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On February 28 2013 12:44 JungleJorge wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 12:24 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I think we should lynch Vivax. Go look through his post, he started off by saying the best way to find scum is to find people that take the game seriously instead of trolling. After putting a bunch of people in that category, he was only willing to point a finger at JJ. Not actively interested in the Prom case but spends a ton of time only to slap a null read on there.
The way he reacted to me initially calling me out is troubling. He didn't OMGUS but did have a bunch of insults and mockeries to throw my way.
I'm getting kinda woozy and doubtful, I hate night 1 because I start rolling over in second guesses. I need to reset my head. I'm nowhere near ready to start reading Toades' filter, I'll need at least 2 more beers before I attempt that. I'm actually leaning town on vivax. Besides his filter size and his general inquisitive attitude towards other players, there is also his long post that he comments on several others. One of those is me, who he actually mixed up with another player and came to the conclusion I was scum based on another player filter. To me that indicates that he had several filters opened when writing it and thus is likely townie. I believe mafia would not only be more careful, but decide their target first before attacking someone. I think we should focus on those 2 (TMM and RO) tomorrow instead.
I dunno who u r, so asking in general: Are you aware of Vivax meta, and read any of his past games?
I need to know if you're using standard mafia player heuristics, because in my opinion, Vivax is an exception to the rule.
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dunno on that one, Vivax is a crazy muda farker that has no problems bussing (without QT consent).. look at his game with Toad in ?Fruity?
He acts like a lone ranger... even when town does the same thing
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On February 28 2013 12:54 The Macho Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 12:53 MilkSuckler wrote:
dunno on that one, Vivax is a crazy muda farker that has no problems bussing (without QT consent).. look at his game with Toad in ?Fruity?
He acts like a lone ranger... even when town does the same thing thats not what we are talking about but ok
I disagree
I think your using the heuristic that scum is meticulous and careful... and him making mistakes and having multiple filters open is town indicative.
I can tell you now, I am not as crazy as Vivax, and when I roll scum I have no prblem opening 10 filters and doing a list post.
Its easy to make fuck ups on big posts, its hard to proof them.. and often there is lack of motivation to re-read them as they take ages to put together.
So yeah, if thats what you and JJ agree on.. then I disagree vehemently for that to be a town heuristic.
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JJ.. I find it curious you have been so forth coming with your reads this Cycle.
It is safe to say you were never a NK candidate...
Is it not convenient this all comes about after Dr.H threatens you as a valid Vig target?
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JJ...
Im reading through prome/aqua filter now.. but whilst I am doing that.
If aqua was indeed mafia, does that make OO confirmed town for you?
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On February 28 2013 13:53 JungleJorge wrote:
I haven't looked into OO, nor I think that's how I should be spending my time. As I've read the thread normally he didn't seem suspicious to me. Why would aqua being scum make OO confirmed town in your opinion?
I would think if you read through aqua filter, my point would be clear... (yes I am being vague intentionally...)
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Just in case it wasnt clear, and the point above was needlessly aggressive.
Aqua prime focus has been OO... its difficult to swallow that aqua play as scum is *so* weak, he can only muster the courage to make reads on scum brethren OO.
Thus, the conclusion for me at least would be, if aqua was scum, OO is cleared by association.. perhaps.. confirmed town is wrong because I forgot about existence of 3rd party. So if that was your pretense, fair enough.
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Thanks OO.. I need to re-read this
It looked great at first glance, but from my first read I am not convinced he is leaning town. (or whether the content is actually that analytical...)
e.g.
I am not sure why focusing on smurfs is akin to lurker rage; nor why a large list post of reads is a clear town trait.
The content in that list post.. well milkman summarised the fluff of it quite well.
I appreciate the effort none-the-less.
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JJ
I read through aqua filter.. i am going to need more that your comments above for him to have traction (with me)
I dont think aqua has been particularly useful, but, I like his filter regardless.
Theres a degree of tunneling in there, that I think is more synonymous with town play vs scum play.
Usually as scum I try to tunnel two or three players to keep my options open.. I dont see this in aqua filter.
The major point i didnt like with him was his vote for Wade Fell, where he felt the need to still say OO was his top candidate, before committing to a prome lynch... that post read a bit forced
+ Show Spoiler +On February 26 2013 19:44 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 19:19 Wade Fell wrote:
If Prom was really trying to raise discussion with his rng as he claims, he'd have actually gotten into discussions with people. Any townie would naturally get arguing and get involved as people disagreed with him, especially one who was taking a position specifically for the purpose of starting discussions. A town Prom, if he did this, would have a bunch of posts, quote chains of him discussing RNG with haters, drumming up support, etc, and forcing scum to take stances. That's what a town player bringing up discussion looks like. Prom does NOT do this. Prom is scum. OK, I buy this. ##Vote: Wade FellI'm still in favour of a lynch on Obvious because I feel like he overreacted to my pressure on him and since my interaction with him all he has is a filter page's worth of useless fluff. In fact, all of Obvious's filter is useless fluff. There's more than one scum in the game though and I agree, Prom's failure to actually try to make anything happen with his RNG gambit does not evoke towny feelings.
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On February 26 2013 19:09 Aquanim wrote:
And on Prom, do you think his posturing over RNG is necessarily a scum move? Suggesting a RNG lynch while knowing full well it's a terrible idea is a gambit I've seen before, and "gambit" was the first thing I thought when I saw it. Not sure whether people who did it previously were scum or not though. Still, I don't see how it couldn't be town-motivated, as a method to create discussion.
Aqua,
The above is *really* conflicting my thought process on you. I need a fleshed out response.
Explain to me how discussion of RNG can stimulate meaningful discussion as townie.
I am now uncertain how you mentality shifted from soft-defending a guy based on "could be town motivation" to clear that is scummy.. when the evidence presented never changed.
Please keep in mind the below:
- Our conversation of RNG during the pre-game of NMM37.
- The crux of Toad point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
- The crux of VE point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
- The crux of Dr.H point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
- The crux of MilkSuckler point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
- The crux of Wade Fell point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
The points Wade walked you through introduced nothing that the others points did not already address
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On February 28 2013 15:55 VisceraEyes wrote:
Actually the crux of my problem with Prom was the way he attacked WoS but did NOT attack Vivax for the same reasoning...which led to my interaction with him in which he got way scummy. But my main point was the attacking WoS but not Vivax.
Nice de-lurk.
To be frank, I didnt re-read anyones Prome points when writing that.. does it really matter? Me don't think so.
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On February 28 2013 15:44 Wade Fell wrote:Wow I'm so bad quoted for filter purposes Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 15:43 Blazinghand wrote:On February 28 2013 15:42 MilkSuckler wrote:- The crux of Wade Fell point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
The points Wade walked you through introduced nothing that the others points did not already address >MFW people hate on my mad explication sklls
Do you have something useful to contribute?... cos your e-peen is looking pretty flaccid to me
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On February 28 2013 15:53 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 15:42 MilkSuckler wrote:On February 26 2013 19:09 Aquanim wrote:
And on Prom, do you think his posturing over RNG is necessarily a scum move? Suggesting a RNG lynch while knowing full well it's a terrible idea is a gambit I've seen before, and "gambit" was the first thing I thought when I saw it. Not sure whether people who did it previously were scum or not though. Still, I don't see how it couldn't be town-motivated, as a method to create discussion. Aqua,The above is *really* conflicting my thought process on you. I need a fleshed out response. Explain to me how discussion of RNG can stimulate meaningful discussion as townie.
I am now uncertain how you mentality shifted from soft-defending a guy based on "could be town motivation" to clear that is scummy.. when the evidence presented never changed. Please keep in mind the below:
- Our conversation of RNG during the pre-game of NMM37.
- The crux of Toad point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
- The crux of VE point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
- The crux of Dr.H point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
- The crux of MilkSuckler point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
- The crux of Wade Fell point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
The points Wade walked you through introduced nothing that the others points did not already address Well, I'm still convinced that RNG is bad. Discussing it might not have been, and I thought that people were claiming that the gambit itself was scummy. Until Wade emphasised it I hadn't realised just how little effort Prom had put into trying to get it discussed. Perhaps that had been emphasised earlier, I have no idea - this is a large thread and I haven't read it all thoroughly. In any case, asking WF those questions had another purpose - exploring just how much conviction he had for the case, and how thoroughly he had thought it through. Me no like that answer.
Nice sell on the discourse with Wade Fell but not the point of my question.
You know RNG is bad.
And I am not asking if the gambit is scummy.
I want to know specifically how you think RNG discussion can be beneficial to town discussion, considering that was a major reason of you not accepting the case (initially)
On February 26 2013 19:09 Aquanim wrote:
Still, I don't see how it couldn't be town-motivated, as a method to create discussion.
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On February 28 2013 15:55 VisceraEyes wrote:
Actually the crux of my problem with Prom was the way he attacked WoS but did NOT attack Vivax for the same reasoning...which led to my interaction with him in which he got way scummy. But my main point was the attacking WoS but not Vivax.
Since you de-lurked.. have your thoughts evolved on OO now that he unleashed his case 2.0 format?
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On February 28 2013 16:07 Wade Fell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2013 16:02 MilkSuckler wrote:On February 28 2013 15:44 Wade Fell wrote:Wow I'm so bad quoted for filter purposes On February 28 2013 15:43 Blazinghand wrote:On February 28 2013 15:42 MilkSuckler wrote:- The crux of Wade Fell point(s) was the lack of RNG discussion
The points Wade walked you through introduced nothing that the others points did not already address >MFW people hate on my mad explication sklls Do you have something useful to contribute?... cos your e-peen is looking pretty flaccid to me 1) yes 2) usually just after climax i am quite flaccid
Guess now we know the genesis of Blazing hand.
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On February 28 2013 16:18 Aquanim wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
I want to know specifically how you think RNG discussion can be beneficial to town discussion, considering that was a major reason of you not accepting the case (initially)
Lemme lay out a possible scenario. - Promethelax runs for mayor on the platform of a RNG lynch
- Someone calls bullshit
On February 26 2013 09:19 JungleJorge wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 09:12 Promethelax wrote:On February 26 2013 09:09 MilkSuckler wrote:On February 26 2013 09:07 Promethelax wrote:
1. Vote for me, vote for RNG. I have a 1 in five shot at lynching scum and it will be hilariously awesome,
You gonna include yourself in that RNG dear If I am allowed to lynch myself day one. Yes. I believe in true RNG. Isn't that retarded as both alignments?
- Promethelax tells them they're stupid
On February 26 2013 09:30 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 09:19 JungleJorge wrote:On February 26 2013 09:12 Promethelax wrote:On February 26 2013 09:09 MilkSuckler wrote:On February 26 2013 09:07 Promethelax wrote:
1. Vote for me, vote for RNG. I have a 1 in five shot at lynching scum and it will be hilariously awesome,
You gonna include yourself in that RNG dear If I am allowed to lynch myself day one. Yes. I believe in true RNG. Isn't that retarded as both alignments? Yes? But the idea of a random lynch is good. You should be able to see why. Assuming you don't suck, which I'm assuming.
- Entering the realm of hypothesis where town prom did this: some scum attacks prom for making a bad case
On Feburary 30 2013 26:04 Some imaginary scum wroteShow nested quote +Yes? But the idea of a random lynch is good. You should be able to see why. Assuming you don't suck, which I'm assuming. That post is terrible and wrong u scum bro lolol
- Prom nails them for making a shitty case
On February 26 2013 09:07 Imaginary Town Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On Feburary 30 2013 26:04 Some imaginary scum wroteYes? But the idea of a random lynch is good. You should be able to see why. Assuming you don't suck, which I'm assuming. That post is terrible and wrong u scum bro lolol yeah the post was stupid but how does it have scum mentality? your case is bad and a townie wouldn't make it no u scum. bro.
tl;dr - baiting scum to attack you (in a way which will expose them as scum) by making an easily attackable post is a conceivable town tactic.
##Vig: Aquanim
Wrong answer
The conversation I had with Prome pre-game actually supports your hypothesis.
the problem is: promes actions in-game....Which conveniently you quoted for me already 
Yes? But the idea of a random lynch is good. You should be able to see why. Assuming you don't suck, which I'm assuming.
Let me bring to the fore points I raised in my case of Prome
On February 26 2013 13:55 MilkSuckler wrote:
(1) Conjecture: I have PM correspondance with prome (pre-LX) that state explicitly he is against RNG as it is both anti-town and stupid play.
...
(2) Track History: Both Nomination & NMM37 contained proponents of RNG. They were both scum. Though this does not guarantee Prome as scum; it does suggest scum are more willing to run with it than town.
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(1) Outcome: Mentions the RNG play didn't generate the discussion he wanted. Yet responds to people with "pro-town gems" like: "you should be able to see why. Assuming you don't suck". There is no effort in his filter to prompt further discourse; and when others critically query him, he immediately shuts them down with insults.
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(2) The plan: Provides details of the RNG plan to unveil scum - because only scum would support RNG. Ironically scum proponent: Djodref, took a similar stance in Nomination mafia. This is a very convenient stance any RNG proponent can outline; without dispute. The real question is whether prome went out of his way to facilitate discussion and identify RNG supporters. The short answer is: no"
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(2) RNG: You can include RNG as a sudden shift as it lost momentum. The whole play read like a farce with zero commitment.
...
His RNG behaviour is classic scum mentality; and I believe if a townie ever pushed for RNG it would be performed with a lot more transparency.
There is no fucking way a townie goes about achieving a trap like that the way prome went about it.
I actually have respect for your play; and know you pride yourself on picking up bullshit like what Prome did.
That you turn a blind eye (repeatedly)... well... there is nothing to say
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On February 28 2013 16:25 VisceraEyes wrote:
Frankly the fact that he put so much effort into looking into Vivax for you rather than giving Vivax a once over and getting immediately on looking for scum on his terms speaks volumes in my opinion.
Yes it does: and none of it necessarily a town tell.
So what does the above mean for you then:
On February 28 2013 16:23 VisceraEyes wrote:
Well it certainly looks like he put a lot of effort into it. I disagree with his conclusion, but that's neither here nor there. My read on him will depend on what kind of effort goes into a scum read of his - not looking into someone at the behest of someone else. Does that speak volumes too?
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On February 28 2013 16:32 VisceraEyes wrote:
What are you asking me?
You said.. OO looking into someone @ my bequest speaks volumes of him
The inference is town (I imagine)
You on the other hand, u said, you wont look into someone @ the bequest of someone
What is the inference then lol?
the comment was tongue in cheek and prob more rhetorical than actual.. Thanks for treating it srs anyways (i think??)
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[b]Wade Fell[/ Anyone else that knows VE/b]
I assume you know VE game well.
Is he capable of drastically changing up his meta/style between two/three games in a row?
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On February 28 2013 16:41 VisceraEyes wrote:
Nonono you're misunderstanding me.
THE EFFORT speaks volumes not the action. He put ALL THAT EFFORT into reading Vivax' filter and pouring over meta and whatever the fuck...for a townread...for you. It looks scummy to me. Why not spend that "2 hours" on putting together a case against someone? He's under heavy attack, he needs to find scum. One of the major points against him is that he's had like no scum reads.
I looked at Obvious' post because it was new and commented on it. There's a vast difference.
Awesome.. I was fucking hoping you meant that. Cool
I would love to say that was a "trap".. but yes.. was just honest misinterpretation 
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On February 28 2013 16:40 Aquanim wrote:Out of curiosity, what would have been the right answer? If there wasn't one, maybe you oughta reexamine your read for confirmation bias...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=399294¤tpage=97#1940
You gave the right answer... thats why it is the wrong answer.
You have proven you understand the reasoning behind town/scum logic with RNG discussion.
Yet is clear VERY clear.. promes actions do not support the sound reasoning you proposed.
You even quote his behaviour and turn a blind eye.
For me:
This actually for me proves you are scum.. you KNOWINGLY turned a blind eye to what you know (as a townie) *stinks*
I conclude with:
On February 28 2013 16:28 MilkSuckler wrote:
##Vig: Aquanim
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EPT
