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On January 29 2013 12:31 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:lol, I thought you were the same guy posting from the beginning  What was that about consolidating your opinions as hydra? >_> (lol) I disagree about the plays to be honest, because I don't think there is anything alignment-indicative about discussing plays, other than maybe instantly figuring out a game-breaking play or something. It's the same as discussing mason plans, or stuff like that in those big themed games. It is "setup speculation", end of point. Also most likely scum will discuss pro-town plans because the risk of "outing" themselves with the anti-town plans may not be worth it (every time I am scum I discuss in favor of "pro-town plans" for instance). Leaving that aside, what do you think of marv's recent play, him calling you out, arguing with me, etc? /G
We try. Sometimes it doesn't work. It's why we sign our posts...
Anyway, no worries now, Dandel went to bed.
Well, as long as things are going okay for scum, they can just blend in, be pro-townie and have their unstoppable creature kill off town. However, being pro-townie too much and too long has disadvantages. Just as in a regular game you cannot just bus all your scumbuddies and expect to win (well, not most games), you cannot allow townies to create giant armies or get nigh infinite mana to cast giant fireballs of doom.
I for one, think I gleaned some useful information from the discussion.
Finally, Marv's standpoint seems strange. He attacks Dandel for stating the obvious. If you want strange ways of entering the thread, that was it. The ensuing discussion was just pointless bickering. Not much there, until he decides to repeat that what he saw was scummy.
@Marv: why was Dandel stating the obvious scummy?
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On January 29 2013 12:48 BinOnFire wrote:
Did you not say that only scummy players contribute mana towards Minds Aglow?
Then you said that it gives them a chance to look 'townie'
Also, yes town can actually have some teeth, but this is also good for scum in the sense that a Vig is good for scum. More often than not, Vig's shoot town. Same with lynches.
I would think that scum would want to get enough 'power' to 1 shot people as fast as possible to reduce the number of townies, thats why the card is also good for them
/Oats
Wrong Hydra. It was Poster boy who came up with that plan, not us.
Dandel stated the obvious about it: fucking duh that following a plan that majority agrees with is a good one (and is thus a "town plan") gives the sheeples town credit for being a good little sheeple.
Also, vigilantes are one of the stronger power roles. You're deluded (aka wrong) if you think they're pro-scum.
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I made that post.
That scum will VOLUNTARILY follow the plan is clearly something completely different from anybody being able to force them into doing anything. That you think there's a contradiction is you not reading.
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Oh, I see the problem is with my wording. Well tough titties.
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I just said Dandel went to bed, ffs.
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On January 29 2013 13:13 Oatsmaster wrote:
Vig's are pro town, but in a game with no lurkers, the main target of vigi hits, Chances are that they are gonna hit town. Except now we have 7 vigis.
Interesting, why do you think that?
Lolololol. Flooding control. And Dandel had it earlier.
I'll take the time to expound why this is interesting: it implies you have no confidence at all in your own ability to find scum. Is that so?
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On January 29 2013 13:21 BinOnFire wrote:
Chances.
Do you know how probability works?
there are 8 targets, 6 of them are town.
so you hitting town is 75%. Which are really bad odds.
Of course its not static, I could have a town read on a scum and then it becomes 6 town 1 scum, reducing the chances even more.
Its day 1, CH.
I have confidence in my reads, I dont see how that affects my previous statment
I was going to respond with everything that is wrong about this post, but it's just derailing the discussion. Suffice to say, you are wrong. You are looking at the situation of everybody being given a gun in completely the wrong way.
Lets get back on track, which is to point out that giving everybody more power enables town to actually DO stuff, whereas now all we can do is sit and watch an 8/8 mafia beast munch on us. The FASTER we can do stuff, the sooner we can strike back and the greater the chance that we can find and kill the mafias before the mafia beast kills all of us. Sure, mafia also gets stronger, but we get 3.5x as strong as mafia. Additionally, we close the gap on their 8/8 advantage.
That means, they can't just rely on night kills, but have to act. The more mafia is forced to act, the greater the chance of us finding and killing them.
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On January 29 2013 13:23 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 13:13 Clockwork Hydra wrote:
I just said Dandel went to bed, ffs. Well Acro, obviously that wasn't made clear >_> Acro, what do you think of Stutters+Bin? Do you think Midnight could be a "scum mastermi1nd" by claiming his whole deck with a "pro-town" card as that Voyager one, then heavily pushing the Mind Glow play this early? (or also anything about Oats that you may find funny?)
Stutters is hard to say anything much about right now. I am very hesitant to say that Bin is town, because all he has really done is propose a pro-town play. However, given the deck he made, it seems unlikely he could have done any differently as scum. I had Oats' early posts as "too aggressive a start to be scum", but Dandel pointed out that Oats has started aggressively as scum in the past (not sure what game). Oats also seems adamant about pointing out how not pro-town the play actually is, which is just plain weird.
Prom hasn't contacted me yet, but I asked this question to him in our QT (lol scumslip lol) basically.
Stutters hasn't done much (like I'd expect lol), but his reaction to my plan seemed kind of townie for some reason. Like the way he instantly jumped on it being a "good idea", instead of waiting to see if the plan had support or not.
Could be a red herring, but what do you think?
Meh, as I said, it's mind-numbingly obvious that there's about 10,000 loopholes in your plan, on top of the fact that Stutters stated that he currently has nothing to spend his mana on anyway.
Anyway, it's way past bedtime for me as well. G'night.
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On January 29 2013 13:45 BinOnFire wrote:
Ok for you, the reason why you want me to play Minds Aglow is to play 20 skeletons.
That is the only reason so dont be all so 'herp derp town more cards = better'
So do you disagree with my point? Or what.
Dude, did you even read my post? I don't mention zombies at all. In fact, I talk in general terms. Stronger everybody = good for town.
Also, what point was that?
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Ah ffs. I logged in as Clockwork Hydra, took too long to write the post and then thoughtlessly logged in as Acro when it said I was logged out :S
+ Show Spoiler [posts I made as Acro] +On January 29 2013 21:06 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 13:59 BinOnFire wrote:
Dude, did you even read my post? I don't mention zombies at all. In fact, I talk in general terms. Stronger everybody = good for town.
Of course you dont want to say that you are a selfish bastard.
I agree that the more cards you get, and the more mana you can play, the better it is for you. Also better for scum.
Town getting stronger is better because scum already start with a big fat 8/8 monster.
HOWEVER what I am saying is that its not objectively good for town.
There are pro's and con's for playing that card and all you seem to be doing is saying how good it is for town. I did the math (approximately, I didn't go into recursion of the game not ending, which I am not doing manually). If everybody gets strong and can 1-shot each other, there is about equal chances of town and scum winning. That is RANDOM shots and as opposed to right now when town has a 0% chance of winning. The more townies alive when we get to the point where people can 1-shot each other the better. Giving everybody a giant kickstart is therefore incredibly town favoured. Now, we can argue about whether your card gives town a sufficient kickstart. We can argue about whether a 10-card draw has any advantages over a 3-5 card draw for people other than me and Poster. But don't keep trying to say that getting everybody up to fucking giant size awesomeness is bad, because vigis' aim is terrible, because even with terrible aim we improve our chances drastically, and I have faith in town's ability to at least get the general direction right (otherwise all lynches would be scum-favoured as well, and they're not). Now... on to your other derp. Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 19:12 BinOnFire wrote:
Explain why its terrible.
That way we dont kill people who are lurking that are town because it really really annoys me when people just lurk the shit out of a game.
I dont necessarily disagree with your plan, I just think mine is better You want us to explain why killing off the person with the lowest postcount is a terribly fucking awfully bad idea? I'm not going to. I want you to switch on your brain before posting random drivel like this. Also, you got called obvious town for suggesting a terrible policy in CT. I am not going to call you town for this and nobody else should either. I think you should have learned a bit of how mafia works in the meantime and you suggesting a terrible plan suggests you either learned nothing, or are trying to wheedle yourself into our good graces by following the recipe set out in CT. Now, this: Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 13:37 BinOnFire wrote:
Well all I gotta do is prove that Im town, which has not been a problem so far.
I would say im leaning scum on CH, not a strong read though is a completely useless throwaway post without some actual reasoning. Also, I want to know what you think of crossfire's entry into the thread. /Acro On January 29 2013 21:07 Acrofales wrote:
@RockHydra: what flavour of storm are you running and should we be worried you can kill us all if you draw a monster hand?
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What you said then:
On January 29 2013 18:02 Oatsmaster wrote:
Well, I dont think that the 'voting' system will work to well cause you cant really enforce people to 'vote'.
Ok what do you guys think about a lynch all lurker's policy, where we hit the person with the lowest post count with all that we got?
What you say now:
On January 29 2013 21:11 Oatsmaster wrote:
Well the point of my policy is to find the lowest poster and DISCUSS whether we hit him or not.
The lowest poster thing is not objective, town can make quality posts and scum can make quantity posts. So we go up the line and find the scummiest person, using Lowest post count as a guideline rather than our 'feel'
These are very clearly two different things. In the former case, you hit the guy with the lowest postcount with "all we got". In the latter we analyse the quality of his posts, find the scummiest lurker and hit him.
The latter is plain old lurker lynching, which I don't like as a policy, but generally agree with doing. The former was some rabid radical crazy incarnation of lurker lynching. You can see why people were confused that you thought this was a good idea.
Anyway, who do you think is currently lurking (and don't say NT)?
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On January 29 2013 13:55 Crossfire99 wrote:
Hi guys. Just so you know I'm a magic noob. I was supposed to hydra with Risen, but he dropped out and took all the magic knowledge with him lol. I'll try to do my best, but I'll probably still be dumb, therefore, feel free to correct me when I make mistakes because I know I will.
As for this whole Mind Glow issue. I only think a few mana total should be used on it because I don't think it is wise to discard so many cards because that's wasteful. I also don't think I would contribute mana to it because it seems like a big goal of using it is so Bin can get that Voyage card, which if I understand correctly won't help me at all. Risen seems to have had a fondness for non basic lands (all of my basic lands are already in play lol).
Oh, also can anyone that played in the first MTG Mafia summarize any hugely important things from it? Basically, I'm trying to think what is better, everyone attacking 1 person or everyone slowly whittling down everyone else, so they'll be easier to kill later. Typing that out makes me think that attacking 1 person is best because it will be as close to a normal lynch as possible, but I'm not sure with all this magic stuff, so I'm asking.
Apologetic, defensive, wishy washy? Hits them all. Hi scum, welcome to the thread! You don't get to play the noobie card, and if you're scum with marv, you need to streamline your tactics so only one of you does it next game.
Coincidentally, mind telling me what you think of Marv?
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On January 29 2013 22:44 RockHydra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 21:07 Acrofales wrote:
@RockHydra: what flavour of storm are you running and should we be worried you can kill us all if you draw a monster hand? Nothing like that. Its a ninja deck. I've also come to the realization that a good chunk of my synergy went out the window, with the second main phase being cut.
Nothing some communication upfront can't get around: can I attack you with my Ornithopter and you won't block it? That will let me do X damage to Joe with this Ninja I plan on playing. Otherwise I will have to do <insert plan B here>. Seems pretty straightforward.
On January 29 2013 21:27 Clockwork Hydra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 13:55 Crossfire99 wrote:
Hi guys. Just so you know I'm a magic noob. I was supposed to hydra with Risen, but he dropped out and took all the magic knowledge with him lol. I'll try to do my best, but I'll probably still be dumb, therefore, feel free to correct me when I make mistakes because I know I will.
As for this whole Mind Glow issue. I only think a few mana total should be used on it because I don't think it is wise to discard so many cards because that's wasteful. I also don't think I would contribute mana to it because it seems like a big goal of using it is so Bin can get that Voyage card, which if I understand correctly won't help me at all. Risen seems to have had a fondness for non basic lands (all of my basic lands are already in play lol).
Oh, also can anyone that played in the first MTG Mafia summarize any hugely important things from it? Basically, I'm trying to think what is better, everyone attacking 1 person or everyone slowly whittling down everyone else, so they'll be easier to kill later. Typing that out makes me think that attacking 1 person is best because it will be as close to a normal lynch as possible, but I'm not sure with all this magic stuff, so I'm asking.
Apologetic, defensive, wishy washy? Hits them all. Hi scum, welcome to the thread! You don't get to play the noobie card, and if you're scum with marv, you need to streamline your tactics so only one of you does it next game. Coincidentally, mind telling me what you think of Marv?
Why is Crossfire forbidden from playing the noobie card? I actually would like you to explain why his apologetic entrance is scummy, because I have no issue with what Cross put down there. He was wishy-washy on policy, not scumhunting so that also speaks to the "noobie" side of the coin.
~Hopeless[/QUOTE]
For the record, Marv is also forbidden from playing the noobie card. I was waiting for Xfire to respond, but the conversation died. I discussed it with Dandel in our tête-a-tête. There are three problems with Xfire's post.
On January 29 2013 13:55 Crossfire99 wrote:
Hi guys. Just so you know I'm a magic noob. I was supposed to hydra with Risen, but he dropped out and took all the magic knowledge with him lol. I'll try to do my best, but I'll probably still be dumb, therefore, feel free to correct me when I make mistakes because I know I will.
This is apologetic and defensive. I know Xfire is not too bad of a mafia player (Dandel played with him in WLIIA and I observed Parallel Universes), so this is an a priori cop-out for doing anything useful this game. There is no town reason for pre-excusing yourself for fucking up.
As for this whole Mind Glow issue. I only think a few mana total should be used on it because I don't think it is wise to discard so many cards because that's wasteful. I also don't think I would contribute mana to it because it seems like a big goal of using it is so Bin can get that Voyage card, which if I understand correctly won't help me at all. Risen seems to have had a fondness for non basic lands (all of my basic lands are already in play lol).
So the next thing he does after saying he knows nothing about magic, is dive into a magic discussion. Regardless of whether he's wrong or right + Show Spoiler +
100% wrong. Pulling up a killer hand is absolutely worth discarding 3/4 of your deck (as long as there's no mill deck). There's a reason Demonic Consultation is restricted in Vintage and that exiles your cards, rather than putting them in the GY.
But the worst part is the last bit:
Oh, also can anyone that played in the first MTG Mafia summarize any hugely important things from it? Basically, I'm trying to think what is better, everyone attacking 1 person or everyone slowly whittling down everyone else, so they'll be easier to kill later. Typing that out makes me think that attacking 1 person is best because it will be as close to a normal lynch as possible, but I'm not sure with all this magic stuff, so I'm asking.
1. Can some over-eager townie please do all the hard work for me, by giving me a cliffnotes version of a long and complicated game? PS. All the time you spend summarizing that game for my lazy ass, you're not scumhunting, so doublescore one for me!
2. More MTG discussion, but this time with extra wishy wash!
For the record: we focus down people. Why make it easier for the mafia creature to kill people? That is one of the mistakes made in the first game, which you would know if you had read it... like everybody has been telling you to.
The entire post is completely useless. It contributes nothing, yet tries to sound as if he is actually contributing, with a "novel" point on the use of Minds Aglow and a pointless question about policy. If this post didn't put you on instant red alert, your scumdar needs fixing.
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Yo hi, dandel here
slight correction on Acro (who otherwise still is a very attractive man): I didn't play in WLIIA. I obs'd it pretty closely.
I have not had the pleasure of actually playing with crossfire myself.
~dan doo
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Oh, and I forgot to mention that the rest of his posts are not much better. I'm Acro, btw.
On January 29 2013 14:20 Crossfire99 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 08:53 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:
Also, if someone even dares to play a 0/X creature with no abilities, then I'll seriously have to consider "policy lynching" you
Why 0/X creatures suck:
If you are scum, then it means that you have 1 blockable and basically indestructible monster. Thus, town have to spend more effort/time to kill you, thus you survive longer
If you are town, then it means that maybe a random scum won't attack you directly that easy....maybe?
If you are town, try to establish your innocence (preferably following the commandments above). If you do, then no townie should attack you AT ALL the whole game. If scum want to attack you, they have to FoS you first. If they do it badly the rest of town will fuck him up, so don't worry, don't be afraid and put a 0/X beast just to "defend" yourself.
If you do however, we also can't know if you are mafia or not, since 0/X creatures are good for mafia as well. So you basically confuse the hell out of town, and maybe even convince town to kill you
If you have a 0/X beast to play, please tell us first, and most importantly tell us why you are playing it, so we don't try to "policy kill" you.
I'll heavily consider killing anybody that doesn't follow this.
I also don't see many downsides to stating to the thread what you are playing before you do (if it's something unblockable, etc), so consider doing that.
For instance:
I'm playing BlooodStained Mire, a land card right now
Has no effect at all for now (I'm not activating it until I consult with Prom) I don't like this post by Gonzaw (?) because he's saying people shouldn't defend themselves. This is like a townie who is getting lynched and not fighting it. You have to fight the lynch to save yourself and help town in the process. In this game, a lynch is like everyone attacking someone, so I think people should play their decks to the best of their ability and when we find scum, we all attack him because I doubt scum can withstand 7v1. I mean if scum can withstand that, how is this game balanced lol?
I might chalk this up to a lack of game knowledge, but this is a pretty serious misrepresentation of what Gonzaw said. He didn't say you can't block. He said that if you're wasting mana on shitty chump blockers instead of doing something useful with it (like contributing to a Minds Aglow, for instance), he considers policy lynching you.
We need to grow town players to a point where we can fight back. Not play shitty chump blockers that serve no purpose beyond delaying your death (and cannot stop the mafia beast).
Not to say that if you have a shitty chump blocker that you played for its useful side effect (mogg fanatic or so), that you can't use it to chump block if someone decides to attack you. The no-blocker policy is unenforceable anyway. In general townies should always favour attacking over blocking, but I can definitely agree with a townie defending against some giant beast with some chump, rather than doing 1 measly damage themselves (unless that 1 damage is enough to kill scum).
/Acro
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On January 30 2013 00:43 Aperture Science wrote:
What I'm advocating (before anyone says "waaah all you ever do is tell us not to play things") is not to play things that could help scum. Lets see what we already know:
Someone can have 10+ Zombies out T1 if you play Mind's Aglow, and can swing with them T2, killing someone.
At least one person is running Fatties. Honestly I'd be happier with Fatties than a dozen Zombies.
@Zeb, Artanis might not have thought that someone would play mind's aglow for 10 T1. I know he's okay with being able to combo out one player by turn 2, which is what cheerio storm does - unless it draws a dozen extra cards, then it combos everyone.
You are running really scared of what scum *might* do, instead of thinking of what they probably WILL do. If there is some deck that will combo out everybody on T2, then it is 3.5x more likely to be on town side. Meaning we have a 7:2 chance of town winning on T2, right off the bat. Maybe we should discuss deck strategies a bit more and who is playing what, in order to decide whether any potential combos will fuck us over, or win us the game. Thereby shifting the probabilities even further in our favour.
Also, you only have to fear zombies, if you're scum. Are you scum, iGrok? Your extremely cautious play indicates to me that you are. A townie being afraid of all the potential ways he can die would try to figure out whether they can and will actually happen, rather than fear monger with it.
Also, as I said above, townies have statistics on their side and thus less reason to be scared.
/Acro
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No real objection to playing them I guess, but why do you have phyrexian walkers in a ninja deck?
~dandel
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On January 30 2013 02:18 (DontFear)ThePoster wrote:
Clockwork, I suggest not getting into Aperture's back that much. If he is town, then I'm pretty sure a repeat of last game will happen (i.e everybody, including scum just tunneling him until he dies in D3/D4 and flips town)
If you don't mercilessly attack him, he won't have any excuse if he fails to scumhunt.
I still have my eyes on him though.
/G
What a weird post
I havn't played with either of his heads yet, so I can't exactly be sure I guess, but I can't imagine somebody having such a thin skin that he's going to abandon his win-con just because a couple guys mentioned that he might, possibly, be scum.
Is that normal for them?
If so, why are they still playing Mafia?
enlighten me.
~dandel
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We can't get 10 zombies.
...
not THIS turn at least. hoho.
~dandel
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On January 30 2013 03:17 Nova_Terra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 02:50 BinOnFire wrote:You must have missed my earlier post on the extended plan involving Minds Aglow. I'll dig it up for you: On January 29 2013 09:45 BinOnFire wrote:
To further expand on plan 1)
Cast Minds Aglow T1, hope to hit Collective Voyage (77% if we do all draw ~10 cards), Collective Voyage T2, everyone has ~20 lands in play for T3. Everyone drawing cards might not be pro-town, I agree, but everyone having upwards of 20 land by turn 3 is most assuredly good for us: even if the scum players can kill two of us immediately, it's still a 5v2, with a pretty clear indicator of alignment. Durr. Completely misread Collective Voyage. Heres the thing. I have a very low amount of basic lands, and from what i can tell, CH has none. what would this mean? Tons of zombies. Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that we would know who the scum are even if we did end up with 7 players left, and I would think that we may be in a similar situation (of not knowing who the scum are) then. I would agree with using Collective Voyage on a smaller scale, but 20 lands each? I think we're begging for trouble. The strength of town is their numbers and collective majority, all we would end up doing is making it easier for people who make one slightly scummy mistake to get killed. We have good minds here, lets figure it out.
I would like an explaination on this specific train of thought, and how you were able to come to this conclusion.
~dandel
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EPT
