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/in
If you still need one. Otherwise, I can replace
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Not much to go on without wild speculation on people's meta connections and personalities.
From posting interval as it relates to content, I like Geript less. He was pushing a little too hard too fast for either pure pressure or getting anything out of his read if he had one, while still posting at methodical, relatively slow intervals.
He did get to DP to be able to read him very early but it feels mostly like pushing buttons and corresponding reactions to me. Barring any history of reckless responses as scum on DP's part for context, DP feels most likely town. Geript could possibly be scum with one overplayed line DP picked up on, then feeling like he was forced to keep going somewhat like he was. However, it's still more likely to be town on town to me so far.
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On September 21 2013 19:04 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 17:39 ObviousOne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2013 17:27 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 16:31 ObviousOne wrote:On September 21 2013 16:30 VisceraEyes wrote: Relevant: Pandain votes geript prior to posting in thread. Hello town VE! I don't understand what you are implying with 'hello town VE'. If you think it is town of VE to bring this to the thread; why are you giving me shit for making pandain observations? If you are being sarcastic; why do you think it is insignifcant that Pandain votes without thread presence? Explain.P.S. i was expecting over the past 25min or so, for you to be querying me. Considering you "read the game twice"; tried to cast me as a villain along with Koshi; and then made a hoo-haa about wanting to talk to me. Im off; but would like an answer to the above. VE said he was going to bed. Then he presumably couldn't sleep. [Scum sleep very well FYI] QED he's town! You picked on Pandain and then said goodbye. Then you came back wondering why I was picking on you for what you deemed to be similar. [Also this hit and run tactic you're playing is disconcerting] QED you're less town than VE! I don't know if you're scum but I certainly don't have a town read on you based on what you've done so far. Your answer about it being a binary idea threw me off, I thought there would be something more to it, so I am not really satisfied with the answer. Then again, I didn't really expect an intricate answer either, so I'm still confused: Why Pandain, what made Pandain special that you sought to look him up / keep tabs on him based on the pre-game? Did you just notice it to bring it up? Correct. Show nested quote +Was there a motivation or other information you have that leads you to believe that Pandain is someone worth paying attention to right at the beginning of the game? If I thought he was worth paying absolute attention to, I would have put a vote. It was an observation, to prompt him to contribute. It worked somewhat. He laid an unjustified vote. Show nested quote +We have more information now since some time has passed, so I'm mostly curious about what it was at that point in time that had you preoccupied with him. When I came back to the thread, and started skimming because everyone sounded like they were butthurt instead of hunting scum. Then I remembered Kush sayiung me/Pandain should be modkilled. Then I coudlnt recall pandain making a post.. which made me uneasy. I can't speak for everyone; but I was getting pissed off waiting for MZ to start the game. All I wanted to do was make a fisrt post, and then proceed to lurk because it was saturday day, and I had shit to do. Instead I had to keep sitting at the comp for liek1 hr, pressing F5.. In my frustration i made that post "..."; considering pandain copied me, i figured he felt the same way as opposed to trolling. Hence, to my surprise he was not quick at the bat to make a post; nor a post throughout the first couple hours. Henceforth me calling him out. Correct; but the original question was stupid and pointless. So you got a stupid and pointless answer. Shit in, Shit out.
It struck me as a little bit odd about Pandain; to me it makes you look mildly suspicious, and Pandain too. You, because you called him out a bit too soon (2.5 hours gap can have many perfectly reasonable explanations) meaning he had an extra chance to make a good excuse, and the fact that you noticed it then has little value to town. Him, because he did what he did followed by a vote without posting.
Other than that you look town to me Mocsta, so I suppose it could just be a preference thing about prompting or not and timing. Your posting pattern does establish a certain believable impatience anyhow
Still waiting to read Pandain, but soon putting my placeholder vote on him.
I'm a bit concerned about VE, but can't put a finger on it. Maybe a mix of trying to carefully establish as town and putting a measured amount of emotion in it. Does anyone who has played with him before get any tell about whether his pattern seems more or less deliberate than his usual town? I had this feeling early and it's lingering
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On September 21 2013 23:48 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 23:31 Zaragon wrote: Does anyone who has played with him before get any tell about whether his pattern seems more or less deliberate than his usual town? I had this feeling early and it's lingering I have a much stronger town read on DP >> VE. Originally, I thought VE looked really good for pointing out the Geript "manipulation" stuff. But having read the game I dont think the point is that valid. -> its a 50/50 call to me whether it was scum manipulation or town arrogance. Now, VE is back to null for me.
I dont get why me pointing out pandain is scummy. I get the point about instructing him to "post".. BUT.. would i not just do this in the QT? seriously, as scum, i dont think there is town cred to be gained by avoiding the current conversation (Geript/DP) to bring that to the fore.
My reasoning went more like this: from your position (as town) Pandain could be scum or town. If you had an itch about him based on his "..." and lack of posting, and if you had given it more time, he, as scum, would have had less opportunity to give an explanation or excuse. He might even have posted hours later and skipped past that point for his first post, and then would have read significantly more scummy, which you gave him an opportunity to avoid. Meaning that then you could be scum and him town. I'm not saying it makes me particularly suspicious of you now, especially given Pandain's reaction (or lack thereof) so far. Makes it understandable for you to call him out, since it tells me something about his play regardless of alignment.
About VE, I think if geript and DP are both town (which isn't at all a given) his play makes sense as scum, otherwise not, all I have on him besides that is the feeling about his posting I described earlier. If people who have played with him before are comfortable with his posting pattern and emotional level, that means it's probably nothing.
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I didn't read that Wave post as scummy. Ambiguous, but all the possibilities behind it that I could read are towny or neutral. Unless all it is is a kind of added pressure on DP only going along with Geript, but that feels like the least likely possibility to me so far. I'll wait for the explanation before considering commenting more
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Done reading filters for the night. Marvellosity feels town. yamato77 felt very town, but one long first post relatively late in the day can easily be very pro-town scum so I'll put him as neutral until I have a pattern to go on. Pandain same deal, except with less initial town feeling and thus more leaning towards scum.
I'm thinking I'd prefer a lynch to generate information day 2, as much as it pains me to skip non-contributors.
I'll elaborate and look at links if it's still relevant by tomorrow, now I need sleep. Have fun guys
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I don't read either Tofu or DP as scum right now. The problem with that is, they could both be, playing off each other, as it would be a good time for that. Still, I'm going to assume they're town for now since the other line of thinking is currently not useful. Especially since Tofu suspects VE, who I have had a bad feeling about all game.
I don't see any other reasoning for going after DP at this point as scum, I hope DP will elaborate about why he thinks there is.
Oh and from earlier:
On September 22 2013 09:26 ObviousOne wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 09:23 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:20 ObviousOne wrote:On September 22 2013 09:17 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:05 ObviousOne wrote: Do you have thoughts about that post or no? It says almost nothing. You're so adorable. What does it mean to you that it says almost nothing? That's the point of the game. So you think only scum posts like that?
On September 22 2013 09:40 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 09:37 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:34 raynpelikoneet wrote: So JAT if someone posts something that's mostly fluff your thoughts on it are "big deal?", why? Because in my experience town does it all the time, too. It's not that it doesn't matter but if you want to convince me the dude is scum you should give me more reasons. Yeah you are right. It does not mean he is scum. But it's a post that serves no purpose. It says nothing. You should be by default curious of his intentions for making the post. It helps you getting a better read on him and it helps out people getting a better read on you. Townies should care about finding scum, bad posts should be called out.
I wrote exactly what I thought. That it is more likely to come from scum. Does that outright eliminate him as town? No. But since fuck-all is happening I'm trying to make something happen. So you have completely avoided answering this question. It's kind of important to note that the question wasn't important, the fact that you haven't answered it yet though is very interesting. Do you think I'm scum?
It was a bedtime post. But I'm glad you made some kind of use of it, even if only Rayn comes out looking slightly scum from it, to me. Rayn, would you say that your posts have generally had more substance than the one you pointed out? If we assume that asking what someone else thinks is not substance.
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EBWOP: last quote came apart, it was from ObviousOne
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Tofu feels like he's genuinely coming in and joining the discussion by past links in the thread, and his appraisal of that discussion feels similar to my own, his approach and attention is just slightly different. I don't have a strong town read on him, just what he's doing feels town (unless, as I said, he's playing off DP with both being scum, I'm only setting that aside because its likelihood and usefulness are pretty low atm)
My filter already has my read on VE, and him dropping off almost completely since hasn't made me less suspicious. Only reason I wasn't comfortable going after him harder was because I'm new and have zero meta to go on about his posting habit, method and emotional level.
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On September 22 2013 20:01 marvellosity wrote: Zaragon, your filter has basically nothing of substance on VE, other than "feels", and "potentially a mafia VE might play this way if both these dudes are town".
Elaborate please.
That's what it boils down to. His timing and input with his posts at that time seemed very deliberate, acting as catalyst for a town vs town fight and at the same time establishing himself as being on DP's side. Even his emotional responses felt too deliberate to me; I can't define that as it's mostly gut. It's day one, so any read--for me at least--works under the assumption that someone is linked to someone who is likely either town or scum. Any suspicion I have is still weak, and I won't pretend otherwise. I missed my window to go after him with sharper phrasings.
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On September 22 2013 20:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 19:36 Zaragon wrote:I don't read either Tofu or DP as scum right now. The problem with that is, they could both be, playing off each other, as it would be a good time for that. Still, I'm going to assume they're town for now since the other line of thinking is currently not useful. Especially since Tofu suspects VE, who I have had a bad feeling about all game. I don't see any other reasoning for going after DP at this point as scum, I hope DP will elaborate about why he thinks there is. Oh and from earlier: On September 22 2013 09:26 ObviousOne wrote:On September 22 2013 09:23 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:20 ObviousOne wrote:On September 22 2013 09:17 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:05 ObviousOne wrote: Do you have thoughts about that post or no? It says almost nothing. You're so adorable. What does it mean to you that it says almost nothing? That's the point of the game. So you think only scum posts like that? On September 22 2013 09:40 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 09:37 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:34 raynpelikoneet wrote: So JAT if someone posts something that's mostly fluff your thoughts on it are "big deal?", why? Because in my experience town does it all the time, too. It's not that it doesn't matter but if you want to convince me the dude is scum you should give me more reasons. Yeah you are right. It does not mean he is scum. But it's a post that serves no purpose. It says nothing. You should be by default curious of his intentions for making the post. It helps you getting a better read on him and it helps out people getting a better read on you. Townies should care about finding scum, bad posts should be called out. I wrote exactly what I thought. That it is more likely to come from scum. Does that outright eliminate him as town? No. But since fuck-all is happening I'm trying to make something happen. So you have completely avoided answering this question. It's kind of important to note that the question wasn't important, the fact that you haven't answered it yet though is very interesting. Do you think I'm scum? It was a bedtime post. But I'm glad you made some kind of use of it, even if only Rayn comes out looking slightly scum from it, to me. Rayn, would you say that your posts have generally had more substance than the one you pointed out? If we assume that asking what someone else thinks is not substance. Yes i am saying that my posts have had way more substance than the post of yours in question here. How does me saying what i did make me scum? Also what exactly is your read on Pandain / VE and why?
It doesn't make you scum, you have just thrown out a lot of questions and provided few reads apart from a bit on FT. Which gives little material for anyone to read you, which is slightly scummy at this point.
On September 22 2013 20:50 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 20:45 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 20:01 marvellosity wrote: Zaragon, your filter has basically nothing of substance on VE, other than "feels", and "potentially a mafia VE might play this way if both these dudes are town".
Elaborate please. That's what it boils down to. His timing and input with his posts at that time seemed very deliberate, acting as catalyst for a town vs town fight and at the same time establishing himself as being on DP's side. Even his emotional responses felt too deliberate to me; I can't define that as it's mostly gut. It's day one, so any read--for me at least--works under the assumption that someone is linked to someone who is likely either town or scum. Any suspicion I have is still weak, and I won't pretend otherwise. I missed my window to go after him with sharper phrasings. So.. what do you make of VE dropping his issues with Geript once I presented a counter-point?
Felt like softening his play as scum. Makes sense as town as well, though, it really was the sort of discussion where you can have an emotional reaction about something you might reread later. If he hadn't been a significant part in inciting the emotional part, it would be neutral; as is, suspicious
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On September 22 2013 21:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 21:22 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 20:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 19:36 Zaragon wrote:I don't read either Tofu or DP as scum right now. The problem with that is, they could both be, playing off each other, as it would be a good time for that. Still, I'm going to assume they're town for now since the other line of thinking is currently not useful. Especially since Tofu suspects VE, who I have had a bad feeling about all game. I don't see any other reasoning for going after DP at this point as scum, I hope DP will elaborate about why he thinks there is. Oh and from earlier: On September 22 2013 09:26 ObviousOne wrote:On September 22 2013 09:23 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:20 ObviousOne wrote:On September 22 2013 09:17 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:05 ObviousOne wrote: Do you have thoughts about that post or no? It says almost nothing. You're so adorable. What does it mean to you that it says almost nothing? That's the point of the game. So you think only scum posts like that? On September 22 2013 09:40 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 09:37 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:34 raynpelikoneet wrote: So JAT if someone posts something that's mostly fluff your thoughts on it are "big deal?", why? Because in my experience town does it all the time, too. It's not that it doesn't matter but if you want to convince me the dude is scum you should give me more reasons. Yeah you are right. It does not mean he is scum. But it's a post that serves no purpose. It says nothing. You should be by default curious of his intentions for making the post. It helps you getting a better read on him and it helps out people getting a better read on you. Townies should care about finding scum, bad posts should be called out. I wrote exactly what I thought. That it is more likely to come from scum. Does that outright eliminate him as town? No. But since fuck-all is happening I'm trying to make something happen. So you have completely avoided answering this question. It's kind of important to note that the question wasn't important, the fact that you haven't answered it yet though is very interesting. Do you think I'm scum? It was a bedtime post. But I'm glad you made some kind of use of it, even if only Rayn comes out looking slightly scum from it, to me. Rayn, would you say that your posts have generally had more substance than the one you pointed out? If we assume that asking what someone else thinks is not substance. Yes i am saying that my posts have had way more substance than the post of yours in question here. How does me saying what i did make me scum? Also what exactly is your read on Pandain / VE and why? It doesn't make you scum, you have just thrown out a lot of questions and provided few reads apart from a bit on FT. Which gives little material for anyone to read you, which is slightly scummy at this point. On September 22 2013 20:50 Mocsta wrote:On September 22 2013 20:45 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 20:01 marvellosity wrote: Zaragon, your filter has basically nothing of substance on VE, other than "feels", and "potentially a mafia VE might play this way if both these dudes are town".
Elaborate please. That's what it boils down to. His timing and input with his posts at that time seemed very deliberate, acting as catalyst for a town vs town fight and at the same time establishing himself as being on DP's side. Even his emotional responses felt too deliberate to me; I can't define that as it's mostly gut. It's day one, so any read--for me at least--works under the assumption that someone is linked to someone who is likely either town or scum. Any suspicion I have is still weak, and I won't pretend otherwise. I missed my window to go after him with sharper phrasings. So.. what do you make of VE dropping his issues with Geript once I presented a counter-point? Felt like softening his play as scum. Makes sense as town as well, though, it really was the sort of discussion where you can have an emotional reaction about something you might reread later. If he hadn't been a significant part in inciting the emotional part, it would be neutral; as is, suspicious So in comparsion you should be really scummy then?
Yet another question and no substance. I've been giving my reads and analyzing people consistently; yes, I condense my points with little detail--I type slowly and am not going to bore anyone with my medical history. Give me your read on something I have said and I will address it.
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On September 22 2013 21:35 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 21:22 Zaragon wrote: So.. what do you make of VE dropping his issues with Geript once I presented a counter-point? Felt like softening his play as scum. Makes sense as town as well, though, it really was the sort of discussion where you can have an emotional reaction about something you might reread later. If he hadn't been a significant part in inciting the emotional part, it would be neutral; as is, suspicious
I dunno what "softening his play as scum" means.
I thought it was suspicous because he dropped his read based on my counter-point so easily. What i wrote was my own insight, but certainly also far from fact. I personally was expecting him to hold his point of view, and counter, my counter-point.
Unless of course I was that convincing. DP kinda suggested later that may have been the case.
Perhaps this point of discussion isn't worth pursuing then.[/QUOTE]
Think it was partly that, partly just him rereading the posts in the morning. After that, it makes sense as either town or scum, just with different motivations. As I said I read the motivation from his posts more scum. By "softening his play" I mean trying to go lower profile and taking less risks.
On September 22 2013 21:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 21:39 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 21:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 21:22 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 20:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 19:36 Zaragon wrote:I don't read either Tofu or DP as scum right now. The problem with that is, they could both be, playing off each other, as it would be a good time for that. Still, I'm going to assume they're town for now since the other line of thinking is currently not useful. Especially since Tofu suspects VE, who I have had a bad feeling about all game. I don't see any other reasoning for going after DP at this point as scum, I hope DP will elaborate about why he thinks there is. Oh and from earlier: On September 22 2013 09:26 ObviousOne wrote:On September 22 2013 09:23 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:20 ObviousOne wrote:On September 22 2013 09:17 justanothertownie wrote: [quote] It says almost nothing. You're so adorable. What does it mean to you that it says almost nothing? That's the point of the game. So you think only scum posts like that? On September 22 2013 09:40 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 09:37 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:34 raynpelikoneet wrote: So JAT if someone posts something that's mostly fluff your thoughts on it are "big deal?", why? Because in my experience town does it all the time, too. It's not that it doesn't matter but if you want to convince me the dude is scum you should give me more reasons. Yeah you are right. It does not mean he is scum. But it's a post that serves no purpose. It says nothing. You should be by default curious of his intentions for making the post. It helps you getting a better read on him and it helps out people getting a better read on you. Townies should care about finding scum, bad posts should be called out. I wrote exactly what I thought. That it is more likely to come from scum. Does that outright eliminate him as town? No. But since fuck-all is happening I'm trying to make something happen. So you have completely avoided answering this question. It's kind of important to note that the question wasn't important, the fact that you haven't answered it yet though is very interesting. Do you think I'm scum? It was a bedtime post. But I'm glad you made some kind of use of it, even if only Rayn comes out looking slightly scum from it, to me. Rayn, would you say that your posts have generally had more substance than the one you pointed out? If we assume that asking what someone else thinks is not substance. Yes i am saying that my posts have had way more substance than the post of yours in question here. How does me saying what i did make me scum? Also what exactly is your read on Pandain / VE and why? It doesn't make you scum, you have just thrown out a lot of questions and provided few reads apart from a bit on FT. Which gives little material for anyone to read you, which is slightly scummy at this point. On September 22 2013 20:50 Mocsta wrote:On September 22 2013 20:45 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 20:01 marvellosity wrote: Zaragon, your filter has basically nothing of substance on VE, other than "feels", and "potentially a mafia VE might play this way if both these dudes are town".
Elaborate please. That's what it boils down to. His timing and input with his posts at that time seemed very deliberate, acting as catalyst for a town vs town fight and at the same time establishing himself as being on DP's side. Even his emotional responses felt too deliberate to me; I can't define that as it's mostly gut. It's day one, so any read--for me at least--works under the assumption that someone is linked to someone who is likely either town or scum. Any suspicion I have is still weak, and I won't pretend otherwise. I missed my window to go after him with sharper phrasings. So.. what do you make of VE dropping his issues with Geript once I presented a counter-point? Felt like softening his play as scum. Makes sense as town as well, though, it really was the sort of discussion where you can have an emotional reaction about something you might reread later. If he hadn't been a significant part in inciting the emotional part, it would be neutral; as is, suspicious So in comparsion you should be really scummy then? Yet another question and no substance. I've been giving my reads and analyzing people consistently; yes, I condense my points with little detail--I type slowly and am not going to bore anyone with my medical history. Give me your read on something I have said and I will address it. I ask questions and make conclusions from them. If the questions end up in non-scum conclusion i drop the matter because there is no need to say it ends up in a town/null read. Your analysis and conclusions are all "this guy did this and then that and he could do that as scum or town both". You have ne real conclusions in your posts. I would like you to give some conclusions that actually take some stance on someone. The only thing close to this is when you called me slightly scummy, and that is bullshit.
Yes, I keep in mind the possibility that someone could be town even if they do something scummy. I'm not scum so I don't know who is town besides myself. I've given reads on what is likely; if you prefer, you can read them as more definite when you interpret me. I currently have no interest in pretending someone is absolutely scum or absolutely town, I have an interest in making links, and for day 1 choosing a good, likely target that yields a decent amount of information.
Currently I'd be fine with VE lynch (feels scummy and would give us significant info from the early day events). There are lots of possible backups like LoneMeow, Sentinel, Rayn, Pandain but I don't have a comfortable read on them. I don't care about the lurkers or people posting nothingness, fine for throwaway lynches but mostly irrelevant for analysis. Of course, if we can't pass a lynch on someone else, we do need to get rid of them sooner or later.
I have decent town reads on Marv, Tofu, Geript, DP and Mocsta. But the situation suggests at least one of them as scum considering the amount of conflicting reads on each other. Unfortunately I can't tell who, if so.
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On September 22 2013 23:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:EBWOP: Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 23:12 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 21:35 Mocsta wrote:On September 22 2013 21:22 Zaragon wrote: So.. what do you make of VE dropping his issues with Geript once I presented a counter-point? Felt like softening his play as scum. Makes sense as town as well, though, it really was the sort of discussion where you can have an emotional reaction about something you might reread later. If he hadn't been a significant part in inciting the emotional part, it would be neutral; as is, suspicious I dunno what "softening his play as scum" means. I thought it was suspicous because he dropped his read based on my counter-point so easily. What i wrote was my own insight, but certainly also far from fact. I personally was expecting him to hold his point of view, and counter, my counter-point. Unless of course I was that convincing. DP kinda suggested later that may have been the case. Perhaps this point of discussion isn't worth pursuing then. Think it was partly that, partly just him rereading the posts in the morning. After that, it makes sense as either town or scum, just with different motivations. As I said I read the motivation from his posts more scum. By "softening his play" I mean trying to go lower profile and taking less risks. On September 22 2013 21:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 21:39 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 21:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 21:22 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 20:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 19:36 Zaragon wrote:I don't read either Tofu or DP as scum right now. The problem with that is, they could both be, playing off each other, as it would be a good time for that. Still, I'm going to assume they're town for now since the other line of thinking is currently not useful. Especially since Tofu suspects VE, who I have had a bad feeling about all game. I don't see any other reasoning for going after DP at this point as scum, I hope DP will elaborate about why he thinks there is. Oh and from earlier: On September 22 2013 09:26 ObviousOne wrote:On September 22 2013 09:23 justanothertownie wrote: [quote] So you think only scum posts like that? On September 22 2013 09:40 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 09:37 justanothertownie wrote: [quote] Because in my experience town does it all the time, too. It's not that it doesn't matter but if you want to convince me the dude is scum you should give me more reasons. Yeah you are right. It does not mean he is scum. But it's a post that serves no purpose. It says nothing. You should be by default curious of his intentions for making the post. It helps you getting a better read on him and it helps out people getting a better read on you. Townies should care about finding scum, bad posts should be called out. I wrote exactly what I thought. That it is more likely to come from scum. Does that outright eliminate him as town? No. But since fuck-all is happening I'm trying to make something happen. So you have completely avoided answering this question. It's kind of important to note that the question wasn't important, the fact that you haven't answered it yet though is very interesting. Do you think I'm scum? It was a bedtime post. But I'm glad you made some kind of use of it, even if only Rayn comes out looking slightly scum from it, to me. Rayn, would you say that your posts have generally had more substance than the one you pointed out? If we assume that asking what someone else thinks is not substance. Yes i am saying that my posts have had way more substance than the post of yours in question here. How does me saying what i did make me scum? Also what exactly is your read on Pandain / VE and why? It doesn't make you scum, you have just thrown out a lot of questions and provided few reads apart from a bit on FT. Which gives little material for anyone to read you, which is slightly scummy at this point. On September 22 2013 20:50 Mocsta wrote:On September 22 2013 20:45 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 20:01 marvellosity wrote: Zaragon, your filter has basically nothing of substance on VE, other than "feels", and "potentially a mafia VE might play this way if both these dudes are town".
Elaborate please. That's what it boils down to. His timing and input with his posts at that time seemed very deliberate, acting as catalyst for a town vs town fight and at the same time establishing himself as being on DP's side. Even his emotional responses felt too deliberate to me; I can't define that as it's mostly gut. It's day one, so any read--for me at least--works under the assumption that someone is linked to someone who is likely either town or scum. Any suspicion I have is still weak, and I won't pretend otherwise. I missed my window to go after him with sharper phrasings. So.. what do you make of VE dropping his issues with Geript once I presented a counter-point? Felt like softening his play as scum. Makes sense as town as well, though, it really was the sort of discussion where you can have an emotional reaction about something you might reread later. If he hadn't been a significant part in inciting the emotional part, it would be neutral; as is, suspicious So in comparsion you should be really scummy then? Yet another question and no substance. I've been giving my reads and analyzing people consistently; yes, I condense my points with little detail--I type slowly and am not going to bore anyone with my medical history. Give me your read on something I have said and I will address it. I ask questions and make conclusions from them. If the questions end up in non-scum conclusion i drop the matter because there is no need to say it ends up in a town/null read. Your analysis and conclusions are all "this guy did this and then that and he could do that as scum or town both". You have ne real conclusions in your posts. I would like you to give some conclusions that actually take some stance on someone. The only thing close to this is when you called me slightly scummy, and that is bullshit. Yes, I keep in mind the possibility that someone could be town even if they do something scummy. I'm not scum so I don't know who is town besides myself. I've given reads on what is likely; if you prefer, you can read them as more definite when you interpret me. I currently have no interest in pretending someone is absolutely scum or absolutely town, I have an interest in making links, and for day 1 choosing a good, likely target that yields a decent amount of information. Currently I'd be fine with VE lynch (feels scummy and would give us significant info from the early day events). There are lots of possible backups like LoneMeow, Sentinel, Rayn, Pandain but I don't have a comfortable read on them. I don't care about the lurkers or people posting nothingness, fine for throwaway lynches but mostly irrelevant for analysis. Of course, if we can't pass a lynch on someone else, we do need to get rid of them sooner or later. I have decent town reads on Marv, Tofu, Geript, DP and Mocsta. But the situation suggests at least one of them as scum considering the amount of conflicting reads on each other. Unfortunately I can't tell who, if so. Okay so last time. I did something scummy according to you. What is that i done that's scummy? And how is that scummier compared to your own posts. Also what are your thoughts on my case on Koshi?
Deflecting with questions. You've started to contribute more, but you still do more deflecting than giving reads or opinions when someone actually talks directly with you. I have no problem with questions, but when you don't attach much of your own opinion, it's easy for you to pretend you had a different agenda. Especially in a filter later on. Maybe I'm over-reading you, but to me it's enough to say you lean slightly scum.
I read up on your meta case on Koshi, I'd say it does make his voting and push for VA more scummy than I had assumed. My problem is, he seemed a lot more interested in his scum game than he is now. Anything to show he's just acting like he's mostly fooling around now?
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On September 22 2013 23:35 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Last night I had the suspicion that Zaragon was mafia because most of his posts were filled with fluff and didn't come to a solid conclusion. Obvious-town ObviousOne was being a boss and pointing it out. Still, I don't think I've seen anything from him that indicates a strong stance on someone or anything that has an edge to it. His posts feel constructed to me but don't do a whole lot.
Anyone have a town game of Zaragon I can read?
It's my first game and it's day 1. I could be assertive, but it would feel stupid. As I told Rayn, feel free to interpret my posts as more definite if you like for the purpose of reading me, I'm just very aware that I'm likely to be wrong about a lot just from pieces of meta or pure game knowledge I'm missing
(If you want some context, I've watched a whole lot of ESPORTS mafia, though)
On September 23 2013 00:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 00:37 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 23:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:EBWOP: On September 22 2013 23:12 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 21:35 Mocsta wrote:On September 22 2013 21:22 Zaragon wrote: So.. what do you make of VE dropping his issues with Geript once I presented a counter-point? Felt like softening his play as scum. Makes sense as town as well, though, it really was the sort of discussion where you can have an emotional reaction about something you might reread later. If he hadn't been a significant part in inciting the emotional part, it would be neutral; as is, suspicious I dunno what "softening his play as scum" means. I thought it was suspicous because he dropped his read based on my counter-point so easily. What i wrote was my own insight, but certainly also far from fact. I personally was expecting him to hold his point of view, and counter, my counter-point. Unless of course I was that convincing. DP kinda suggested later that may have been the case. Perhaps this point of discussion isn't worth pursuing then. Think it was partly that, partly just him rereading the posts in the morning. After that, it makes sense as either town or scum, just with different motivations. As I said I read the motivation from his posts more scum. By "softening his play" I mean trying to go lower profile and taking less risks. On September 22 2013 21:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 21:39 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 21:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 21:22 Zaragon wrote:On September 22 2013 20:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 19:36 Zaragon wrote: I don't read either Tofu or DP as scum right now. The problem with that is, they could both be, playing off each other, as it would be a good time for that. Still, I'm going to assume they're town for now since the other line of thinking is currently not useful. Especially since Tofu suspects VE, who I have had a bad feeling about all game.
I don't see any other reasoning for going after DP at this point as scum, I hope DP will elaborate about why he thinks there is.
Oh and from earlier:
[quote]
[quote] [quote]
It was a bedtime post. But I'm glad you made some kind of use of it, even if only Rayn comes out looking slightly scum from it, to me. Rayn, would you say that your posts have generally had more substance than the one you pointed out? If we assume that asking what someone else thinks is not substance. Yes i am saying that my posts have had way more substance than the post of yours in question here. How does me saying what i did make me scum? Also what exactly is your read on Pandain / VE and why? It doesn't make you scum, you have just thrown out a lot of questions and provided few reads apart from a bit on FT. Which gives little material for anyone to read you, which is slightly scummy at this point. On September 22 2013 20:50 Mocsta wrote:On September 22 2013 20:45 Zaragon wrote: [quote]
That's what it boils down to. His timing and input with his posts at that time seemed very deliberate, acting as catalyst for a town vs town fight and at the same time establishing himself as being on DP's side. Even his emotional responses felt too deliberate to me; I can't define that as it's mostly gut. It's day one, so any read--for me at least--works under the assumption that someone is linked to someone who is likely either town or scum. Any suspicion I have is still weak, and I won't pretend otherwise. I missed my window to go after him with sharper phrasings. So.. what do you make of VE dropping his issues with Geript once I presented a counter-point? Felt like softening his play as scum. Makes sense as town as well, though, it really was the sort of discussion where you can have an emotional reaction about something you might reread later. If he hadn't been a significant part in inciting the emotional part, it would be neutral; as is, suspicious So in comparsion you should be really scummy then? Yet another question and no substance. I've been giving my reads and analyzing people consistently; yes, I condense my points with little detail--I type slowly and am not going to bore anyone with my medical history. Give me your read on something I have said and I will address it. I ask questions and make conclusions from them. If the questions end up in non-scum conclusion i drop the matter because there is no need to say it ends up in a town/null read. Your analysis and conclusions are all "this guy did this and then that and he could do that as scum or town both". You have ne real conclusions in your posts. I would like you to give some conclusions that actually take some stance on someone. The only thing close to this is when you called me slightly scummy, and that is bullshit. Yes, I keep in mind the possibility that someone could be town even if they do something scummy. I'm not scum so I don't know who is town besides myself. I've given reads on what is likely; if you prefer, you can read them as more definite when you interpret me. I currently have no interest in pretending someone is absolutely scum or absolutely town, I have an interest in making links, and for day 1 choosing a good, likely target that yields a decent amount of information. Currently I'd be fine with VE lynch (feels scummy and would give us significant info from the early day events). There are lots of possible backups like LoneMeow, Sentinel, Rayn, Pandain but I don't have a comfortable read on them. I don't care about the lurkers or people posting nothingness, fine for throwaway lynches but mostly irrelevant for analysis. Of course, if we can't pass a lynch on someone else, we do need to get rid of them sooner or later. I have decent town reads on Marv, Tofu, Geript, DP and Mocsta. But the situation suggests at least one of them as scum considering the amount of conflicting reads on each other. Unfortunately I can't tell who, if so. Okay so last time. I did something scummy according to you. What is that i done that's scummy? And how is that scummier compared to your own posts. Also what are your thoughts on my case on Koshi? Deflecting with questions. You've started to contribute more, but you still do more deflecting than giving reads or opinions when someone actually talks directly with you. I have no problem with questions, but when you don't attach much of your own opinion, it's easy for you to pretend you had a different agenda. Especially in a filter later on. Maybe I'm over-reading you, but to me it's enough to say you lean slightly scum. I read up on your meta case on Koshi, I'd say it does make his voting and push for VA more scummy than I had assumed. My problem is, he seemed a lot more interested in his scum game than he is now. Anything to show he's just acting like he's mostly fooling around now? My case on Koshi is not based on meta. It's based on what he has done this game and how it does not make sense to me. There is meta to support my argument, but my argument is not based on meta. Could you elaborate more on why you think it's a meta-case, do you think Koshi's actions this game have been townie aside from meta?
Without meta, he read as town fooling around and I had largely dismissed him and what he did considering the size of the game and number of players. With meta knowledge, I could believe that it's an act. But I don't yet, since nothing so far says he's feigning his disinterest, to me. So I'm paying attention to him now, but don't have much actual alignment feeling on him
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On September 23 2013 05:39 yamato77 wrote:@RaynShow nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:25 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 23 2013 01:22 justanothertownie wrote:On September 23 2013 01:16 raynpelikoneet wrote: marvellosity do you feel like yamato has been trying to figure out your alignment in this game? Why should yamato try to figure out marv specifically? There are quite a few good players in this game. He specifically said that's how he works in games. He finds out marv/(Hapa's) alignments and lynches them or works with them. He also gave me an impression he has tried to read marv's slignment, i don't see him doing so. That tactic works in Mini games. It does not work in large games. In large games, as town, I skim the thread, noting what I find suspicious, and then work with multiple scum reads. It is too hard to win a large game by getting townreads. In a Mini it is easy. But at least I understand that you seem to think this difference in my play is actually meaningful. Makes me feel better about your alignment. @VEShow nested quote +On September 23 2013 02:45 VisceraEyes wrote:On September 22 2013 22:20 yamato77 wrote:On September 22 2013 18:42 FirmTofu wrote: As much as I dislike DP's play this game, DP's response to me is making me warm up to him. It is reminiscent of classic town play.
Townies know they are town. Therefore, when people call them scum, they instinctively believe the accuser is "bad" or scum. After all, they are town and they know that the accuser is wrong. This knowledge makes them act in anger and frustration when defending themselves.
Classic thought process: "How could this asshole accuse me? I'm town! I've been playing super pro-town all game and this guy is saying I'm scum? He must be a terrible player or scum."
While DP's anger toward me could be manufactured, it feels rather genuine. Scum DP is actually more likely to only argue the entire game than town DP is. Honestly, DP refusing to do anything OMGUS people the whole game is not a point in his favor, it is a point against. You should know better, because in Persona, he was actually somewhat useful despite there being arguments in the game. Unfortunately, if DP is mafia, you're probably just bad. This whole situation between you and DP is entirely too convoluted for two scum to have constructed. And yes, I am calling DP mafia, for the record. He can very well play this game properly and not like a butthurt noob. On September 22 2013 21:13 DarthPunk wrote:On September 22 2013 21:09 WaveofShadow wrote:On September 22 2013 21:02 DarthPunk wrote:On September 22 2013 20:42 WaveofShadow wrote:Hey DP, I don't know if this is your first fucking rodeo or something, but hey guess what? People accuse each other of shit all the time! Both stupidly and intelligently alike! Welcome to mafia! My suggestions is calm your tits and play the game without resorting to the angry tone, again either fabricated or real. Scaring FT away doesn't do a whole lot for us but it certainly makes it easier to accuse him of being scum which appears to be what you want? Now if you please, have a look at my earlier post for me and if you have any thoughts on the matter I'd like to hear them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423071¤tpage=51#1005 I've played the same way for a long time. I am not changing just because you say so. See, but that's where I don't believe you. I've played games before with you in which you were not this constantly incensed. I'll go have a look at those now, actually, because it may in fact be that as you say, you only get this way when people accuse you of being scum. That's pretty hilarious actually if true especially considering you say you're 'not meta-able.' I do it as scum too. So no. not meta-able. Also I'm playing league. I will post when i feel like it. Pro-tip: Don't listen to a player's opinion of their own meta. Or take "I do this as scum/town, too!" as a valid excuse for legitimately scummy play. Wave has picked up on the same thing that I've picked up on, and it makes me feel very good about this read. I rescind my early scum read on Wave.
On September 22 2013 20:45 raynpelikoneet wrote: FirmTofu why is your play completely different from Desert? As in, he's actually posting? This line of questioning goes nowhere, because in recent memory, FT has simply not posted and been lynched for it. As town. Questioning the difference is completely pointless. Something is off with Rayn this game. His questions are generally stupid, but he's a special kind of useless so far and it's begun to seriously bother me.
RE: VisceraEyes Still pretty scummy and useless. Can be scummy and useless as town. Not necessarily a good lynch. His alignment will be clearer the longer the game goes on.
RE: Mocsta Has toned down his play to some extent but his early game still bothers me. His outright refusal to respond to me is ridiculous and a pathetic excuse to not face your accuser. I think he doesn't want to argue with me because he knows I can catch him. If Mocsta was town, I would have expected a far more vehement response to my accusations than "blahblah I didn't even read Yamato's posts except for the part where he called me mafia. Totes not true."
On September 22 2013 09:57 Chairman Ray wrote: Hey everyone, this is my first post here. Sorry I haven't been around since the start since I was pretty busy, but I'm definitely going to dedicate a few hours today and tomorrow doing my best to contribute.
This is my third game of forum mafia. I have played real time mafia as well. Even though I'm a lot less experienced than most people here, I'll pull my weight just fine and I don't expect any newbie lenience.
Last game I learned that it's quite difficult to get strong reads on people during the day. Most my reads at the start were quite off. A lot of town said scummy things, and a lot of scum were quite pro town. However during the final hour when thing started being messy, there were strong reads everywhere. So this game I will try to focus on making things very difficult for scum during the last hour. If a town ends up being lynched day 1, I want as much information to come out of it as possible.
So feel free to ask me anything and I will try to be as transparent as possible. If I see something fishy, I will definitely try to flush you out as well. This dude is now the best lynch in the game, for quite obvious reasons. ##Vote: Chairman Ray This is the thing I don't get about this post. He goes to some lengths to KINDA explain his reads on most everyone he mentions....except the person he's voting for. As if he doesn't want people to vote for the person he's voting for, rather one of the other people he called scum in this post (myself, DP for example). What's the town motivation for doing this and then disappearing? Why does he not care about getting his strongest read (in this case Chairman Ray apparently) lynched? Why not explain why he's voting for Chairman Ray rather than just say "Oh it should be obvious"? Yeah I'm voting Yamato. For the town. ##Vote: yamato77 I was feeling better about your alignment until this. Choosing to do nothing else but sheep thread sentiment onto my own wagon at a crucial time like this is actually fairly conclusive evidence that you are mafia. I see no indication before this that you actually thought I was scum, or thought anyone was scum, for that matter. The "reason" that you have voted for me is actually such a constructed piece of bullshit that I find it hilarious. You're not voting for any reason except for the fact that I voted for Chairman Ray when it should be apparent that I found the reasoning obvious? Laughably horrid. For the record, let me explain why Chairman Ray's post makes him 100% mafia. The one valuable thing I learned from Sicilian was that if there's one thing to be on the lookout for, it is terrible opening posts, especially late in the day. Now, all of you may have the impression from him that he's a noon, but it honestly makes no difference. Anyone who struggles so mightily to post anything of value that late in the day when they enter the thread is almost certainly mafia. To be fair, you could also damn him for his recent sheep vote if LoneMeow just as that wagon was taking off. Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 04:31 Chairman Ray wrote:On September 23 2013 04:14 LoneMeow wrote: I can't get a scum read on anyone but Umasi, and I'm notoriously biased against him so that's almost guaranteed to be wrong. I'll vote him anyway since I have to vote someone. Not sure I'll wake up for the deadline but I'll try.
Chairman Ray is lynchbait like in my last newbie, so probably town. IMHO his "last hour shenigans" plan is terrible, though.
##Vote: Umasi
Here for a while if you want to ask me something. Why would you say that voting Umasi is a terrible idea, yet vote him anyways? It seems to me like you are scum trying to get achieve a town mislynch D1, but unable to muster up any strong cases on anybody. So instead of posting a weak case against them and have everyone call you out on it, you beat us to the punch by telling us your case is poor to begin with. If you are really town, then a town who intentionally makes a bad vote is still hurting town. ##Vote: LoneMeow I guarantee that Chairman Ray is having a difficult time coming up with legitimately suspicious things to comment on, so his gameplan is to sheep the easiest lynch out there. At that time, LM fit the profile because votes were piling on him after he martyred. He is the most legitimately likely mafia candidate in the thread, and my vote will continue to stay on him. RE: The Rest of the Idiots Accusing MeMatthew voting for me I could see happening if he's town. Still a stupid vote, especially since it came after that abomination of a case VE used to justify his sheeping. But as town, I get the impression that he listens to others more than himself. DP I'm beginning to sway on. I'm not certain either way, and it's difficult to know when he's constantly defensive and proclaiming his accusers mafia. I should have known better than to voice my doubts about his alignment when his reaction is automatic. Still, he really has yet to come up with a scum read that wasn't "this guy accused me, he maf" Mocsta I'm pretty certain is mafia, but I hold small reservations that he could just be this horrid as town. He's not the best D1 lynch, Ray is. VE is a similar situation, for the record. As scum, they will continue to dig their own graves, so leaving them alive to get a better picture of them this game doesn't hurt anything. Sentinel, I don't really have much of a clue. I didn't like his entrance to the thread in the first place, and his timely sheeping of the wagon on me is quite disturbing. Could he be this bad as town? Possibly. If I had to guess, I'd say he's mafia, for the aforementioned reasons, but I don't feel good enough about it to lynch him.
Now, I have some time today to spend posting in the thread. Between work and sleep, I have not yet been afforded this chance. So for a limited time, my thoughts are available. Mind you, I generally have ignored most of the rest of the thread outside of the people I have mentioned, so most of my reads on other players are "havent looked" or "probably town".
That settles yamato77 on my town list. His posting pattern was scummy, but I was already getting over that and getting a real-life-impediment vibe, so I'm inclined to believe it.
Disagree as yet about Mocsta and the "obvious" Chairman Ray vote (which turned out to have good reasoning), but not in a way that indicates alignment.
yamato77, can you explain some specifics about your read on Mocsta?
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Need sleep. I'm going to
##Vote VisceraEyes
him being my strongest read from early on. That combined with what looked to me like a deliberately constructed emotional level, and then fading out of the game. Have a look at him again if he doesn't show something very good before the deadline.
LoneMeow caving under pressure... I'm not sure, it's more likely to happen as scum, but the way it happened is how I'd imagine it would happen for town. I don't mind a lynch if he's not even going to say "I'm town" but since I'll be asleep for the deadline I'm not going to try to add momentum on that with a vote now.
Chairman Ray seems to be playing the way he did in town in that previous game, so considering his personality, there isn't that much scummy about him to me (even his vote reasoning looks similar to the game he was town, as far as I can see)
I've tried to look at Mocsta more carefully, but the personality reads on him don't fit with my picture of him--I see him as gruff and relaxed. Looking at reads and his filter, I'm getting less clear town--by direction and substance--but not scum. I'm not sure how much to trust other people's meta on this, but certainly not enough for my vote at this point
Sentinel was never a great case I think, but he's still leaning a bit scum for me
I'll hang around a few minutes if someone has points or questions for me, but please make it short and sweet if so
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I've been here, reading off and on, working on a short story. Fair point I could've posted just to make my presence known, but I didn't have much to add until I decided it was time to get on with my vote and get to bed.
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On September 23 2013 10:03 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 09:52 Zaragon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Need sleep. I'm going to
##Vote VisceraEyes
him being my strongest read from early on. That combined with what looked to me like a deliberately constructed emotional level, and then fading out of the game. Have a look at him again if he doesn't show something very good before the deadline.
LoneMeow caving under pressure... I'm not sure, it's more likely to happen as scum, but the way it happened is how I'd imagine it would happen for town. I don't mind a lynch if he's not even going to say "I'm town" but since I'll be asleep for the deadline I'm not going to try to add momentum on that with a vote now. Chairman Ray seems to be playing the way he did in town in that previous game, so considering his personality, there isn't that much scummy about him to me (even his vote reasoning looks similar to the game he was town, as far as I can see)+ Show Spoiler + I've tried to look at Mocsta more carefully, but the personality reads on him don't fit with my picture of him--I see him as gruff and relaxed. Looking at reads and his filter, I'm getting less clear town--by direction and substance--but not scum. I'm not sure how much to trust other people's meta on this, but certainly not enough for my vote at this point
Sentinel was never a great case I think, but he's still leaning a bit scum for me
I'll hang around a few minutes if someone has points or questions for me, but please make it short and sweet if so
Really? I just made a post looking at the votes. I think they are quite different. Can you please detail the similarities.
Jump-on vote, relatively spur of the moment feel, same time interval. True, his follow-up is weaker this time, I didn't spot that.
The way he breaks his phrases is non-indicative to me, as it relates to the specific circumstance.
Anyway, I'm off to bed, have a good evening, gents and ladies
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On September 23 2013 19:41 FirmTofu wrote:Now for a solid scum read! I kinda feel bad doing this because this is one of the only guys defending me, but Zaragon has been playing pretty scummy this game. The key to his play is apathy. If anyone here played in Sicilian, think of how Yamato played that game as scum. His posting was very constructed and formulaic. His first post reeked of how much he didn't give a flying fuck about finding scum. When I read Zaragon's filter, I get the same impression. Let's have a look, shall we? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423071&user=ZaragonShow nested quote +On September 21 2013 14:31 Zaragon wrote: Not much to go on without wild speculation on people's meta connections and personalities.
From posting interval as it relates to content, I like Geript less. He was pushing a little too hard too fast for either pure pressure or getting anything out of his read if he had one, while still posting at methodical, relatively slow intervals.
He did get to DP to be able to read him very early but it feels mostly like pushing buttons and corresponding reactions to me. Barring any history of reckless responses as scum on DP's part for context, DP feels most likely town. Geript could possibly be scum with one overplayed line DP picked up on, then feeling like he was forced to keep going somewhat like he was. However, it's still more likely to be town on town to me so far. His first post is a commentary on DP vs geript. He backs away from choosing a side, which is the first apathetic tell. His overall conclusion is that both players are town. He makes sure to sound willing to change his mind, as though he doesn't want to commit to this position in the event that the voting dynamic changes. Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 00:25 Zaragon wrote:On September 21 2013 23:48 Mocsta wrote:On September 21 2013 23:31 Zaragon wrote: Does anyone who has played with him before get any tell about whether his pattern seems more or less deliberate than his usual town? I had this feeling early and it's lingering I have a much stronger town read on DP >> VE. Originally, I thought VE looked really good for pointing out the Geript "manipulation" stuff. But having read the game I dont think the point is that valid. -> its a 50/50 call to me whether it was scum manipulation or town arrogance. Now, VE is back to null for me.
I dont get why me pointing out pandain is scummy. I get the point about instructing him to "post".. BUT.. would i not just do this in the QT? seriously, as scum, i dont think there is town cred to be gained by avoiding the current conversation (Geript/DP) to bring that to the fore. My reasoning went more like this: from your position (as town) Pandain could be scum or town. If you had an itch about him based on his "..." and lack of posting, and if you had given it more time, he, as scum, would have had less opportunity to give an explanation or excuse. He might even have posted hours later and skipped past that point for his first post, and then would have read significantly more scummy, which you gave him an opportunity to avoid. Meaning that then you could be scum and him town. I'm not saying it makes me particularly suspicious of you now, especially given Pandain's reaction (or lack thereof) so far. Makes it understandable for you to call him out, since it tells me something about his play regardless of alignment. About VE, I think if geript and DP are both town (which isn't at all a given) his play makes sense as scum, otherwise not, all I have on him besides that is the feeling about his posting I described earlier. If people who have played with him before are comfortable with his posting pattern and emotional level, that means it's probably nothing. See bold. He uses the parentheses to provide himself an out in the event that either DP or geript was to be lynched on Day 1. The parenthetical aside isn't something town would do. Town is more likely to believe their actions even to the point of fault. Only scum uses fallback options to justify their actions. Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 19:36 Zaragon wrote:I don't read either Tofu or DP as scum right now. The problem with that is, they could both be, playing off each other, as it would be a good time for that. Still, I'm going to assume they're town for now since the other line of thinking is currently not useful. Especially since Tofu suspects VE, who I have had a bad feeling about all game. I don't see any other reasoning for going after DP at this point as scum, I hope DP will elaborate about why he thinks there is. Oh and from earlier: On September 22 2013 09:26 ObviousOne wrote:On September 22 2013 09:23 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:20 ObviousOne wrote:On September 22 2013 09:17 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:05 ObviousOne wrote: Do you have thoughts about that post or no? It says almost nothing. You're so adorable. What does it mean to you that it says almost nothing? That's the point of the game. So you think only scum posts like that? On September 22 2013 09:40 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 22 2013 09:37 justanothertownie wrote:On September 22 2013 09:34 raynpelikoneet wrote: So JAT if someone posts something that's mostly fluff your thoughts on it are "big deal?", why? Because in my experience town does it all the time, too. It's not that it doesn't matter but if you want to convince me the dude is scum you should give me more reasons. Yeah you are right. It does not mean he is scum. But it's a post that serves no purpose. It says nothing. You should be by default curious of his intentions for making the post. It helps you getting a better read on him and it helps out people getting a better read on you. Townies should care about finding scum, bad posts should be called out. I wrote exactly what I thought. That it is more likely to come from scum. Does that outright eliminate him as town? No. But since fuck-all is happening I'm trying to make something happen. So you have completely avoided answering this question. It's kind of important to note that the question wasn't important, the fact that you haven't answered it yet though is very interesting. Do you think I'm scum? It was a bedtime post. But I'm glad you made some kind of use of it, even if only Rayn comes out looking slightly scum from it, to me. Rayn, would you say that your posts have generally had more substance than the one you pointed out? If we assume that asking what someone else thinks is not substance. Again, it's the same fallback option used in a different context. Zaragon says me and DP both aren't scum, but still uses the fallback to urge the discussion on. He clearly wants us to continue arguing here, as if he knows it will be non-conducive to a proper town atmosphere and is deliberately manipulating us into his hands.
This is fine and all, but you're missing a few things.
First, it's my first game. I was very uncomfortable, at the start especially, about making assertive statements. Attribute that to scum if you like, but it's wrong.
Second, I didn't see a problem with discussion continuing during a relative lull in the game.
Third, I could have very easily went with yamato77's read on Chairman Ray after I had just moved yamato77 solidly to town list and there was a push for Chairman Ray just before I went to bed. I wasn't comfortable with Ray, and went with my most solid scum read from early on, VE, who few people backing me on until new suspicions much later.
Does that really scream scum to you?
You're off my town list now. You seem to have read me as an easy target, but your reasoning is weak. Take away some of my fluffy fresh town mistakes and you can see I've been playing town, and I don't see how I would be a good target to go after if you're town, more if you're scum looking for something to bring to the table when you're on the chopping block.
I'll be back later to look at what the Chairman Ray votes meant and FT slipping off my town list
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Feels like Rayn is going to be stuck as scum for me after this vote. I already didn't like his play, and now it has gone from slightly scum to solidly scum.
Tofu is likely scum. Town is in a bad situation if he isn't, because that means mafia votes are diffused and less meaningful. But I'll assume town is in a good position, and he is. That makes my Mocsta town read go back up to solid.
The rest of the scum crowd is then probably distributed between Sentinel, Cheesecake, LoneMeow, Kush, Stutters, Cephiro, VE (my gut right now says Sentinel, Cheesecake, VE)
For now I'm willing to believe Marv, Geript and Yamato77 made mistakes for this vote. But Geript is not a town read for me anymore, I haven't liked his play all game so the town feel to his motivations is starting to feel tenuous
Mocsta's switching off Chairman Ray easily is not suspect to me from my read on him, but it's personality based
Oh and I'm finally getting any kind of read on Koshi, and it's slightly town.
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On September 24 2013 00:03 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 23:51 Zaragon wrote: Feels like Rayn is going to be stuck as scum for me after this vote. I already didn't like his play, and now it has gone from slightly scum to solidly scum.
Tofu is likely scum. Town is in a bad situation if he isn't, because that means mafia votes are diffused and less meaningful. But I'll assume town is in a good position, and he is. That makes my Mocsta town read go back up to solid.
The rest of the scum crowd is then probably distributed between Sentinel, Cheesecake, LoneMeow, Kush, Stutters, Cephiro, VE (my gut right now says Sentinel, Cheesecake, VE)
For now I'm willing to believe Marv, Geript and Yamato77 made mistakes for this vote. But Geript is not a town read for me anymore, I haven't liked his play all game so the town feel to his motivations is starting to feel tenuous
Mocsta's switching off Chairman Ray easily is not suspect to me from my read on him, but it's personality based
Oh and I'm finally getting any kind of read on Koshi, and it's slightly town. Do you base your read on me on what FirmTofu is in your opinion going to flip? Pretty interesting as you had a town read on FT on D1. Your scumread on FT now seems to be based on OMGUS rather than his actions. Why exctly do you think i am scum, and why exactly do you think FT is scum?
We had a discussion earlier about that. You deflect a lot with questions without attaching your opinion. It was even scummier when you voted Chairman Ray and also didn't attach much of your opinion. I can't find you making any move like that at the end of the day.
So you are a separate and more solid read to me than FT.
FT tried to make a case on me as scum when he realized he was under heavy fire. It was weak. He also tried to swap vote to Chairman Ray there at the end. So my read changed, yes, for two pretty good reasons.
I realize the possibility of reading Chairman Ray wrongly, but doing so combined with his case on me makes him read very scum to me. Obviously I can't easily lend that perspective to you. I'm trying now to establish people's earlier scum reads on FT in my mind and see if I can make a connection, but I'm pretty busy for the moment
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On September 24 2013 00:32 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 23:51 Zaragon wrote: Feels like Rayn is going to be stuck as scum for me after this vote. I already didn't like his play, and now it has gone from slightly scum to solidly scum.
Tofu is likely scum. Town is in a bad situation if he isn't, because that means mafia votes are diffused and less meaningful. But I'll assume town is in a good position, and he is. That makes my Mocsta town read go back up to solid.
The rest of the scum crowd is then probably distributed between Sentinel, Cheesecake, LoneMeow, Kush, Stutters, Cephiro, VE (my gut right now says Sentinel, Cheesecake, VE)
For now I'm willing to believe Marv, Geript and Yamato77 made mistakes for this vote. But Geript is not a town read for me anymore, I haven't liked his play all game so the town feel to his motivations is starting to feel tenuous
Mocsta's switching off Chairman Ray easily is not suspect to me from my read on him, but it's personality based
Oh and I'm finally getting any kind of read on Koshi, and it's slightly town. Cephiro is one fucker I forgot about . Thnx. Lastly, I dont understand your comment on me regarding Chair. If its personality based, surely I can do it as town or scum, no? So is the lack of suspicion then founded on being a prior town read?
Yes you are one of my more solid town reads from earlier. Yamato's suspicion changed that a little, but not from much I could see myself.
I mentioned I have a read on your personality, earlier. I'm imagining how you would read Chairman Ray, and how you would switch off him. Given it was a good move and it fits my image of your personality to do so as town, I'm trusting my personality and town read on you. They're separate but are supporting each other so far
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With FT, at first I had a genuine vibe from him, a distracted town catching up and giving decent points along the way. I found them similar to mine at that point.
After he disappeared and came back into the game (again) I didn't get a "town catching up" vibe, I got a scum "I have to make myself look townier, quick, something" vibe. When someone tries to make a case on me based on "fluff" and also votes Chairman Ray very late, obviously from my point of view they look very scummy.
That gives VE some good circumstances to drop from my scummiest reads--which would give me a better context read on FT since part of my town read on FT was how he read VE--but I don't know what to make of VE's posts now. There is no drive in those posts, town or scum.
VE what are your specific thoughts about FT?
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On September 24 2013 09:36 WaveofShadow wrote:EBWOP Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 09:30 Cephiro wrote:On September 24 2013 08:08 marvellosity wrote:Risen is on really hard drugs if he's town. Anyway, Cephiro, unlike Chairman ray, has been around a long time and should definitely know better: On September 23 2013 09:53 Cephiro wrote: Wow shit. So many pages to catch up on. If I am not mistaken, it should be 4 hours until deadline? I'll do my best to read as much as I can, but I'll try to skim through so I can get a proper vote today. It will be a sheepish vote most likely since I don't have time to make a case.
I'm going to be busy during early next week (the next few days), but I will try to be actively on for a few hours at least so that you can get a proper read on me, and that I'm able to pressure some scum properly.
(This is what I get for doing irl stuffs and playing too much dota. >.>) This never happens. He does a vote on LoneMeow and then peaces out. very much not what the bolded suggests. And, unlike Ray, this happened within a considerably shorter timespan Here's some kind of explanation for it: On September 24 2013 07:03 Cephiro wrote: Here until deadline now. Left before the nightpost since I was so pissed at the situation. (Deadline-thing) Still haven't caught up completely but doing my best. Sucks to see that we lynched a parity cop -_- Couldn't have started much worse. Questions I'll be fine with, I'll read the rest as quickly as I can to give you my thoughts on who is scum. I don't buy this at all. He's pissed at the situation, except he's been too busy to play the game because he's been playing too much dota? How pissed can you be at the situation when you've basically stuck your middle finger up at the game already? It feels really unnatural. I think Cephiro has a pretty decent chance of being mafia. As I mentioned even at pre-game, I would be very busy at least during the first few cycles of the game. I really wanted to participate in another large-scale game ( a normal one for a change), but the fact is that I like to contribute but I haven't been able to do that as much as I would have wanted. There has been more activity than I was expecting to be able to handle properly. I'd rather read 50 pages properly and try to catch up than skim through 100 and post some bullshit. I still have multiple tens of pages to read through. Why exactly have I stuck my middle finger up at the game already? Am I that much of a jerk for having a real life, and wanting to play some dota? Yes, I can admit this game has not been my #1 priority. Does that make me scum? No. As scum, there is nothing that I enjoy more than coming up with the most devious plan to bend town over again and again and fuck them in every hole possible without them even knowing I did. Lurking would be very sub-optimal to do that. Anyway, I won't delve further into that but continue catching up instead. Here are some short notices that I have made (I have properly read through up to page 80.) kushm4sta: Terrible play, doesn't give a shit and openly admits it. But constantly pops in every once a while to say something, why? Coagulation: Seems too confident for someone who doesn't contribute at all. [UoN]Sentinel: A lot of useless posts and bad reasoning in general. VayneAuthority: This is more what I'd call giving the middle finger to the game, doing nothing but posting some rp shit? justanothertownie: Seems to be easily swayed in his opinions, the way he posts gives me the feeling that he wants his presence to be acknowledge but not really noticed. I will not be able to catch up the whole thread until deadline, but if I live on I am catching up and being of better use for the town. I sense a pattern here. Why is it when people make list posts they tend to outline the 'easy' reads? Sorry Ceph, you're still a vig for me---this post tells us absolutely dick all and you haven't helped out this game in the slightest. It would be a shame if you're town, but honestly this bare modicum of effort makes me actually think scum. Good vig shot here ladies and gents.
From the point of view of a busy townie, it does make sense though. Imagine yourself lightly touching the game in between focus on something else, and how it affects your reads.
Is there any meta to establish Cephiro would play a simplistic "busy town" scum rather than really be interested in playing properly if he rolled scum?
Sure could be scum, more likely than a lot of people, but I have nothing to personally build a scum feel.
I'd prefer a shot on someone who voted Chairman Ray (and Cephiro made a special note to say he should not be killed). FT top on my priority. I do see the reasons people mistakenly went on Chairman Ray, but I really don't expect less than 2 scum on him
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Ugh that tells us next to nothing I can see.
With an FT shot, either way he flipped he would have yielded tons of information. Red: Rayn would be confirmed scum to me. Sentinel, pretty much confirmed. Geript a lot more suspect, for all intents and purposes confirmed. Kush a lot more suspect. And anyone who deflected from an FT shot would be suspicious--they are slightly now, for that matter.
Some Mocsta and LoneMeow voters would get a lot more alignment-indicative. And we'd basically have four confirmed town who voted FT besides Chairman Ray.
Green: the playing field would be a lot more open, but it would make a lot of other people read townier than they are (yes, I'd look significantly scummier, I wanted to take that risk)
That's just off the top of my head
What does this tell us? Do we just hope that the next 48 hours doesn't let us convince ourselves to get out of an FT lynch?
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Time to read dead people's filters and fine-comb the night phase, I suppose. But first sleep.
Have a good morning guys
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On September 24 2013 18:43 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 18:27 Pandain wrote:On September 24 2013 18:20 FirmTofu wrote:On September 24 2013 16:56 Pandain wrote:On September 24 2013 12:52 Pandain wrote: Firm out of curiosity what made you change your read on Zaragon? The way he responded to my accusations. Just felt like a townie response to me. I also know that my case wasn't the strongest evidence-wise, so I am willing to consider other options as well. Like what. How did it feel like a townie response? I assume you mean Marv convinced you your argument was flawed? No, marv and I disagreed on my heuristics. I changed my read on Zaragon independently of anyone else. ............... Ugh. I just read his filter again and he's back in scum territory. I don't remember why I changed, but this guy is still scummy imo. Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 11:16 Zaragon wrote: Ugh that tells us next to nothing I can see.
With an FT shot, either way he flipped he would have yielded tons of information. Red: Rayn would be confirmed scum to me. Sentinel, pretty much confirmed. Geript a lot more suspect, for all intents and purposes confirmed. Kush a lot more suspect. And anyone who deflected from an FT shot would be suspicious--they are slightly now, for that matter.
Some Mocsta and LoneMeow voters would get a lot more alignment-indicative. And we'd basically have four confirmed town who voted FT besides Chairman Ray.
Green: the playing field would be a lot more open, but it would make a lot of other people read townier than they are (yes, I'd look significantly scummier, I wanted to take that risk)
That's just off the top of my head
What does this tell us? Do we just hope that the next 48 hours doesn't let us convince ourselves to get out of an FT lynch? I can't believe I missed this post. How exactly is rayn confirmed scum if I flip red? Rayn always busses his teammates when he's scum. He sure as hell isn't going to hard-defend me when I'm the most likely person to get lynched on day 2. Awful logic. I'm not sure as to how Sentinel is even related to me. Basically all he's doing is making pre-flip association cases that are likely to amount to shit. It's a terrible way to play. The only thing I like about this post is "And anyone who deflected from an FT shot would be suspicious--they are slightly now, for that matter." I actually agree with this. I was a good vig shot considering the circumstances of the lynch. Those who try to dissuade the town of that are quite simply anti-town.
I had no idea about that meta on Rayn, can anyone verify? I suppose I might believe it since he'd set himself up for that with his playstyle
I'm slightly frustrated if my scum read on him is mostly because he keeps deflecting with questions, and he's just always been doing that and no one commented on my read
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Your filter to me reads like this: ask question, gauge reaction, give opinion based on reaction. Sometimes ask multiple questions, give opinion if one leads in the right direction. The few times you went opinion + question at once, it didn't feel substantial to me. Feels like a scum way to play, even if its not an unreasonable way to play as town; as I said you were only slightly suspicious to me at first. Until the end of the day when you felt aligned with FT and voted Chairman Ray, at which point I felt you would be confirmed scum if FT flips scum.
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On September 24 2013 10:59 Pandain wrote: Coag dont shoot Vayne if he was mafia he would care about gettng shot
On September 24 2013 11:00 yamato77 wrote: Please do kill him
On September 24 2013 11:01 kushm4sta wrote: ya please kill him. I have seen him do this i dont care shit before i think when we were on a sucmteam toghter
Yamato and Kush, can you explain your reasoning here at the end of the night phase?
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On September 24 2013 20:18 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 20:15 Zaragon wrote: Your filter to me reads like this: ask question, gauge reaction, give opinion based on reaction. Sometimes ask multiple questions, give opinion if one leads in the right direction. The few times you went opinion + question at once, it didn't feel substantial to me. Feels like a scum way to play, even if its not an unreasonable way to play as town; as I said you were only slightly suspicious to me at first. Until the end of the day when you felt aligned with FT and voted Chairman Ray, at which point I felt you would be confirmed scum if FT flips scum. That's how you are supposed to play lol. So i am scum because i ask questions and make conclusions based on answers, and because i did not vote for FirmTofu whose alignment you don't even know. that's really weak dude.
I told you, your play itself only made you lean slightly scum for me. It felt like you were hiding more of your thoughts than I felt is truly towny. Questions to me are interrogation tools, but I haven't felt you balance them out with reads that could not be constructed on your responses.
I'm now asking if someone besides FT can verify your meta, because if you play like this all the time I have much less on you.
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On September 24 2013 20:25 raynpelikoneet wrote: Btw Zaragon i already talked about me bussing as scum with Koshi on N1. Are you even reading my posts? I even posted a game which you should have looked at if you think i am scum.
I had glanced at Desert and Catch 22. Doing a more careful pattern read on you now since I realized I had only compared endgames
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On September 24 2013 20:47 raynpelikoneet wrote: I wasn't scum in Desert.
That's why I compared two games where I knew your alignment and tried to get a better meta read on you.
You see, your proportion and timing of opinion/reads an questions in Desert is exactly what I would like to see. Catch 22, you look like you did when I had my first scum read of you, more questions and giving yourself more space to reevaluate based on them before putting yourself out there. You're starting to land somewhere in between--like I said a while back, you started to give a lot more substance. Comparing early game play more carefully, you do look somewhat less scummy to me.
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On September 24 2013 21:21 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 21:04 rposelikoneet wrote: Mocsta, talk to me about Pandain. What do you mean with the "not confused enough about NK's"? Will provide more when I'm home. Too hard on phone. But in short. His post came about 3 to 4min after night post. Thoughts are too coherent for new Info I think. Consider time to refresh , read post with lots of flavour, and think about outcome, plus type. Pandain admitted to being a slow typed too. I'm saying, his point of view is based on info town did not have. Exacerbated when questioning why yam wasn't shot. For me personally, he wasn't a solid night1 kill. So yeah. Dunno when I will be home. Plus coming from a port tasting night. So to be honest. I'm a touch hammered. On a side note. Vintage port IS incredible.
At first I was thinking, I liked Pandain's night phase play, and the quick response to the flips could be adrenaline over a clear feeling that the vigi shot was going wrong. But as I'm thinking about these points... I was feeling the same way I thought Pandain was feeling about people aiming the VA shot, and I don't see how he shifted gears that fast as town and made that post
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On September 24 2013 23:23 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 22:18 Zaragon wrote:On September 24 2013 21:21 Mocsta wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 24 2013 21:04 rposelikoneet wrote: Mocsta, talk to me about Pandain. What do you mean with the "not confused enough about NK's"? Will provide more when I'm home. Too hard on phone. But in short. His post came about 3 to 4min after night post. Thoughts are too coherent for new Info I think. Consider time to refresh , read post with lots of flavour, and think about outcome, plus type. Pandain admitted to being a slow typed too. I'm saying, his point of view is based on info town did not have. Exacerbated when questioning why yam wasn't shot. For me personally, he wasn't a solid night1 kill. So yeah. Dunno when I will be home. Plus coming from a port tasting night. So to be honest. I'm a touch hammered. On a side note. Vintage port IS incredible. At first I was thinking, I liked Pandain's night phase play, and the quick response to the flips could be adrenaline over a clear feeling that the vigi shot was going wrong. But as I'm thinking about these points... I was feeling the same way I thought Pandain was feeling about people aiming the VA shot, and I don't see how he shifted gears that fast as town and made that post Pls help me out here. quick response to the flips could be adrenaline over a clear feeling that the vigi shot was going wrongI'm not even sure what this means or infers... My initial reaction was.. wtf.. why is blazinghand shot?Then Waveofshadow makes a lot of sense (solid town read to a lot of ppl, but minor thread presence, so unlikely to be medic protected) -> Safe. BH shot to me is either (bluesnipe OR safe shot on someone scum respect) Which raises a separate questoin... who would be scared of BH that is in this game? (answer is no one ) .. so im leaning towards blue snipe attempt Point being; Pandain is meant to be a slow, methodical poster that has a high content:post ratio.... This juxtaposes against the word "adrenalin".. I dont even know how you could entertain this notion in the first place.
I'm a slow methodical poster; I was full of adrenaline at that point. I could have posted something much faster than normal if something had made sense to me. But I was also confused by the kills and still stuck on why people switched to VA for vigi target, thus why I said I found it strange how he could shift gears that fast if he is town. We are agreeing, I was just supplying a personality read.
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On Mattchew, I have a hard time reading anything into his posts or actions; he feels consistently silly and uninvested to a point where it doesn't make sense as either town or scum.
All I have is someone else's meta to make him lean scum, and his crap poster/lurker combo to make him useless. I don't think it's enough for my vote; I'm trying to de-tunnel FT but barring any startling revelations I expect he'll be my vote.
Cheesecake, could you expand on your reads on myself, Sentinel and FT please?
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On September 25 2013 21:19 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2013 15:36 geript wrote: Ok so here's where my mind's at. The night kills were super odd in many ways. I'm assuming that the NKs were Yam/BH/Wos; we could make an interesting argument that BH/VA/WoS were the shots and that Coag is actually scum, but I see very little reason to do so there. Yam/BH/WoS isn't awful I guess. but with both VE and Marv in a game I'd fully expect if both of them were town that both of them would be targeted as it's unlikely that both would be medic'd. In the very least I'd expect a doublestack on one of them and then a freebie shot at BH.
Here's the problem that I'm seeing: town got into a shitty place on D1 which is amazing for scum (yes part of that is my fault) and the best priority for scum in this type of situation is to do their best to keep it that way. So the highest priority for scum is not to remove blues but rather to remove people who can bring the thread on track. WoS is ignored half the time despite being a decent player. Yam can bring a thread on track but just as often derail a thread into "No You're scum" posting. Vayne (if he was a scum shot) is intentionally worthless until endgame.
Rather my priority as scum would be to remove active quality players of which the available shots would be: VE, Marv, DP (prior to rage quit), Mocsta, Rayn and a few others. So what's the point in shooting WoS or Yam/Vayne over any of those five. I'm honestly not seeing it. There's a shit ton of scum (6); there's an amazing KP rate (1/2 round up), town seems to be mostly inactive. Where's any sort of benefit of not trying to remove the "get on track" type people to keep the thread in a clusterfucked situation?
I've only seen odd kills like this in two drastically different situations: mostly inactive scum where NKs going through is far more important than anything else and mostly active experienced scum where they need a bit of time to hide before it becomes obvious. I'm not sure that Mattchew is right about Marv, but I really think that we should be taking hard looks at Marv/VE/etc. again because I'd bet that a number of the "pro scummers" are scum. This is wrong and dumb. VE wasn't a good shot because he did nothing until today. Marv has been passed over for NK many times. I've been shot before him in Les Mafia. WoS was clearly town, and BH was a replacement with the possibility of being good for town (maybe). Saying VE/Marv are worth looking into because they are alive is stupid.
I has some merit. I don't see how VE was even in a position to be NKed, and he's never given me much of a town read. If he's established as a better player than that, then I don't want to forget my pattern-based read on him early on.
Marv has felt town all along, but he was part of the mistake for the Chairman Ray vote. That's not much to go on, but logically he would fit in a FT scum team considering the direction of his play. I'm doubting that as yet, though I wish I had a better feel for how he's read FT.
Partly related to that, I liked Mattchew's posts. Doesn't show any deeper analysis of the game, but I can buy his playstyle now as town just wanting to be right at the end if Marv flips scum.
That said, I'm just not reading Marv as scum. So he would only serve as a logical puzzle piece in the Chairman Ray vote switch if we had a real scum panic situation at the end of day one because of the deadline mishap. Not likely (the Marv part, obviously I've shown I think the scum panic situation is likely) but I don't want to rule it out: let's not rule out anyone who isn't confirmed town.
The only reason I'm addressing this is because I haven't liked the thread sentiment during this day (I read up to date on the game twice yesterday without posting since I was stopping myself from getting stuck on FT and Rayn, evaluating non-FT scum link possibilities, but nothing I've seen has sold me on anyone else as priority)
iamp:
For my vote on VE being meaningless to you: it was what I believed to be several hours before deadline and I needed sleep. I hoped it would get traction, because he was by far the scummiest read to me.
I said the case on Sentinel wasn't great then, and it wasn't--for a lynch. Doesn't mean he can't lean scum for me.
I had no interest in throwing a vote on a wagon to "look townier" when I had a good scum read.
On Pandain:
I've liked some of his posts, but never his posting pattern. I've considered that he could be similar to myself in play, except that notion sort of collapsed when he posted in short bursts of only minutes apart for the night phase and just after the flips. Means some of his posts could read as playing with an information advantage, and I need to check it more thoroughly
Out of game note: + Show Spoiler +I'm posting less as I'm having problems with this game; Multiple Sclerosis affects my memory and concentration and I'm having some worse days. I'm mentioning it because I've had a lot of "weird" and "fluff" comments that you might want some context to (I take zero offense).I'm still of course firmly going to ask that if you think I'm scum, lynch me without reservations. I hope to be more active tonight or tomorrow.
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I don't like how we've shifted off people who voted Chairman Ray. It's almost impossible for us not to find scum among those names, and we already know (most probably) yamato77 is town among those.
I'd be ok to vote Rayn, Sentinel, or geript, even if they vary very much in scumminess for me (I wrote them in order) and get information, but obviously I want FT more. To me both the most likely to flip scum and the biggest yield of information.
Why should we dismiss the very real possibility of a scum panic situation that reveals several likely scum for a minor player without many links to anyone? Is he really that much more scum than anyone with day 1 vote that would prove significant for the coming day? Someone who voted LM feels considerably less relevant when we don't know LM's alignment as certainly as Chairman Ray's--that includes LM himself
That's where I'm at. I've been unable to focus on the game, so I'm questioning myself, but I'll go with my reads, logic and gut as they've been; they were clear
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On September 26 2013 08:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 08:55 Zaragon wrote: I don't like how we've shifted off people who voted Chairman Ray. It's almost impossible for us not to find scum among those names, and we already know (most probably) yamato77 is town among those.
I'd be ok to vote Rayn, Sentinel, or geript, even if they vary very much in scumminess for me (I wrote them in order) and get information, but obviously I want FT more. To me both the most likely to flip scum and the biggest yield of information.
Why should we dismiss the very real possibility of a scum panic situation that reveals several likely scum for a minor player without many links to anyone? Is he really that much more scum than anyone with day 1 vote that would prove significant for the coming day? Someone who voted LM feels considerably less relevant when we don't know LM's alignment as certainly as Chairman Ray's--that includes LM himself
That's where I'm at. I've been unable to focus on the game, so I'm questioning myself, but I'll go with my reads, logic and gut as they've been; they were clear Instead of wanting to lynch FT for information and only for information could you tell us why he is mafia?
I wish I could, I feel really cruddy about it but I can't. I'm in the game out of sheer stubbornness at this point, I'll have to ask for replace/modkill if I don't get better tomorrow. My filter has my points strewn about it, and for instance DP's filter has the case for FT from early on
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On September 26 2013 09:46 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 09:43 Pandain wrote:On September 26 2013 05:44 Pandain wrote:Quick reasons why VE is scum before I go to class: 1. Has been lurking day two but still clearly reading. 2. Tried to cast doubt on Yamato as confirmed town, why even do that. 3. Just accused JAT for "why you pick FT" and being incredulous at it. Despite this, VE has said that he thinks FT best option and he only switched because no one would talk to him. Why is he so surprised at JAT. 4. Hasn't really been pushing lynches, merely commenting, agreeing, or disagreeing 5. Yam and WoS both thought and said VE was scum before they got shot. 6. On September 26 2013 05:16 VisceraEyes wrote: I am also going to vote for LoneMeow. For the town. g2g be back later plz vote VE I will help with the crusade Bad random vote, doesn't comment on key issues going on which corresponds to my noting his inconspicious absense. Repost. Anyone want to switch to a better lynch on a conspicuously inactive person zaragon. his last post stinks.. (1) He is mimicing the idea of Geript, that all the active posters can not be town -> but is not providing any clues to WHO. This is basically conspiracy theories design to create distrust. (2) The way he mentioend asking fora replacement was very odd (3) His vote at the moment is a throw-away on FirtmTofu, even though he has been present enought o know the current situation on lynch candidates. (4) His filter, dont have time to make a case, but it stinks. Real bad. Zaragon *is* scum.
I'm not scum, Mocsta. I'm going to guess part of your read is based on how I town read you so early? Well I'm happy I got something right if you are.
1, I didn't mimic that idea, I made a similar point much earlier
2, If you have filter dived me, go back and do it again to read my out of game comment. I could add some graphic details and swear words, but I won't. It's not leverage for me in a game.
3, I've said why.
4, Ok, my play stinks I suppose, I'm still not scum.
But I'll welcome a lynch, to be honest, I definitely can't participate at the level I would like. Have a look at FT, Rayn, Sentinel, maybe geript, Cheescake, VE (and don't rule out Marv) when I flip green
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On September 27 2013 00:41 Koshi wrote: Oh btw. When catching up this morning I was 50/50 on LM being a doc tbh. But I was 100% certain Mocsta was fake. Did anybody else share that feeling on Mocsta claim? It felt like a scum thing to do or a really obnoxious townie thing rather than a real doc claim.
Some people reacted totally different. Believed Mocsta without considering this. Umasi pops to mind. Any1 else noticed? Didnt reread yet. Just popped in my mind. You guys believed Mocsta?
I considered it, I just realized Mocsta had shat on the carpet at that point no matter what was what, and LM flipping scum was the only chance that we aren't very likely to lose in a new climate where scum can pretty much do anything they want for an entire day. I hoped I had been wrong and playing like crap all game, in essence. Then Mocsta did a turnaround and suddenly sees how towny everything I have done is (after starting a crap wagon on me just before the doc mishaps)
I'm not sure if I've been fooled by my personality read on Mocsta all along and he's been playing dumb at certain moments, and is organized-chaotic scum. I don't think I buy his case on me at the end of the day being real, and he's given no sign it was a town ploy to get a scum reaction (as far as I can see, only skimmed the thread up to date today as yet)
Does Mocsta play dumb, as town or scum? Or is it all recklessness?
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On September 27 2013 01:08 Koshi wrote:Ok, plz reread page 199-200. People that look good to Mocsta claim. Deconduo, VE (both knew that there was something wrong to an extend) People that look like shit to Mocsta claim: CC, Umasi (watching a trainwreck as a spectator) Look at this Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 10:52 Mocsta wrote:On September 26 2013 10:52 VisceraEyes wrote: HE COULDN'T CLAIM THAT AS SCUM IF HE'S ABOUT TO GET LYNCHED BECAUSE IT WOULD OUT YAMATO AS SCUM
RIGHT?! Its real Its why i said hes goign to get shot (or RB'd is prob wiser) in the end, hes completely useless VT now.. it wasnt required. And then CC his reply to this Mocsta message: Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 10:53 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Or he's trying to out a doctor, and trying to switch the vote onto Cephiro.
FUCK! no mention of yam at ALL in his filter either. FUUUUUUUCK Here CC knows what Mocsta doesn't know, that there is no breadcrumb. Ofc CC isn't as retarded as Mocsta so he just plants the idea in the thread. Mocsta takes this idea and decides to do this: Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 10:57 Mocsta wrote: OK. I DOC'D YAM
everyone, pile onto lonemeow. Like CC should now it is fake, or at least something is funny, but this is how he replies: Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 10:58 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: LOL IN B4 BOTH DOCS DOCCED YAM LOL The last message is in line with CC his posting this game. Remember when I said scumslip before I went to bed. CC is an arrogant bastard this game that is just commenting this game in scum perspective. Here he does it again. I really wonder if he is scum tbh, because he thinks exactly how a scummer would think. omg 2 blue roles, because they are both not red for sure.
To add:
On September 26 2013 09:55 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Moc is on the right track. Let's do this shit.
Vote for Dec / Zara / Ceph / LM
DO THIS SHIT
On September 26 2013 10:13 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Geript voting Zaragon makes me not want to vote Zaragon anymore...
About the vote switch to and off me. CC has never looked very good to me, but I'm still not sure if he's awful town or scum. More scummy than before. His thought processes have looked weak and often spurious to me the entire game.
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Pretty sure Mocsta is scum and Cephiro is the Roleblocker.
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On September 27 2013 11:42 Mocsta wrote: Who was roleblocked?
Trying to knee-jerk a role to come out, throwing himself on the bullet for Cephiro since he's suspicious himself already and expect to get lynched?
Maybe I'm just sleep-deprived, it could definitely be flawed logic. Anyway, see you tomorrow guys
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On September 27 2013 13:31 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 13:25 Zaragon wrote:On September 27 2013 11:42 Mocsta wrote: Who was roleblocked? Trying to knee-jerk a role to come out, throwing himself on the bullet for Cephiro since he's suspicious himself already and expect to get lynched? Maybe I'm just sleep-deprived, it could definitely be flawed logic. Anyway, see you tomorrow guys What? ObivousOne was roleblocked yesterday. Surely someone would be RB'd today? Why does asking about an RB suggest I am scum? seriously dude? Let me guess, you were RB'd; and took my question to the thread personally?
Yep I was trying to find a fun way to say it and see if I could get something out of a reaction, but I really am sleep deprived (and on heavy, fun medication) so I'm not sure if it made sense even in theory
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CC has been one of the most consistently scummy people in the game. But Marv pointed out his signature, and considering CC from that perspective, he feels like a coin flip for scum.
Cephiro is an important puzzle piece, as is FT.
FT, you're not reading scum lately, the problem is you can act as pro-town as you like because people have diverted off of you, meaning you can go bussing scum mates or attacking townies as much as you like with your posting pattern (which obfuscates alignment very well, though it's not necessarily scum). And you have gone on the offense at people at points that haven't been critical tipping points for those people, from what I remember.
So I can only transfer my scum read from the critical points earlier. I will say, the people you have chosen to target (besides me, who you could have thought was an easy target to transfer, though thinking back, you did waver on your pressure at a point that made you look a bit too scummy to be your scum play as I've read your meta) have not been easy scum diversions. The problem is, if you want to establish towniness as scum or town, you had to do what you're doing after events day 1.
In essence, we never unknotted the scum reactions in the Chairman Ray case and you are at the center. At this point there are too many scum connections to extrapolate from the FT/Chairman Ray situation and the LoneMeow/Cephiro situation. I simply can't place a town read on you in these circumstances, sorry.
I've filter dived over and over these last couple of days, but whenever I come up with something now, it's conditional based on if scum needed to panic swing your vote, or if Mocsta is scum, or if Cephiro is scum.
Pandain is one person I have started to like most for town (I've decided him trying to prevent the swing from an FT shot N1 overrides any scumminess I've felt about him, and his erratic posting pattern is making sense now for my personality read on him).
Next up going to check if it makes any sense to shift my scum read on VE, he has offered some glints of towniness, even if it's throughout a scummy pattern.
At this point, a Cephiro or FT vote seems the most logical option.
My personality read on Mocsta actually still substantiates him as chaotic town. I have a few moments of the game I would really like to bring up with you, but I prefer if that's for the night phase after we've resolved some severely knotted case like Cephiro or FT. I think we're better off conserving time and attention, and I think town sentiment is on Cephiro right now.
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I don't like this situation either. I have never personally scum read Cephiro, just trusted some confirmed townies' and town read's opinions. But I never expected new information to come out today either, scum just has no motivation to push anywhere whether Cephiro is town or scum. Only FT would need to make himself look towny, Mocsta would need to redeem himself (both things true for either scum or town)
Trouble is, we need to lynch Cephiro, FT or Mocsta after Mocsta's play. Or find a pretty cold case on someone else that is extremely solid (I haven't found this to be true with Stutters, CC or VE, even if I have some degree of scum read on CC, VE and a very slight one on Stutters). The only filters I'm really curious about investigating further at the moment are Geript and Rayn, however. To be honest, mostly to see if they would give enough information to turn the game around if they flip, more than expand on previous scum cases on them.
A lot of outlier cases and possibly scum effective at low profile are just not relevant for this lynch to me.
Risen to me isn't pushing a scum agenda. He argues for what basically needs to happen, and he himself will only come out looking scum or town depending on a flip. To me it's really that simple with him, his play is so straight-forward. A lot of people could be hiding like that if FT and Cephiro are town. But then we have almost no chance of turning this game around.
My priority goes:
1 FT
(Decent scum read, would clear up everything surrounding Chairman Ray vote and just about clear several big scum reads, or solidify several big scum reads)
2 Cephiro
(To go with Marv and Yamato, find a direction on Mocsta and a lot of people in this last vote)
3 Mocsta
Policy, gamble, not sure we get much of anything except small leads spread throughout the game.
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I actually have a hunch on Mocsta I wanted to bring up. It's weak, I hope to add detail to it later. I tried to play it out in a clumsy way about me being Roleblocked. I was thinking Mocsta as scum could very well believe, after what he's seen on me and his big town read on me, that I would come out if I were a role and became roleblocked if he immediately shouted for the roleblock today. It's really weak, it would just substantiate the "playing dumb" interpretation of Mocsta and instead make a few interactions he had with me look like shrewd scum play expecting some of my newbie mistakes and provoking some others (if he's scum, he would be the one to ask for a roleblock on me, but likely not himself the roleblocker--Cephiro probably would be, and Mocsta would be working to get targets on other people and himself. I hope my reasoning wasn't entirely dumb even if it was a shot in the dark.) Mocsta also hinted cops should not trust their checks because of false result possibilities. Could also be an indirect piece of newbie advice directed at me, if I was a role read (also weak)
It would be close to nothing, except I've heard it several times now that Mocsta enjoys playing scum. If he's scum, he's having a lot of fun right now. I wanted to potentially make some scum hearts leap.
It's enough for me to override my personality read on him and consider, equally, the possibility of shrewd-minded chaotic scum. Actually, if it's possible and allowed, could someone link a QT of a game Mocsta previously played scum?
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Ouch. It's "Zaragon", dammit.
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gg wp
Good learning experience and interesting game, particularly early on. A lot of people played well I think. Thanks all.
By the way, I'm glad you were town Mocsta.
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