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Mandatory balance talk:
Balance was greatly in favor of town. It should have been a 1 shot vig and an unaware miller to make it more balanced without changing the game set-up too much. A rb on scum would also have worked, but it would still be in favor of town because it isn't standard that the vigi claims D1.
The reason why a 2-shot vigi is so strong is because town gets 2 extra lynches/information during the night. This means this town got a copcheck and a vigi shot for the first 2 nights. This is way too much.
It could also be balanced with a 1shot vigi on both teams. The miller then could have been made aware. An aware miller counts for a town role. Or practically 0.75 town role, but in theory you should just count it as a full town role. Making it 3 vs 2 in the power role count.
Hosts also need to balance their games around the amount of ml needed. In this normal town there is a scenario that town loses after 5 ml and need only 3 correct lynches... This doesn't make sense. Especially with all the information roles they have. There are 10 townies and 3 have roles, that leaves 7 people and town can ml 4 out of those without losing? That's a big no.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
At least the cop made the checks that mafia would have handpicked themselves on both nights. Some cracking cop play.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On February 11 2015 23:27 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 23:23 marvellosity wrote:
mafia should have had a roleblocker
there's nothing more or less to say about it Roleblocker instead of a framer or in addition to a framer? I was under the impression that scum should have one less power role than town, or so I thought...
In addition to.
Vigilante is both an *insanely* swingy role (for obvious reasons) and an insanely strong one.
I would personally never include a 2-shot vigi in a 13 player mini. And without a roleblocker too... kinda ouchy.
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On February 11 2015 23:30 marvellosity wrote:
At least the cop made the checks that mafia would have handpicked themselves on both nights. Some cracking cop play.
I like when you talk about me. <3
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Well the N2 check didn't matter so much. But in N1 you checked into the very clear frame target.
LS/rsoultin - this is where the check should be looking N1
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On February 11 2015 23:38 marvellosity wrote:
Well the N2 check didn't matter so much. But in N1 you checked into the very clear frame target.
LS/rsoultin - this is where the check should be looking N1
Kisses
XoXoXo
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On February 11 2015 23:27 Koshi wrote:
Mandatory balance talk:
Balance was greatly in favor of town. It should have been a 1 shot vig and an unaware miller to make it more balanced without changing the game set-up too much. A rb on scum would also have worked, but it would still be in favor of town because it isn't standard that the vigi claims D1.
[...]
It could also be balanced with a 1shot vigi on both teams. The miller then could have been made aware. An aware miller counts for a town role. Or practically 0.75 town role, but in theory you should just count it as a full town role. Making it 3 vs 2 in the power role count. [...]
Okay, these parts, between this and what Marv said on the roleblocker, it's making a bit more sense now once I'm thinking it through. Yeh once the game started, once the miller claims started, that's when I realised that part, but the vig thing would have never gotten through in my mind without the modkills. So much appreciated fleshing this out <3
Yes, I realise vig is swingy. We had two possible setups with a vig that were approved and we opted for this swingier one, maybe I should have gone more conservative (the other setup was 1-shot vig/nerfed medic v a scum RB), but what is done is done, and I do find this helpful going forward. I had read your post on the balance, and I'm not sure where you get the "0.75 town role" but now what you are saying makes sense if you are counting that as another full out PR.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
it's obviously not a full PR, because it doesn't actually do anything. It's a considerably nerfed Innocent Child.
edit: like I got the most mileage possible out of it, because Eden conveniently fakeclaimed before me.
Didn't stop people trying to lynch me later, though.
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On February 11 2015 23:18 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 23:15 Koshi wrote:
Now I need to type something up about the balance. You were vehement in obs and scum QT, but whatever you say, please take this into account when you comment: Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 10:32 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
The 2-shot vigilante was fine, but perhaps mafia should've had a roleblocker. The problem with having a 1-shot vigilante (presuming no medic) is that town can never gain a day by the vig, but if the vig misses they lose a day. By having the vig be a 2-shot, an expert vig could gain a day, a vig that hits once would not gain or lose a day, and a vig that sucks would lose a day. The other blue role from town, the cop, was heavily countered by both a miller and a framer.
The blue roles slightly favoured town, which is fair as the player count (10v3) slightly favours mafia, as the conventional mini size (9) is 7v2. 10v3 is 4 mislynches vs 3 lynches, whereas 7v2 is 3 mislynches vs 2 lynches. The former is easier for mafia as the difference in mislynch to lynch percentage is smaller.
Mafia got very unlucky with both Damdred and sicklucker getting modkilled, as those were potential vigilante shots. This, coupled with Breshke making a game-winning shot on JAT led to the town victory, which marv finalized by a fantastic final day.
Artanis is horrible in balancing games, most people on the balance committee are. This is a cold fact. You can't even argue this fact with me because I would just laugh your arguments away. Almost everything Artanis wrote there is dismissable by other mechanics in this game.
For starters. He uses 7 vs 2 as a standard for small games but that is standard for minis, why he starts balancing a normal small game starting from a mini is beyond me but ok... He also forgets that the this mini standard only works with a doc. The reason why it is a doc is that a docsafe doesn't change the amount of ml needed, it only gives information, so it is just a mechanic that scum needs to work around. This game wasn't a mini, it was a small game.
the standard for small games is 9 vs 3. This means 3 ml and loss for town, but most of the times a doc/veteran/jailer/rb is added into the mix to change it to a 4 ml set-up. With the rb/jailer also being able to stop the scum nk. So a 9 vs 3 set-up with one of the above roles is balanced. Maybe slightly in favor of scum. Let's say 55%
Now every game should start with a 9 vs 3 set-up and 1 protection role. Veteran/rb being the weak protection roles, doc/jailer standard. You also have to understand that each extra role added is good for town. Because being able to claim a role is very strong. Especially if it is a role scum can't leave alive. Every town role = a smaller lynchpool.
Now if we look how this game deviated from that:
cop vs framer (town favored because extra roles, this is slightly town favored)
+1 townie vs 2 shot vig (wtfbbq town favored) *
aware miller (town favored)
* why +1 townie vs 1 shot vig is already townfavored:
Some host add a vigi because they run a 10 vs 3 set-up instead of a 9 vs 3 set-up. The +1 townie is slightly scumfavored because how bigger the game gets the easier it is for scum to hide, but the 1 shot vigi negates this effect completely because town now gets the power to shoot a townie at will. So the +1 townie added in the set-up just means that the worst townie will get shot during the night, while the +1 townie might be a total boss.
Artanis also believes that a town shooting 2 towns is equally balanced as a doc saving one person. But this is already not true. A town vigi shooting 2 towns is way better for town than a doc saving 1 town. A doc saving 1 town means that town sentiment is correct, the saved townie is important.
a town vigi shooting 2 towns is so much better for town because they know they are wrong and their lynchpool gets way smaller. It is insane information. So many games are lost because towns cannot adept their view on the game and mafia can shoot the smart townies away, with a 2 shot vig the mafia nk gets way less valuable. What I want to say is that a 9 vs 3 game with a 2 shot vig isn't terrible. It just makes for a faster game if town is totally wrong. Making it 10 vs 3 and a 2 shot vig so that town can always have 3 ml just proves to me that Artanis is pretty terrible at balancing the game because he doesn't understand how roles and extra information works.
I think that is everything I need to write about the balance of this game. Summary of my 2 posts:
1) Town players played very strong, even with a balanced set-up scum might have lost (75%). I would have been shot anyway because a 1 shot vig is balanced. I was impressed by this town. Kuddos.
2) Hosts need to learn how to balance their games. It just makes me feel better if something very simple is done right, instead of horribly wrong. This game was NOT balanced.
3) I am a fan of anything Artanis does except his balancing.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
I don't think 12 players is any more standard than 13.
e.g. the C9++ setup was made for 13.
edit: Koshi is right though, Artanis didn't factor in at all the huge information benefit you get out of flipping players, regardless of their alignment
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Because the C9++ setup adds in roles and therefore makes it 13.
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Or maybe because there is a chance on a vigi and a chance on not a doc.
I say 9 vs 3 + protection is standard. But I could as easily say 10 vs 3 is standard without protection and then with protection you need to remove a townie. But that sounds weird.
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On February 12 2015 00:06 Koshi wrote:
Artanis is horrible in balancing games, most people on the balance committee are. This is a cold fact.
[...]
2) Hosts need to learn how to balance their games. It just makes me feel better if something very simple is done right, instead of horribly wrong. This game was NOT balanced.
Again, the detail is appreciated. <3
What are your thoughts on the alternative setup that I would have used? Any better or no?
Town: 1-shot vig, with a nerfed medic (no protection 2 nights in a row) v scum RB.
But a sincere comment/suggestion for you. Given your knowledge and experience in the game, I am surprised you wouldn't be on the balance committee yourself. Perhaps teach more of us to balance properly when we approach you with what you may see as a poor setup. Just saying. 
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
Kinda off topic, but C9++ has town winning 15% more often than mafia based on the mafia scum statistics so it probably shouldn't be considered as some type of standard.
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On February 12 2015 00:21 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 00:06 Koshi wrote:
Artanis is horrible in balancing games, most people on the balance committee are. This is a cold fact.
[...]
2) Hosts need to learn how to balance their games. It just makes me feel better if something very simple is done right, instead of horribly wrong. This game was NOT balanced. What are your thoughts on the alternative setup that I would have used? Any better or no? Town: 1-shot vig, with a nerfed medic (no protection 2 nights in a row) v scum RB.
If you play 10 vs 3 this is pretty ok.
1 shot vig negates the +1 townie and gives the power to town on who to shoot.
1 medic save would then again give town a 4ml before loss game.
Scum RB negates the ability for a town lynchbait to simply claim the role and get away with it. So the vigi/doc can't save themselves from the lynch and still be able to shoot/save.
I call this setup slightly in favor of scum because scum can rb medic. You add notifications of RB to balance this, because getting rb on N1 mostly indicates this person is town. But not always obviously.
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On February 12 2015 00:27 kitaman27 wrote:
Kinda off topic, but C9++ has town winning 15% more often than mafia based on the mafia scum statistics so it probably shouldn't be considered as some type of standard.
42.5 vs 57.5 isn't bad if you rng everything. Roles are insane hard to balance. And C9++ can have a lot.
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On February 11 2015 23:23 Half the Sky wrote:
Also Koshi, I want to stress again that:
1 the modkills on 2 potential lynches were 100% justified and there's nothing scum could have done about that
2 setups don't take (potential) modkills into consideration
3 I explained my reasons for wanting a vig in my game
4 the setup was triple-checked
If you want to propose how I could have done the setup, then suggest what you would have done, though I am curious to hear.
Yes, the game was not balanced but the (justified) modkills made it unwinnable for scum in the end. If the setup was triple checked then the guy checking it should not be balancing games though.
On February 11 2015 23:30 marvellosity wrote:
At least the cop made the checks that mafia would have handpicked themselves on both nights. Some cracking cop play.
True, but since everybody basically knew that we had no rb it was obvious that there were other roles and nobody believed the copcheck anyways. Also this not relevant to game balance.
On February 11 2015 23:53 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 23:27 Koshi wrote:
Mandatory balance talk:
Balance was greatly in favor of town. It should have been a 1 shot vig and an unaware miller to make it more balanced without changing the game set-up too much. A rb on scum would also have worked, but it would still be in favor of town because it isn't standard that the vigi claims D1.
[...]
It could also be balanced with a 1shot vigi on both teams. The miller then could have been made aware. An aware miller counts for a town role. Or practically 0.75 town role, but in theory you should just count it as a full town role. Making it 3 vs 2 in the power role count. [...] Okay, these parts, between this and what Marv said on the roleblocker, it's making a bit more sense now once I'm thinking it through. Yeh once the game started, once the miller claims started, that's when I realised that part, but the vig thing would have never gotten through in my mind without the modkills. So much appreciated fleshing this out <3 Yes, I realise vig is swingy. We had two possible setups with a vig that were approved and we opted for this swingier one, maybe I should have gone more conservative (the other setup was 1-shot vig/nerfed medic v a scum RB), but what is done is done, and I do find this helpful going forward. I had read your post on the balance, and I'm not sure where you get the "0.75 town role" but now what you are saying makes sense if you are counting that as another full out PR.
A 2 shot vig in a 13 player game without a rb for scum. Just no. And then even a cop on top of that while scum only gets the weakest possible role with a framer. You cannot count on a miller to make the cops life harder if he is selfaware. The only thing a selfaware miller accomplishes is a near confirmed town and one less person for the cop to worry about.
The other setup seemed way way better at first glance.
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Yeah, the person who thought that a self aware miller is just as annoying for town as an unaware miller makes me smile. Because he clearly thought so looking at this set-up.
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On February 12 2015 00:30 Koshi wrote:
I call this setup slightly in favor of scum because scum can rb medic. You add notifications of RB to balance this, because getting rb on N1 mostly indicates this person is town. But not always obviously.
Last question on balance for you Koshi - notification balances, do hosts tend to split up save or RB notifications to help with balance? I mean if you tell a scummer or a town that they were saved or even tracked (if a tracker obv applied) or something, that could spoil things, I dunno...
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
no you never tell someone they were tracked.
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EPT
