar to what FarahBlackwing said. And it's the same as what Damdred said in this game.

As for my experience with Breshke, look at Noir Mafia Chapter 3. Breshke was on the lynch table for the entire game. That game, he played below his expectations as town. He doesn't always play his very best (let's be honest, no one does).

Don't have time to try and piece through what you're saying in the rest of this, but you're not even addressing the arguments that I've made this game. How can you attempt to say what I "should have known" without looking at my reasoning?
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 16:32 GMT
#1208
Never mind, not going to class, I'm likely still contagious

I'll try to answer a little more clearly.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 17:35 GMT
#1209
A response to NocturneMage

On scott31337
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2015 01:20 NocturneMage wrote:
Part 1 of 3: Trfel's expectation on Scott
posted previously - link below with previous questions
part 1: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497023-newbie-student-mafia-xvii-fullmetal-edition?page=60#1198
geript's initial callout: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497023-newbie-student-mafia-xvii-fullmetal-edition?page=60#1195
I believe that the argument is that I have played enough times with scott31337 that I "should have known his meta better".

The only thing that NocturneMage actually mentioned is quoting a geript post, the relevant parts below:
  • Scott31337's activity being awful is not alignment indicative
  • Trfel is only attacking scott31337 for one post
  • Trfel is picking at minor things that aren't alignment indicative (specifically, scott31337 not taking a stance on Trfel)
As to the first point, I agree. My reasons to scumread scott31337 were not based on activity. Again, all town players who are actually trying to solve the game should have that desire to solve the game show through in their posts. It would require a deliberate effort to try and solve the game but keep that desire out of your posts, you'd have to basically never explain any reads ever.

I didn't attack one post of scott31337's, my reasons for scumreading him were based on his entire filter. I never actually presented a complete case on scott31337, as I thought that his filter spoke for itself.

I've demonstrated why the things I brought up are important. For reference, here is my most comprehensive case on scott31337:
On November 18 2015 04:52 Trfel wrote:
Quick Summary of scott31337's Filter

Here's the reads summary of scott31337's first post.
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2015 00:47 scott31337 wrote:
Trfel and Moosy would be my top lynches right now - Eversince 3rd - I'm just not seeing that town spark with all the posting.

I thought Breshke's first post asking questions was okay but then fell off.

Ritoky/VE/Geript top towns

NM/FBW/The Shining not lynching right now but want to see more

Breshke/FF in the meh category

##Vote: Trfel
Why is the "not lynching right now but want to see more" category even included?

The reasoning is very lacking. "I'm not seeing the spark" for Eversince's posting, but just read any one Eversince post, it's very obviously pointed and shows a unique mindset. This is a really useless phrase and I don't understand how this is true.

Show nested quote +
On November 17 2015 05:54 scott31337 wrote:
On November 17 2015 05:05 Trfel wrote:
VisceraEyes (again)
Note: Eversince will be addressed in a following post

1. On Eversince and FarahBlackwing
Eversince's initial post, voting for The Shining
On November 16 2015 05:13 Eversince wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:04 FarahBlackwing wrote:
Hello. I think the proper use of our time is

##vote shining

Statistically it has to be time


100% townread based on nothing last game I play with you.


Last game: Farah town, hard read based on not much, Shining obvious town.
This game: Farah ?, Shining mafia.

180 in gameplay = 180 in alignment

Obviously mafia.

##vote: Farahblackwing

Soooo mafia. Lynch today!
Eversince's later post explaining the clear flaw in the above argument:
On November 16 2015 06:30 Eversince wrote:
To clarify, The Shining lurked bad last game I played with.
Farah town reads him regardless.

This game, Farah mafia reads The Shining.
He had not even posted yet.

Yeh! It's completely different play! Buggers! Sorry for pointin' it out!

VisceraEyes responds to this is a way that doesn't make sense at all.

Before my case on VisceraEyes and the second post above from Eversince, VisceraEyes posted these posts:
On November 16 2015 05:33 VisceraEyes wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:13 Eversince wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:04 FarahBlackwing wrote:
Hello. I think the proper use of our time is

##vote shining

Statistically it has to be time


100% townread based on nothing last game I play with you.


Last game: Farah town, hard read based on not much, Shining obvious town.
This game: Farah ?, Shining mafia.

180 in gameplay = 180 in alignment

Obviously mafia.

##vote: Farahblackwing

Soooo mafia. Lynch today!

I actually like this a lot.

##Vote: Farahblackwing
On November 16 2015 05:42 VisceraEyes wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:38 The Shining wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:33 VisceraEyes wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:13 Eversince wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:04 FarahBlackwing wrote:
Hello. I think the proper use of our time is

##vote shining

Statistically it has to be time


100% townread based on nothing last game I play with you.


Last game: Farah town, hard read based on not much, Shining obvious town.
This game: Farah ?, Shining mafia.

180 in gameplay = 180 in alignment

Obviously mafia.

##vote: Farahblackwing

Soooo mafia. Lynch today!

I actually like this a lot.

##Vote: Farahblackwing


What about it do you like? I see a short meta read based off of one newbie game, from a newbie. I wouldn't be nearly this confident in meta reading someone after just one game. And how do you know its even accurate? Did you check the last game or are you just blindly trusting to get on a wagon here?

I don't care if it's accurate - if they're mafia and lying someone will come in and say "Hey that's a lie" and I'll reevaluate then. At this point I'm taking the short meta read at face value, assuming it's true and taking the attempt as a townie attempt to find mafia - one that has possibly borne fruit.

So no, I'm not just "blindly" jumping on a wagon. I like this particular wagon for the reasons given and I like the person who started it, as indicated in my post.
On November 16 2015 05:45 VisceraEyes wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:44 The Shining wrote:
If you want me to explain, the logic of closing your eyes and finding a town less than an hour to d1 by just pointing means statistically you have a higher chance of finding town by being random. By that same logic, snap voting this early on D1 means it has a higher chance of landing on town.

Farrah why do you think the game is boring less than an hour after it started? That feels pretty ñonsensical. Things have to happen for it to be exciting, or boring. Deciding its boring on the 3rd post of the game is pretty weird.

And AS I said, it wasn't a random snap vote. It's a vote placed with reason. You may or may not agree with the reason, that's your prerogative and should affect whether or not you place your vote. Not mine. <3

These three posts show that VisceraEyes is treating Eversince's first post seriously. He says that he likes Eversince's argument, and that he's townreading Eversince and scumreading FarahBlackwing because of it. Furthermore, he uses this repeatedly in his argument with The Shining, which apparently leads to a scumread of The Shining, shown by this post (among others):
On November 16 2015 05:50 VisceraEyes wrote:
You're getting awfully anxious about me trusting someone so early Shining, I have to say it looks really scummy to me. Why are you so against me having a townread on someone and a scumread on someone else?


After my case and Eversince's post, showing that Eversince's early vote on FarahBlackwing had no basis, VisceraEyes says this:
On November 16 2015 21:34 VisceraEyes wrote:
Also I'm back!

##Unvote

I like the posts since my vote, and it wasn't super cereal anyway as many of you have clearly deduced.
Ok, so he wasn't being serious earlier. Not only did he make a joke, but then he defended his joke several times, to the point of scumreading The Shining for it.

I just can't believe this.


2. General
For the moment, let's assume that VisceraEyes was in fact joking with his first series of posts, and let's ignore that this makes no sense.

VisceraEyes receives a bunch of town reads after he leaves, notably from geript and ritoky.

Notice how VisceraEyes leaves in the same minute that geript posts a strong townread of him.

VisceraEyes made three posts upon return, shown below:
+ Show Spoiler [VisceraEyes' Posts] +
On November 16 2015 21:14 VisceraEyes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 16:21 ritoky wrote:
On November 16 2015 15:53 MoosyDoosy wrote:
On November 16 2015 15:50 ritoky wrote:
On November 16 2015 15:46 MoosyDoosy wrote:
On November 16 2015 15:42 ritoky wrote:
why does you playing on other sites render meta worthless exactly?

I can give you links to games for reference if you desire, but my play has changed a ton than what it usually was.


okay, with your new improved play; could you tell me who is mafia or town?

It's not necessarily improved but:
Farah
disformation
Shining
geript


is this the town list or mafia list? i can't tell

I think it's both...the question itself was a little ambiguous so maybe he just answered it as best he could, including both townreads and mafiareads?
On November 16 2015 21:34 VisceraEyes wrote:
Also I'm back!

##Unvote

I like the posts since my vote, and it wasn't super cereal anyway as many of you have clearly deduced. Most of the people actively posting I like, I think I dislike Fecal the mostest of anyone who's posted.

The super hard townreads on me from geript and ritoky BOTH gave me massive wood. I think geript's might feel a little over-explainy, but I still can't bring myself to find it suspicious. Pocket achieved for both of you.

So yeah, unless we're lynching a hard lurker, which I'm always down with, I think I prefer a Fecalfeast lynch. Aside from one townread on Ritoky, I really don't know what Fecal thinks in spite of his actively engaging with the thread. I'd believe GTA if that game weren't so old hat, I think he's just mafia trying to skate by.
On November 16 2015 21:39 VisceraEyes wrote:
##Vote: Fecalfeast

JUST IN CASE THERE WAS ANY DOUBT AS TO THE SERIOUSNESS OF MY POST!!!!!!
First post is useless and strange. Why does he answer a question directed to someone else, when he's clearly not really sure?

VisceraEyes' next two posts are his thoughts about the game, and the only thoughts about the game that he's posted, assuming that his earlier posts were in jest. He says that he likes most of the people who have been posting (ok, so who doesn't he like then? not useful), and that he doesn't like Fecalfeast.

I personally don't really like this Fecalfeast read, but whatever, it's sort of up for interpretation. But this is his ONLY read.

Note that he spends a fair amount of this post responding to the townreads he's received. He's very aware of them, and this shows in his play. His activity tanked, he's not being useful or constructive, he made the terrible statement "I like most people who posted so far", which a perfect example of useless and lazy play.


3. Response to meta reads
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 16 2015 05:50 geript wrote:
I'm not voting for VE ever.
Hm, people townreading VisceraEyes very strongly with little explanation. Where have I seen this before?

This game. Everyone townread VisceraEyes for no reason. I thought VisceraEyes was scum. Everyone ignored me on the basis that "he's town". Guess what, he was scum.

In fact, look at VisceraEyes' first post in that game.
On August 26 2015 09:51 VisceraEyes wrote:
Hi I'm town.

Marv playing like Palmar makes me vom a little in my mouth. Otherwise I like most everyone who's posted so far.
Look familiar?

I don't see how the metareads given about VisceraEyes apply to this game. Either ~80% of his posts in this game were not serious, or he is clearly lying to try and explain his play. Ritoky's meta read has nothing to do with what I have presented, he didn't mention the posts related to this at all. As for geript's:
On November 16 2015 06:13 geript wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 06:09 Trfel wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:50 geript wrote:
I'm not voting for VE ever.
You're going to need to explain this.

Read other VE games. He's really easy to read when he gets semi active. Part of it is based in the fact that VE and I scum hunt rather differently. He takes on an egocentric (in the technical sense not in the asshole sense) view of other players; i.e. How he acts when he's scum and applies it to them. So when you see him jump on certain things in an accusatory way (especially when he's not trying to assream them) he's almost always town.
I don't understand this read. I've seen VisceraEyes jump on things and not push them into oblivion as mafia, too. For example, look at the game I linked; VisceraEyes was scumreading both Palmar and I but when Palmar asked him to reread the entire game under the assumption that we were both town and then share his thoughts, he did so (or at least partially did so).

My case stands for itself, I've had enough of random meta.


I was able to actually follow this case and see your point of view, unlike your first "case".

Now I need to decide if you are actually town - or posting scummy cases like you did in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486978-newbie-student-mafia-xi and try to mislynch everyone to win.
This is an extremely useless comment. This says actually nothing. Yet he doesn't unvote until later, and has NEVER come to a conclusion about this. The random unvote timing makes no sense. The lack of analysis of my case makes no sense, he's not even trying.

The fact that he repeats this non-argument, useless comment suggests that he's just trying to avoid my argument instead of address it. He can't scumread me and he knows it, but he's avoiding townreading me and avoiding listening to what I have to say.

Finally, look at his progression on MoosyDoosy.

1. MoosyDoosy is mafia!
2. MoosyDoosy is town for martyring, he did this last game as mafia
3. Votes MoosyDoosy because he wants to kill lazy town

ZERO changed between 2 and 3. Zero. He expected that MoosyDoosy would stop martyring and actually play?

Scott31337 shows zero thinking and zero read progression. This is not a town mindset at all.
Again, the big point is that nothing he's doing shows any desire to solve the game.

Again, this isn't something that you can debate with meta. If you're not trying to solve the game, you're either mafia or you should be banned.

On VisceraEyes
+ Show Spoiler +
I believe that the argument here is that I have played five games with VisceraEyes, and that VisceraEyes always looks scummy and is an easy target.

It's true that VisceraEyes doesn't tend to be extremely towny as town, however that doesn't make him an easier lynch target. Mafia motivation is always mafia motivation, regardless of player skill. Much of my case on VisceraEyes directly involved mafia motivation, the rest of it suggested mafia motivation.

Again, look at my arguments for scumreading VisceraEyes.
On November 17 2015 05:05 Trfel wrote:
VisceraEyes (again)
Note: Eversince will be addressed in a following post

1. On Eversince and FarahBlackwing
Eversince's initial post, voting for The Shining
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 05:13 Eversince wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:04 FarahBlackwing wrote:
Hello. I think the proper use of our time is

##vote shining

Statistically it has to be time


100% townread based on nothing last game I play with you.


Last game: Farah town, hard read based on not much, Shining obvious town.
This game: Farah ?, Shining mafia.

180 in gameplay = 180 in alignment

Obviously mafia.

##vote: Farahblackwing

Soooo mafia. Lynch today!
Eversince's later post explaining the clear flaw in the above argument:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 06:30 Eversince wrote:
To clarify, The Shining lurked bad last game I played with.
Farah town reads him regardless.

This game, Farah mafia reads The Shining.
He had not even posted yet.

Yeh! It's completely different play! Buggers! Sorry for pointin' it out!

VisceraEyes responds to this is a way that doesn't make sense at all.

Before my case on VisceraEyes and the second post above from Eversince, VisceraEyes posted these posts:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 05:33 VisceraEyes wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:13 Eversince wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:04 FarahBlackwing wrote:
Hello. I think the proper use of our time is

##vote shining

Statistically it has to be time


100% townread based on nothing last game I play with you.


Last game: Farah town, hard read based on not much, Shining obvious town.
This game: Farah ?, Shining mafia.

180 in gameplay = 180 in alignment

Obviously mafia.

##vote: Farahblackwing

Soooo mafia. Lynch today!

I actually like this a lot.

##Vote: Farahblackwing
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 05:42 VisceraEyes wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:38 The Shining wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:33 VisceraEyes wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:13 Eversince wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:04 FarahBlackwing wrote:
Hello. I think the proper use of our time is

##vote shining

Statistically it has to be time


100% townread based on nothing last game I play with you.


Last game: Farah town, hard read based on not much, Shining obvious town.
This game: Farah ?, Shining mafia.

180 in gameplay = 180 in alignment

Obviously mafia.

##vote: Farahblackwing

Soooo mafia. Lynch today!

I actually like this a lot.

##Vote: Farahblackwing


What about it do you like? I see a short meta read based off of one newbie game, from a newbie. I wouldn't be nearly this confident in meta reading someone after just one game. And how do you know its even accurate? Did you check the last game or are you just blindly trusting to get on a wagon here?

I don't care if it's accurate - if they're mafia and lying someone will come in and say "Hey that's a lie" and I'll reevaluate then. At this point I'm taking the short meta read at face value, assuming it's true and taking the attempt as a townie attempt to find mafia - one that has possibly borne fruit.

So no, I'm not just "blindly" jumping on a wagon. I like this particular wagon for the reasons given and I like the person who started it, as indicated in my post.
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 05:45 VisceraEyes wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:44 The Shining wrote:
If you want me to explain, the logic of closing your eyes and finding a town less than an hour to d1 by just pointing means statistically you have a higher chance of finding town by being random. By that same logic, snap voting this early on D1 means it has a higher chance of landing on town.

Farrah why do you think the game is boring less than an hour after it started? That feels pretty ñonsensical. Things have to happen for it to be exciting, or boring. Deciding its boring on the 3rd post of the game is pretty weird.

And AS I said, it wasn't a random snap vote. It's a vote placed with reason. You may or may not agree with the reason, that's your prerogative and should affect whether or not you place your vote. Not mine. <3

These three posts show that VisceraEyes is treating Eversince's first post seriously. He says that he likes Eversince's argument, and that he's townreading Eversince and scumreading FarahBlackwing because of it. Furthermore, he uses this repeatedly in his argument with The Shining, which apparently leads to a scumread of The Shining, shown by this post (among others):
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 05:50 VisceraEyes wrote:
You're getting awfully anxious about me trusting someone so early Shining, I have to say it looks really scummy to me. Why are you so against me having a townread on someone and a scumread on someone else?


After my case and Eversince's post, showing that Eversince's early vote on FarahBlackwing had no basis, VisceraEyes says this:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 21:34 VisceraEyes wrote:
Also I'm back!

##Unvote

I like the posts since my vote, and it wasn't super cereal anyway as many of you have clearly deduced.
Ok, so he wasn't being serious earlier. Not only did he make a joke, but then he defended his joke several times, to the point of scumreading The Shining for it.

I just can't believe this.


2. General
For the moment, let's assume that VisceraEyes was in fact joking with his first series of posts, and let's ignore that this makes no sense.

VisceraEyes receives a bunch of town reads after he leaves, notably from geript and ritoky.

Notice how VisceraEyes leaves in the same minute that geript posts a strong townread of him.

VisceraEyes made three posts upon return, shown below:
+ Show Spoiler [VisceraEyes' Posts] +
On November 16 2015 21:14 VisceraEyes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 16:21 ritoky wrote:
On November 16 2015 15:53 MoosyDoosy wrote:
On November 16 2015 15:50 ritoky wrote:
On November 16 2015 15:46 MoosyDoosy wrote:
On November 16 2015 15:42 ritoky wrote:
why does you playing on other sites render meta worthless exactly?

I can give you links to games for reference if you desire, but my play has changed a ton than what it usually was.


okay, with your new improved play; could you tell me who is mafia or town?

It's not necessarily improved but:
Farah
disformation
Shining
geript


is this the town list or mafia list? i can't tell

I think it's both...the question itself was a little ambiguous so maybe he just answered it as best he could, including both townreads and mafiareads?
On November 16 2015 21:34 VisceraEyes wrote:
Also I'm back!

##Unvote

I like the posts since my vote, and it wasn't super cereal anyway as many of you have clearly deduced. Most of the people actively posting I like, I think I dislike Fecal the mostest of anyone who's posted.

The super hard townreads on me from geript and ritoky BOTH gave me massive wood. I think geript's might feel a little over-explainy, but I still can't bring myself to find it suspicious. Pocket achieved for both of you.

So yeah, unless we're lynching a hard lurker, which I'm always down with, I think I prefer a Fecalfeast lynch. Aside from one townread on Ritoky, I really don't know what Fecal thinks in spite of his actively engaging with the thread. I'd believe GTA if that game weren't so old hat, I think he's just mafia trying to skate by.
On November 16 2015 21:39 VisceraEyes wrote:
##Vote: Fecalfeast

JUST IN CASE THERE WAS ANY DOUBT AS TO THE SERIOUSNESS OF MY POST!!!!!!
First post is useless and strange. Why does he answer a question directed to someone else, when he's clearly not really sure?

VisceraEyes' next two posts are his thoughts about the game, and the only thoughts about the game that he's posted, assuming that his earlier posts were in jest. He says that he likes most of the people who have been posting (ok, so who doesn't he like then? not useful), and that he doesn't like Fecalfeast.

I personally don't really like this Fecalfeast read, but whatever, it's sort of up for interpretation. But this is his ONLY read.

Note that he spends a fair amount of this post responding to the townreads he's received. He's very aware of them, and this shows in his play. His activity tanked, he's not being useful or constructive, he made the terrible statement "I like most people who posted so far", which a perfect example of useless and lazy play.


3. Response to meta reads
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 16 2015 05:50 geript wrote:
I'm not voting for VE ever.
Hm, people townreading VisceraEyes very strongly with little explanation. Where have I seen this before?

This game. Everyone townread VisceraEyes for no reason. I thought VisceraEyes was scum. Everyone ignored me on the basis that "he's town". Guess what, he was scum.

In fact, look at VisceraEyes' first post in that game.
On August 26 2015 09:51 VisceraEyes wrote:
Hi I'm town.

Marv playing like Palmar makes me vom a little in my mouth. Otherwise I like most everyone who's posted so far.
Look familiar?

I don't see how the metareads given about VisceraEyes apply to this game. Either ~80% of his posts in this game were not serious, or he is clearly lying to try and explain his play. Ritoky's meta read has nothing to do with what I have presented, he didn't mention the posts related to this at all. As for geript's:
On November 16 2015 06:13 geript wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 16 2015 06:09 Trfel wrote:
On November 16 2015 05:50 geript wrote:
I'm not voting for VE ever.
You're going to need to explain this.

Read other VE games. He's really easy to read when he gets semi active. Part of it is based in the fact that VE and I scum hunt rather differently. He takes on an egocentric (in the technical sense not in the asshole sense) view of other players; i.e. How he acts when he's scum and applies it to them. So when you see him jump on certain things in an accusatory way (especially when he's not trying to assream them) he's almost always town.
I don't understand this read. I've seen VisceraEyes jump on things and not push them into oblivion as mafia, too. For example, look at the game I linked; VisceraEyes was scumreading both Palmar and I but when Palmar asked him to reread the entire game under the assumption that we were both town and then share his thoughts, he did so (or at least partially did so).

My case stands for itself, I've had enough of random meta.
In this very post, I addressed the meta arguments presented to townread VisceraEyes as I understand them.

Again, I don't use very much meta. Here's my scumread of VisceraEyes from Gaiden 2.
On August 27 2015 17:59 Trfel wrote:
First he votes for WaveofShadow, and then decides to change his vote to MoosyDoosy based on how MoosyDoosy kept talking to WaveofShadow.
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2015 00:34 VisceraEyes wrote:
Okay so I filtered Moosy, and the reason I thought he was one of the Wave pushers is because of the sheer number of times he mentions Wave's name, but it's in the context of "I want to hear from Wave" or "Game so hard w/o Wave" etc.

Based on this, I think it's actually more likely that Wave is town and Moosy is like, appealing to him or something. Trying to slip him in his pocket. Only problem with that is that he and Wave are like, TLLOLOTDT buddies, so it's not unreasonable to think that he's doing this as town....I just get a really bad feeling off Moosy.

The flip on marv. Ummmmmm.....I can see that from a mafia perspective. Especially if he's not super aware of Marv's meta, maybe his partners were like "WHOA BUDDY, BETTER TURN THAT SHIT AROUND" after he posted about lynching marv. Marv's right though, in a vacuum it seems townie.

Eeehhhhhhh....I like it better than an AFK Wave vote anyway. Certainly better than a JAT vote.

##Unvote
##Vote: MoosyDoosy
This isn't a convincing case at all. VisceraEyes starts out by saying that he thinks that MoosyDoosy is pocketing WaveofShadow, but this is reasonable from town, but he gets a bad feeling anyway. Then he says that he can see something that can be considered towny may be able to come from a mafia perspective. And then he says it's better than voting for someone who is AFK.

Which results in a vote on MoosyDoosy.

VisceraEyes doesn't seem convinced by his own case. And he's downplaying his earlier vote on WaveofShadow, which felt really out of place anyway.

I don't understand why he voted for WaveofShadow in the first place. The strength he places in his WaveofShadow read seems to vary a lot:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2015 00:10 VisceraEyes wrote:
On August 27 2015 00:05 marvellosity wrote:
On August 27 2015 00:04 marvellosity wrote:
On August 27 2015 00:02 VisceraEyes wrote:
On August 27 2015 00:01 Palmar wrote:
On August 26 2015 23:56 VisceraEyes wrote:
Meh I think JAT is town and Palmar can lick a [redacted] lamppost in wintertime.

WHO IS MAFIA THEN EINSTEIN?

I kinda like the Wave sentiment. FMP, the people hanging in the background not taking a side on the issue are the suspicious ones with regard to the whole JAT thing.

name names, babe

^ do this though.

##Vote: WaveofShadow

Beyond that, Moosy is kinda not taking a side, which I find super strange, and there are several people who have yet to even post.
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2015 00:34 VisceraEyes wrote:
[case on MoosyDoosy]

Eeehhhhhhh....I like it better than an AFK Wave vote anyway. Certainly better than a JAT vote.

##Unvote
##Vote: MoosyDoosy
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2015 00:41 VisceraEyes wrote:
I didn't like Wave's entrance, worst in the thread besides marv's. Then he disappeared which I find to be extremely out of character for Wave. I'm interested to hear why you think I'm focusing around him so much though, I've spent WAY more posts trying to oppose a JAT lynch and appealing to marv and Palmar.
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2015 02:01 VisceraEyes wrote:
On August 27 2015 01:59 WaveofShadow wrote:
On August 27 2015 01:57 marvellosity wrote:
On August 27 2015 01:53 WaveofShadow wrote:
No wait.
Dumb.
Shadow game.

yes, how could you forget one of my most comprehensive mafia triumphs

Yeh that was a very good one.
One of the best games I've ever had the pleasure of playing in.

Marv do you not think that VE has similar cohones to me in that he does not fear taking you/Palmar on as scum?
I don't think Palmar's OMGUS has any particular true reason behind it but I don't think VE is ruled out.

Wait wait wait, have you even READ my posts? I've had nearly an IDENTICAL thought process as you have based on your posts, and you're not ruling me out? Are you fucking mafia Wave?!?!?


VisceraEyes transitions from voting for WaveofShadow to seemingly being surprised and not having considered that WaveofShadow could be mafia.
In this game I was town and VisceraEyes was mafia.

In this game there were also a ton of people who were townreading VisceraEyes either without giving reasons or giving meta reasons that I can't understand (more on the latter later). They didn't pay any attention to my case, I was forced to give up my VisceraEyes push because it was going nowhere.

As for whether VisceraEyes is a good/common target for mafia to push, that's mostly for you to decide. But one thing about VisceraEyes is that there are a ton of people who will use meta to townread VisceraEyes every game he's in, sometimes incorrectly. This is made obvious by Gaiden 2, where my own mason partner Palmar gave an unexplained townread on VisceraEyes which ended up being wrong. There are so many people with experience playing with VisceraEyes that any push on VisceraEyes has to go through a lot of meta townreads first.

On Breshke
+ Show Spoiler +
NocturneMage wrote:
5 games with Breshke when Breshke was town. That's enough information I feel to realise that Breshke if town here, could be falling below town expectations.
Huh? Yes, I've seen from Noir Mini Mafia Chapter 3 that Breshke doesn't always play his best as town. But that's EVEN MORE reason to townread him.

I don't understand this point.
NocturneMage wrote:so at the very least geript's statement regarding misrepresentation of of Breshke's reads could be valid.
I've already explained, many times, that I look at geript's read on Breshke and I look at Breskhe's filter and I see the exact opposite. I've tried to explain this, and I've tried to see what geript was trying to say, but geript never answered me.

As I said earlier, the defining characteristic of Breshke's town play, to me, is the smart, insightful comments. Which I've seen this game. Breshke isn't the kind of player who dominates the thread and pushes his lynches through. He's the kind of player who analyzes things, tries to figure things out, and then posts his thinking for everyone else to see, and it's generally really useful. I'm pretty sure that this was discussed in Noir Mafia Chapter 3, if you want proof. It's the same view that rsoultin had about Breshke.

Breshke's play this game is a reasonable fit for this description. The one problem with this read (other than the subjectivity) is that in Noir Chapter 3, he didn't provide any analysis that I considered really insightful, and he was town, so the negative isn't a definitive proof of mafia. I hope to re-evaluate Breshke soon anyway, and I will try to ignore my perceptions of Breshke's meta when I do so.

Other
+ Show Spoiler +
NocturneMage, you say the case isn't meta, but it's the very definition of meta. Meta is simply information used that comes from outside of the current game. Which is the entirety of this case. Unless I'm wrong on my definition of meta? (that would be pretty miserable, ~18 games on TL Mafia, still doesn't know what meta is...)

On a different note, my playstyle and the way I make my reads is rather unique.

I don't use a lot of meta. At least, relative to many other players. I don't really know how I make my reads, I don't know where they come from. I try to look for mafia motivations behind everything, but many of my reads don't directly involve mafia motivation. I also don't really use townreads that much, I prefer to simply find mafia. I try to re-evaluate everything for myself; what I can't understand, I can't support. For an example of why this is necessary, look at TL Mafia LXXI: Gaiden. In this game, Palmar flipped mafia. The mafia team took this opportunity to keep on saying "Palmar never busses as mafia, he's always about trying to play a fun game, and to him a fun game is where mafia defends each other. So, anyone that Palmar pushed is town." I didn't have the background to understand this, or why it's a 100% read, but there were so many people saying this that we all ended up going with it. And Palmar had played the game by bussing as much as possible, one of the big things that led to a pretty awful town loss.

As for how this applies to this game, I cannot simply accept geript's reads. When I'm not sure of his alignment, when I don't understand how he got his reads, when I'm seeing the exact opposite things that he mentioned, I cannot accept his reads because "he's geript". He never actually addressed the points that I had brought up. Never.

NocturneMage's case has a bunch of other flaws caused by not actually reading the games involved. The simplest example of this is that NocturneMage said that I observed a game with scott31337 in it (Generic Boring Mini Mafia). This is technically true, I asked and received access to the obs qt, but I've never actually followed a game that I haven't played in for more than a few hours. I'm just not capable of it. You can look at the obs qt for yourself, see how active I was XD

One final point: nothing makes sense without context. Ask any experienced mafia player, they'll tell you that mafia is all about context. Anyone can make any argument at any time, and it doesn't necessarily tell you anything, it's the context of that argument that is so important.

You can take a bunch of stuff out of context and make any argument. ANY argument. But that doesn't mean that the argument is correct. NocturneMage's post involves zero context whatsoever. The post does not address any of my actual play this game or my actual reasoning behind my reads. The post does not address what actually happened in the games mentioned. The post does not address how I play mafia, and instead uses this idea of how I should play mafia (I have no clue where this idea even came from). The context leads to a completely different conclusion.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 19:32 GMT
#1219
Let me explain the scott31337 thing again.

Scott31337 said that I could be mafia because I'm capable of making a compelling argument as mafia. Scott31337 said that geript is town because he made a post explaining how VisceraEyes' play fit his town meta. (validity of these points aside)

The main problem isn't either one of the two points individually, the problem is the points combined. It doesn't make sense for scott31337 to give geript an easy townread and to refuse to townread me or analyze my thought process.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 19:34 GMT
#1220
On November 20 2015 04:16 Damdred wrote:
Trfel will you tell me who is acum?
I don't know, this game has been miserable for me. Fighting with geript all of Day 1, only to realize that I've been wrong on three of my biggest suspects this game.

All this right after I thought I was finally figuring out how to be a good mafia player....

I'll look at Breshke and disformation when I have a chance, but my exam is a much higher priority for me.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 22:50 GMT
#1261
Ritoky, how stupid do you think I am?

Do you really think that as mafia with a ton of momentum, I'd go into Day 2 and push an un-cc'd blue? Just to back off when they replace out? Instead of all of the other fairly easy targets in the thread?

Like, why would mafia ever do this?

FarahBlackwing's play made no sense at all, I couldn't possibly see it coming from town. I still can't. If Damdred is town, hopefully mafia will kill him soon.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 22:54 GMT
#1265
I just don't understand this, at all. This is why I play mafia so infrequently now.

So many people with their stupid unexplained reads. Who don't listen to what I have to say. I get ignored all of the time.

At least people paid a token of attention to me this game, only to blame me for the mislynch and decide that I'm obviously scum because of it. Clearly it wasn't their fault at all for following me.

So.

Dumb.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 22:56 GMT
#1267
Like, I'm pouring so much time into this game. During my exam week, when I said I'd be busy.

And now I'm being lynched because "geript said..." When geript didn't do a single towny thing all game long?

I don't care that geript's flipped town, that DOES NOT make him right. AS PROVEN BY MY ROLE PM.

Use a bit of sense.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 23:07 GMT
#1277
On November 20 2015 07:59 ritoky wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2015 07:56 Trfel wrote:
Like, I'm pouring so much time into this game. During my exam week, when I said I'd be busy.

And now I'm being lynched because "geript said..." When geript didn't do a single towny thing all game long?

I don't care that geript's flipped town, that DOES NOT make him right. AS PROVEN BY MY ROLE PM.

Use a bit of sense.


so who's mafia then? why did you back off damdred if his slot's play made no sense?
I always give replacements a day pass.

There's absolutely no reason not to do so. Often times, a replacing player gives a new perspective to the slot's alignment that I simply couldn't see before.

I keep looking at Breshke's play, and it seems to be getting worse and worse. The big thing that stands out are the unfulfilled activity promises, he keeps vanishing. But this is exam time for him, he barely signed up to play anyway. Activity aside, his play feels very genuine and there's a natural progression to the way that he pushed his scum reads on Day 1.

MoosyDoosy has seemed quite towny with the push on FarahBlackwing, but since Damdred's replacement MoosyDoosy has been pretty awful. The claim included. Shooting someone for information is terrible. But I don't see any reason for him to claim there as mafia, he wasn't really suspected by anyone and the bad claim can only hurt him in the end.

By process of elimination, I'm down to disformation, Fecalfeast, Damdred, and Eversince. The last two of which are terrible lynches today for reasons previously mentioned.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 23:10 GMT
#1280
On November 20 2015 08:03 Fecalfeast wrote:
I'd be more comfortable lynching breshke over angry!trfel
Really?

I need to take a look at a few things, but you'd better not go anywhere....
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 19 2015 23:55 GMT
#1281
Fecalfeast

Here the posts that Fecalfeast has made this game that show his read progression.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 16 2015 08:33 Fecalfeast wrote:
I'm not really reading too closely. Watching CFL with my dad and bro. Tone/feel reads telling me farah is town, geript is town, disform is mafia ever is towny...

Refs in this game are blind
On November 16 2015 08:34 Fecalfeast wrote:
Oh disforms ninja post is fine for now.
On November 17 2015 05:36 Fecalfeast wrote:
VE you have me on steam lol my buddy hasn't done any of the online stuff yet

I'm mostly skimming here but I side with trfel on VE for sure.

town:
ritoky
trfel
nocturne

mafia:
moose
ve


that's all I got
On November 17 2015 08:04 Fecalfeast wrote:
ve seems ok now that i'm interacting with him
On November 17 2015 08:21 Fecalfeast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2015 08:07 Breshke wrote:
On November 17 2015 08:04 Fecalfeast wrote:
ve seems ok now that i'm interacting with him

why?

He's explained his reasoning for voting me further and my earlier scumread was entirely sheeped from trfel
On November 17 2015 08:44 Fecalfeast wrote:
##unvote

I'm going to completely ignore moose for the rest of this game but I believe that he is really being that much of a female dog about rolling town.
On November 17 2015 09:47 Fecalfeast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 17 2015 09:43 Trfel wrote:
On November 17 2015 09:41 Fecalfeast wrote:
On November 17 2015 09:36 Trfel wrote:
Also, Fecalfeast, I believe you have zero scum reads right now?

Do you plan on doing something about that in the near future?

VE went from scum to null but sure.

What are you even asking here?

"FF you gonna keep playing?"
You had two scumreads, VisceraEyes and MoosyDoosy. You're no longer scumreading both of them.

I was just wanting your thoughts on that, that's all.

How much past experience do you have with MoosyDoosy?

Anyway, off to my exam.

I hosted the game where he bused the dick off his whole team as mafia. He legitimately seems like a player who much prefers scum play over town play.

That said, I also agree with the idea that giving him a free pass for throwing a tantrum is lame.


Fuck it ##vote mooseydoosey
On November 17 2015 09:56 Fecalfeast wrote:
scott's filter is unappetizing and stingily portioned. 0 stars out of 5
On November 17 2015 10:12 Fecalfeast wrote:
I could kill scott if we're gonna ignore moose again
On November 17 2015 11:49 Fecalfeast wrote:
If I were scum and moose was town, I'd be laughing it up in scum qt right now about how, unless he gets vigged, we have a guaranteed mislynch in lylo.

Which means we should probably get rid of him sooner than later.
On November 19 2015 08:39 Fecalfeast wrote:
1. Unless someone claims a vig shot on Geript, he was the only one adamant about trfel being scum and was getting upset that nobody listened to him.

2. His day 1 suspicions from his filter: VE, Moose, Scott, Me. I know 3/4 of those are town 100% while moose is showing some towny play since yesterday.

3. Totally willing to vote an uncc'd blue because she's martyring.

On November 19 2015 08:58 Fecalfeast wrote:
I can't say I'm tunneled on you trfel but right now that's where my brain is. I've only just been in your filter and i will take a closer look later. I've still got shit to do right now tho
On November 20 2015 07:50 Fecalfeast wrote:
I will kill bresh or trfel because geript confirmed the mafia kill makes it more likely he was offed for his reads, since mafia knows we have a vet* they wouldn't worry about a medic dodge.


*assuming farah's claim was real
On November 20 2015 08:03 Fecalfeast wrote:
I'd be more comfortable lynching breshke over angry!trfel

So, there are a few trends shown by the above posts.

1. Whoever posts is town
  • Disformation from mafia to null (?) for this post
  • VisceraEyes from mafia to null due to interacting with him
  • MoosyDoosy town for being completely obnoxious
  • Backs off on Trfel because he is angry
Furthermore, all of these are really, really weak. One by one:

The disinformation post that caused Fecalfeast to change his read isn't that great. It's the first actual reads post that disinformation has made all game, and it was only made on request. But this caused a dramatic change in Fecalfeast's read? Enough to make him never seriously discuss disformation again?

The way he downplayed his scumread on VisceraEyes is terrible. "I side with trfel on VE for sure", leading to a townread on Trfel and a scumread on VisceraEyes. Then, "ve seems ok now that i'm interacting with him" and "He's explained his reasoning for voting me further and my earlier scumread was entirely sheeped from trfel". First, VisceraEyes' Fecalfeast read wasn't a part of my case on VisceraEyes. The fact that this is what Fecalfeast mentioned, while also saying that his scumread came purely from my case, does not make sense at all.

For MoosyDoosy, his reasons are debatable, but the important thing is that he voted for MoosyDoosy again later. More on this later.

At the same time as Fecalfeast backed off of me (Trfel), he pushed onto Breshke. And he hadn't mentioned Breshke before. This push came out of nowhere. He said he'd rather lynch Breshke because I was "angry".

Every single time, there's a person who makes some posts, and Fecalfeast removes his scumread on that person. This is every single time that Fecalfeast has removed a scumread on someone. This reeks of "don't hurt me, I'm not scumreading you!"

2. "Decision" about Day 1 lynch target

Fecalfeast first includes MoosyDoosy as mafia in his list (no reason given), then votes MoosyDoosy for martyring. Then he unvotes MoosyDoosy because he thinks MoosyDoosy is just that obnoxious when he rolls town.

At this point, Fecalfeast had zero scum reads. So, he went back and voted for MoosyDoosy again, reasoning being that "giving him a free pass for throwing a tantrum is lame". It's noteworthy that at this time, there was a lot of push for lynching MoosyDoosy. This vote on MoosyDoosy is extremely opportunistic and seems to be a patch for Fecalfeast having zero reads.

Ritoky, one of the game's highest-influence players, then says that MoosyDoosy is exempt from being lynched. Fecalfeast immediately says he will look into scott31337. And then says he could kill scott31337. He doesn't care one bit about who is lynched, which is shown by his post saying that town ignoring MoosyDoosy causes them to automatically lose LYLO if MoosyDoosy is town, but ultimately vote for scott31337 instead of MoosyDoosy with no new reasons presented.

The progression is basically:
  • MoosyDoosy is scum
  • MoosyDoosy could do this as town
  • I'm going to vote MoosyDoosy just because
  • Scott31337 could be mafia, I could lynch him
  • MoosyDoosy should be dealt with sooner rather than later
  • Votes for scott31337 at deadline
Which makes no sense. Fecalfeast doesn't are at all about his vote. And why should he, when it's between two town players?

3. Other factors

I don't really have time to explain this as in detail, but namely his play on Day 3. He said that he didn't like disformation, but he never followed up on this or explained this at all. He said that I (Trfel) was suspicious primarily because of night kill analysis, but never actually addressed any of my posts or arguments like I asked him to, and like he said he would. Then he moved to Breshke, who he only mentioned once before in his filter, with a TOWN LEAN. Okay.

Conclusion

Fecalfeast is always taking the easy route, always making the easy reads. He's always keeping one scum read and when that stops being easy, he's just moving to the new easy scum read. His apathy towards the Day 1 lynch between two townies and forced read switches are extremely suspicious.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
November 20 2015 00:06 GMT
#1283
##vote Fecalfeast

Yup.

I guess Fecalfeast is never mafia, because he doesn't have any scumreads, so he can't ever be wrong. Because being wrong makes you scum.
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