TL Mafia LIX - Page 10

On January 19 2013 17:42 AxleGreaser wrote:
Ahhh fuck. The wind has changed directions

Ahhhhfuck indeed a big question, so big I have no place or right to comment, except that in ternms of where I stand I suppose I always have some rights, so whatever these words apply to me and my views you .... especially if you are experienced are actively encouraged to ignore them.
you ... especially if you are the best judge on your own limits before you rage, are actively encouraged to ignore them.

I don't even actually claim what I now say is relevant to this point in time just that I thought of it now while considering long term possibilities and ramifications of possible choices that I could make at some point in time.

The spoilers expand rather a lot... especially the quote one
+ Show Spoiler [stuf to be ignored ] +

but is stated because it is
+ Show Spoiler +

Ok so I probably/possibly or maybe just spent more intellectual effort thinking about this than perhaps some people have the current intention of + Show Spoiler [(observably)] +

(I got no idea how much people actively lurking do)(I iknow I spend more time ina solo obs than some players seem to do in game... sooo anything is possible I suppose even if stupidly unreasonable or likely)

spending on the game...

I did however reach some useful conclusions, they are not small conclusions as they are about the larger game theoretic sense of what make s the game of mafia the most fun for the most people for the mostest of the time that possible across many games. Hence they are to me important, but that increased the waffle and piffle factor enormously.

This guy seemed to know something some people respect, I too find this analysis to have depth, wisdom experience and unsderstanding + Show Spoiler +

On March 28 2010 21:27 Ace wrote:

Show nested quote +

sorry I missed this post earlier ^_^

If we introduce a policy like this no matter what it is players will post just enough to avoid being mod killed. We can't exactly say we require players to post 5 times per day or risk mod kills because they will just post 6 times per day and be considered lurking based on the new rules. If mods want to ban specific players from their games I'm all for it. Forum wide bans on lurking is just asking for trouble because lurking isn't always easy to define.

Secondly even though I myself don't exactly favor it lurking is a part of the game. In fact lurking is a major part of the game I wish more skilled players would address. Lurking itself is actually not a scum or town tell. Yes it's anti-town in most game setups to lurk. Reasons being that town and even Mafia do benefit from more posting. Problem is lurking will eventually result in a town loss, a ticked off mod and even observers who will policy lynch lurkers the next time they play with them. Yes the guy not posting isn't giving you information to work with - then players can tell mods if so and so plays they won't be playing leading that player to either clean up their act or just not be invited/banned from future games. Letting the players deal with it in this way can be even harsher than a forum wide ban.

Thirdly as a meta tactic it's just good to lynch lurkers when you don't have better options. Imo lurkers are usually either pretty bad players, or people trying to "hide" which if the game is filled with talkative players means death. Town should always punish lurkers either through lynch or Vigi kills if need be. Some guy lurking through the game isn't going to show up in a LYLO situation and save you. They don't help you and are in essence a loss. Kill them now or rely on them later and pay the price when they get rolled.

Now as for random elements to the game - that's bound to happen. If the town has to lynch a lurker that very discussion can and often does generate some decent information about where players stand on the issue. It also forces that player to play the game or get rolled. Yea we know Abenson isn't exactly the most active player on the forum and that's part of the reason he was brought up early as a lynch candidate in several games. Players know he isn't reliable and relatively useless on the grand scheme of things - good. Now the town has something to discuss on Day 1. People will random vote, roll dice, always Day 1 vote for a certain player in the game, not take things seriously - and I say let it be. As a player in the game whether you are town or Mafia you can and should use these things to advance your win condition. People want to play stupid and you're Mafia? Good. Obliterate them and show them how they need to get better or risk people treating them like shit in games. It's the major difference imo between someone like L and someone like Chezinu. Both of them are wrong a lot of the time and will cause the town to lose. L takes things somewhat seriously and is trying to win no matter how destructive he is. Chezinu will clown around, post nonsense, do nonsense in PMs and no one takes him seriously because he acts dumb. L is regarded as decent to good by some players while Chezinu is universally looked at as a scrub.The player base can and will deal with it over time as people start waking up to how deep this game is.

I have bolded and redded what are to me two critical parts. (trains of thought)
To me, as i think it was to the author, all possible Mfia scum plays are part of the game, part of the inherent true RL worth of the game "mafia scum" is active practice in how to build a just society in the face of inherent, active, intelligent....evil/scum.
(that of course includes active bludgers who want free rides from their teams with no work or effort to the win...)
(As a species i think we could do with some actual practice at that)
For added merit (the game is symmetric(almost(actually its gorgeous))) any mafia town strategy must be capable of beating people of equivalent skill to yourself as sometimes you are the scum. (depends on PM)
IF we have the long term wisdom to "evolve" a team Liquid mafia community that is fun constructive and inclusive then I conclude that is partial evidence the human species is worth saving... it is a Societal Gom Jabaar test if you will.(see Dune) Will the team liquid mafia community chew off its own hand in order to avoid the pain... WTF yeah big questions answered in small test puddles... (I might even be serious)
There is indeed a risk from the community doing
Letting the players deal with it in this way can be even harsher than a forum wide ban. We would need to be sure.
The worst part is then pushing the responsibility/blame for whether to cede to our demands or the other players back on one authority if there was indeed any way we could have dealt with it in game. Especially when the only way to centrally deal with it is black and white.

I suspect a sufficient number of Vigis, or even if it gets serious day Vigis allow the effective implementation of DNFTT.
IMHO, Vigis are the game balance counter weight to purposefully dead weight players, because the choice who to Lynch and who to nk, is how townies vs scum negotiate who will be there at Lylo.... Mayor rebalances the multiple nk powers of the large game a bit at least. If random unuseful players are going to be ubiquitous then vig kills balances that for town by specifically increasing the control they have over who reaches LYLO.... alive.

Vigis (over bans and host based exclusions) have the advantage in that the opportunity not to get vigied always exists thus rather than becoming an absolute you cant play rule its a your on an arbitrary you live as long as takes some random player to decide your being a dick, again.... The unuseful player gets an unknown length of rope to try and show they are not anti town in their play, this game.
The random player is kept honest (not capricious) by the idea that if just maybe the vig kill does not have to be wasted on a waste of space the vig kill can help town... I like self regulating negative feedback systems...
They seem strangely just desserts and proportionate.

As social structure a community, can quickly evolve into a clique, when decisions to exclude become absolute.
This is no "WE". My best take on life is clues to social members on how to behave to be acceptable are best delivered, at first politely, then with a "clue by 4" that is not a gentle approach.

I personally like the concept that each mistake you make simply shortens the length of rope you have before the next consequence hits.

TL Mafia LIX - Page 10

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