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Any good player should know that meta is subject to WIFOM and is nearly always meaningless.
Marv owes me a post.
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hi biddies I'm just gonna wait for people to pop in and start asking me aggressive questions about reads and shit. Make it interesting or imma go play league of legends.
Also fuck I wanted to mason rayn, glad he's basically confirmed town though.
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Anyone want me to mason them? I'll take your desires into consideration.
*Note in order to apply you must not suck ass.
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Hey, Thanks for responding before the event Rayne, less thanks for mentioning the claim stuff...that was kinda private. While it's possible that Rayne as scum made a ploy to clear himself that's a pretty silly waste of scum power on someone who really wasn't even under that much pressure. While personally I would be less certain of Dh and me as a result of the block I think it's fair to treat Rayne as town for the remainder of the cycle. What's more why was he blocked? Was he too good of a mason buddy? Did his Dh Oats pm questioning threaten scum? Or are scum trying to throw town off by throwing doubt on Dh and Oats via the block?
In light of the whole pm he said she said matter I'm still suspicious of Oats's posting, which in a normal game would look townie but here seems exceptionally wasteful yet still conveniently in character, at the very least no one should give him 5 posts considering how little he's done with the amount he already had unless he needs to defend himself in case of a vote, if so I will personally lend him 5 posts.
I'm done for tonight, gl y'all happy hunting.
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On July 17 2013 11:12 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Anyone want me to mason them? I'll take your desires into consideration.
*Note in order to apply you must not suck ass.
Me 
(This will be my only wasted post this cycle )
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I was gonna mason you gumshoe but the you did a thing :/
On July 16 2013 22:43 gumshoe wrote:
In regards to pms, what does mafia learn by knowing whose pming who? Absolutely nothing, the whole point of pms is that mafia can no longer benefit from certain discussions in any way. Unless scum is being pmed in which case they already know and are already privy to the conversation. How is knowing whose communicating with who more useful for scum then town? If town knows they can co-ordinate a chain, ie I mason D.H then D.H chains oats and oats can pm me through the intermediately (oats mentioned everything one pming him making him the universal intermediatery but thats dumb, and risky). Naturally though the chain requires trust like all things but when done right it allows a certain degree of thread coordination.
The only threat of being open is mafia disrupting pm relationships. This is actually a bit of a problem seeing as we only get one pm, which is why I suggest not mass masoning D.H or someone else, if you must pm an intermediatery you trust.
On July 17 2013 03:27 gumshoe wrote:
.
If you are unsure of what to do with your PM's and therefore do not mason, don't listen to slOosh, he should know better.
Mason me and i'll tell you what to do. FFS you can ask your mason partner how you should use your PM's, and tell the thread what he said. Be creative and not fall into this dumb "i'm so bad in off-thread comm, i ignore it" bullshit.
I will lynch you if you ignore it, because off thread comm helps town more than it helps mafia. It gives the town opportunity to make plans and catch scum in different ways. And don't give that bullshit "what if you mason mafia or are wrong about your read". That'll come clear eventually, or you out your logs and someone else might be able to see it.
TLDR;
Everyone needs to mason 2 people, not necessarily at the start of the game. If you dont know what to do with PM's, mason me.
Masoning one person is bad unless its you amirite gumshoe?
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On July 17 2013 10:58 Oatsmaster wrote:
Any good player should know that meta is subject to WIFOM and is nearly always meaningless.
Marv owes me a post.
Yeah, that's really stupid. I don't have multiple posts to waste talking about why meta arguments are fine when they're used correctly but people should listen to the podcast about "The Game".
I've used meta arguments before to kill scum (see: Vivax in TL Mafia LXI)
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I think in that second quote you attributed one of Rayn's quotes to gumshoe didn't you MZ? Kinda cornfusing because of the quotefail in there, but I think it was Rayn who said that sir.
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On July 16 2013 22:43 gumshoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 21:29 kholly wrote:On July 16 2013 12:43 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
It's important that people are transparent about who they choose to PM. If you aren't, you better have a damn good reason not to. The only good reason for being secretive is that it would somehow reveal yourself as a blue or is necessary for your plans to catch scum.
What are we looking for? Odd player choices. PMs are our chance to put direct pressure on people we have suspicions of without going over our post limits. If someone is trying to influence your opinions/manipulate you via PM you need to call them out in thread. If someone uses PMs to buddy to you by telling you they have complete trust that you are town, that's a red alarm. I don't see why town needs to have a PM line with another townie like that. I think discussing the PM dynamics and any plans/thoughts regarding it is a good starting off point for this game.
ALSO - Look out for those who waste their post limits on empty posts/spam then make an excuse later.
For example - "I had some good points to make yesterday but I went over post limit before I wrote my case and....."
The bolded statement is what informed me that he is mafia. DoctorHelvetica is suppose to be a well known player, yet he is calling for people to roleclaim who they talk to? On July 16 2013 17:34 raynpelikoneet wrote:
No, if someone gets anonymously pardoned the suspicion will obviously be on me. There is no reason i should have claimed as mafia. There is no reason i should have not claimed as town. Don't believe this guy. I read the Nuclear Winter Mafia game. On July 16 2013 21:16 Oatsmaster wrote:
wtf is this bullshit.
Total fucking retardness.
Malongo, Koshi and kholly, start playing the game.
Kholly, why is DrH scum? Also there is a voting thread.
Malongo, why is MZ being polarizing a scumtell?
Koshi, why waste 5% of your limit on a useless post? Absolutely USELESS.
Ok so scumteam is probably,
VE, sloosh, FT and other dudes. Everyone else that has posted I think is town.
Anyone that has strong disagreements for any of my reads, please explain why. Using bad language doesn't get town anywhere. Thanks for pointing out that there is a voting thread. I didn't see it as it was far down the list. It is now bumped thanks to me. Oats, you should understand that I am playing the game. As you can tell, I am a very efficient scumhunter. Are you scared of this fake and trying to use aggression to get me to conform to the mafia ideals? I would like to say that I will not listen to the threats of terrorists. I will not be bullied. If you are mafia, you should kill you own mafia members for town credit as you always do in most of your games. Vote DH. I played the nuclear mafia game, and the game before with him as town. Both times he got into early conflicts like this by being transparent. Also how is the nuclear mafia game indicative of his scum play? He was town. In regards to pms, what does mafia learn by knowing whose pming who? Absolutely nothing, the whole point of pms is that mafia can no longer benefit from certain discussions in any way. Unless scum is being pmed in which case they already know and are already privy to the conversation. How is knowing whose communicating with who more useful for scum then town? If town knows they can co-ordinate a chain, ie I mason D.H then D.H chains oats and oats can pm me through the intermediately (oats mentioned everything one pming him making him the universal intermediatery but thats dumb, and risky). Naturally though the chain requires trust like all things but when done right it allows a certain degree of thread coordination. The only threat of being open is mafia disrupting pm relationships. This is actually a bit of a problem seeing as we only get one pm, which is why I suggest not mass masoning D.H or someone else, if you must pm an intermediatery you trust. Other stuff. Tofu: The argument that he pre typed his first post therefore its bad is silly, he ultimately decided to post it. Which is all that really matters, from there just ask yourself, did you find his post helpful? Was it maybe scum trying to comment on setup for easy townie points? Maybe, I personally think his thoughts were helpful (ie the growing risk of the traitor, therefore best to tackle him when he reaches his personal zenith) but if your going to attack him about the post do it for valid reasons. D.H, Im really going to be wary of people who try to spend alot of there posts early in the day cycle, which Dh has, not being able to fight back is a great excuse and paints the accuser as a villain, im sure at least one or two scum will attempt something of this vien before the games through. His commenting on pming is fine, neither her nor there, its setup stuff to get the ball rolling but the point is hes getting the ball rolling. Which is townie to an extent. What I also really like is that he pressed Tofu and then backed off when he was satisfied with tofus response people please do not leave accusations hanging in the air, they will burn posts and actively hurt town, this interaction (Tofu posts, dh pressures, tofu explains, dh absolves) is the model for how interactions should go between townies if they have a grievance with one another. I think Dh's behaviour here strikes me as a townie trying to get the most out of as little as possible, so he reads green to me for now. Thats about it.
I think it is a good time to answer your question now. I heard it from you. Scum.
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On July 17 2013 11:35 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:I was gonna mason you gumshoe but the you did a thing :/ Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 22:43 gumshoe wrote:
In regards to pms, what does mafia learn by knowing whose pming who? Absolutely nothing, the whole point of pms is that mafia can no longer benefit from certain discussions in any way. Unless scum is being pmed in which case they already know and are already privy to the conversation. How is knowing whose communicating with who more useful for scum then town? If town knows they can co-ordinate a chain, ie I mason D.H then D.H chains oats and oats can pm me through the intermediately (oats mentioned everything one pming him making him the universal intermediatery but thats dumb, and risky). Naturally though the chain requires trust like all things but when done right it allows a certain degree of thread coordination.
The only threat of being open is mafia disrupting pm relationships. This is actually a bit of a problem seeing as we only get one pm, which is why I suggest not mass masoning D.H or someone else, if you must pm an intermediatery you trust.
Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 03:27 gumshoe wrote:
.
If you are unsure of what to do with your PM's and therefore do not mason, don't listen to slOosh, he should know better.
Mason me and i'll tell you what to do. FFS you can ask your mason partner how you should use your PM's, and tell the thread what he said. Be creative and not fall into this dumb "i'm so bad in off-thread comm, i ignore it" bullshit.
I will lynch you if you ignore it, because off thread comm helps town more than it helps mafia. It gives the town opportunity to make plans and catch scum in different ways. And don't give that bullshit "what if you mason mafia or are wrong about your read". That'll come clear eventually, or you out your logs and someone else might be able to see it.
TLDR;
Everyone needs to mason 2 people, not necessarily at the start of the game. If you dont know what to do with PM's, mason me.
Masoning one person is bad unless its you amirite gumshoe?
Dammit, I should be asleep. I asked knolls to pm me because I suspected him and wanted to talk with him based off his cryptic posts. He hasn't responded to me and instead called me scum for no reason, It would have helped both of us clear stuff up about each other, I even offered to pm him later on if he was willing to answer me in those Pms, he did not bother providing such assurances. I had a very specific reason for asking him to pm me. We are not speaking right now, the only person I have pmed is blocked (Rayne). Also I made that post back when I thought we only get one mason. This isn't me asking everyone to pm me, it's just a dog begging for a bone, or rather a townie with no current masons hoping to form a mutually beneficial relationship.
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I didn't think I would have to say this, but using things outside the game to try to determine each others alignment is against the rules and the spirit of the game. An example would be trying to use a role PM to determine someones alignment. If someone tries doing this through PM let me know. This will not be a warning, it will result in a direct modkill and ban request. I don't tolerate unsportsmanlike conduct. If you have a doubt whether or not something is legitimate or not feel free to PM me, but I would err on the side of caution. If you have to question whether you can do it, you probably shouldn't be doing it.
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On July 17 2013 11:46 kholly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 22:43 gumshoe wrote:On July 16 2013 21:29 kholly wrote:On July 16 2013 12:43 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
It's important that people are transparent about who they choose to PM. If you aren't, you better have a damn good reason not to. The only good reason for being secretive is that it would somehow reveal yourself as a blue or is necessary for your plans to catch scum.
What are we looking for? Odd player choices. PMs are our chance to put direct pressure on people we have suspicions of without going over our post limits. If someone is trying to influence your opinions/manipulate you via PM you need to call them out in thread. If someone uses PMs to buddy to you by telling you they have complete trust that you are town, that's a red alarm. I don't see why town needs to have a PM line with another townie like that. I think discussing the PM dynamics and any plans/thoughts regarding it is a good starting off point for this game.
ALSO - Look out for those who waste their post limits on empty posts/spam then make an excuse later.
For example - "I had some good points to make yesterday but I went over post limit before I wrote my case and....."
The bolded statement is what informed me that he is mafia. DoctorHelvetica is suppose to be a well known player, yet he is calling for people to roleclaim who they talk to? On July 16 2013 17:34 raynpelikoneet wrote:
No, if someone gets anonymously pardoned the suspicion will obviously be on me. There is no reason i should have claimed as mafia. There is no reason i should have not claimed as town. Don't believe this guy. I read the Nuclear Winter Mafia game. On July 16 2013 21:16 Oatsmaster wrote:
wtf is this bullshit.
Total fucking retardness.
Malongo, Koshi and kholly, start playing the game.
Kholly, why is DrH scum? Also there is a voting thread.
Malongo, why is MZ being polarizing a scumtell?
Koshi, why waste 5% of your limit on a useless post? Absolutely USELESS.
Ok so scumteam is probably,
VE, sloosh, FT and other dudes. Everyone else that has posted I think is town.
Anyone that has strong disagreements for any of my reads, please explain why. Using bad language doesn't get town anywhere. Thanks for pointing out that there is a voting thread. I didn't see it as it was far down the list. It is now bumped thanks to me. Oats, you should understand that I am playing the game. As you can tell, I am a very efficient scumhunter. Are you scared of this fake and trying to use aggression to get me to conform to the mafia ideals? I would like to say that I will not listen to the threats of terrorists. I will not be bullied. If you are mafia, you should kill you own mafia members for town credit as you always do in most of your games. Vote DH. I played the nuclear mafia game, and the game before with him as town. Both times he got into early conflicts like this by being transparent. Also how is the nuclear mafia game indicative of his scum play? He was town. In regards to pms, what does mafia learn by knowing whose pming who? Absolutely nothing, the whole point of pms is that mafia can no longer benefit from certain discussions in any way. Unless scum is being pmed in which case they already know and are already privy to the conversation. How is knowing whose communicating with who more useful for scum then town? If town knows they can co-ordinate a chain, ie I mason D.H then D.H chains oats and oats can pm me through the intermediately (oats mentioned everything one pming him making him the universal intermediatery but thats dumb, and risky). Naturally though the chain requires trust like all things but when done right it allows a certain degree of thread coordination. The only threat of being open is mafia disrupting pm relationships. This is actually a bit of a problem seeing as we only get one pm, which is why I suggest not mass masoning D.H or someone else, if you must pm an intermediatery you trust. Other stuff. Tofu: The argument that he pre typed his first post therefore its bad is silly, he ultimately decided to post it. Which is all that really matters, from there just ask yourself, did you find his post helpful? Was it maybe scum trying to comment on setup for easy townie points? Maybe, I personally think his thoughts were helpful (ie the growing risk of the traitor, therefore best to tackle him when he reaches his personal zenith) but if your going to attack him about the post do it for valid reasons. D.H, Im really going to be wary of people who try to spend alot of there posts early in the day cycle, which Dh has, not being able to fight back is a great excuse and paints the accuser as a villain, im sure at least one or two scum will attempt something of this vien before the games through. His commenting on pming is fine, neither her nor there, its setup stuff to get the ball rolling but the point is hes getting the ball rolling. Which is townie to an extent. What I also really like is that he pressed Tofu and then backed off when he was satisfied with tofus response people please do not leave accusations hanging in the air, they will burn posts and actively hurt town, this interaction (Tofu posts, dh pressures, tofu explains, dh absolves) is the model for how interactions should go between townies if they have a grievance with one another. I think Dh's behaviour here strikes me as a townie trying to get the most out of as little as possible, so he reads green to me for now. Thats about it. I think it is a good time to answer your question now. I heard it from you. Scum.
Ooooooooh you were responding to me, yeah my bad, I made a mistake early on, didn't bother clarifying, if you wanna vote me for it be my guest, also why won't you mason me?
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On July 17 2013 11:55 gumshoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 11:46 kholly wrote:On July 16 2013 22:43 gumshoe wrote:On July 16 2013 21:29 kholly wrote:On July 16 2013 12:43 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
It's important that people are transparent about who they choose to PM. If you aren't, you better have a damn good reason not to. The only good reason for being secretive is that it would somehow reveal yourself as a blue or is necessary for your plans to catch scum.
What are we looking for? Odd player choices. PMs are our chance to put direct pressure on people we have suspicions of without going over our post limits. If someone is trying to influence your opinions/manipulate you via PM you need to call them out in thread. If someone uses PMs to buddy to you by telling you they have complete trust that you are town, that's a red alarm. I don't see why town needs to have a PM line with another townie like that. I think discussing the PM dynamics and any plans/thoughts regarding it is a good starting off point for this game.
ALSO - Look out for those who waste their post limits on empty posts/spam then make an excuse later.
For example - "I had some good points to make yesterday but I went over post limit before I wrote my case and....."
The bolded statement is what informed me that he is mafia. DoctorHelvetica is suppose to be a well known player, yet he is calling for people to roleclaim who they talk to? On July 16 2013 17:34 raynpelikoneet wrote:
No, if someone gets anonymously pardoned the suspicion will obviously be on me. There is no reason i should have claimed as mafia. There is no reason i should have not claimed as town. Don't believe this guy. I read the Nuclear Winter Mafia game. On July 16 2013 21:16 Oatsmaster wrote:
wtf is this bullshit.
Total fucking retardness.
Malongo, Koshi and kholly, start playing the game.
Kholly, why is DrH scum? Also there is a voting thread.
Malongo, why is MZ being polarizing a scumtell?
Koshi, why waste 5% of your limit on a useless post? Absolutely USELESS.
Ok so scumteam is probably,
VE, sloosh, FT and other dudes. Everyone else that has posted I think is town.
Anyone that has strong disagreements for any of my reads, please explain why. Using bad language doesn't get town anywhere. Thanks for pointing out that there is a voting thread. I didn't see it as it was far down the list. It is now bumped thanks to me. Oats, you should understand that I am playing the game. As you can tell, I am a very efficient scumhunter. Are you scared of this fake and trying to use aggression to get me to conform to the mafia ideals? I would like to say that I will not listen to the threats of terrorists. I will not be bullied. If you are mafia, you should kill you own mafia members for town credit as you always do in most of your games. Vote DH. I played the nuclear mafia game, and the game before with him as town. Both times he got into early conflicts like this by being transparent. Also how is the nuclear mafia game indicative of his scum play? He was town. In regards to pms, what does mafia learn by knowing whose pming who? Absolutely nothing, the whole point of pms is that mafia can no longer benefit from certain discussions in any way. Unless scum is being pmed in which case they already know and are already privy to the conversation. How is knowing whose communicating with who more useful for scum then town? If town knows they can co-ordinate a chain, ie I mason D.H then D.H chains oats and oats can pm me through the intermediately (oats mentioned everything one pming him making him the universal intermediatery but thats dumb, and risky). Naturally though the chain requires trust like all things but when done right it allows a certain degree of thread coordination. The only threat of being open is mafia disrupting pm relationships. This is actually a bit of a problem seeing as we only get one pm, which is why I suggest not mass masoning D.H or someone else, if you must pm an intermediatery you trust. Other stuff. Tofu: The argument that he pre typed his first post therefore its bad is silly, he ultimately decided to post it. Which is all that really matters, from there just ask yourself, did you find his post helpful? Was it maybe scum trying to comment on setup for easy townie points? Maybe, I personally think his thoughts were helpful (ie the growing risk of the traitor, therefore best to tackle him when he reaches his personal zenith) but if your going to attack him about the post do it for valid reasons. D.H, Im really going to be wary of people who try to spend alot of there posts early in the day cycle, which Dh has, not being able to fight back is a great excuse and paints the accuser as a villain, im sure at least one or two scum will attempt something of this vien before the games through. His commenting on pming is fine, neither her nor there, its setup stuff to get the ball rolling but the point is hes getting the ball rolling. Which is townie to an extent. What I also really like is that he pressed Tofu and then backed off when he was satisfied with tofus response people please do not leave accusations hanging in the air, they will burn posts and actively hurt town, this interaction (Tofu posts, dh pressures, tofu explains, dh absolves) is the model for how interactions should go between townies if they have a grievance with one another. I think Dh's behaviour here strikes me as a townie trying to get the most out of as little as possible, so he reads green to me for now. Thats about it. I think it is a good time to answer your question now. I heard it from you. Scum. Ooooooooh you were responding to me, yeah my bad, I made a mistake early on, didn't bother clarifying, if you wanna vote me for it be my guest, also why won't you mason me?
I know why you can't mason me. lol.
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On July 17 2013 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:
I think in that second quote you attributed one of Rayn's quotes to gumshoe didn't you MZ? Kinda cornfusing because of the quotefail in there, but I think it was Rayn who said that sir.
So, what do you think of Gumshoe ruining your plan about having town hold back a mason in order to blend in with mafia?
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Aren't you sick of rolling scum Chez?
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On July 17 2013 11:42 VisceraEyes wrote:
I think in that second quote you attributed one of Rayn's quotes to gumshoe didn't you MZ? Kinda cornfusing because of the quotefail in there, but I think it was Rayn who said that sir.
Read his filter my dear friend, you will find both quotes are correctly attributed.
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On July 17 2013 11:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I didn't think I would have to say this, but using things outside the game to try to determine each others alignment is against the rules and the spirit of the game. An example would be trying to use a role PM to determine someones alignment. If someone tries doing this through PM let me know. This will not be a warning, it will result in a direct modkill and ban request. I don't tolerate unsportsmanlike conduct. If you have a doubt whether or not something is legitimate or not feel free to PM me, but I would err on the side of caution. If you have to question whether you can do it, you probably shouldn't be doing it.
On May 30 2013 07:38 VayneAuthority wrote:
I dont know how I feel about the PMs being allowed, I know we uphold great values here but I feel like they usually just lead to cheating and such.
yea looks like things don't change. If anyone asks me about my decision again I am lynching them on sight.
On July 17 2013 08:37 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 07:36 VisceraEyes wrote:
I expect more of Wiggles than you (and most in this game.) No offense brah.
I never know what to say to people thinking my suspicions are "forced". In what way? Like "Hmmm how can I say I'm suspicious of Wiggles Hmmmmmm...maybe this and this? Ugh I don't know but I just have to say I'm suspicious of Wiggles for X reason"? Because if that's the case, what do you think I have to gain by saying I'm suspicious of Wiggles if I'm scum? Or do you think I just needed to round out my list to include 3 players or something? What exactly are you accusing me of SnB?
(6/20) im saying that it looks like you chose wiggles as someone to be suspicious of and then added reasons later, because i dont think given his single post and the reasons you mention it would genuinely make you think he is scum. im saying u scum brah. @DrH if you get a chance can you tell me why im on your scum list? also i want to renew my poke on VA. I'm very much unsatisfied with the extent to which he's talked about setup and policy and not the more important things like reads and interactions. So VA A CHALLENGE can you write a case for why VE is either town or scum? Or replace VE with someone else if you want to but I want you to put some more reasoning into the thread.
Not sure what you are looking for when I just gave a post with my reads so far? Seems just like pointless pressure to add bulk to your post.
Only new development since my last post is I'm working on a townread for gumshoe, but after he fucked us in nuclear I can't be as sure.
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Ace has subbed in for EchelonTee
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On July 17 2013 03:09 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2013 20:24 raynpelikoneet wrote:On July 16 2013 14:05 FirmTofu wrote:On July 16 2013 13:48 slOosh wrote:
Hey guys.
If people are unsure about how to mason, they should just avoid using it. Worst thing we can do is have all the discussion going on in PM land and nothing to go off of someone's alignment other than their mason's read on them.
While Vayne made a personal choice not to mason, you seem to be directing people to avoid using it. Do you have an inherent motivation to discourage people from masoning? A discussion in "PM land" doesn't prevent discussions from happening in thread. I can't see why you would recommend people not to mason at all. I actually second this. Sloosh answer. This is really stupid, everyone should mason. There is no reason not to. Why do you think there is? ##Vote: slOosh Show me where I said no one should mason.
I meant you are discouraging people to mason if they are unsure of what to do with PM's. That's dumb. Why are you telling people they don't need to mason anyone if they do not want to? Of course they do, because it helps town.
If you are unsure of what to do with your PM's and therefore do not mason, don't listen to slOosh, he should know better.
Mason me and i'll tell you what to do. FFS you can ask your mason partner how you should use your PM's, and tell the thread what he said. Be creative and not fall into this dumb "i'm so bad in off-thread comm, i ignore it" bullshit.
I will lynch you if you ignore it, because off thread comm helps town more than it helps mafia. It gives the town opportunity to make plans and catch scum in different ways. And don't give that bullshit "what if you mason mafia or are wrong about your read". That'll come clear eventually, or you out your logs and someone else might be able to see it.
TLDR;
Everyone needs to mason 2 people, not necessarily at the start of the game. If you dont know what to do with PM's, mason me.
gumshoe explain to me how you reached your conclusion in the DrH/FirmTofu exchange?[/QUOTE]
Meapeak, Ve is right, this quote belongs to Rayne not me, I was of the opinion we should set up chains and I remain of that opinion, though its been adjusted now t hat I realize we get two Pms. Therefore your only reason for not Masoning me is wrong, So in light of that.... Can you mason me? I'd really appreciate the discussion seeing as I know your a solid player.
Otherwise you owe me a couple posts
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EPT
