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Alright so my full thoughts on TJ. This is sorta a filter dive / explanation of the evolution of my read.
in posts like this I usually spoiler the quotes I'm referring too to keep my posts from ballooning too badly.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 11 2015 11:06 TJHuggins wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2015 07:29 Fidei86 wrote:On July 11 2015 07:02 Half the Sky wrote:
YAY confirmed town <3 If only posting first did somehow make you confirmed town. That would sure make this game a lot easier  So that everyone knows, the only players I know in the game are scott and NHM. I tunnelled scott pretty hard in the game we played together (Holy Guardians) but he was actually town. I null read NHM in HGand he was mafia, then town read him in Himalayas and he was town. I've also chatted a fair bit to HTS, but I don't know how she plays mafia. Yo I have no clue wtf those acronyms mean can u put like Nydushermain (NHM) the first time you use an acronym so I can understand what you're talking about? Who is HTS? On a game note, I think it's pretty good if we all say like what our mafia background 1) I don't know anyone except for nydus and 2) i always judge my reads on people against a background of their experience (e.g. easier to read someone new to mafia based on little things they do). I have played video mafia on DailyMafia for almost two years and have never played forum mafia before. I am basically a god. I am in a clan called the elo angels because im so good and my elo is so high. My day job involves working with and for lawyers every day so i think about thinks pretty logically and might write formally at some points based on my mood. In video mafia I usually pick up on and push on (sometimes minor) logical inconsistencies and ive noticed ive been tunnelling a bit too hard lately so that may happen this game. My only read so far is that Half the Sky is spamming. [purple]Also it allowed if i just put every post I type in purple so taht you guys always know its me?[/purple]
TJ's opener was decent, he asks people to share their mafia experience which is a decent place to start in a newbie game. He makes some claims about being a good player with solid video mafia experience and explains that he works with lawyers. Regardless of if that is posturing or legit I think it is safe to assume that TJ is a fairly smart player and should be accounted as one.
This initially led me to scum lean on TJ for 3 reasons.
1) He was scum reading Moosy without really trying to look for town rational behind Moosy's play.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2015 09:57 TJHuggins wrote:I agree with most about what has been said about Moosy. I'm trying to read this game similar to how I would read someone in video mafia (whether or not that is going to work remains to be seen). One way people often get on my "radar" if you will is by dropping sort of key phrases or acting in a certain way after being called out. In my first few months of playing, sometimes this scenario would happen: A particular player, who may be lurking, or just doesn't sound the same (voice tone, pattern, activeness, etc.) would get pinged out by another player who would say that they "feel different this game" or ask "why they're not playing the same as X game they played with them in." In some of these cases, the person would respond back by saying some variation of the phrase "I'm trying to switch up my play this game" or "I'm trying something new this game." I started to realize that when someone came back with this response most of the time they ended up being a mafia trying to cover up for there change in playstyle due to the change in alignment, or sometimes it was just an excuse to lurk e.g. "I'm going to try to sit back and listen and try to get town reads this game instead of trying to pressure the mafia to see how it works." I got a similar feeling looking back at what Moosy said (the quote that many have already noted), though I'll admit I didn't catch it the first time. One thing that I did catch, which I thought was kind of odd, is the quote below, though I'm not quite sure what it means yet. Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 02:27 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 12 2015 01:49 TJHuggins wrote:My initial reads so far is that i am town leaning on Fidei. I like the things he said in relation to spamming, and I think that him relating the perspective to a previous game where he was town feels like he's looking at the game from the perspective of a town. When he responded to HTS regarding talking about anti-spam being easy, he seems genuine. Or maybe it's just because I like his writing. No clue. My initial scum read is Grokken. It's nothing all that strong but I'm getting a wierd feeling about the things he's posted. To me it feels like he is trying to find ways to participate and seem town by chiming in now and again but really has no clue what to write about. On July 11 2015 09:36 Grokken wrote:On July 11 2015 09:32 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
My blood sense is telling me to lynch everyone who knows what theyre doing We should listen to this guy, he seems to know what he is doing. On July 11 2015 13:27 Grokken wrote:On July 11 2015 10:44 NydusHerMain wrote:
Hi, back home. You guys are fucking boring me.
##Vote: Fidei
I don't like the way this guy posts early Can you elaborate on this? What in particular is it that you don't like? I think that one sentence posts that appear to contribute to the game and don't really offer anything just kind of irk me the wrong way. I guess it's worth noting he did write that thing about Dota as well which was also one sentence but that's neither here nor there when it comes to the game I think. When I went back and read the post about him showing off his dota stats that actually reads to me a bit more towny now that I think about it, so not really sure. just an initial read. I don't agree with this but let's see what Ghandi says. It's a pretty innocuous post on it's face, but what stood out for me is that he is deferring to Ghandi before making judgment. But Ghandi's role in the context of the quoted posts is so minor that I can't think what he could possibly add to the conversation that would in turn color your judgment on Grokken's alignment. In fact, I never even mentioned Ghandi in my post. If he disagrees, ok, but why is he saying he needs to wait and see what Ghandi says? Not sure if I want to lynch him today, but he's on my radar. I still want to hear more. Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 08:56 Fidei86 wrote:
You said about ten posts ago that you were going to be town-hunting at first. Now you're saying that you're scum-hunting. Which is it?? I think you're reaching a bit here. This post seems so opposite to everything else you've written this game. What gives? On July 12 2015 23:33 TJHuggins wrote:Right now I'm at the point where I feel comfortable enough to ##vote MoosyDoosy. (reasons here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=10#191)I woke up this morning to see more posts from MD that read scum to me. I didn't think you were even allowed to vote for yourself. To me I haven't seen any protown content coming out of any of his posts, and his recent ones seem blatantly anti-town. And what really stands with me is that these are posts from someone who claims to apparently have been unanimously townread by all players but one in some recent previous forum mafia game. See his post on July 11 2015 at 16:30, ("I was an earnest townie last Newbie Student Mafia game with a monster filter. :3 Besides ruXxar everyone pretty much knew I was a townie which is why I want to change things up here and make things interesting.") I'm not buying it that this is a result of you switching up your play.
2) He added Sulf into his scum list without ever talking about him, he spent decent effort giving his other scum reads. Actually TJ never explains why Sulf showed up in this list.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 13 2015 06:31 TJHuggins wrote:
Figured I would post where I am at before EOD (for obvious reasons). Here's a scum list for me right now in order:
1. MoosyDoosy
2. Sulfuras
3. Grokken
Scott, NHM, and silentwarrior are all in a 3rd category for me which includes players that haven't impressed me with their content and have not left any last impact on me. Might be mafia, might be town. I would rather wait until day 2 to deal with this group since it may give them more time to provide content for me to figure out their alignment. Personally, I'd rather kill someone whos acting scummy than someone whos just a crap shoot (actually if this were video mafia I would pressure them and force them to talk but I can't really do that here.)
If at EOD 2 I still have nothing on those three, I would advocate to shooting, cop checking, lynching them. I would caution against vig shooting or cop checking any of the lurkers this night because I don't think it will really help progress our scum leads much. A vig shot is better saved on a clearly scummy person (same logic as above) and cop check better on someone whos a bit more active.
3) His reaction to EoD.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 13 2015 07:03 TJHuggins wrote:
Wait what... the vote count was changed after the day ended. This is some shitty modding. On July 13 2015 07:05 TJHuggins wrote:
I was refreshing the voting thread and never saw the change? Why was it even included in the first place if it wasn't allowed? That's silly. On July 13 2015 07:11 TJHuggins wrote:
Wow. Mod-error in town's favor. I'll take it. On July 13 2015 07:14 TJHuggins wrote:
I so strongly felt that MD is the most obvious mafia there could possible be... I was going to be so mad if Sulfuras flipped town. Now I'm not so sure since sulfuras was voting on MD. I need to reread Sulfuras posts to see why he was voting on MD. On July 13 2015 07:15 TJHuggins wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 07:13 Half the Sky wrote:On July 13 2015 07:11 TJHuggins wrote:
Wow. Mod-error in town's favor. I'll take it. We pointed that out in page 15. Nothing was changed after the fact. I'd have responded to you but some mods modkill if you post after deadline and as a moderator myself I didn't want to chance that. You pointed that out but none the less his vote was included in the voting thread for quite some time both before and after. I thought that perhaps it was frowned upon but no strictly forbidden. The fact that it was not corrected until after the time in the day ended is unacceptable imo. I feel very strongly about the integrity of games that I am in and it just annoys me when something like this happens. On July 13 2015 07:21 TJHuggins wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 07:16 KelsierSC wrote:On July 13 2015 07:14 TJHuggins wrote:
I so strongly felt that MD is the most obvious mafia there could possible be... I was going to be so mad if Sulfuras flipped town. Now I'm not so sure since sulfuras was voting on MD. I need to reread Sulfuras posts to see why he was voting on MD. I can give you a hint + Show Spoiler +also please don't criticise mods the way you did, they run games for us and it isn't easy. The mistake was made: that's fine. Everyone makes mistakes. To retroactively correct the mistake after the day ends instead of leaving it as is? Unacceptable from a game integrity standpoint. But we got a mafia; it's whatever. I get passionate about lynches.
I wanted to push my scumread as soon as I jumped into the game so right as D2 began I put my vote on TJ. Unfortunately TJ has basically stopped playing since D1 ended, so any pressure information this vote may have gotten was simply non existent.
Now I found this AFK to be fairly NAI. We know TJ is the boyfriend of NHM who clearly had something come up in RL to need to replace out. It seems perfectly reasonable to assume that this could be affecting TJ as well, and he even suggests this is the case.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2015 09:24 TJHuggins wrote:
I am dealing with someone that is taking priority in real life right now so I do not have time to write out a big post. I will give the essential information that I can provide to town tomorrow. probably.
Towards to end of D2 I decided it was best to not let my vote ride on an AFK person, so I moved my vote around a bit.
After the D2 flip I decided to re-evaluate my reads. I realized #3 of my reasons to scum read TJ was probably more of a town sign than a scum sign. If TJ is a halfway decent player he would realize this reaction would get him easily scum read, and it would be very easy for him to vent that anger in scum QT over In-Game.
I began reading into TJ's promise of important info and subsequent refusal to talk about it N2 as very probable signs that he had a role claim if the votes got bad enough on him. Him not wanting to talk about it N2 is understandable as no blue should ever out themselves during night phase.
At this point I figured that if I was thinking TJ might be a role here, then if he was indeed town then mafia could piece that together themselves. Thus I suggested TJ might be a decent medic save. I said that only half seriously (and whoever medic did save, gj) and as I breadcrumbed in my next post I was half just hoping to WIFOM mafia into not NKing TJ.
Of course TJ might really just be using this promise to buy himself time. Though I think a scum fake claiming like that would be near suicide, so I decided to go with my gut.
Points 1 & 2 have remained valid scum tells in my mind, which is why TJ is still pretty high up on my scum reads. Point #1 maybe isn't super solid though, TJ did give ok reasons for his read and he actively pushed MD a little regarding it.
Now TJ clearly has clearly had an opportunity already today to post, but failed to do anything meaningful. So if I'm right about him being a role I've effectively forced him to claim. Part of me doesn't like that, but at this point I think TJ has forced that on himself given the way he's played the past few phases.
I'm interested if anyone else has better reasons to think TJ is scum other than what I've mentioned here.
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Voted TJ - hopefully he'll shed light from his perspective. Particularly if somehow he's town he can shed some light on the d2 voting.
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Responding to a few things I didn't have time to at work.
On July 17 2015 04:50 n00bKing wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 04:38 Tictock wrote:
If Moosy had in fact Ninja voted like that I would think it very suspect, but most of my reaction was due to the fact that he hadn't actually voted in the voteing thread. I even noted that in one of my posts before Onegu sorted it. That reminded me of a scum strat Onegu himself had suggested to me in my last game with him. So I freaked out a little. I'm not sure of what you are saying here. If he didn't vote in the voting thread, then how did he vote at all? Votes don't count unless they appear in the voting thread, right? Are you saying that a player could like...submit a vote to the Mod via PM, without posting it in the voting thread, and still have it count? Because I didn't think something like that was possible (But I'm a n00b and this is only my 2nd game here, so I'm not sure.) If something like that IS possible, and you thought that's what happened (because Moosy's vote showed up in Onegu's vote count, but it wasn't in the voting thread) then your reaction will make more sense, even though Moosy's vote did not impact the lynch. Because you wouldn't have been able to know that he hadn't submitted it earlier, when he thought it WOULD impact the lynch. Like, honestly, if players can submit votes directly to the Mods via PM, without using the voting thread, my suspicion of you will go down dramatically.
This was suggested to me by Onegu in the Holy Guardians game as a way for Scum to swap their votes around EoD. In hindsight it makes little sense for Scum to have done that in this situation, but I was assuming the Final Vote Count posted was correct and that this is what happened.
I had the same reaction you are having when Onegu suggested this to me. It still seems like something that shouldn't be allowed.
It was an over reaction to a weird voting mistake, pretty simple.
On July 17 2015 06:18 Fidei86 wrote:
TickTock has said a bunch of weird things. Top amongst those is wanting to get a medic save on his most scum read player. I'm also still upset that he said that my vote on Sulfurus was somehow ninja, when I telegraphed it a mile in advance. Finally, his voting on Scott then coming off was just bizarre. I don't see a reason to move off a scum read and onto someone you'd been town reading at certain points, just to "make things interesting".
You know that isn't what I said, why are you pushing that out of proportion? I pointed out that you had no mention of Sulf in your filter before this post, we even discussed this earlier.
On July 13 2015 02:32 Fidei86 wrote:
@n00bking I'm down for that. I'd rather lynch a lurker than Moosy. At least Moosy is here and semi-willing to engage. There's still a few hours before deadline, but right now I'd lynch Scott and/or Sulfur and/or NHM without hesitation.
At best you can say you sheeped n00b and HtS on the Sulf lynch.
What is your opinion of SW Fidei?
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As much as I want to hear from TJ I'm actually pretty down to lynch SW or Scott at the moment.
For now SW takes priority for me.
## Vote: silentwarrior
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I'm also getting more and more concerned that Grok is not really trying to solve the game.
He has stated multiple times that he "doesn't have any actual scumreads apart from Ghandi" yet I don't see him trying to do anything about it.
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On July 17 2015 16:26 Tictock wrote:
I'm also getting more and more concerned that Grok is not really trying to solve the game.
He has stated multiple times that he "doesn't have any actual scumreads apart from Ghandi" yet I don't see him trying to do anything about it.
It's my first forum mafia game (only previous mafia experience is playing a few rounds of IRL mafia with friends who were mostly first timers). I can spot contradictions and flaws with other peoples analysis, but I'm having a hard time figuring out their agenda. I can assure you that I'm trying to figure it out, I'm just not very good at it yet.
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On July 17 2015 07:14 scott31337 wrote:And don't give me that TMI crap - if it's a vet setup (mafia knows) they 99.9% RB their shot - and there was no d2/d3 vigi shot - so... Don't out unless you have a red check BTW - it's not lylo.
I think your conclusion is sound and I fully agree as I have said.
I find it very interesting that you are concerned about having TMI though...
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@TickTock I don't want to blow this out of proportion, but however you worded it, that's what you implied. And it stands against you. It's not the only reason, or even the main reason I would vote for you, but I do count it against you. I guess it's for others to decide who they believe (or whether they believe both of us...).
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On July 17 2015 19:02 Fidei86 wrote:
@TickTock I don't want to blow this out of proportion, but however you worded it, that's what you implied. And it stands against you. It's not the only reason, or even the main reason I would vote for you, but I do count it against you. I guess it's for others to decide who they believe (or whether they believe both of us...).
You think I am scummy for calling you out on that? That's interesting.
What about me pointing out that there is no mention of Sulf in your filter up until that post (which was after he got called out by n00b) makes me scum?
Tell me more about why you think I am scum this game.
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On July 17 2015 06:18 Fidei86 wrote:
The TJH lynch has been explained at length, and it's almost certainly the correct one. I stopped recording points on him when I got to #7. Also, whereas Ghandi was still trying to solve the game all of D2, TJH did nothing constructive at all.
Actually Fidei what were those 7 points regarding why you think TJ is scum?
Please indulge us.
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Also FIdei, while you are at it. What is your read on SW?
He is also rather absent from your filter.
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To clarify the ninja voting comments, ninja voting is where you actually vote in the vote thread without a corresponding vote or explanation in the game thread. Ninja voting is a scum tell. In normal (traditional role/ruleset) games people cannot PM votes to the moderator. There are exceptions in themed games but that's beyond the scope here. This game is a normal.
On July 17 2015 19:02 Fidei86 wrote:
@TickTock I don't want to blow this out of proportion, but however you worded it, that's what you implied. And it stands against you. It's not the only reason, or even the main reason I would vote for you, but I do count it against you. I guess it's for others to decide who they believe (or whether they believe both of us...).
Haste to judgement (anyone) is generally a scum tell because scum need to find ways to spin things for their agenda. Namely finding a path to mislynches.
The comment for Scott (second sentence) I also don't like because there is a world where a town Scott would say something like that. (If Scott is Mafia its not for that.) Setup speculation is NAI in most cases to begin with but it's not out of the realm of possibilities for a town veteran to say that in a newbie game (where newbies may not grasp mechanics). Even ignoring Scott's meta (which Tictock won't know regardless of alignment) the reaction could also come from any town who is already being scumread widely and this is true for Scott. He could be saying this as mafia but in reality as any alignment.
What I can conclude is there is haste to judgement over the number of posts this has happened on Tictock's filter and not just the post on Scott. He fails to consider the potential town realm for any of the people he's commenting on, and a lack of demonstrating remedy - that is more of a problem when you see that over several posts.
For example I already know Grokken's been doing a lot of parroting which in of itself has bothered me but newbies do that as either alignment but there are a few ways to split the newb behaviour from the scum behaviour. Tictock isn't doing that over the course of several posts. I believe n00bKing mentioned something earlier that was similar but that is what I see here.
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On July 17 2015 16:21 Tictock wrote:
As much as I want to hear from TJ I'm actually pretty down to lynch SW or Scott at the moment.
For now SW takes priority for me.
## Vote: silentwarrior
What in your mind makes SW a stronger candidate than TJH or Scott?
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You explained your issues for SW on page 36 but where is your comparison for why TJH ranks below him? if you've said that just link me to the page.
(on mobile at the airport....)
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@ HtS
I'll post a solid case on SW here in a bit, I am definitely thinking he is the best lynch atm. I have a couple hours before work, I'll get it done before that.
The comment for Scott (second sentence) I also don't like because there is a world where a town Scott would say something like that. (If Scott is Mafia its not for that.) Setup speculation is NAI in most cases to begin with but it's not out of the realm of possibilities for a town veteran to say that in a newbie game (where newbies may not grasp mechanics). Even ignoring Scott's meta (which Tictock won't know regardless of alignment) the reaction could also come from any town who is already being scumread widely and this is true for Scott. He could be saying this as mafia but in reality as any alignment.
You make a good point, I had the same thought but I wanted to see any further reactions from Scott. To me I just thought it was interesting that his mind even went to that as being TMI. I had the same thought, drew the same conclusion, but never once did it occur to me that making that statement/argument could be considered TMI. So him commenting on it shows that his mind is already considering TMI, but you do make a solid point that a paniked Towny could have that same thought.
As for TJ.
So the biggest thing besides the points I made at the top of pg 37, here. Is that TJ is like being universally pushed as scum, but that hardly anyone is making a real case on him. Before I started to rethink my read on TJ, Ghandi was the only one to say TJ was a bad lynch. So realistically it's pretty much the entire thread vs TJ right now (+ Show Spoiler +I still don't mind seeing him lynched as the game stands, but I understand you can't take my word for that
It REALLY bugs me the nobody is even really saying why TJ is scum anymore. That is probably the biggest reason why I don't feel comfortable lynching him atm.
Not at all important, you prob don't even want to read it...
+ Show Spoiler +Also just FYI, I think I may be picking up some frequencies from your Tin Foil Hat, kus I'm starting to think along the same line. I'll talk about this more later this phase.
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One other point in regards to TJ I wasn't quite able to articulate before.
Even if TJ is scum, he is still only half the team remaining. Clearly in this world TJ's partner buses TJ for the town cred and tries to keep pushing. So I would just like to make the effort to look for his teammate if TJ is in fact scum.
That world still doesn't fully make sense to me though, like TJ has been around enough to know that if he is scum he needs to make some kinda effort. One person taking on 6 Town plus whatever blue powers we are able to keep using to our advantage... That is a ballsy scumplay. In a world where TJ is scum and getting bussed, the final scum has nerves of steel to try and take down the rest of town solo.
If that is the world that we live in... *shivers*
Much more likely that is TJ were scum he would have already claimed or something to throw out as much chaos from his death as possible, but here TJ isn't even taking that option...
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Well the problem with TJ aside from his D1 play is that he also keeps piping in saying he's going to deliver stuff, at least Scott's done that to some extent and furthermore based on the content that already exists n00b's made several tie-ins to association cases (so lynching TJH can be argued as a lynch for information regardless of alignment yet there's a stronger case if he is independent most scummy) where TJ IS the common denominator plus the voting analysis implicates him to some degree.
Point is, there are layers of behaviour that already indicate he's mafia and as for engaging him (or updating with new information), as long as he's AFK the previous stances aren't really going to go away.
As for the point on scum making some sort of effort, as for how scum behaves, here's the thing, some can lurk if they see townies tunnelled on each other because they are more or less doing the job for him. There definitely have been student games where the townies were so tunnelled on each other that scum were able to coast and stay under the radar regardless of their own activity. Optimal mafia activity is - or should be - fluid which is why I say that - esepcially in newbie game where the average activity is lower anyhow - activity itself isn't necessarily going to be a scum tell, but can supplment his past behaviour and the current state of the game.
Also going for TJ's partner doesn't make sense when you don't know TJ's alignment and when you seem to be less convinced of it. (unless that's what you meant by the third paragraph)
If you think SW is independently scummy and the most scummy that's one thing OR since there's a flipped mafia if you think there's enough association there to implicate him then that's a separate issue.
As for Ghandi saying that TJ is a bad lynch, that also doesn't mean he's right either. He admitted he might not have had the best grip on reads and especially if he wasn't a blue role where he could have had access to more perfect information. His sentiment was honest, but it's not always going to guarantee he's accurate.
My VCA was 50/50 on SW, but I need to review the points that n00b also brought up.
You do have a point on how "everyone is willing to lynch him" and how that creates some doubt but you also have to look into those sheeping for bad reasons or whether the evidence that is already there is powerful enough. Furthermore, with 10 players in the game, if TJ is scum, and with only one other scummer left, what choice does the remaining scummer have? I don't think making a ballsy play is relevant. Even if TJ were town, there's a crazy amount of people screwing up for that to happen, and the everyone wanting to lynch TJH argument, well it's also still pretty early in the day and others have yet to chime in.
This is not to say that exploring pushing SW is wrong but I think you are discounting TJH for the wrong reasons.
If there were say 9 players left, 3 of which were unflipped scum and then you have everyone piling onto one player, that point might have more validity.
As for TJ's AFKness, I would expect him to show up at some point and explain himself, answer the questions that are in the thread and look for mafia or suggest alternatives if he isn't one of them.
TLDR - the scummers need to be sought out separately before you make associations. You can make pre-associative cases for information but that should not be the brunt of the basis for the lynch. Cases can also be built on layers and not just one massive post (that's what I gathered you were implying from your use of the word case) and scum behaviour is WIFOM/fluid - you cant assume esp in a newbie game that a certain alignment will lurk or not (given your comment "needs to make some kina of effort")
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In any case I'm gone for awhile...I'll be back when I'm settled Stateside.
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Time for a super fun summary post and case!
I started off D3 saying that SW and Scott are my top scum reads with TJ somewhere behind them.
TJHuggins - Whats up with this guy?
The more I've talked about why I'm unsure of TJ the more I've doubted my scum read on him. He clearly looks really bad, but the pieces aren't falling into place for him to be scum to me. I've made extensive posts on him already so just read them if you somehow missed them.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 17 2015 15:41 Tictock wrote:Alright so my full thoughts on TJ. This is sorta a filter dive / explanation of the evolution of my read. in posts like this I usually spoiler the quotes I'm referring too to keep my posts from ballooning too badly. + Show Spoiler +On July 11 2015 11:06 TJHuggins wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2015 07:29 Fidei86 wrote:On July 11 2015 07:02 Half the Sky wrote:
YAY confirmed town <3 If only posting first did somehow make you confirmed town. That would sure make this game a lot easier So that everyone knows, the only players I know in the game are scott and NHM. I tunnelled scott pretty hard in the game we played together (Holy Guardians) but he was actually town. I null read NHM in HGand he was mafia, then town read him in Himalayas and he was town. I've also chatted a fair bit to HTS, but I don't know how she plays mafia. Yo I have no clue wtf those acronyms mean can u put like Nydushermain (NHM) the first time you use an acronym so I can understand what you're talking about? Who is HTS? On a game note, I think it's pretty good if we all say like what our mafia background 1) I don't know anyone except for nydus and 2) i always judge my reads on people against a background of their experience (e.g. easier to read someone new to mafia based on little things they do). I have played video mafia on DailyMafia for almost two years and have never played forum mafia before. I am basically a god. I am in a clan called the elo angels because im so good and my elo is so high. My day job involves working with and for lawyers every day so i think about thinks pretty logically and might write formally at some points based on my mood. In video mafia I usually pick up on and push on (sometimes minor) logical inconsistencies and ive noticed ive been tunnelling a bit too hard lately so that may happen this game. My only read so far is that Half the Sky is spamming. [purple]Also it allowed if i just put every post I type in purple so taht you guys always know its me?[/purple] TJ's opener was decent, he asks people to share their mafia experience which is a decent place to start in a newbie game. He makes some claims about being a good player with solid video mafia experience and explains that he works with lawyers. Regardless of if that is posturing or legit I think it is safe to assume that TJ is a fairly smart player and should be accounted as one. This initially led me to scum lean on TJ for 3 reasons. 1) He was scum reading Moosy without really trying to look for town rational behind Moosy's play. + Show Spoiler +On July 12 2015 09:57 TJHuggins wrote:I agree with most about what has been said about Moosy. I'm trying to read this game similar to how I would read someone in video mafia (whether or not that is going to work remains to be seen). One way people often get on my "radar" if you will is by dropping sort of key phrases or acting in a certain way after being called out. In my first few months of playing, sometimes this scenario would happen: A particular player, who may be lurking, or just doesn't sound the same (voice tone, pattern, activeness, etc.) would get pinged out by another player who would say that they "feel different this game" or ask "why they're not playing the same as X game they played with them in." In some of these cases, the person would respond back by saying some variation of the phrase "I'm trying to switch up my play this game" or "I'm trying something new this game." I started to realize that when someone came back with this response most of the time they ended up being a mafia trying to cover up for there change in playstyle due to the change in alignment, or sometimes it was just an excuse to lurk e.g. "I'm going to try to sit back and listen and try to get town reads this game instead of trying to pressure the mafia to see how it works." I got a similar feeling looking back at what Moosy said (the quote that many have already noted), though I'll admit I didn't catch it the first time. One thing that I did catch, which I thought was kind of odd, is the quote below, though I'm not quite sure what it means yet. Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 02:27 MoosyDoosy wrote:On July 12 2015 01:49 TJHuggins wrote:My initial reads so far is that i am town leaning on Fidei. I like the things he said in relation to spamming, and I think that him relating the perspective to a previous game where he was town feels like he's looking at the game from the perspective of a town. When he responded to HTS regarding talking about anti-spam being easy, he seems genuine. Or maybe it's just because I like his writing. No clue. My initial scum read is Grokken. It's nothing all that strong but I'm getting a wierd feeling about the things he's posted. To me it feels like he is trying to find ways to participate and seem town by chiming in now and again but really has no clue what to write about. On July 11 2015 09:36 Grokken wrote:On July 11 2015 09:32 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
My blood sense is telling me to lynch everyone who knows what theyre doing We should listen to this guy, he seems to know what he is doing. On July 11 2015 13:27 Grokken wrote:On July 11 2015 10:44 NydusHerMain wrote:
Hi, back home. You guys are fucking boring me.
##Vote: Fidei
I don't like the way this guy posts early Can you elaborate on this? What in particular is it that you don't like? I think that one sentence posts that appear to contribute to the game and don't really offer anything just kind of irk me the wrong way. I guess it's worth noting he did write that thing about Dota as well which was also one sentence but that's neither here nor there when it comes to the game I think. When I went back and read the post about him showing off his dota stats that actually reads to me a bit more towny now that I think about it, so not really sure. just an initial read. I don't agree with this but let's see what Ghandi says. It's a pretty innocuous post on it's face, but what stood out for me is that he is deferring to Ghandi before making judgment. But Ghandi's role in the context of the quoted posts is so minor that I can't think what he could possibly add to the conversation that would in turn color your judgment on Grokken's alignment. In fact, I never even mentioned Ghandi in my post. If he disagrees, ok, but why is he saying he needs to wait and see what Ghandi says? Not sure if I want to lynch him today, but he's on my radar. I still want to hear more. Show nested quote +On July 12 2015 08:56 Fidei86 wrote:
You said about ten posts ago that you were going to be town-hunting at first. Now you're saying that you're scum-hunting. Which is it?? I think you're reaching a bit here. This post seems so opposite to everything else you've written this game. What gives? On July 12 2015 23:33 TJHuggins wrote:Right now I'm at the point where I feel comfortable enough to ##vote MoosyDoosy. (reasons here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/488742-newbie-student-mafia-xii?page=10#191)I woke up this morning to see more posts from MD that read scum to me. I didn't think you were even allowed to vote for yourself. To me I haven't seen any protown content coming out of any of his posts, and his recent ones seem blatantly anti-town. And what really stands with me is that these are posts from someone who claims to apparently have been unanimously townread by all players but one in some recent previous forum mafia game. See his post on July 11 2015 at 16:30, ("I was an earnest townie last Newbie Student Mafia game with a monster filter. :3 Besides ruXxar everyone pretty much knew I was a townie which is why I want to change things up here and make things interesting.") I'm not buying it that this is a result of you switching up your play. 2) He added Sulf into his scum list without ever talking about him, he spent decent effort giving his other scum reads. Actually TJ never explains why Sulf showed up in this list. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2015 06:31 TJHuggins wrote:
Figured I would post where I am at before EOD (for obvious reasons). Here's a scum list for me right now in order:
1. MoosyDoosy
2. Sulfuras
3. Grokken
Scott, NHM, and silentwarrior are all in a 3rd category for me which includes players that haven't impressed me with their content and have not left any last impact on me. Might be mafia, might be town. I would rather wait until day 2 to deal with this group since it may give them more time to provide content for me to figure out their alignment. Personally, I'd rather kill someone whos acting scummy than someone whos just a crap shoot (actually if this were video mafia I would pressure them and force them to talk but I can't really do that here.)
If at EOD 2 I still have nothing on those three, I would advocate to shooting, cop checking, lynching them. I would caution against vig shooting or cop checking any of the lurkers this night because I don't think it will really help progress our scum leads much. A vig shot is better saved on a clearly scummy person (same logic as above) and cop check better on someone whos a bit more active.
3) His reaction to EoD. + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2015 07:03 TJHuggins wrote:
Wait what... the vote count was changed after the day ended. This is some shitty modding. On July 13 2015 07:05 TJHuggins wrote:
I was refreshing the voting thread and never saw the change? Why was it even included in the first place if it wasn't allowed? That's silly. On July 13 2015 07:11 TJHuggins wrote:
Wow. Mod-error in town's favor. I'll take it. On July 13 2015 07:14 TJHuggins wrote:
I so strongly felt that MD is the most obvious mafia there could possible be... I was going to be so mad if Sulfuras flipped town. Now I'm not so sure since sulfuras was voting on MD. I need to reread Sulfuras posts to see why he was voting on MD. On July 13 2015 07:15 TJHuggins wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 07:13 Half the Sky wrote:On July 13 2015 07:11 TJHuggins wrote:
Wow. Mod-error in town's favor. I'll take it. We pointed that out in page 15. Nothing was changed after the fact. I'd have responded to you but some mods modkill if you post after deadline and as a moderator myself I didn't want to chance that. You pointed that out but none the less his vote was included in the voting thread for quite some time both before and after. I thought that perhaps it was frowned upon but no strictly forbidden. The fact that it was not corrected until after the time in the day ended is unacceptable imo. I feel very strongly about the integrity of games that I am in and it just annoys me when something like this happens. On July 13 2015 07:21 TJHuggins wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2015 07:16 KelsierSC wrote:On July 13 2015 07:14 TJHuggins wrote:
I so strongly felt that MD is the most obvious mafia there could possible be... I was going to be so mad if Sulfuras flipped town. Now I'm not so sure since sulfuras was voting on MD. I need to reread Sulfuras posts to see why he was voting on MD. I can give you a hint + Show Spoiler +also please don't criticise mods the way you did, they run games for us and it isn't easy. The mistake was made: that's fine. Everyone makes mistakes. To retroactively correct the mistake after the day ends instead of leaving it as is? Unacceptable from a game integrity standpoint. But we got a mafia; it's whatever. I get passionate about lynches. I wanted to push my scumread as soon as I jumped into the game so right as D2 began I put my vote on TJ. Unfortunately TJ has basically stopped playing since D1 ended, so any pressure information this vote may have gotten was simply non existent. Now I found this AFK to be fairly NAI. We know TJ is the boyfriend of NHM who clearly had something come up in RL to need to replace out. It seems perfectly reasonable to assume that this could be affecting TJ as well, and he even suggests this is the case. + Show Spoiler +On July 14 2015 09:24 TJHuggins wrote:
I am dealing with someone that is taking priority in real life right now so I do not have time to write out a big post. I will give the essential information that I can provide to town tomorrow. probably.
Towards to end of D2 I decided it was best to not let my vote ride on an AFK person, so I moved my vote around a bit. After the D2 flip I decided to re-evaluate my reads. I realized #3 of my reasons to scum read TJ was probably more of a town sign than a scum sign. If TJ is a halfway decent player he would realize this reaction would get him easily scum read, and it would be very easy for him to vent that anger in scum QT over In-Game. I began reading into TJ's promise of important info and subsequent refusal to talk about it N2 as very probable signs that he had a role claim if the votes got bad enough on him. Him not wanting to talk about it N2 is understandable as no blue should ever out themselves during night phase. At this point I figured that if I was thinking TJ might be a role here, then if he was indeed town then mafia could piece that together themselves. Thus I suggested TJ might be a decent medic save. I said that only half seriously (and whoever medic did save, gj) and as I breadcrumbed in my next post I was half just hoping to WIFOM mafia into not NKing TJ. Of course TJ might really just be using this promise to buy himself time. Though I think a scum fake claiming like that would be near suicide, so I decided to go with my gut. Points 1 & 2 have remained valid scum tells in my mind, which is why TJ is still pretty high up on my scum reads. Point #1 maybe isn't super solid though, TJ did give ok reasons for his read and he actively pushed MD a little regarding it. Now TJ clearly has clearly had an opportunity already today to post, but failed to do anything meaningful. So if I'm right about him being a role I've effectively forced him to claim. Part of me doesn't like that, but at this point I think TJ has forced that on himself given the way he's played the past few phases. I'm interested if anyone else has better reasons to think TJ is scum other than what I've mentioned here. On July 17 2015 23:19 Tictock wrote:As for TJ. So the biggest thing besides the points I made at the top of pg 37, here. Is that TJ is like being universally pushed as scum, but that hardly anyone is making a real case on him. Before I started to rethink my read on TJ, Ghandi was the only one to say TJ was a bad lynch. So realistically it's pretty much the entire thread vs TJ right now ( + Show Spoiler +I still don't mind seeing him lynched as the game stands, but I understand you can't take my word for that ), that doesn't feel right for a lynch on scum to me. It REALLY bugs me the nobody is even really saying why TJ is scum anymore. That is probably the biggest reason why I don't feel comfortable lynching him atm. Not at all important, you prob don't even want to read it... + Show Spoiler +Also just FYI, I think I may be picking up some frequencies from your Tin Foil Hat, kus I'm starting to think along the same line. I'll talk about this more later this phase. On July 17 2015 23:39 Tictock wrote:
One other point in regards to TJ I wasn't quite able to articulate before.
Even if TJ is scum, he is still only half the team remaining. Clearly in this world TJ's partner buses TJ for the town cred and tries to keep pushing. So I would just like to make the effort to look for his teammate if TJ is in fact scum.
That world still doesn't fully make sense to me though, like TJ has been around enough to know that if he is scum he needs to make some kinda effort. One person taking on 6 Town plus whatever blue powers we are able to keep using to our advantage... That is a ballsy scumplay. In a world where TJ is scum and getting bussed, the final scum has nerves of steel to try and take down the rest of town solo.
If that is the world that we live in... *shivers*
Much more likely that is TJ were scum he would have already claimed or something to throw out as much chaos from his death as possible, but here TJ isn't even taking that option...
Like, he really could be scum here I'm just having a hard time believing that world right now. I'd rather not spend all today beating a dead horse if nothing else.
scott31337 - Playing to a win condition?
Meta Read: Meh - inconclusive. + Show Spoiler +
I'm used to Scott participating as town a lot more, but I've honestly only played one real game with him in Holy Guardians. Scott was in the first 2 newbie games I played in, but was lynched D1 in both those games. If I had to compare Scott's play here to any of those games it would be NSW IX where scott got himself Mislynched as town D1 for being unable to convince town that he wasn't scum after a weird mistake early in the phase.
I've honestly never seen Scott's scum meta, so at best I can say Scott is town from my meta read on him, but that's a pretty poor read.
Typically my response when someone posts very little is to take their posts much more seriously. So lets try that with Scott
D1: Literally one post, and it sucked. Also failed to vote... very unusual for Scott imo.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2015 01:02 scott31337 wrote:
Good Morning... Let me wake up a bit more and re-read, but I don't see a whole lot to go on so far that sticks out at me - except a slight town lean on Fidei.
N1: Looking better. Was the first to go ahead and call everyone on the Sulf wagon Town, pushed me for suggesting MD be a Cop check. His EoD apology and Reaction posts are NAI.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2015 03:03 scott31337 wrote:
I'm so sorry I forgot to vote guys - deadline and other things blew right by me. Let me catch up and post my thoughts. On July 14 2015 03:06 scott31337 wrote:
I just saw the GF got lynched - nniiccee
That's a nice vote count too - gives us a boatload of information. On July 14 2015 03:52 scott31337 wrote: FINAL VOTE COUNT Sulfurus(4):Half the Sky, Fidei86, Kelsier SC, NoobkingMoosyDoosy(3): Grokken, TJHuggins, Sulfurus NydusHerMain (1): silentwarrior Fidei86(1): NydusHerMain Not Voting(4): WonnaPlay, scott31337, GhandiEAGLE. MoosyDoosy I mean I have to believe everyone on Sulf is town - with HtS at the top. I'm going to re-read every one on Moosy. TT replaced NHM. Welcome ol' buddy On July 14 2015 10:37 scott31337 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2015 06:55 Tictock wrote:On July 14 2015 03:52 scott31337 wrote: FINAL VOTE COUNT Sulfurus(4):Half the Sky, Fidei86, Kelsier SC, NoobkingMoosyDoosy(3): Grokken, TJHuggins, Sulfurus NydusHerMain (1): silentwarrior Fidei86(1): NydusHerMain Not Voting(4): WonnaPlay, scott31337, GhandiEAGLE. MoosyDoosy I mean I have to believe everyone on Sulf is town - with HtS at the top. I'm going to re-read every one on Moosy. TT replaced NHM. Welcome ol' buddy This is probably very solid. Very unlikely that mafia buss their teammate in this situation when MD is another option. The only situation where things get tricky is if MD is in fact mafia as well here... Seems unlikely to me, but also means MD is an ok Cop check. Why is MD a cop check? Please explain more from your reasoning.
D2: Basically says nothing. The vote on TJ with no explanation besides "I don't wanna be modkilled" looks like shit. Another promise to be active, with no follow-up.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 14 2015 10:42 scott31337 wrote:
I'm off in left field in this game but I think we almost have it solved - Sorry I'm not contributing much. HtS town love gives me a stiffy and normally she's not solid - <3 On July 15 2015 07:18 scott31337 wrote:Yayy I'm dead in the other game so I can concentrate on this one now - I'll do some buttkicking tonight after house cleaning. On July 16 2015 00:25 scott31337 wrote:
I've been really busy as well, but I can't forget to vote this time...We don't need any modkilled townies.
##Vote Tjhuggins
N2: Finally scott posts some reads... too bad they are all terrible, and I mean like really terrible. His top scumread is WP and his reason is basically WP said Scott and Ghandi were scum D1, and Ghandi flipped green... It also looks really bad that Scott now seems to have no opinion on TJ, yet he voted for TJ D2. Seriously, this is like the worst set of reads I've seen this game.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 17 2015 06:17 scott31337 wrote:So having some free time finally - I did some filter diving - HtS is top town and nuff said, even her play is there, not going to bother Fidei looks good too N00bkingas well. Grokken looks a bit better from his explanations- and how he didn't just try to scumread me for my activity and actually looked into explanations - and his wording seems natural to me. He's a townlean for now. WonnaPlay would be the opposite, with top scumming me. "1] Scott - Gets defended by some people, without him having done anything. I think one of the people talking for him is atleast scum, defending scum. It would also explain the post Sulfurus made about "unvalid vote" and would even explain the night kill on Kelsier (if what you guys saying is true about veterans killing Kelsier). He isn't even AFK, but because he's afraid from HtS and therefore he is lurking, which raises alarmbells all over the place for me.. 2] Ghandi - too sketchy for my taste. The reason I don't have Ghandi on my #1 is that his list looks pretty decent. I'd agree on most points with him there, but who knows if he turns around again after that.. Also his conclusion on Scott being town is totally unwarranted. If Scott turns out to be scum, then Ghandi is one aswell. 3] TJH - made some weird posts during the end of the day regarding the votes, but I could see him being legitimately frustrated about his idea of different rules. I do think that HtS made some solid points, which I can't ignore since she was spot on in the last day. He's also very quiet since that day.. " Well we know Ghandi is town now, as well. silentwarrior - He seems to believe in his case, and has some decent points - it could be a mafia case trying to get a mislynch, but I just don't feel that (although he was incorrect) - His posts seem okay for now - he's a null/light town read. Tictock - his last game made me pretty paranoid. He did a quick vote for Wonna (which I don't care for) but there isn't much else that sticks out at me about him. No tunnels either. Null/scumlean Moosy - so he was the other wagon on D1 - There could be that 1% chance that both wagons were scum, but I'm pretty doubtful - so thats something there. He's got some good thoughts in here - and I believe his anger with the d2 vote wasn't "ninja voted" - townlean TJH - Not much here to go on - but one of his latest posts - Show nested quote +On July 16 2015 08:11 TJHuggins wrote:
I reviewed the past few days last night but didn't have time to make a big post. I was going to make one today before the day ended but got home late.
I would have voted for Grokken. I think Ghandi was a mistake. Is pretty bad in my opinion - the votes were pretty interesting at the end - unsure what in his reads have changed either. Null ## Sulfurus / WonnaPlay / Tictock for gamecreds I'll be around for about 2-3 hours (finally!) so if you have any questions or things you'd like me to check, please let me know - but it's going to pretty bad (Multiple job interviews, friend broke his ankle, and help another friend buy/move/fix a car - all things I did not plan - have been affecting my time here - I apologize)
D3: Same pattern of posting so far... Also the point I made earlier about how Scott is worried about having TMI, idk HtS pointed out it could be paranoid towny thinking.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 17 2015 07:14 scott31337 wrote:And don't give me that TMI crap - if it's a vet setup (mafia knows) they 99.9% RB their shot - and there was no d2/d3 vigi shot - so... Don't out unless you have a red check BTW - it's not lylo.
Yea, Scott is a fine lynch today as well. His play just looks like he is coasting and doesn't really seem to care about the game. The 2 things that really point to him being scum to me here are his; 1)vote on TJ D2 with no explanation, and then the sudden indifference to TJ in his reads post. 2) That Scott thought saying there was a medic was TMI when it was a very valid assumption.
silentwarrior - Silent but Deadly?
So I kinda posted my read on SW already, here, as such what follows is moreso my case on him right now.
1) SW's D1 play. He comes into the game and in the space of 10 min makes his only reads of the day. He then solo votes based on those reads almost 24 hours later without really commenting on the rest of the game.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 12 2015 08:23 silentwarrior wrote:
Hey guys, sorry for being late. So I just read trough the thread and here are some of my thoughts now. First, fidei seems like a town read to me right now. He seems to genuienly want to create an enviroment that is good for town. His first post makes this obvious. Have to disagree on his stance however. Imo, most games suffer from people not saying enough than the opposite.
My background is pretty newbie. Have been in a few forum mafia games, but mostly i play IRL. On July 12 2015 08:33 silentwarrior wrote:
Ok, so my first scumread when reading was NydusHerMain. First it was that she voted for fidei, for a post which i feel was very towny. She then didn't explain herself, and hasn't posted anything since that. I will be interested to hear what she says about that when she returns.
I also found some of what moosy said suspicous, but most of that has already been said by noobking, The most scummy thing to me was that he said he wanted to change his play, then wondered how someone could read that as. If you are town one game and then make a point to say that you change your play, then logically you will play as mafia. On July 13 2015 06:04 silentwarrior wrote:
Gonna vote for NydusHerMain. Right now, she isn't saying much at all, and left pretty suspiciously. I would rather her get lynched than MoosyDoosy, since he is actually active and contributing. That helps the town, even if most of what he says is bad and he is still high on my scumlist. However, not saying anything dosen't help much at all.
2) Since I replaced in SW has completely ignored me. If he thought NHM was scummy enough to solo vote D1 why is he not even trying to get a read on me? I literally show up twice in SW's filter, once when he posts a list and my slot is suddenly neutral and once when he directly responds to a post from me.
3) SW flips his read on TJ with literally no explanation. I pointed this out before, but I'll repost the quotes here as well. This just looks like SW is following thread sentiment to me.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 13 2015 08:25 silentwarrior wrote:
I also lean town on TJHuggins, since he posted that sulfurus was his second on scum list. This was also before any of the voting began, though after sulfurus posted that super scummy post and was tagged for it by Half the sky. Still a good townlean for me.
Also, i get a townvibe from wonnaplay.
Of course, I could be all wrong about this, and mafia decided to sacrifice sulfurus, but dont really think so right now. Regardless, those reamaining that I think the mafia is among is : scott31337, GhandiEAGLE, NydusHerMain. One or two of these three are probably mafia. On July 15 2015 04:35 silentwarrior wrote:
EBWOP (accidently hit post)
Here are my views on everyone:
Most likely town:
n00bKing
Half the Sky
Fidei86
MoosyDoosy
Town lean:
Grokken
Neutral:
NydusHerMain/TICKTOCK
WonnaPlay
Scumlean:
scott31337
TJHuggins
Probably scum:
GhandiEAGLE
4) This point me be a little more neutral, but it fits with the "following thread sentiment" notion.
SW's biggest post was his case on Ghandi, however his "case" came well after I had been pinging out Ghandi most of the day and HtS posted a large case on Ghandi as well. Check where this post came in terms of thread sentiment against ghandi.
To give SW credit where it is due, he had pinged out Ghandi himself in this post
On July 14 2015 08:59 silentwarrior wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2015 08:46 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
To sum up
Scummer read is hardest on Grokken,
Town for me definitively is HtS, Scott, and Fidei.
Too many people posting too little (me included, before ~20 minutes ago). Need more activity please. The guy who has contributed the least (scott) is somehow definetly town for you? And your explanation about it is just bullshit, it makes no sense. I smell mafia here.
So his read is consistent, but he is far from the first person to be picking out Ghandi.
I will also note that it is unlikely that SW put together his large post on Ghandi after reading HtS's post, so this could actually be a point in SW's favor.
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@ HtS
I'm not trying to make association cases at all, my post talking about TJ and a scummate was all hypothetical based on a world where TJ is in fact scum. There is definitely some WIFOM in that post, but hopefully not too much.
Like you said, with TJ not providing anything new to go on... there is nothing new to discuss about TJ. That's why I want to look at other people.
If TJ is town he needs to spill the beans on whatever he's withholding. If he's scum he needs to come up with something decent to talk about to get him our from suspicion. If he doesn't change his tune I have no issues with lynching him.
Thus until TJ either gives us something or it is nearing EoD with no word from him... I'm going to spend my time and vote elsewhere.
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EPT
