|
On March 30 2013 17:22 ThePeashooter wrote:
Even if you are scum, if you are winning purely because you spammed the thread that's not a real win. That would be equivalent to me trying to get you modkilled because I think you are scum. Winning the game through illegitimate methods defeats the point in playing the game.
And I don't believe you will try. I told you how to not triple post, how to not keep posting on your BlazingHand account and you ignored me multiple times and proceeded to triple post.
what?
Do you think cheesing in Starcraft is an illegitimate way to win?
Do you think using a triple pronged drop as Terran is an illegitimate win because you're forcing the opponent to multitask?
Like, I really don't understand this. There is nothing in the rules against posting a lot. It simply sounds like you're butthurt over BH playing to his wincondition.
What would be against the rules would be something like betting money on someone flipping a certain alignment, or doing something that's outside of the realm of the game (i.e. using encryption, or writing a script to spam the thread, or something similar) to gain an advantage.
Posting a lot is not illegitimate, and it's honestly laughable that you consider it so even when plenty of townies posted more than BH. If you don't know what I'm talking about, look at both VE's and Mocsta's filters.
You calling it an illegitimate strategy is just evidence that you are biased against BH's style in this particular case, as I don't see you telling Mocsta and VE that they fucked over town with their play.
|
On March 30 2013 17:30 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2013 17:26 Blazinghand wrote:
Also, and I'm gonna be 100% clear here, I DO access Wade Fell from chrome and Blazinghand from Firefox, and I have done this for all my smurfs. I'm actually dumb enough that I forget what browser I'm using. I can't go saying this in the thread during the game though because nobody will believe me. I'd believe you  I had you caught halfway into D1. My real question is why when I present a bus attempt does no one even read it? I know that Wiggles noted in his case that I had a 5-6 page filter and he had me at null (which I was ecstatic about), but I really think that newbs get listened to far less often than they should.
no one read it probably because people are less inclined to look at more inactive posters, and because there were simply so many posts to begin with.
|
On March 30 2013 17:40 VisceraEyes wrote:
Trying to make your opponents rage quit by being a huge dick isn't a legit strategy Bugs.
I don't see how spamming = being a huge dick.
By your own words you and Mocsta did much more to hurt your own team than BH ever did.
|
I don't try to make people quit as scum.
In fact I'm probably far more civil as scum than town.
|
also, this is one thing to think about:
a lot of people use confrontation as a town tell.
If a player is confrontational, a lot of people say, or willing to take attention, or do controversial things, or say things that are dumb/say things loudly/provoke reactions, a lot of people will get a town read on them for those things.
Using those facts as scum, in my opinion, is hard, but extremely effective.
|
On March 30 2013 17:53 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +Blazinghand in the Obs QT
Mocsta the point is that this town isn't actually incompetent. Town competence is measured in a different way than most people think. Let me explain: During late D1 and N1, when we were discussing NKs, the three NKs I pushed hardest were: GreyMist, Ace, VE, Sandroba, and Mr. Wiggles. I also had a few others I was thinking about, but those guys I really wanted dead. Why? Because right or wrong, these guys are natural leaders.
And although I was initially thinking "I hope scum wins, town doesn't deserve to win this" I really think I've walked back that sentiment. A lot of townies individually played quite well given the circumstances. This strikes me as a pretty average TL town in terms of quality, but a few bad mislynches has deprived the town of leaders. Early in the game, leaders are pretty important. Town is flailing around right now not because this town is incompetent, but because the conversational elements necessary to catch scum have all been lynched or shot before they could really develop.
Zona once mentioned there are different player archetypes and they fit together interestingly. Some players, like me, check the thread a lot and post a lot. Some players check the thread a few times a day, and read the full thread, and post a fair amount. Some players only check in once or twice a day, and post more rarely. Orthogonally, you can also classify town player's skill level / mindset. A small number of townies are actively bad. Not talking about those atm. Another slightly larger group of townies is able to cut through the chaff and find scum, posting excellent cases. These guys, when they roll town, are town leaders. The majority of town players are not town leaders, but can recognize a good and well-founded case when they see one. This is why it's so important as scum to eliminate townies who can lead good lynches.
When we shot VE and Keirathi N1 it was because they are both capable of stabilizing town and leading it. Luckily, VE has a big weakness for pissing contests, so when he survived, I was able to OMGUS him pretty hard and prevent him from being effective at least until I was shot. Our N2 hits were on Vivax and Sciberbia. Normally Vivax wouldn't merit a hit but one of us had gotten a blueread on him. Sciberbia was on our short list of "potential town leaders" along with VE, which is why he was shot. We still weren't sure what the deal was with VE and he was unbalanced enough we were willing to let him live another day. Basically, we were shooting calm guys who were capable of corralling the typical townie, the average player who knows a good case when he sees it but has trouble constantly writing them in the heat of the game. The Lynches D1, D2, and D3 basically helped behead town.
The N3 kills I didn't have input on, being dead, but the VE shot is obvious: the man can't be allowed to gain momentum. All my attempts to fling shit at him died with my flip, which means he was going to be obvious-town leader going into the lategame. The coag shot was more questionable, but we basically shot him because 1) he was gradually catching us all, and 2) some players thought he blueslipped. FWIW I think coag would have been valuable to town at LYLO just because the guy has some good analysis skills, despite what was said.
The N5 kills were a bit funny. We didn't meant to shoot DP/Test, we meant to shoot TPS/Test, but the host accidentally flipped DP and Test and there's no taking that back. TPS because he was gradually calming down, Test since he shot me. DP wasn't the worst accidental NK but not a valuable one either.
You'll note that looking at the list of players alive right now, although it's not like these dudes are obviously bad, there are no leaders to provide direction. Most of the town leaders died via lynch or were really mad when they died, so their last words were not recorded or referenced seriously by the others. I don't think this town was unusually bad, but the leadership was shot out from under them, the thread was chaotic, and a lot of scum players played really well. I'd have been lynched eventually, but town now is rudderless. Ace, Wiggles, VE, Kei, Sandro/Moc, Grey, Scib-- there are a lot of people who might have united town and fought us. Even Ace, for all his follies, at least would have been able to direct the lynch.
explain
Ace noob
|
On September 05 2011 00:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
Idc if someone's playing like a noob I'll call them out.
Ace.
|
On March 30 2013 17:57 Ace wrote:
explain
![[image loading]](http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3jvytTE1C1qbx51ho1_250.gif)
+ Show Spoiler +
and yes, that lynch was weird as fuck.
I wanted to push a second mislynch d2 and then just take all the attention in the world, but Wiggles had a better idea, so we let him do his thing.
Then he died too. lol.
|
On March 30 2013 18:00 Ace wrote:
I was asleep. But seriously I didn't even have a ton of time and I thought I made well reasoned posts, trying to keep everyone focused on 1 thing at a time. Somehow I got blamed for "telling everyone to stop scumhunting" and got lynched.
Sigh v_v
that's why I smurfed (not enough time to keep up my posting standard).
if I was on my normal acc I would've definitely played a different game. Well, if I was forced to not smurf I probably wouldn't have played, but w/e.
+ Show Spoiler +also note that I mean I felt like I could've posted satisfactorily, but it would have been less than normal, i.e. I would take a lot of flak from people for not posting enough to my meta
|
On March 30 2013 18:04 Ace wrote:
smh that meta shit made re-reading this a fucking pain. half the finger pointing was "yo you aint playin to your meta - SCUM!".
yeah speaking of, I read your post about meta and I disagree to an extent.
Having talked to Foolishness (and having used his ideas) meta is IMO, a lot of the time, really really important. There are a lot of players who play wildly differently based on alignment.
With that said, I can agree with your general sentiment, not because meta is bad, but because it is used badly. I know it's been discussed quite a bit before, but I think the biggest failing is that people associate any change in behavior with a change in alignment. Games are not one to one, and context needs to be considered. Most important obviously though is the motivation for an action, and I think that's a problem with town analysis in general, not just meta analysis.
I think the biggest problem town had this game was focusing on the motivation behind the actions of players, rather than simply looking at what they were doing. I know it's stressed in Ver's guide but I still don't think people focus on it enough. It's hard, but I don't think the conscious effort is always there.
From a scum perspective meta and motivation are important too; it's how we pegged Vivax as a blue. Both kita and myself pegged Vivax as blue day 1 for separate reasons (read the QT for more) and it was primarily based on the motivation behind different posts he made. kita pegged him on a meta-analysis of his games, and I pegged him based on a single sentence he said. Since both of us agreed on it we were pretty confident he was blue, so he became a priority kill on n2 (though on n1 we chose to ignore him)
|
thanks to the hosts, btw, for hosting.
I'd love to discuss the game on the podcast at some point, and it seems like there are at least a couple others who want to participate as well.
|
On March 31 2013 02:17 strongandbig wrote:
I need to figure out how wbg got so completely found out but managed not to get lynched. It was like, somehow at various points during the game, many of the most influential townies made correct cases on him but they never made it a priority and he still managed to not get lynched or even to be under serious threat of getting lynched. Talk about slippery.
I don't think it's too hard, but my mentality is basically this:
I don't fear (most) players, so even if they are right, I will ensure I won't get lynch traction. Really the only two things I fear are vigis and my own teammates (yes, as weird as that sounds). However, you can encourage or lead your teammates so that they generally are not a problem. You don't have to baby your teammates, just set them straight when they panic or worry about things that should not be a concern.
This game I definitely played slightly differently at the least to how I normally do as scum, at least in my opinion. I tried to emulate Ace in being able to influence a lynch while simultaneously taking no/little pressure for it. I tied it to my own style; I think Ace as scum wouldn't necessarily lead a lynch, but I did on day 1. Obviously leading a lynch makes it harder to shake suspicion, but if you stress the validity and reasonability of what you say I think you can get away with a lot. You can basically get away with murder in this game.
So, what do I do when someone accuses me?
Well, most of the time there is some element of bias or something at the very least that I can refute. Depending on your accuser you can either turn it around on them, or reason it out. I reasoned more seriously with DYH, for example, while I turned it on VE. That's because I predicted what type of reaction they would both have, and I benefited both times. (I expected DYH to back off and I expected VE to attack me more and thus split targets, making him an easy lynch if needed, and making it easier to manipulate his target focus as well)
Mostly it's by feel but being able to not get lynched isn't terribly difficult if you always focus on the important things. You don't have to respond to everything either, since it's not what you would do as town.
|
On March 31 2013 06:25 geript wrote:
Out of curiousity, Bugs what do you think of my points?
all good things to remember but I think 7 and 8 are the most important.
In fact I would say that you can win a game as scum simply if you know how to abuse perspective.
|
if layabout even considered bussing us I was ready to shoot him and claim as a vig.
Also I'm sure he considered the fact that if he's catching all these scum, how does he escape the lynch long enough to live, since if he wasn't just bussing he'd just get shot by scum.
On March 31 2013 09:41 Ace wrote:
Do I need to explain the VE case again? Because I think some of you are overthinking the situation when it's really simple. Stop being results oriented and be process oriented. There is no difference between 3rd party recruiter and Scum: they are both Anti-Town factions.
yep, agreed, which is why the whole thing about cosmic being a bad lynch was stupid. Sure, he was 3rd party, but his interest is literally the same as scum's.
|
with RE to the third party, Ace is right. You can't trust the 3P to not have KP, you can't trust the 3P to be telling the truth, and you can never trust your reads well enough to know that instead of killing the 3P you will definitely kill scum.
The only situation in which I might consider not killing the 3P when it's known there is one, is if there was a red check on someone and we were certain it was real.
Considering the fact that killing a scum on that day would not have pushed lylo any further back, killing 3rd party was the absolute best option in that situation. (this is because the 3P would have gained a member)
It's only if you will lose unless you kill scum that you should ever ignore a 3p, and those types of situations are so rare, I do not think I've ever seen one on TL.
e: most importantly, in this situation the 3P recruiter is indistinguishable from a scum recruiter.
|
I'm gonna call out RoL on the spamming = illegitimate strategy bullshit because his go-to strategy as scum is to lurk and not post until absolutely necessary to avoid a modkill.
If anything, THAT is an illegitimate strategy, given that you purposely only post to avoid a modkill. I myself would strongly consider replacing or modkilling you for that type of strategy in one of my games, because my rules explicitly state that trying to skirt an inactivity modkill will result in one.
Clearly the host this game did not have a problem with spam, otherwise people would have been warned for it. (and if they were, I am not aware of it). Calling it an illegitimate strategy is honestly self-deceptive, almost like a cop-out for not playing well.
|
On March 31 2013 12:44 ThePeashooter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 12:39 RyuSuzaku wrote:
I'm gonna call out RoL on the spamming = illegitimate strategy bullshit because his go-to strategy as scum is to lurk and not post until absolutely necessary to avoid a modkill.
If anything, THAT is an illegitimate strategy, given that you purposely only post to avoid a modkill. I myself would strongly consider replacing or modkilling you for that type of strategy in one of my games, because my rules explicitly state that trying to skirt an inactivity modkill will result in one.
Clearly the host this game did not have a problem with spam, otherwise people would have been warned for it. (and if they were, I am not aware of it). Calling it an illegitimate strategy is honestly self-deceptive, almost like a cop-out for not playing well. You knew me at a different time. I used to post a lot and play a lot regardless of alignment. This is what I absolutely hated and why I stopped playing. I was busy with school/work/gf and didn't have the time to contribute as much as I used to be able to. I'd look at the thread and there would be 50 pages for me to read and I straight up didn't have time. It had nothing to do with me being scum but somehow everyone assumed it did. I did it as town too and kept getting lynched D3 and had my ass rode until I died for like 5 games straight. I couldn't put in the time because of how much mafia games have changed over the years. That's why I stopped playing and that's why I played this game on a smurf. I didn't feel like getting typed into playing in a specific way based on literally no reasoning. My life and responsibilities have changed since I started playing mafia and so has the current meta of the game itself. With both attributes changing drastically I was unable to play in the same way I used to. It has nothing to do with me flipping scum. Take a look at Insane Mafia, or some of my other games as scum from years ago. I had no issue posting a lot and staying active with the thread. It's just that times have changed.
fair enough, but it's one thing to frown upon spamming and another thing completely to classify it as "illegitimate".
Obviously no town likes an overly spammy game, just as no town will like an overly inactive game. That's why there's a policy such as lynch all lurkers. If there's a style of play that you don't like or you think is detrimental to town, the onus is on you to push an idea or policy that will limit that type of play.
Taking your approach is not going to improve your play IMO.
|
On March 31 2013 12:50 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think since it is actively discouraging other players from playing for a reason not specifically within the game then it is illegitimate. I see purposely making the game unreadable, or inadvertently making the game unreadable due to constant posting for no reason as a detriment to the game as a whole regardless of alignment.
again, you have this irrational bias against BH because he was scum. What Mocsta and VE did is identical (actually, arguably much worse) yet you have nothing against them because they spammed as town.
This is a huge double standard.
Two solutions to this:
1. request that some sort of rule change be made (and it's unlikely to happen, given how hazy the idea of spamming is-what constitutes it? What's the cutoff? The punishment?)
2. deal with it in-game.
IMO number 2 is unequivocally the better option. Hosts already warn for spam, and there's not much else you can do for it.
|
the policy vig idea is pretty stupid, just give players a regular vig.
It's almost impossible to cleanly define lurking and spamming given that activity standards change with time.
|
On March 31 2013 13:11 cosmicomics wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 13:08 RyuSuzaku wrote:
the policy vig idea is pretty stupid, just give players a regular vig.
It's almost impossible to cleanly define lurking and spamming given that activity standards change with time.
Eh, depends on do you want to win the game vs. do you want to improve overall play of TL Mafia (and have less chance winning that specific game)? Because I'd probably keep the vig for a strong scum read (for the sake of winning), rather than shooting into lurkers / players with playstyles I don't like.
there's literally no difference between a 1 shot policy vig and a 1 shot vig other than one is limited by who you can shoot.
It's also incredibly hard to balance because the cutoffs for spamming/lurking are completely subjective (so to make it fair you'd probably need to do something like have someone who doesn't have the roles determine whether the shot is valid or not) and if you argue that you can add KP for such a role, then you need to balance for that KP.
It's an ugly way to deal with something that arguably isn't a problem that needs to be fixed with roles in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
