EPTWhy do I suddenly feeel nervous?
Newbie Mini Mafia XXXII
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AxleGreaser
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Why do I suddenly feeel nervous? | ||
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AxleGreaser
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I say: Your coaches will be lonely and  if you don't.Truer words have never been spoken. also for me in particular Nothing will get me dead faster than thinking I know more than I do. Dunning Kruger_effect {I swear by all i hold dear I will talk to my coach frequently.} (you were warned coach.) | ||
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AxleGreaser
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lesson learned: I gotta trust my ideas on why bad stuff really happened. lesson observed: survivor guilt after mislynch is going to mess with my head. ooo a Sand box: + Show Spoiler + Foo bar Blue colored text I am so gunna use this for all my reads: My List of reads
I think I had betetr go read exactly what not to do with interface must post more of this Blue colored text | ||
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AxleGreaser
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if there is something wrong with what i used so far. which please? yes if I don't implement the specifications in the guides I should be spanked. sorry if that last post was alarming. Must use ##lolcat before all jokes. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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But first must learn where the edges are by reading da rules. Thus effectively: AFK. edit oops. | ||
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On December 03 2012 11:49 Oatsmaster wrote: Step 1: Tunnel the vet enough player off their tenth post Step 2: Lynch All Lurkers Step 3: Claim Blue Step 4: ???? Step 5: WIN I counted 9 + ninja'd edit up to that point. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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I can predict the future There will be an epic Drama To be or not to be that will be the question. | ||
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end lolCat | ||
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I will try my best not to make you cry. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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lolcat <= a C&C warning // mafia {on cue}{Enters stage right}{runs into the spotlight} {leaps in the air and pirouettes} {lands delicately on one foot, falls flat on face} {rolls around on floor like a beached whale} {struggles in an ungainly manner to feet} {spins around , fingers spread wide} “#*#Fos everyone in the Room, yer all scum!” {pauses, gears turn, looks carefully at fingers, notices a spare one, looks skyward} “#*#Fos the host too, yer all scum, until evidence of intention proves otherwise!” Thinks<I like Lego House and I like chocolate.> <so obviously simple logic proves a chocolate Lego house must be double yummy!> “#*#unFos host yer now my top read from beginning to the very end!.” Thinks so if what you say is true... in this game Roles... then {Rechecks PM.} “#*#unFos me I know know 100% what I am. Now you will too.” A valid Association case first post day 1 !rulez. end Lolcat popcorn mode off. I believe yamato and Oats were asked a question? I have not yet heard an actual answer | ||
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AxleGreaser
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Which I found instructive. I have not played any other mafia anywhere. Although last night i had dream and I think I once did talk about mafia 20 years ago but I dont really remember. | ||
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> Also, Axle, opinion on lurker lynching over a moderate scumread - GO. The answer is in the story above. Everybody is intially suspicious until shown otherwise by evidence of intention. If i was hunting scum and i am I could answer promptly. cont in next post | ||
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AxleGreaser
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yes i was asked many questions some of them repeats. Some of them no longer important if someone is finding it hard to say how they feel on the lurker lynch question. Thats why I sat there hanging in the silence waiting to post. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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On December 04 2012 11:04 Oatsmaster wrote: I am terribly sorry for my play last game. You may be sorry, survivor guilt, is a problem. You do however seem to setting up an I am just bad claim? | ||
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On December 04 2012 11:09 jidolboy wrote: I'm not too sure but talking about random things is a good way to tart guess. I mean there is nothing else to talk about because nothing major had happened yet The social parts of the discussion break the ice and get things going. The on topic parts, such as what is our plan and objective let you see if people are deflecting away from anything. | ||
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Scum often tend to distance themselves from one another by one arriving early and the other late. By sitting outside a discussion watching and jumping in and deflecting the heat if their partner is under pressure, They do that by raising some issue that is clearly less important. Than letting someone else apply pressure. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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On December 04 2012 11:22 yamato77 wrote: Not to badger you, but do you have thoughts on lurker lynching? Or any ideas about day 1 town plans? The bit you quoted does not seem entirely related to the question asked which I find strange. Every one starts off equally scummy. As inconsistencies and evidence mounts for a likely lynch candidate it get more and more scummy. Lurking longer and longer does too. Often if town plays town well enough pressure mounts and enough evidence mounts to lynch someone who has posted lot of inconsistent information. Something i dont know is, if the better players can just push a weaker player into going all mixed up. This is where town comes in, I must trust the players who are better than me to watch one another, They will catch when the other ones are just cracking the weakest link, no matter what alignment they are. Indeed there are so many questions, int hat regard that I don't actually see the best way forward for me. There appear to be some rather a large gaps in skill level. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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On December 04 2012 11:42 Oatsmaster wrote: I really dont understand what you are saying axle I dont know how you can change it but maybe reread the post before you post and see if it makes sense. Ta. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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You made good reads from last NMM game, any reason you're announcing yourself as a lesser skilled player?[/QUOTE] I cant think of good reason no. | ||
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On December 04 2012 11:22 yamato77 wrote: Not to badger you, but do you have thoughts on lurker lynching? Or any ideas about day 1 town plans? your question has two parts. What were you trying to find out when you asked this question. What did you want to achieve. Or any ideas about day 1 town plans? | ||
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AxleGreaser
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AxleGreaser
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>Axle, I think what I said to you in last NMM QT is starting to make sense now. I am not sure which bit cos I said a few things But I don't remember what most of them were anymore, If I had been aware, that this game would not have variable numbers of roles This one always has two of something, making the analysis a LYLO more defined if I had been aware of that I would have had no need to say anything about oats style as it would have had solution when claim meant clear certainty to everyone. I had assumed the next game would be the same setup... and yeah i might have made someone cry if I got back there to D2. I didn't want that kind of storm in a newb game. So I did it somewhere the adults could smack us. I had read he was significantly better than he showed right from the start. I had read that so Ok on D2 he will be able to say what he saw D1 When he didnt, have anything I was like WTF man. don't want to look back, at that game Ok. Its not helping / stop playing scum on me / <rage = off> In the last NMM QT, I was not in it until after the aqua lynch. Before that I was watching, and working stuff out. But as it happened over days not Hours. Bit of a difference. I think my biggest lesson learned is trying to go fast with the conversation is bad plan. My contribution to a good team which is what there was here is not to ask the questions but listen to the answers. > Shit's a lot more real in game. I was real close to in game last time. Actually shit is pretty real not if you sit in obs but watch it real time. > However, you DID make good reads last game (without even reading the QT until later, right?) > so keep that in mind and just focus on that. Thanks for that I didn't do real bad in what I >>>read<<< here, just crap at what I wrote. I probably also had shit storm guilt as I felt what was going down here was on my head. I hope you enjoyed getting incinerated. > This will help town because: > 1. If you're town, your reads are good or Even at speed they were still pretty good, it is the writing that isn't. > 2. If you're scum, town gets to read your original thoughts rather than you just playing the newbie card and sheeping. original thoughts <<< Those I am rarely short of. So someone well tell me what i ought do next yeah? | ||
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AxleGreaser
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>Axle, I think what I said to you in last NMM QT is starting to make sense now. I am not sure which bit cos I said a few things But I don't remember what most of them were anymore, If I had been aware, that this game would not have variable numbers of roles This one always has two of something, making the analysis a LYLO more defined if I had been aware of that I would have had no need to say anything about oats style as it would have had solution when claim meant clear certainty to everyone. I had assumed the next game would be the same setup... and yeah i might have made someone cry if I got back there to D2. I didn't want that kind of storm in a newb game. So I did it somewhere the adults could smack us. I had read he was significantly better than he showed right from the start. I had read that so Ok on D2 he will be able to say what he saw D1 When he didnt, have anything I was like WTF man. don't want to look back, at that game Ok. Its not helping / stop playing scum on me / <rage = off> In the last NMM QT, I was not in it until after the aqua lynch. Before that I was watching, and working stuff out. But as it happened over days not Hours. Bit of a difference. I think my biggest lesson learned is trying to go fast with the conversation is bad plan. My contribution to a good team which is what there was here is not to ask the questions but listen to the answers. > Shit's a lot more real in game. I was real close to in game last time. Actually shit is pretty real not if you sit in obs but watch it real time. > However, you DID make good reads last game (without even reading the QT until later, right?) > so keep that in mind and just focus on that. Thanks for that I didn't do real bad in what I >>>read<<< here, just crap at what I wrote. I probably also had shit storm guilt as I felt what was going down here was on my head. I hope you enjoyed getting incinerated. > This will help town because: > 1. If you're town, your reads are good or Even at speed they were still pretty good, it is the writing that isn't. > 2. If you're scum, town gets to read your original thoughts rather than you just playing the newbie card and sheeping. original thoughts <<< Those I am rarely short of. So someone well tell me what i ought do next yeah? | ||
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AxleGreaser
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tired. What I am going to need to do is play in a sand box somewhere with this editor | ||
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On December 04 2012 13:37 Oatsmaster wrote: What do you think about yamato voting you? I was already convinced that, if everyone else turned up really late in the day and said sorry will be here tomorrow, He still would have been lynched. I saw no argument or question that I even had to reply to. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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On December 04 2012 13:58 Oatsmaster wrote: WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Please explain. So you are gonna ignore yamato's vote? Do you have a town/scum read on yamato? If this is not answering your question, would you please distinguish between you wanting to know about me and you wanting them to know what I saw. or both? I have clearly transgressed a serious line. I dont know where it is. I am town. Yes I will ignore the vote. What I would not have ignored is valid argument with substance. It did not need vote just an argument. For instance, towards the goal of town winning, there was no important need to say I was less skilled than other people they can see that. If they cant see that [b]for themselves[\b], I am dead anyway, me saying it and them not believing it just makes me more so, So I am unconcerned as there is not positive step i can make, go team. I had very strong scum read on Yammoto it started when he didnt answer for a long long time at 10:13 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17124632 at 10:29 I decide to add more pressure, As I expect another newb game to be more like the last one and I was aware there would be tension, that needed relieving, I had spent time making a pleasant I thought post. I probably should have deleted that content and posted the The question at the bottom In fact i definitely should have as it added opportunities to distract. At this minute I am a bit second guessing myself, as i don't know what I look like from the outside when pressed in this thread. I suspect I still look, just startled town. When I settle down completely will be able to see that dispationately and say. ============== The reason that is an issue is I don't belong in newb and I don't belong in any other game so I am Perhaps I ought consider a slower forum with N day cylces. In terms of where i fit. I am fairly sure I am square peg. My estimation is I don't belong in another newb game. Id have to practice a fair bit making reads on other games and typing them out sensibly before I could make good contributions to other games. Even then if that what games go like then, Id have to work out what my role would be. So I am pretty | ||
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AxleGreaser
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On December 04 2012 14:52 Oatsmaster wrote: What. Axle stop having a pity party and just play to the best of your ability. Read the thread, form opinions, ask + Show Spoiler + questions, Explain your scumread on yamato more. I think what happened previously was an error on my part. To gain value from it anyway. As a person with no meta(game history) however it shows why from now on I will post deliberately and carefully. Noise and confusion like that will only ever get me * lynched if I am scum. * mislynched if am town. I have considered your suggestions and and of them I have chosen to do these things. 'No more Pity' 'play to the best of your ability.' ------- Now doing just that. OatsMaster A question for you? Is it a scum tell when one player tries to tell another player how to play? When do scum do that and why? When do town do that and why? Remembering that Lynch all Liars is a thing that some people believe in. What is your truthful answer to those two? | ||
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AxleGreaser
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On December 04 2012 11:15 yamato77 wrote: Intention. Scum play will always have the intent of not looking suspicious, or of blending in. New town play might look like obvious scum play but it could definitely be a case of too obvious to be scum. ------ observation: The English above is very explicit in what it is saying. The use of 'Intention.' as a one word sentence indicates the primary significance of it as an absolute imperative. The analysis considers how one behavior, can be both a scum or a town play. This is incongruous with my previous observations of meta in newbie games. As that is so limited meh... I throw that away as more likely to mislead than help. Hypothesis: This is not like the newbie games I have read. Even more tellingly it asks for opinion about a topic at a level. 'bad(newbie) town' This betrays a knowledge in the questioner, and an expectation of knowledge in the person asked, that there are other levels of play that they know both about and thus shared knowledge. I could wrongly conclude shared knowledge is a scum tell, but I don't. Most players here except me know one another. ----- Minimum conclusion: This is fair fight. I can safely without fear play to the best of my ability and do no harm. "First do no harm:" is powerful and honorable creed. <but isnt it aganst the rules> It is against the rules not to play to win.. A question that arises for me is win what? You can win the match of mafia, go team, but if it broke or hurt the game, then you would truely have lost. Near as I can tell the rules at the top each mafia game, are written by people who know the value of every word and degree of emphasis. Thus I hope they agree with my interpretation of the rules. This is fair fight. I can play to the best of my ability. As the value of what I know depends on the skill with which I observe I will state usually from memory what I saw before. The knowledge i have: In my obs of previous newbie games, I observed that thinking did not normally appear to me to go that deep. I observed that SDM was the most valuable town asset. As he was the most valuable town asset the obvious thing to do was for doc to protect him. Thus scum would, probably, in newbie game kill someone else. I thought that would be Aqua or Jacob. There was no double double crosses anywhere. The no lynch, made me suspicious of SDM. While he had played to me as strong town. If he was a very strong scum, he might have reached the same conclusion as I did hope the doc would protect him and then scum would not nk at all and wind up with one of their own as confirmed town. I had to throw that idea out, as I lack the actual experience to guess if in a newbie game that would be plausible. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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The last post drew a conclusion from a ridiculous small amount of data. That is not all the data it is based on just all that was quoted. A lesson I learned along time ago when dealing with potential liars is never show all your cards to them. The majority of people here are town. I, state that, I think my optimal play is to show a large fraction of what I know. It is a dangerous risky play for town to tell other players what to do. If you think I am doing it wrong you could try to tell me in game what I ought do. I am prepared to be given wrong advice from scum if that then gets them lynched.  (I wonder how many deep that was.....) (I am probably going to stop mentioning double double crosses and looking tat things from both sides as if you have not noticed I know that by now you are not going to.) Finally, hence Importantly I do not reach final conclusions no matter what the English implies. | ||
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As mentioned getting other people to do things is a scum tell, or helping a wounded (7/9)townie get back up of the floor Does this meet with your approval so far? Why or Why Not? | ||
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On December 04 2012 21:51 Oatsmaster wrote: I still cant understand what you are talking about ...deletia... However, I dont understand this. As mentioned getting other people to do things is a scum tell, or helping a wounded (7/9)townie get back up of the floor In that case I would to find out what you do understand. I want you to pretend that you are scum for second. If you were playing scum this game.. Why would you be "getting other people to do things is?" | ||
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AxleGreaser
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Why would you be "getting other people to do things?" | ||
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i just want to check are you there and are you about to go anywhere? | ||
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On December 04 2012 22:53 Oatsmaster wrote: I would probably tell you to l2play or something? Saying "learn to play" How does doing that create this Scum want to cause confusion and make sure the town cant function as well. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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Wouldn't doing that be sure scum tell? or is there a reason town could want to do that same thing? | ||
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AxleGreaser
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I am interested in your understanding of the reason why Town does things and why scum does the same or different things. | ||
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Lets change to more pleasant subject. | ||
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now I want you to pretend that you are town for second. If you were playing town this game.. Why would you be "getting other people to do things?" | ||
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AxleGreaser
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you are town for second. As you are playing as town this game.. Why would you be "getting other people to do things?" | ||
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I had forgottten you were here as it was just us two for a while. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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double sorry you popped into the thread so suddenly I mistook that for a post by oats. mea culpa. Chill guys. As I said survivor guilt will really mess things up. it is cool, town won yay. A real town player like aqua is happy to take one for the team. its all good. | ||
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On December 04 2012 23:51 AxleGreaser wrote: Ok as you find it objectionable that I as town don't know you are a town you are town for second. As you are playing as town this game.. Why would you be "getting other people to do things?" Your answer says what you are doing. I was asking why you were getting other people to do things | ||
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AxleGreaser
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On December 05 2012 00:05 Oatsmaster wrote: What do you mean by getting other people to do things? Like asking them to make me coffee and get my breakfast? Or something different I was asking why you were getting other people to do things in this game of mafia XXXII | ||
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On December 04 2012 22:05 Oatsmaster wrote: I agree with CC in the last game, meta over 2-3 games is not really identifiable though :/ I think we should scumhunt using more normal scumhunting methods. I do understand that is not the word you. but it does tend to suggest how other people should scumhunt. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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yes but how do you know yamato77 is town? how do you know he is on your team. There is a 6/8 chance you are a town but I am currently checking out what you do. | ||
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What if he is scum? Are you not concerned he might be scum? Lastly is he a high town read from you? or is hea quite scummy read from you? GO | ||
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ooops typo Ok that makes a little sense, | ||
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On December 05 2012 00:30 Oatsmaster wrote: No, I wasnt providing advice on how he could look more town, I was giving a suggestion on more effective/accurate ways to win the game as town. If he is scum, it doesnt matter. I am concerned that he is scum. HOWEVER, it doesnt really affect much BECAUSE if you know that someone is scum, you just ignore them. Currently I have a slight town read on yamato, however he seems to be acting differently as opposed to last game. Probably because he wants to improve like me, but you never know. commenting on bits of that. "however he seems to be acting differently as opposed to last game." didnt you say you thought we should hunt for scum that way? "If he is scum, it doesnt matter." it matters to me. The way I catch scum is when they do things i think they should not. You were getting yamato to behave in way that you think is more pro town by hunting for scum in a more 'normal way' How am I meant to find him if you give advice on how to act like the rest of us? | ||
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AxleGreaser
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"however he seems to be acting differently as opposed to last game." didnt you say you thought we should not hunt for scum by looking at meta and use more normal means. Why are you now looking at meta? | ||
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BTW. Thank Yam for suggesting what I should do. | ||
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On December 05 2012 00:30 Oatsmaster wrote: No, I wasnt providing advice on how he could look more town, I was giving a suggestion on more effective/accurate ways to win the game as town. If he is scum, it doesnt matter. I am concerned that he is scum. HOWEVER, it doesnt really affect much BECAUSE if you know that someone is scum, you just ignore them. Currently I have a slight town read on yamato, however he seems to be acting differently as opposed to last game. Probably because he wants to improve like me, but you never know. commenting on bits of that. "however he seems to be acting differently as opposed to last game." didnt you say you thought we should hunt for scum that way? "If he is scum, it doesnt matter." it matters to me. The way I catch scum is when they do things i think they should not. You were getting yamato to behave in way that you think is more pro town by hunting for scum in a more 'normal way' How am I meant to find out that yamato is scum if you give him advice on how to act like the rest of us?[/QUOTE] | ||
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Ok I am off to bed | ||
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On December 05 2012 07:25 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Why has the discussion stagnated so? @Everyone What are your opinions of Kick/Yamato/Oats, those in the spotlight? What do you guys see about others as well? Just anything, lol. Some scummer reads etc. Interested in particularly hearing from Sylencia. I had an idea last night before I went to bed. But as I was still not quite awake enough I slept on it to see if today it felt wrong. It still reads feels the same as it did last night. those in the spotlight? getting the game they deserve. Interested in particularly hearing from Sylencia. I have not checked but it might be hard to do that. So anyway i will poke around the thread, for a while I was going to suggest the auspicious time of 12:00 here in oz but I want until 1.00 here in oz which 1:45 from this post. It would be pleasant if at that time we had some kind of quorum. Either that or if no one is here at that time I will speak to thin air just the same. | ||
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On December 04 2012 10:26 Arnarnion wrote: Alright 1) I haven't played a game yet, but I did obs XXXII 2) I am of the opinion that lynches should be saved for top scum reads and that removing inactive players might not be as productive for town as it is for scum, since were just doing their work for them. 3)(Oats)- Don't give me none of that pie or cheesecake, the only true dessert is ice cream. (CC)- Green. I think saying that again, would be past superfluous. | ||
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On December 02 2012 09:48 Arnarnion wrote: /in hypothesis google Arnarnion yep thought so. On December 02 2012 11:36 AxleGreaser wrote: /in Why do I suddenly feeel nervous? because apparently I had reason to be. I was sticking my had in the mouth of friendly dragon. and wondering if it would bite it off. I was sad though because aqua really did ant to come back here when he has the time.and if I made bad karma Thats why I nearly walked away without ever posting here once. Oh well its done now. | ||
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On December 04 2012 01:14 marvellosity wrote: except it says filters and there are no filters :< I don't know what or who said filters when? So if that is a sad face, perhaps asking a question would make it? :> ............... No perhaps I misunderstood there must be lies. So I am treating this as no question to answer as I have multiple interpretations. | ||
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On December 05 2012 10:09 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Axle, I have no friggen clue what the hell you're trying to say, ever. Seems like half of the stuff in your posts are randomly red for no reason. I think those bits are important. For instance "1) I haven't played a game yet, but I did obs XXXII" XXXII is this game. Playing and obsing it is bit ? Do note however, I am not complaining about anything at all. So far this game has been great. If I am correct. It is game setup that I dreamed of making for you guys one day. Apparently you guys have thought of most things first. So far this game has been great. As i think I have solved for the win condition. but to do that I would need to present my case, which I will do in about half an hour. So far I find no evidence incompatible with my case. | ||
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AxleGreaser
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Save your energy. The only evidence I will consider is the evidence I found before I indicated, I had any idea what the solution was. | ||
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On December 05 2012 09:17 AxleGreaser wrote: I had an idea last night before I went to bed. But as I was still not quite awake enough I slept on it to see if today it felt wrong. It still reads feels the same as it did last night. those in the spotlight? getting the game they deserve. Interested in particularly hearing from Sylencia. I have not checked but it might be hard to do that. So anyway i will poke around the thread, for a while I was going to suggest the auspicious time of 12:00 here in oz but I want until 1.00 here in oz which 1:45 from this post. It would be pleasant if at that time we had some kind of quorum. Either that or if no one is here at that time I will speak to thin air just the same. real soon now i will present a case that I believe solves the game it solves the game in the sense that it solves it for my win condition. In my win condition everybody who is on my team wins. btw that would be you, as in anyone and everyone who read this post. ----- I have strong technical hunch that some people cant as sometimes when I open multiple windows here the game looks different. I have not tried to verify that so I could be wrong. If thats wrong or you don't understand just ignore it. | ||
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the evidence considered for the case will only be from before that post (or there abouts) | ||
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On December 05 2012 10:57 Rad wrote: @jidolboy Ahh, gotcha. Would you mind sharing your scum read? Both you and Sylencia have now mentioned that you have a scum read of some sort, and both of you seem to feel the need to hide it. Any reason you're holding back? That would be the case. I am sorry I will not be answering more questions that are put after that post either. What I need to do is finish reading the thread from before that post. | ||
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On December 04 2012 21:43 AxleGreaser wrote: This post contains content on its own so that does not get lost in the last one. The last post drew a conclusion from a ridiculous small amount of data. That is not all the data it is based on just all that was quoted. A lesson I learned along time ago when dealing with potential liars is never show all your cards to them. The majority of people here are town. I, state that, I think my optimal play is to show a large fraction of what I know. [........] Finally, hence Importantly I do not reach final conclusions no matter what the English implies. | ||
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Clearly I did not write it in short amount of time. Clearly it formed part of a longer term plan. ba bow (ish) (not true) {you guys have term for this is it WIFOM ??} Being clever I could prepare many of these in advance and then at the last minute select from a range. So it was (provably?) only my plan for one game. But I did post it at the start and make large commitment to the plan for this game. The time spent making it is also a commitment to the plan. I can explain the evolutionary biology of kin selection and how it evolves altruism out of a survival of the fittest algorithm if you like, that would take a while... most would drift off to sleep. See Matt Ridley or "readings in socio biology" (and less so?)"selfish gene" I can no longer pretend I am silly.m That damn thing is so full of easter eggs that range from C&C << A newnet admin thing // c++ programming memory of specific wording from the obs or somewhere about the dark night. awareness of the spotlight. awareness of the timing of an entrance as it on cue. The visuals, making fun of oneself, showing a checking of ego at the door. and just in case you dont notice that falls on face (a ref to my real entry here?) beached whale, yet more laughing at self. Then FOS everyone. Answering the question I have not yet but will be asked about scum reads In the beginning every one else who is playing, and by my count, there are 9 players(inc me) (assuming they are all individual distinct humans) there is the coach, he is probably playing too and finally there is the host, (but that is the conclusion) but do note I suspect the host of the game until there was evidence. and a lego chocolate cake is evidence of intention. not proof just evidence So he became my top read. If he is town, and not lying to me, then I am also town. (It was I previously supposed possible I was mafia and the PM had lied.... ) QUOTE]On December 04 2012 10:29 AxleGreaser wrote: pocorn mode on lolcat <= a C&C warning // mafia {on cue}{Enters stage right}{runs into the spotlight} {leaps in the air and pirouettes} {lands delicately on one foot, falls flat on face} {rolls around on floor like a beached whale} {struggles in an ungainly manner to feet} {spins around , fingers spread wide} “#*#Fos everyone in the Room, yer all scum!” {pauses, gears turn, looks carefully at fingers, notices a spare one, looks skyward} “#*#Fos the host too, yer all scum, until evidence of intention proves otherwise!” Thinks<I like Lego House and I like chocolate.> <so obviously simple logic proves a chocolate Lego house must be double yummy!> “#*#unFos host yer now my top read from beginning to the very end!.” Thinks so if what you say is true... in this game Roles... then {Rechecks PM.} “#*#unFos me I know know 100% what I am. Now you will too.” A valid Association case first post day 1 !rulez. end Lolcat popcorn mode off. | ||
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I should not have to as I am fairly sure you know. but if you do that you are making assurances about where that data goes. I have used my skills and reads on people enough to form the conclusion that everything I found suspicious about anyone being scum, was misdirection. The players on this forum who are good had serious precision in their language. I am now going to turn to consider the game setup posts. Why those? I think it time to re-evaluate, my position on the host. His good intentions were evidenced by A nice chocolate, cake reminiscent of the one my xxxxxx posted about during newbie mafia XXXI which he said was truely delicious. (actually i have never verified, he xxxxxx linked to prinzengenten torte he just told me he did, I never clicked on that if I recall correctly. ) ========== This bit is flat out paranoia. (hence optional) (Ahhh thats how the bloody lights may have gone on) There exist people that know that cake in the RL is tied to my family. either that or I am wrong, but it would explain lots of stuff. ========== How the host of game acts and plans things is much more greatly constrained that any of the players in it. You player guys can do any shit you want, then change your mind and say it was the plan to fool/enrage/frustrate X. The option are kind of large, and as claimed I have not played mafia. {I keep getting worried every time I say that. As I have played shitload of things in my life. I have certainly not played mafia in at least 10...20...? years). So if someone is sitting on some claim I have drop it on the table, pls? } Indeed all that recent faff I regard as evidence you are worried I getting close to rumbling the plan ========== This bit is flat out paranoia. (hence optional) Although as mentioned I do think i discussed it very long time ago. I though it was in the 90's I have since realised it may have been as far back as the late 70's I think the person I discussed it with may have had a friend named cheetah. (no that is not a pun on cheater, it was just the guys name) ========== The host of game however is bound by all sorts of mathematics to make a game mechanic that works. It is bit tricky as they don't answer many questions in game, and usually only briefly. and I think I am probably just better of reading all the rule really carefully and commenting on those. So if this, post is visible outside, you may really want to say no dont do that before I get back with my cup of coffee. | ||
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I never really said why hosts are constrained. Hosts want players to play in their game setups. The setups take time and effort and rewarded by the people who play them having fun. Hosts really ought be townies. Host that make game setup as for the purpose of annoying people would I suspect rapidly evolve out of existence. But I could be wrong. Do notice that I am using the word townie on the host to refer to their RL personality and moral framework. The other weird thing i have noticed about the game in general is the performance art aspect of it. Hence the obs? Anyway the host being thus constrained to make game fair also understands the concept of a solvable puzzle. here is my favorite example 31 41 5? What the next digit? Ok now what the second most obvious answer? The next digit can be a 1 or a 9 and still fit the pattern. There were insufficient cross checks. Actually there are always insufficient cross checks, but the fair puzzles have one neater small round solution. Hence probably why there are literally clues everywhere. IF you open the spoiler it may spoil where I am going but I hope you already know. + Show Spoiler + I found ponies hip hop meat and even various, mine craft, and most importantly lots of end game boss fight scenarios. That is why i was so frickin tired, I had read the internet recently. Thus I am fairly sure I know how it is meant to end. I have lost where, but somewhere else I read about being able to exit by one of two doors? Anyway, if this a game and I am meant to have fun in because the host wants me to come back, then there had better be a solution where I can win. So as player I like the pro town approach, lynch all liars, lynch lurkers end of the spectrum. I can now having played a bit see that this might too actually break the game but I cant be sure of that. It is a concern I have.AT one point the game signups said there were 13 spots. For 9 players. It has been fixed. The game specific rules said "There are (no) clues." I find that peculiar as there are actually clues everywhere. I imagine that is why the (no) is in some sense highlighted. as are the "There are no [red]3rd Party Planer Dragons{/red] in this game. Probably." Do note that as they only probably are not in this game it is also possible that they are. I have rather strong suspicion that there are indeed 3rd party planar dragons in this game I even thought that before I did /in I considered it possible there would be dragons in this XXXII game before I made my very very first post. What I didn't want to do was spend another week screaming no at the screen, but this time having to interact as well without making it worse. That would have been bad karma. One option was to simply walk away but I really really wanted to play. Hence I bet the farm on stamping my foot loudly and attracting attention. The setup is a "Possible Setup" It certainly does appear to be a setup. I wonder if i am supposed to rage or rage quit. Well if this is place where that is desirable I would not want to be here anyway. I can imagine a lot of souls would exit this setup that way. {oopsies note: I am typing and reading this carefully but occasionally I do fsk up and leave out a 'not' when I type and proof read. Sorry That red one was one I nearly missed.} For simplicities sake what possible setups exist if there are only townies and goons in the game. In that case there are 2^9 possible setups. Of those which is the one I deserve. 9 Townies. In a 9 townie game we all keep trying to play more and more and more pro town and leave the not there goons looking guilty. So far in this game I only get town reads on everyone. I also only get strong player reads on everyone, although some people at some time read lower. As it is possible in my view there are only townies in this game. And as a townie I don't want to mislynch a townie what I want to do is vote nolynch but I dont see that as being in the rules or not. If I am correct we wont lynch anyone and the mafia wont night kill anyone either So the townest thing I can will be to vote no lynch. | ||
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On December 05 2012 13:39 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: "I had read the internet recently." I'm sorry that was so funny. Am I drunk? No but the amount places i went and read things follwing clues and kept winding up reading the same things in at least an allegorical sense was simply amazing. SOOOOOOOOO MUCCCCCCCH WORK | ||
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On December 05 2012 13:41 Kickstart wrote: Axle a no lynch has no effect on night actions, scum can still target someone for a NK. And can you please stop whatever charade you are on about talking about the host and the game setup and all this other nonsense and talk about the game. What gives? The scum if they are present in the game certainly can target townies. But only if the ere any scum in this game. | ||
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On December 05 2012 13:42 Oatsmaster wrote: Fuck this shit is funny axle. Thanks for making me laugh out loud in class, now everyone is looking at me :/ I am trying to have fun. I think it would be funniest if we were playing in game at the moment that had no scum in it at all. And as my read on everyone is town. That is the most likely possible setup. I have not really thought it through, but i am pretty me starting a wagon on no lynch is just about the strongest possible proof that i am town and that is my best read of where we are at. | ||
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Up until then My case is that if you are town and like me you believe you have reads that everyone else in this game is town then you too should vote no lynch. | ||
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I dont see that option in the rules | ||
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unfos host | ||
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Axlegreaser <3 <3 <3 Host Axlegreaser think dragons are imba Axlegreaser think Axlegreaser is kimba BTW I still believe there is one more magic button thing to do before it rains..... Does any player wish to say anything before I do that? | ||
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Voting no lynch today does have real ramifications for how I act in 'town' The problem was I didn't know how much free for all there was. Hence any problem that was going happen I could not let it happen in game. Also this particular setup (and i dont mean the no scum one proposed) but with the fixed number of special roles also was enough, if I had seen it first, even another serial killer would not have mattered. (no offense) Anyway as there are only N planar dragons this will take as long as it takes to rid town of filth. | ||
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This puzzle kind of reminds me of the doctor who puzzle where there are two guards at two doors. 1 guard always lies 1 guard always tell the truth. 1 door leads to eternal damnation the other 1 to everlasting life. In the original it is what question do you ask a gaurd? and then you do the opposite. What about if the problem is stated that you must ask for advice then carry it out? What one question do you ask? and then take the door you are told to? popcorn mode engaged | ||
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I quized you fairly hard on some things and that was because I was unsure at what level you can think the game through. I made some progress on that. Did I distract you from asking these questions of me? You appear to have dropped them? Are they now unimportant? On December 04 2012 21:26 Oatsmaster wrote: Why are you thinking about the game that is already over? Why do you talk like this?? Just casually say stuff, if it doesn't sound natural please don't post it :D Q1/ Q2/ As I have no meta, it is easy to mistake what I do. In the same way I wanted to understand how you think about the game, so I can tell if you do something anti town while knowing it is anti town. Thus I am thinking in this game a good pro town thing for me to do voluntarily do is to state my analysis of a previous case where the outcome is known, but my reasoning suggested a different course of action to how the game went down. Q3/ "Just casually say stuff, if it doesnt sound natural please dont post it :D" I notice the :D at the end, but just casually saying stuff, makes noise. Isn't noise good for scum? So was there any other part of your questioning you wished to pursue? I expect to have more question regarding what we discussed yesterday as a number of interesting things happened during that discussion. | ||
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@OATSMASTER | ||
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I have not noticed, who voted for me when. I will check if I get time. I feel pressured by questions about my real intentions not my current apparent popularity. People voting for me because I posted some big things which you/they either read or ignore but thus I did not engage with, thus not distract other peoples scum hunting, does seem odd. I can see some people didn't like it. I would vote for scum if and when I find them, otherwise I will do as I have done. and ##VOTE NoLynch Doing that is a very bold move for scum to make. It is even I believe a bold move for town to make. I am glad you were trying to help. Do you now see why I did what I did? Did my explanations satisfy you? You also appear to have missed this question. Q3/ "Just casually say stuff, if it doesnt sound natural please dont post it :D" I notice the :D at the end, but just casually saying stuff, makes noise. Isn't noise good for scum? | ||
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On December 05 2012 18:57 AxleGreaser wrote: @OATSMASTER You also appear to have missed this question. Q3/ "Just casually say stuff, if it doesnt sound natural please dont post it :D" I notice the :D at the end, but just casually saying stuff, makes noise. Isn't noise good for scum? | ||
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On December 05 2012 19:35 Oatsmaster wrote: Yes noise is good for scum, Ta for answering, did you miss me asking the question the first time? I meant dont post things that sound unnatural like if you were reading the words out it will sound odd. Casually like if you were with a group of friends, I am possibly not with a group of friends, which is why I am being analytical. not like a school or work presentation. I hope that clarifies things It does, and i am sorry if it makes you feel uneasy, but this how I talk. I assure you that there wont be time in game probably, but if you go and read what I said earlier very carefully you will find that my intentions were very clear. I won't WIFOM by repeating them here. | ||
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[QUOTE]On December 05 2012 20:40 AxleGreaser wrote: @OatsMaster [QUOTE] I am possibly not with a group of friends, which is why I am being analytical. oops, obviously we are playing friendly game, its our PM roles that may not be friends. [/QUOTE] | ||
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Lots of questions inside the spoilers. In Kicks case: A thing I will find convincing is emotional plays. In particular (I believe) if he is scum then early on, he will feel confident, as he has more knowledge than town if he is town then early on he will, be more tentative, probing looking for knowledge and information Thus i will look early on where for the tells will be strongest. Now to see which fits. I really should not do this one, because it is an OMGUS, but it does? It is a risk for me, as I am making case on a point where he voted on me. (meh) + Show Spoiler + On December 04 2012 11:17 Kickstart wrote: Yamato has it pretty much right. I have a bad habit of going after things which I deem dumb, but dumb doesn't mean scum. Less than 2 hours later. On December 05 2012 13:50 Kickstart wrote: ##AxleGreaser Because dumb. If you didn't vote because you think I am scum why did you vote? When you are scum you can go after anything you do not understand, as such you will scatter gun these "vote because its dumb tells". They will get you dead fast. I would hope that as town he would not do this. Use your own judgement. If you think he would do that even if town, then it is a null tell. being wrong about what to do when, is one thing, but when it contradicts what you did 1.5 hrs earlier, without you even saying your other reason went away. That is also peculiar, but perhaps also a null tell, do you believe Kicks would do that as even as town? + Show Spoiler + When this happened, which is such justified pressure that is applied and it makes me think Yamato is a bit more town. How does Kicks conclude the opposite? Might it be because he knows * I am town and if I get lynched he can then attack Yamato over it and gain cred? * I am scum and hes trying to protect me? * what Yamato is doing is wrong, and Kicks knows Yamato should know better? * he is sad he voted for me because I am Because dumb? It is because he is [red]scum[red] I cant make another story fit. Can you? yamato77 should pressure me for that, at that time. On December 04 2012 12:40 yamato77 wrote: EBWOP: Oh, you actually ARE avoiding me, cool. ##Vote AxleGreaser A scum player who already knows what I am may not even know why it was done. Also wont care. Kicks though is not suspicious of me leaving, why not? On December 04 2012 12:45 Kickstart wrote: ##FoS yamato Badgering people then voting them when they ignore his badgering He didn't badger, I left. Ok so lets assume that just an error and he really believe that Yamoto just gave of scum tell. What does Kicks Do? And why? Time line link here Does he wait to see if anything will be said in response to pressure. No Then follow up with more? There is no desire to see if information is now forthcoming. + Show Spoiler + meta + Show Spoiler + (yeah its suck eggs material) Please note if I am pressuring someone, I usually don't want help. If you are pressuring someone, I will try not to get involved. I usually learn just as much or more about the intentions of the person asking the questions as the one answering them. Instead he immediately emotionally appeals to all around hey come help me lynch this guy? How does he know he has the right guy? And does he even care? On December 04 2012 12:47 Kickstart wrote: I may be too early to jump the gun on thinking yamato is being scummy, but I haven't liked his incessant policy talk and now he just jumps on someone who he is badgering. Thoughts everyone? Well no he jumped on me for going away, when being questioned. And an hour an half before that I was too dumb to live? I don't think my play got much smarter in between. He then says Thoughts everyone? which AFAIK, is pretty much a scum claim. Scum hunting is focussed process whereby you find out why people do things. Asking for whatever random thoughts other people have, is just going to make noise. Worse it gives scum the opportunity to participate, without having to initiate their own lines of inquiry. Doing that is wanting to work together, make friends, with just anyone at all. Town does not do that. Even a nervous town will be worried about making friends with a scum, and then getting lynched for it. ##unVOTE NoLynch We now in my view have viable D1 lynch based on what I wrote. I am now convinced this is not the town I deserved it has at least 1 scum in it. Don't worry host I still <3 <3 <3. I am nice gentle soul. ##VOTE Kicks | ||
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after himself voting on me. I the order wrong. I am still happy with the Vote on Kicks. | ||
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##unvote Kicks ##vote NoLynch | ||
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Especially the games. Although two or three will probably take one for the team. It is unimportant who. The problem was before I did not see it as my place to do that. Now I see all I had to do was put the left over bits that I had not explained together. but I must not give the game away so first so You know who I am. I must first do no harm Playing this game is about as bizzare as playing illuminati This game has gotten really confusing, so my intention is to build a case based on the early play where the game seemed to make a little more sense to me as a game of Mafia. ## unvote ## vote NoLynch Then having made that case I will vote with the courage of my convictions that this time I have solved the game. It is possible I will get night killed, it is even possible that by being a good townie making my case voting it and sticking to it, that I will raise so much suspicion that I will get Lynched. All risks I am prepared to take. | ||
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If I vote do people want to see the argument or just the vote? | ||
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On December 06 2012 11:04 Rad wrote: @Axle Your previous vote was on Kick. Do you consider him confirmed town after the oats flip? When can we expect you to reveal your master plan? I did have a plan then it changed. Nothing confirms town in perpetuity. Especially by the actions of another 'scum'. Any action can be scum at some level of misdirect. Any action can be town at some level of WTF is happening man. I was going to say more things earlier, I think I started but was then stopped. because although I didn't get a read but I got a feel the wind changed direction. Anytime I said anything, it made shit worse. doh. well yeah. doh. That's the door I came in through. Hence this time I asked before posting the argument. Not a joke but C&C alert + Show Spoiler + The trouble with trying to be a fireman when you are not, is that if you have a great big powerful hose but in truth you have zero actual wisdom born from experience all you wind up doing is waving it around like a dick and pissing in all the wrong peoples pockets. Having realised that, as I knew I was town, and should also flip town as well I STFU. Yeah I saw that coming too. Although, perhaps despite what I think I know, I will flip scum too. Yeah that it be cool game too. All townies as far as they know but N of them will actually flip scum. If that is the game the I am the most likely (obvious actually) to be the one that flips scum. I believe I still have considerable time to read and think about the decision but unless I am greatly mistaken. Vote Nolynch was not really meant to be an option and it *is* just a way to lurky. Not an action. the only other option I currently considering is Vote AxleGreaser. When I first analysed the game it was the only one on the table when I realised no lynch was similar in effect but let everybody who was town live, which with in this game is a better win for this round. In the context of the larger game, I suspect Vote Axlegreaser has the pro town beneficial ramifications. To be sure that will take me some hours to find it all again. but that was the feel from last time I read the internet. The reasoning for that is I know my actions raised suspicion and hence confusion With 1 possible scum kill the first day, we have lots of time up our sleeves in this game So by me Voting me, and flipping Green(red?), I get to be confirmed town, or (deluded town). That will give town more information, with which they can then go after any scum if any that are left. Then you guys can go back to looking for scum, and i can go back to what I do best watch read, laugh, then read the entire internet because it is hilliarious. Do note if I should do my research first i have not. That is just a logical analysis of the current end game problem. At this point that is wishy washy and has not yet voted AxleGreaser. if that is your problem with it :| please as I will go check stuff When it all checks out, if there are no questions I will act. yeah yeah promises promises are scum tell. but already i think you have found that i am such an unusual beast that a problem you thought had two answers had 3. by putting it out there I check if I am now down to those two options. (I have more options but i am pretty sure they are not the right way out) Fundamentally my analysis is my choices are vote for me, or vote for anyone else on whom my best reads are all equal but stronger players. That looks like exactly two choices. If there are exactly two choices now then the decision is easy. Loose the weakest Link. | ||
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Especially lose the link not wearing a firemans hat. That would be true even if it thought it was not the weakest. | ||
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Or is that as bullet proof as it feels. Would you for instance like me to tell you why I wont vote for an argument you care to make or link to. BTW if it includes in game actions, in this game I reject your argument on the grounds I know you can BS me into any wrong move like that. This is after all in truth the first game of mafia I ever remember playing as stated. | ||
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So now do I need to go spend few hours validating it then I vote. Or is that as bullet proof as it feels. Would you for instance like me to tell you why I wont vote for an argument you care to make or link to. BTW if it includes in game actions, in this game I reject your argument on the grounds I know you can BS me into any wrong move like that. This is after all in truth the first game of mafia I ever remember playing as stated. | ||
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When I was questioning Oats about Why scum and Town would do things did you find those questions interesting? | ||
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and http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129392 if that is a help | ||
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Basis interference with question of Oats, when he now says I think they are probably good questions to have the answers to. I mean, that is the point of this entire game. You have to be able to discern what is scum play and what is town play. Why wasn't he listening to the answers when he was there, and why post other stuff in the middle of it. What was the purpose of the other stuff? Would you have done that, and do you think he would if he was town? Starting here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17128988 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129392 I then proceed to question him for about 2 hours (Why is no longer important, now that he has flipped red.) Why did Yamato repeatedly interrupt this? + Show Spoiler + On December 04 2012 22:01 yamato77 wrote: Kick is playing different from last game. Gonna have to read his filter from Mario Mini. + Show Spoiler + On December 04 2012 23:33 yamato77 wrote: Yeah, I know you could say that about me. I have almost certainly played completely different from last game. But kick's difference I think could be meaningful. I'm not entirely sure. Why choose now to reply to this challenge to Yam, if he knows hes town why not just see if these questions of mine turns out a better alternative? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129692 Isn't this promoting confusion? and again .... btw I have been talking to him for a some time hadn't you noticed? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129752 and again http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17130028 Here I finish rather pleasantly an innocuously. The question is where does the now known to scum rabbit run? + Show Spoiler + On December 05 2012 00:46 Oatsmaster wrote: Umm if your criteria for finding scum is how they scumhunt then ok..... Hey yamato, do you have any reads? Aside + Show Spoiler + Umm if your criteria for finding scum is how they scumhunt then ok..... And it is scum do things such as help people, to buddy up to them, help them do less useful things, and to gain sway and influence over emotional decisions town do things such as help people, who have just been squitted to recover afterwards, so they can be active again. Indeed Oats original post this one can be justified by town motivation http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=292&topic_id=385389 It did indeed help me. Ta. ##Vote Yamato | ||
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Case on Yamato77 Basis: interference with my questioning of Oats, when he now says of that questioning I think they are probably good questions to have the answers to. I mean, that is the point of this entire game. You have to be able to discern what is scum play and what is town play. Why wasn't he listening to the answers when he was there, and why post other stuff in the middle of it? What was the purpose of the other stuff? Would you have done that, and do you think he would if he was town? Starting here I was asking Oats a long series of questions http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17128988 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129392 I then proceed to question him for about 2 hours (Why is no longer important, now that he has flipped red.) Why did Yamato repeatedly interrupt this? Once might be an error, repeatedly is a pattern. + Show Spoiler + On December 04 2012 22:01 yamato77 wrote: Kick is playing different from last game. Gonna have to read his filter from Mario Mini. + Show Spoiler + On December 04 2012 23:33 yamato77 wrote: Yeah, I know you could say that about me. I have almost certainly played completely different from last game. But kick's difference I think could be meaningful. I'm not entirely sure. Why choose now to reply to this challenge to Yam, if he knows hes town why not just see if these questions of mine turns out a better alternative? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129692 Isn't this promoting confusion? and again .... btw I have been talking to him for a some time hadn't you noticed? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129752 and again http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17130028 Here I finish rather pleasantly an innocuously. The question is where does the now known to scum rabbit run? + Show Spoiler + On December 05 2012 00:46 Oatsmaster wrote: Umm if your criteria for finding scum is how they scumhunt then ok..... Hey yamato, do you have any reads? An Aside + Show Spoiler + Oats says: Umm if your criteria for finding scum is how they scumhunt then ok..... And it is scum do things such as help people, to buddy up to them, help them do less useful things, and to gain sway and influence over emotional decisions town do things such as help people, who have just been squitted to recover afterwards, so they can be active again. Indeed Oats original post this one can be justified by town motivation http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=292&topic_id=385389 It did indeed help me. Ta. ##Vote Yamato | ||
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##VOTE: Yamato77 | ||
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read every other dam thing. Damn | ||
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I do what I done since birth best, watch QQ and evaluate. I have worked out my most in town meta, this dog just will not bite EVER. What else I will do best is ask questions small, simple, exposing questions. That is not what I did as I was so green, but now I have some experience I think asking the right questions is my most powerful pro town tool. I am watching, because i can. | ||
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is my optimal play. Cos I am all good.If you what you have seen so far is Ok, I will only progress real real slow. Nothing will change fast, for a start, I need to do a lot more reads in this game. I will establish the common knowledge from that, then my play and the clarity of it will only get better. | ||
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If act without reads I think it just does the town game harm. | ||
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On December 07 2012 10:22 yamato77 wrote: Why would mafia kill a suspicious lurker? Sorry missed the question so much went by in the thread I got lost for the intent. Well take the example of newbie mini XXXI It happened twice, once on the first day, when MunkE who had not posted much was lynched. It also happened the second day, when aqua who was AFK got lynched. His AFKs were nice and regular, but there was post by him that was quite confusing about what may be able to happen. I can see how you might think you have some evidence of a scum slip in the first instance but I think if you reread that carefully it contains full disclosure. Was there one of those examples you think would be more interesting to discuss. Lurker Lynches, are quite different things to feigned AFK lynches. | ||
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Aqua last post of the night were his best feel reads from the day. As his vote is going down early due to those constraints it has to be on his best read. He is aware that if he gets up in the morning has quick read of the thread and sheeps someone then he will look bad. If he does not If the lynch goes somewhere else and finds scum he will look bad. But he bravely took the risk. (as we know know he was town) at the time it also looked scummy as in I dont care who gets lynched, and then fake claims to be AFK. This is the problem with all of these. The largest risk scum takes, is when they first make a claim to anyone Hapi about who they are and what their relation ship is. Is it plausible that they thought that was good enough lie to get away with, considering what you have seen since. yes WIFOm is an infinitely regressive game but at some point it such a ridiculously ballsy thing for a scum to do it I have never seen it done. | ||
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On December 07 2012 12:21 Sylencia wrote: Who is aqua and why did I have to read what you said about 3 times before I understood "Hapi" was not a player but the word "happy" -_- Feel free to be helpful like that as i dont know indirect to be. However be ready to claim your dumb man | ||
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My now growing concerns I also have strong feeling of confirmation bias. I thought it began in the lookout with view, but I starting to suspect all the pain dished was a setup. If you stop and think about who to... you will see self control. I will consider what I think of that after this setup is over. Given that from the start I told the truth and was possibly lied to... way to go town. The tendency to OMGUS LAL is so strong, if the truth is what I think it is. That is for later when you guys decide its your turn to start offering some or any truth as evidence of your intentions. When did all the lies start? In the beginning or at the lookout or are all the toys still yours? I think the drama came from an initial misread by you of honest information as WIFOM then tunnel vision and confirmation bias all the way to here. God you guys need a scQQby but... Your either going to have to start again and ask can two people be that rad... yeah.. heres a role claim HD HD HD HD / HD HD HD HD / HD HD HD HD / CSIRO W/E Town , and that's the puppy Can they be that pro real town... yeah have you nearly burnt them yeah Do you really understand how little they were asking for? and the commitment they made to get it? Its your world, but an anti scQQby do approach concerns me when I presume you do have an eject button. Would someone anyone care to posit a strategy where two such rad townies from one ip could ever approach you without looking rad scum? It does run in families as does towness. How much frickin honesty upfront is just enough to not WIFOM you and how would they know. whois somone is powerful tool that role claim was a long time ago. TL had that if they were curious. Did you invest town in effort an internet scavenger hunt? If you desire to protect what town position you have is so strong there is no way for rad real town to get in... if thats who you are looking for that hard for opens questions for you to ask you. Now look at.... did I rage, it did I have purpose in making noise. if you ran the scavenger hunt somewhere quit close is my response to troll after troll troll. which never mind... Enough of my concerns On December 07 2012 11:56 Kickstart wrote: @Axle Given the Day1 lynch of Oats turning out to be a successful scum hit, and then Cheese being night killed during night 1, who do you feel is most likely to be the second scum. Sorry yes I see no point in that kind hypothetical talk, I will only talk about this game. Story so far: Ok So Lynch D1 SCUM is Lynched on DOC is nkd. Well, hypothetically as me, I would pick my second top read in this game as Yam. Due to the case I made case earlier. We might as well start worrying now about what if Yam claims Blue. has no corroberating evidence of intention of what a real true town player would have been doing. Well as that confirms intent not to be town, without explanation compatible with the estimated skill level of the player (BTW I can explain how brand new rad skilled newb can do that if you like) (as I happen to have rather rad skills and I am a 50 year old newb to mafia, while that different I could explain the other) Once he claims blue he probably ought be able to tell us of some of the pro town information he has been feretting away. Not having any screams of fake claim, and throws a persons mind into a frazzle trying to work out WTF. No intent disproves blue, or is against play to win the little game, no counter (except for the fsking mess) proves town? AFK happens, suddenly your all flippin too, with stupid daft reasons. why are you flippin with lies. Oh yeah its your neat strategy to catch dumb scum, who believe lies so by telling various lies you filter through the scum candidates. Howver as no clever scum can flip claiming was scum baiting, perhaps LAL was right. If then other strong town reads start saying lies by talking about the setups they have seen, but not what arad skilled newb reads the rules to say... and this is why LAL is thing, but if your an actual rad young newb suddenly going no its all lies to the entire town who have both cred and experience is daft. And if your young rads experienced enough in just how social stuff works, you dont even have to be mafia player, to know you with certainty cant swim upstream in bullshitstorm about the role setups. At that point playing to the best of your ability pro town is STFU. It also does that to clever scum who know not to expose their hand. so its null. This is the problem with lies all the way down. This is the problem with Dunning Kruger. I often get my best reads from the first things person does are they trying to tell me stuff they are going to have to stick to. and what is it they actually want for the stake they are laying down. Knowledge is power and when you have enough of the former, you realise that just brings responsibility. As such blue roles must be payed responsibly not just sat on. So lets move on to, to where any real WTFman comes from. if Yamato claimed blue and there was no counter claim made, we have to assume in this setup he was really blue. That is unless of course is was stated the game was possibly open, but once again the strong town players says all sorts of stuff, again the skilled young newb town might shut down. Dunning Kruger is a fearful foe. 100% town players are worth a bit even when their blue powers are not a lot of practical use in the specific situation. Any real town player who actually gets lynched in that case is just fine with it. I would be, I would be even if there was much younger and it happened to them. Thats how you play town. Play for self is XXXXXX. However even real town player if say they had invested many hours as town collecting reads and stuff unlike the not real town blue, who just said i am blue and ......., well its going to be frustrating in way you don't believe to have lots of pro town work that you dont get to dump if your AFK and town back flips on you. What if town had said hey man if we have to flip as you cant make MYLO, what are your reads just in case? Probably roses and tulips all the way down. If there was any possibility of the AFK being real because say you had town read on them, and you didnt rely? on meta information you got from outside the game..... then the correct actual town play was any real town who had some reads, but knew their play that game had been sub par so the rest of town, didn't have strong feel for them. In order to keep access to the AFKs reads one of them might even say pick me or pick someone. Cos I can give you the reads i have, and we fsked up missed our chance to get his. Even though if you read a game that hard there were so many statements about when he would and wouldn't be there they were WIFOM. Yet still town players were not cooperating to maximise what input he could have despite his rigid AFK cycle. Well for while after a mess like that where all that work was wasted... some things might happen. Real town would put it behind them though. However if that happened two games in row, and the older newb was looking at going down the the same sewer of of WTF man just play like town if your town, work with me within the real world limitation I have. The choices could rapidly come down to play and suffer and never play again or just not play in the first place, and knowing your town and rad town at that that would suck big time. At that you might stamp your foot once. Then back off. Once there is some noise and the case gets examined, yeah what you did was wrong and it will get your wrist slapped. But hey man as described above seriously real town, really will take one for the team. And I tell you having just run this through in head, my actual town read on you guys is not going up. I cant let it go down on that though, even good town can make moves that kill a real town player. It surely is just mistakes. Now there is question a mans gotta ask himself do we feel lucky. What if its real. Was there now an apparent reason for the, old dog, to try so fsking hard to say its ok its ok look I am saying who I am and attracting attention | ||
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My hardest is quite slow play. This one wont be my hardest but it is probably more intelligible to most. There a rule it is Play to Win (implicitly for you team) When you implement that different people will balance different kinds of wins differently. I seek comments from the audience of which win condition evaluation function are in this fora acceptable. That is in fact the root of the problem. I will just do some town versions You can play such that the team you are in this time will win (Town expedient now) You can play such that the team you are in this time will win this and future games (Town LAL) You can play such that the team you are in this time will win and you be alive. (Town greedy) You can play such that the team you are in this time will win and you be alive and leading. (Town show pony) You can play such Sum wins are worth more to you than town once because I think they are often epic. and have lots of nyah nyah value. You can play such that you get the most wins for the least effort expended (Town/scum cheap shots) There is probably a boundary on the cheap shot version in that you cant piss people off with abuse. Although this would also endorse the all blues are likely to be lazy up until they flip, forcing us to lynch working blues who cant keep their powder dry or get lynched AFK, or through some paranoia vetting system to keep liars out. You can do anything except verbally badger people in game. | ||
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On December 07 2012 14:50 AxleGreaser wrote: Someone earlier invited me to play my hardest. My hardest is quite slow play. This one wont be my hardest but it is probably more intelligible to most. There a rule it is Play to Win (implicitly for you team) When you implement that different people will balance different kinds of wins differently. I seek comments from the audience of which win condition evaluation function are in this fora acceptable. That is in fact the root of the problem. I will just do some town versions which of these are acceptable individual definitions of The a rule it is Play to Win? (implicitly for your team) You can play such that the team you are in this time will win (Town expedient now) You can play such that the team you are in this time will win this and future games (Town LAL) You can play such that the team you are in this time will win this time and you be alive. (Town greedy) You can play such that the team you are in this time will win and you be alive and leading. (Town show pony) You can play such Sum wins are worth more to you than town once because I think they are often epic. and have lots of nyah nyah value. This will lead to play your town role suboptimally for the game you are playing to setup an epic win for the other team later. ^^^^^^^^^^ Is that play to win There are even more categories but that ought give me a feel for the place. You can play such that you get the most wins for the least effort expended (Town/scum cheap shots) There is probably a boundary on the cheap shot version in that you cant piss people off with abuse. Although this would also endorse the all blues are likely to be lazy up until they flip, forcing us to lynch working blues who cant keep their powder dry or get lynched AFK, or through some paranoia vetting system to keep liars out. You can do anything except verbally badger people in game. | ||
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To help me do that I do need to be able to ask questions, which you then either answer or dont. I draw your attention again to these | ||
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This game use Majority Lynch. So with that in mind, I fell best served by doing this as I am sure I am Town I do however appear to have made number of mistakes this game, raising suspicions on myself These are neither through lack of skill nor effort but experience in the game itself. I think if I engage with players I will get played as that is fast and furious. All my best reads and best contributions to the game were made when I was really very quiet asking questions only in the silence when other were not hunting down scum. When I was questioning Oats, for instance I had reasons for my questions. Yamato77 I mistakenly before described as having a scummy feel for interfering that is wrong it is for me a perfectly null tell. It is that because if Yam is town but does not know why I am doing that he may want to help by trying to direct me where would be useful. That is now I understand not useful most of the people in here are town. Most have an idea they are pursuing. If they are talking I will mmm More importantly while I apparently asked the right questions of Oats they were a pressure play to see what happened So far i am convinced that I can have my vote swayed. I can however ask interesting questions. but it is my intention to only ask those when i know I am not interfering with others I do understand it was necessary to apply sufficient pressure to force me to the answer, as I was indeed playing very suspiciously, and my posts errg. Thus ##Vote NoLynch As Town I place my fate in their hands. That does mean I am not doing things to help town. To help town all I have to is be quiet when i believe pressure is being applied. And ask questions if I find questions that I believe need asking at that time. | ||
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that he may want to help by trying to direct me where would be useful. That does make that good town play, and is not what I will be doing, but I cant be sure it is scum play either. There are many reasons either might do that and explaining them to scum only helps scum. Tiem for me to :| | ||
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Why is this the optimal play. Mind your own beeswax. ##Vote AxleGreaser | ||
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Voting for myself places me more in other peoples hands which sound like a good idea except that lets then manipulate you too. the only thing I know for certain I said at the outset I must remember trust what I say first. I know 100% who I am. ##Vote NoLynch | ||
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##Vote NoLynch | ||
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Thus capability to do better, also as I noticed that Oats was a new player playing in your main matches and the newbie game it stood to reason he would have some skill at discerning information. If a scum player had been targeted and not set up the fake claim, that is just what it would have looked like. My intention when playing this game was to see if when playing on the inside of game and posting if I could still do the same as in the last game and read people. I didn't know. As I understand it, when player who is likely to get lynched gets wagon built on them that provides information to the other players. So yeah I am willing to be the townie that gets lynched. I settled on the no Lynch vote as it requires more votes to seal the deal. Also if it is not a good play, Id expect another player to try something. If that didn't go as game play so fast it confused me then, I may or may not be able to help that. So far Kicks and your vote is on me, yours has some real content, that seeks to win the game. Hence I am addressing it. Kicks reason was 'whatever'. While the first part of your post addresses this game. "Who was worse, blue oats trying to save himself last game, or you literally contributing nothing to this game but confusion. " What game is this addressing please? I signed up for a newbie game because i have never played before. When not doing work for town when you are capable is one thing, I am failing not not trying. | ||
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In that they would have claimed role, said oh sorry I didnt get any reads, to get the role claim. To make that harder to get away with Town player try with the abilities they have. | ||
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What win scenario would that fit for you? That 'newb' game was too hard for me. | ||
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It now has 3 responses. one portraying himself as Angry. Then through a conversation worked up to Voting. Yours applies emotional pressure from things outside the game to get me to do something, different. Other people that have other reads on you will ad that to their existing information Which ever of the town people that are doing that, have the advantage of watching the interaction from the outside. By waiting for an emotion vote to go first, it may be assessed that you have evaluated you need to be careful People who know you better than me will judge whether you though that was plausible reason. What intention do you have in asking me to explain mine? | ||
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Sp that vote might get a seconder. | ||
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On December 08 2012 02:39 AxleGreaser wrote: Rad are you here. { notes to self must learn to ask first.} | ||
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I have a feeling that throughout the rest of your mafia career (if you could call it that), you'll never push reads, you'll never get into arguments, never be "caught in a scum slip," and probably never be thoroughly understood (except here and there, occasionally). | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On December 04 2012 08:38 Rad wrote: Maybe someone hates himself and this game and wants to punish himself by playing it. | ||
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Based on what? Why else emotionally prod me? + Show Spoiler + On December 04 2012 10:29 Rad wrote: 3. Green. I'll let you figure out why (spoiler: it's cause I'm a genius). [QUOTE]On December 04 2012 12:20 Rad wrote: [QUOTE]Don't hold back thinking others are just straight up better than you, waiting for them to make a move.[/QUOTE] Ok... | ||
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##Vote Rad Are you there? Please id like to talk to you. I have some more questions about intentions. Especially when they began. | ||
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On December 08 2012 05:19 Rad wrote: Axle did you really just OMGUS me? =/ I dont think so. Is there time we could discuss more interactively before the next lynch time? | ||
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On December 08 2012 05:40 Kickstart wrote: Yes we have over 24 hours left. Please post some of your reasoning and questions for Rad so that we may all see your reasons and so that Rad may answer the questions when he has time. This is generally how forums work, you post something and then wait for a response so that not everyone is required to be there at the same exact time, you don't wait for everyone to gather in the thread and then start posting. Good if we are going to discuss things, then me discussing it with the person who committed first and hence most to this task is best way for me to be sure, that neither of us disclose more than is necessary to establish a shared understanding. First a theoretical discussion of why it is not currently wise for anyone to just go blah blah blah. If you are town 100% and you don't know who you are dealing with even if you do have a strong read. You should not show all your cards. You should not show cards in an atmosphere where there are arbitrarily long periods to craft an answer. One of the way to limit the depth to which the lies go is to insist the honest exchange happen in real time. While with time it is possible to make up very very deep lies you cant logic your way out of its real time exchange that carries risk for both parties. You drink the wine one molecule at time each. The prisoners dilemma, is a prisoners dilemma, but the iterated prisoners dilemma has tit for tat, I have not verified this, so if a mathematician wishes to object, please tell me. If you were careful each round in the iteration could be for higher and higher stakes and although the temptation to defect grows, the ever increasing possibility of future reward, ensures honesty in perpetuity. Q1. If someone wishes to discuss why we are going to play an iterated prisoners dilemma. Please do so. If you wish to show good faith by adding your own indipendent mathematical reason you have freedom to do so in you own way. A game of math tit for tat anyone? Or is math common language where it is too hard to lie.? We will thus not be playing one round of prisoners dilemma. I am happy to discuss it with either someone I trust so as to gain more trust. I am happy to discuss it with either someone I dont trust so as to solidify that read too. So is someone from my nominated list available? The questions and answering and stuff will go slow then speed up. If you don't like that please explain when all I ask is small amount of real time (now not prepared earlier) to satisfy my need to validate you, you cant give that? So is someone from my nominated list available? | ||
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In an iterated prisoners dilemma each party takes a small risk, where cooperating has the biggest pay off, but either side could 'defect' at anytime. If this is an actual game, this is the best strategy I know. TBMK there is no extra risk to you than if someone says tell me everything you know about the situation. Indeed there is less. If Kick asks me to disclose stuff if doing so does not get result, that reflects poorly on Kick What I am proposing above minimises the Risk for Kick who is to me (towner than) Rad. If it shuts your head. Just say it hurts my head and play. If the math is wrong i take the blame Ok? Look I put more bet on the table. | ||
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but then I get the reward for taking the risk of showing how to play this. That is no small risk/reward as apparently this appears to not be what you expected hence common knowledge. | ||
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That they wish to prosecute using an iterated dilemma as described | ||
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##vote Nolynch I can see way either could be scum. I dont have the time or the past history to decide. Does anyone else wish to nominate which one of those two we lynch first. We have sufficient time to lynch both, unless anyone else has abetter candidate for today and case they can make. (Do note how little information I disclosed... got here anyway(or an equivalent place). I am suspecting that may not have been the expected mechanic?) | ||
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I can see way either could be scum. I dont have the time or the past history to decide. Does anyone else wish to nominate which one of those two we lynch first. We have sufficient time to lynch both, unless anyone else has abetter candidate for today and case they can make. Thus if no one has better candidates, the win is by Lynching Both, but choosing one to go first. I not only want to win but win by the biggest safety margin. Does anyone know which we should lynch first? (it is not like you are fosing them just giving anything other than an exactly equal read. To move things along. I have chosen Rad. ##Vote RAD If nothing else earlier I was accused of Lurking... whats being AFK when there is an argument on the table? | ||
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##Vote RAD | ||
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I will go first.......... I have more than 2 hours How long do you have. I say Rads post is saying that I am being voted for just for being unreadable. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17160556 I have evidence. Did you think that. too? A cheap answer is: Yeah, I suppose, but what is it. A more expensive answer is: Yes. I see Rads post as saying that is 100% of the reason for doing it. Do You? A cheap answer is: Yeah, I suppose, but what is it. A more expensive answer is: Yes. | ||
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If was not your reason for voting me what was? GO. | ||
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I think it is the best plan. and will carry it out soonish unless someone wants it. I think I probably ought be the one to take the risk as I need more credibility the most. | ||
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If he has no other scum reads right now what is he attempting to do? Why? Please form your own conclusion. shh. Then I will tell you mine | ||
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Rad has just claimed he was goign to vote for someone just because he had no read on them when he also had no read on anyone else. If I was guilty of lurking when i had nothing so is he. That would be an impasse. Except there are two lynches left. I could take one for the team. But why if we can get a better chance of getting it right the first time? | ||
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whether or not he had any scum reads. He states on the basis of that knowledge of himself that such people should be lynched for that | ||
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On December 08 2012 13:44 Rad wrote: I'm suspicious of jidolboy and arn. I do not have a strong read on them because they have done the most lurking. If I were to vote someone besides you, it would likely be one of them. Do you have any scum reads right now? Besides me of course which totally isn't an OMGUS vote. yes You are my strongest scum read. Why were you suspicious of jidolboy and arn.? | ||
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Why were you suspicious of jidolboy and arn.? | ||
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Rad originally voted for me because Iw as doing nothing and not getting reads and stuff. Thus he was up for "lol yamato I explained my vote in my vote post. It's a policy lynch based on the fact that he gets more and more dangerous for town as time goes on (completely unreadable one way or the other)." This now is strong commitment to a policy lynch when he simultaneously claims "I'm suspicious of jidolboy and arn." when asked about that and pressed and asked to be brief and timely he goes afk. I claim that is much better case than a null read. Does anyone have case they wish to claim is stronger? As apparently RADs case on his suspects is taking a while to find. | ||
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As has been observed, in the full flap of the fight I get flustered and make errors. If that is what is flying around I will let those that can do. it is now my intention to make the best case i can on Rad. Slowly and carefully. I think few things shook loose. Of course if Rad or anyone wishes to discuss it interactively some more I am happy too. Otherwise I trust your judgment that I can make case, that will make it stick. It may cost me getting lynched tonight but that is Ok. go team. | ||
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my last post was not a request for silence, please treat both as null. {must learn in here never social} | ||
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On December 08 2012 13:30 Rad wrote: How long do we have to talk axle? Well I'm about to jump in another game of HotS. Then I'll probably check back, and play more hots, and then check back, and probably some more hots. So you have about 20 seconds to get your first question out. In red so you don't miss it. As you have observed Rad sometimes real Life gets in the way. I will be going out soon for the evening. I see other people think it is interesting too. next time I get chance i will check the thread and see if there some logical reasoning i have missed. I really dont think so. I will however happily read any coherent argument you can discuss with anyone that wants to talk to you. | ||
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On December 08 2012 23:26 Arnarnion wrote: Guys, I'm really sorry about my absence from the thread, I'm in exam and essay crunch time right now and so my mind has been a bit preoccupied. At the same time, I've recently having pretty unpleasant computer issues which mainly involve it shutting down entirely at random points. But enough of my excuses, I'm going to look through the thread right now, but is there any current topics of controversy that you guys would like me to address? Are you here? | ||
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As you have observed Rad sometimes real Life gets in the way. I will be going out soon for the evening. I see other people think it is interesting too. next time I get chance i will check the thread and see if there some logical reasoning i have missed. I really dont think so. I will however happily read any coherent argument you can discuss with anyone that wants to talk to you. One reason those things happen is because they do. Thos were my thoughts at that time. Right now if there is some here chatting would be helpful. | ||
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Like most things they, have multiple interpretations but because they are all on related topics comapring them carefully is good. Firstly, but i will come back to that. + Show Spoiler + On December 08 2012 19:24 Kickstart wrote: Well I am off to bed, should be back before lynch time (though I am prone to sleeping for excessively long periods of time). I do hope to see more from especially arnarnion and jidolboy when I wake, though almost everyone (maybe not Axle or myself :D) could stand to post a bit more. Secondly, arnion does some actual scum hunting. + Show Spoiler + On December 08 2012 19:35 Sylencia wrote: ##unvote ##vote jidolboy Doing this to show who I suspect, still seems suspicious as hell to me, Arn just looks like he is afk. Lastly Arnarnion makes a claim about what he is going to do then does not do it. That is a larger claim + Show Spoiler + On December 08 2012 23:26 Arnarnion wrote: Guys, I'm really sorry about my absence from the thread, I'm in exam and essay crunch time right now and so my mind has been a bit preoccupied. At the same time, I've recently having pretty unpleasant computer issues which mainly involve it shutting down entirely at random points. But enough of my excuses, I'm going to look through the thread right now, but is there any current topics of controversy that you guys would like me to address? That is a relatively expensive thing to do. It is either bad play or he knows he has some credibility to spend. Arnion thinks a Town should go look at the thread. ========= At most Only one of the three posters is scum. The odd one out came first. The second one came second and cast a different interpretation on what should be done cheaply. Arnion who goes last emphasizes his claim, making it expensive to do casts the deciding vote for me. Conclusion: The first advice which was given both to himself and me is wrong. Why he did that is again up to you to fathom. It produced the right result, was it slip or an expensive attempt then endorsed by the others it is also in my opinion wrong, you need to form your own conclusions by examining what I saw. It also makes sense to me that I need to do things Now. As indicated I dont go well when its going fast. If there is an error in what I have done, and i got lynched but we are not then certain of the win, I need to do what i can now to make that happen. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On December 08 2012 19:24 Kickstart wrote: Well I am off to bed, should be back before lynch time (though I am prone to sleeping for excessively long periods of time). I do hope to see more from especially arnarnion and jidolboy when I wake, though almost everyone (maybe not Axle or myself :D) could stand to post a bit more. Advice that is wrong for at least one of us, because now only one can be scum. It also, provides an excuse for an arbitrarily long absence. fos KickStart Earlier http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17159067 when I started flopping around KickStart Said This http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17159150 Not voting and not actively looking for scum does not help town. but now for some reason http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17173145 though almost everyone (maybe not Axle or myself :D) could stand to post a bit more. Whats stranger is this time, it is only post a bit more and not hunt for scum. FOS KickStart Hey KickStart are you there? | ||
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by actual I mean casts a vote | ||
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There are still details to be sorted out, but first do no harm, appears to me to solve all risks on that front. On with just this game, This could have been so so much easier, if only i had had the courage of my convictions from the start. There were so many pressures, ideas and sources of information that I could trust but with so many layers of lies. I had tried every mathematical approach I know, and seemingly even to my self come to a complete standstill. In the end the only thing that is true to the convictions that I cam in through the door with is this. What has been true every game, I have watched or played. The feel reads I can trust best are the ones I make very early in the game. I should listen to every other source of information, even the ones that are lies can tell you things, providing you remember that. Of all the pressures and influences which one do I tust? The voice inside my head, the one that is mine. In the end I must trust that because i know what I am 100%. I must proceed both with caution courage, though First do no harm is the creed that is me, to not simply be a useless twit, I must proceed both with caution courage of my convictions. Which is also what I knew when I came in the door. On December 05 2012 23:43 AxleGreaser wrote: @Kicks Would you care to comment on these decisions that you made? Lots of questions inside the spoilers. In Kicks case: A thing I will find convincing is emotional plays. In particular (I believe) if he is scum then EARLY ON, he will feel confident, as he has more knowledge than town if he is town then early on he will, be more tentative, probing looking for knowledge and information Thus i will look early on where for the tells will be strongest. Now to see which fits. I really should not do this one, because it is an OMGUS, but it does? It is a risk for me, as I am making case on a point where he voted on me. (meh) + Show Spoiler + On December 04 2012 11:17 Kickstart wrote: Yamato has it pretty much right. I have a bad habit of going after things which I deem dumb, but dumb doesn't mean scum. Less than 2 hours later. On December 05 2012 13:50 Kickstart wrote: ##AxleGreaser Because dumb. If you didn't vote because you think I am scum why did you vote? When you are scum you can go after anything you do not understand, as such you will scatter gun these "vote because its dumb tells". They will get you dead fast. I would hope that as town he would not do this. Use your own judgement. If you think he would do that even if town, then it is a null tell. being wrong about what to do when, is one thing, but when it contradicts what you did 1.5 hrs earlier, without you even saying your other reason went away. That is also peculiar, but perhaps also a null tell, do you believe Kicks would do that as even as town? + Show Spoiler + When this happened, which is such justified pressure that is applied and it makes me think Yamato is a bit more town. How does Kicks conclude the opposite? Might it be because he knows * I am town and if I get lynched he can then attack Yamato over it and gain cred? * I am scum and hes trying to protect me? * what Yamato is doing is wrong, and Kicks knows Yamato should know better? * he is sad he voted for me because I am Because dumb? It is because he is [red]scum[red] I cant make another story fit. Can you? yamato77 should pressure me for that, at that time. On December 04 2012 12:40 yamato77 wrote: EBWOP: Oh, you actually ARE avoiding me, cool. ##Vote AxleGreaser A scum player who already knows what I am may not even know why it was done. Also wont care. Kicks though is not suspicious of me leaving, why not? On December 04 2012 12:45 Kickstart wrote: ##FoS yamato Badgering people then voting them when they ignore his badgering He didn't badger, I left. Ok so lets assume that just an error and he really believe that Yamoto just gave of scum tell. What does Kicks Do? And why? Time line link here Does he wait to see if anything will be said in response to pressure. No Then follow up with more? There is no desire to see if information is now forthcoming. + Show Spoiler + meta + Show Spoiler + (yeah its suck eggs material) Please note if I am pressuring someone, I usually don't want help. If you are pressuring someone, I will try not to get involved. I usually learn just as much or more about the intentions of the person asking the questions as the one answering them. Instead he immediately emotionally appeals to all around hey come help me lynch this guy? How does he know he has the right guy? And does he even care? On December 04 2012 12:47 Kickstart wrote: I may be too early to jump the gun on thinking yamato is being scummy, but I haven't liked his incessant policy talk and now he just jumps on someone who he is badgering. Thoughts everyone? Well no he jumped on me for going away, when being questioned. And an hour an half before that I was too dumb to live? I don't think my play got much smarter in between. He then says Thoughts everyone? which AFAIK, is pretty much a scum claim. Scum hunting is focussed process whereby you find out why people do things. Asking for whatever random thoughts other people have, is just going to make noise. Worse it gives scum the opportunity to participate, without having to initiate their own lines of inquiry. Doing that is wanting to work together, make friends, with just anyone at all. Town does not do that. Even a nervous town will be worried about making friends with a scum, and then getting lynched for it. ##unVOTE NoLynch We now in my view have viable D1 lynch based on what I wrote. I am now convinced this is not the town I deserved it has at least 1 scum in it. Don't worry host I still <3 <3 <3. I am nice gentle soul. To tell you truth in all this confusion, I kind a lost track of where I had been up to the following hard reset will synchronise me with things. Hey Kick, do you feel Lucky. ##unvote ##VOTE Kicks everyone else should still be aware, I will still have my eyes on you. shh no dancing in the streets we have scum to hunt. Celebrations, are for when the hunt is done. | ||
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The logic used in that whole train of thought was based on false premise. I feel Rad knew that, and trusted I did too. That is what I think we did together. So we were locked on course for potential MAD. Rad doubled down on that by I believe being sure he went down first. Who, which one person, was down with that? On December 08 2012 19:24 Kickstart wrote: Well I am off to bed, should be back before lynch time (though I am prone to sleeping for excessively long periods of time). I do hope to see more from especially arnarnion and jidolboy when I wake, though almost everyone (maybe not Axle or myself :D) could stand to post a bit more. again as mentioned earlier this is feeling that it is Kick that trying make me do what he wants. unFOS Rad. Again because it feels right. ##unvote ##vote Kicks | ||
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On December 04 2012 10:41 Kickstart wrote: Got home from school early hurray. This will be my third game, my first game was Mario Mini Mafia where we won as town, my second game was Newbie Mini Mafia XXXI where I lost as scum. On lurker lynch policy I am of the opinion you lynch top scum reads, that is the goal of the game after all. If someone lurking seriously becomes an issue then they can be dealt with at the adequate time. Emph Add. This appears to me to be subtly buddying the whole of town. For me, Inside my head it feels like this there is the voice I listen to me, and there is this other voice, whispering, Yay team, be my friend. That post sticks in my mind. The feel of the other players first posts is more one of quiet distrust. While we all know one another are probably town The game history is one thing, but listing the previous win loss record also feels like buddying up to town. It is subtle but it is there. | ||
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[QUOTE]On December 08 2012 19:24 Kickstart wrote: Well I am off to bed, should be back before lynch time (though I am prone to sleeping for excessively long periods of time). I do hope to see more from especially arnarnion and jidolboy when I wake, though almost everyone (maybe not Axle or myself :D) could stand to post a bit more.[/QUOTE] To expand upon this so you understand my reasoning. If i just commit to that course of action and it turns out I was wrong, then having lynched Rad, they then have to lynch me. The person who is happy for me to go that wrong way is Kick. If he is scum these actions make much more sense. While these actions are not the early on in the game, they are also at a time when for me intention was best observed. | ||
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I bet your going to cry, when you know how hard I tried not to Listen the all town COACHES. That was even earlier, and I didn't hear, that at all. While I can make early good reads me being so new too this I missed soo many others. This early post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=159&topic_id=385389 does not give me an accurate feel at all. The basis I think it is the past pre game history is misleading ME and clouding my ability to be on the same page as him at all. Oats may have been in two games, this however is my first, thus our understanding of the game back here was very different. I think I have only very recently got on the right page. | ||
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Another critical post from the start is this one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17124574 This post has a strong town feel. One reason is that it comes in with plan of how to get the game started, by asking some questions, it is a good plan for how get a game going on the right track. In truth as back then I really played mainly by instinct, I have no idea what happened. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17178564 | ||
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On December 09 2012 09:14 AxleGreaser wrote: This last post of mine gives me an itchy feeling like I have not quite got it yet http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17178564 Damn and the problem is because this is actually my first game I have not played as scum ever. They have plans too. The difference is scum lie, I am town I will tell the truth, even if it costs me. ##unvote ##vote Yamato | ||
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to the harder logic, to the full light of day. I only acquired my knowledge late in the game. My gut feel is I just missed the chance to win. and that we may instead be at a coin flip. which is probably what we were at when this started. so | ||
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I will be working out some stuff. if you think I _really_ do need to know things you can say them but in general in the night phase as far as I know it is time to mmmm. I will be back in few hours. And say if I have got there yet. Ta guys it was epic, lets hope it still will still also be glorious. At least my heads in the game now. :| | ||
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I was aware that between http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17179532 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17179723 The time of the deadline had passed even if blue EOD had not. hence: yeah bummer Then I wrote: I need to count better, I think I have time Then i thought why am I posting EOD time? Wheres the banner? Ah ..... {double bummer} I now hope I have the problem I deserve. be happy, its all good guys, trust the rusty gears are turning. | ||
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I have observed variety of motivations since i have been here. If you have knowledge that i dont you may perceive other reasons such as past meta to explain those actions. If so then my best estimations of motivation, are not the be all and end all, they are simply what i felt was going on in this game from my perspective. I have a clear strong read of intent, and then progressively worse ones. They will be summarised here then recounted with as much detail as i have time on the clock. It is important to note that as I now believe there is a shared basis of common knowledge some DetailS will be omitted as it is assumed we all know what they are. That represents a risk for me, as I am very knew to seeing them and may have missed some. Well Ok I certainly missed some in this game. My first strongest feeling, is that Rad has been interfering with my ability to hunt for scum by pressing me on matters, in an emotive way, that makes it harder for me to get feel read on what else is happening. One of the ways town recognises scum is that they do things that interfere with you. Unfortunately another actual town who does not know if you are town or scum must do that a bit too. That happened most clearly when I was pressed on what i had said prior to the game. and with various emotional pushes mad eon me that I think I have described before. I will do as much again now as I can. My second strongest feeling is actually for Yamato, which came back as a surprise to me, with the timing of one event which then made me reconsider things. It is for me often the timing of things that matters the most. This happened when I was questioning Oakmaster, I was doing it because it was important to me to know what level of skill there was behind what was being displayed. I took a statement he had made which he claimed he dis not understand and proceeded to very slowly show him what it meant. If I was in fact dealing with a person, playing in the open at the limit of their capacity at some point they would have learned something. Faking I do understand this and don't that is one thing faking the active process of learning is another. I am convinced Oak master understood what i said originally perfectly well. That was what I gained form that. As I was clearly proceeding with some intent, only one person decided no that would not do, and that was Yamato. My third strongest read is actually on Kick. This one is weird. When reading previous game s I was sure i would find, kick annoying to play with, a viable strategy but annoying. Instead found him helpful, and I am sorry kick, but as this is feel read Kick felt like yappy little dog, that hunts things out of the bushes. That is what qualifies this as my third read. Was that motivated by an actual desire to be helpful or just to buddy up? Again I don't have the meta to know. So you must combine my feel read with what you know. Thus if I could as this time I would V o t e Rad F O S Yamato f o s Kick | ||
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perhaps it was a legitimate question for out there. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17123728 It is also possible it is legitimate pressure here after all town has to find out if I am town somehow http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17160556 Oh and BTW who should turn up again and interfer with either my or Rads intent. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17167882 Yam http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17168212 Eventually at some point Rad does not want to deal with it anymore. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17169272 I would sugegst that indicates to me, he does not wish to argue this point http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17160556 If you know why he was pressing me there, and what he found out that may explain it. For me I dont know, thus for me it reads strong scum intent, either that or a larger style of bird dog. Again that will be for you to judge. If you are in the fullness of time considering these you should read the thread in those regions for yourself. That is probably even better than me pulling out all the details, as if you let me paint all of the picture perhaps you would catch any confirmation bias i have. It occurs to me I did not understand the intent of this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17169643 and this highly uncharcteristic this one. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17170088 If you do, then while I may have perceived Rads role scum interfering it may have been he was a townie investigating an unknown. This http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17170088 did not just pop into existence There must be some reason that it was dropped at that time at the time that I happened I did not reach these conclusions as indicated I don't do that kind of thinking in real time. I have however reached the conclusion i should address Rads post more accurately as an immediate priority | ||
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I know it is not to bottom post or top post o something here but I am going to go through what I said and tear its intent down into bits. If Rad is now quite town, that makes his question real. It is a question of my intent. This to me ["Who was worse, blue oats trying to save himself last game, or you literally contributing nothing to this game but confusion."] means that this From last NMM obs: is now part of this game. It was my first ever post here. I had never made case before I was actually surprised it came together like. It starts "glhf" becuase it is a game that we play here it is not for keeps. "Its hammer time." because i believed the argument to be solid. "If this post is not what I ought put here, I am good with editing it away." States I am not sure how to deal with this but if I did it wrong, I am happy with how it gets fixed. "If OakMaster turns up would someone kindly direct him to this question, that might be best thrashed out here not in Day 1 of XXXII noob game (As that might terrify the natives)" What happens in the game ought stay in the game and it did. As this is my first ever game I have brought nothing out of any previous game into this one. "Oakmaster I have never played game of mafia in my life..... So you might tend to discount what I say. However if an utter wet noob can say this too you and be right... perhaps there is a real problem. Try getting some of obs to laugh at how silly these points are?" This block of text indicates it is not my position. "I might very well play in the next noob game depending when it starts. I do however want it to be a fun experience for both of us. I had however been tossing up the idea just not playing until you stop playing in the noobs. I have been having trouble working out what I am going to do so that if you and I play in a game I don't get mislynched D2." This might look like a scum slip, but as i have not played before, it is what it says it it is a concern about what might happen in the future, that is similar to what happened in the past. I could go on like that, through the whole thing i dont think thats profitable use of time. " glhf I do however want it to be a fun experience for both of us. As a noob seeking to learn. " "BTW: This is how you execute someone. Might it hurt his feelings? " There were two things to say with those two sentences I am not sure Iike how they might be misinterpretted. In particular I have since learned it is best to identify the problem ,then use the majority judgment of your team mates to work it out. As an iterated prisoners dilemma my first play was too big. Do note i claimed i had never considered an iterated prisoners dilemma with progressively increasing stakes before. As I had never used such a thing in a time constrained framework. It ended with "glhf." While i made mistakes, I believe especially after my questioning of him that was interfered with by yam that oats is playing this game just fine. My original read on Oats was there was more than met the eye to his play, it was betrayed by the bravado used, when challenging someone(forget who kicks?) to explain why he had made his first feel based vote and did not need to justify it. | ||
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Thus i am at v o t e RAD F O S Yam f o s Kick | ||
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Good thing i didn't have enough time to show all my cards. Life is always hard to say, so many layers of lies. Who is which kind of dog bird dog and attack dog, also how do you call one off. These are the questions I am learning about, now. That will take some deep reading of what just looked like faffing around before now. It may at times look like I am doing nothing, and hence look suspiciously like lurking and not sticking my neck out or committing to things, it will be important when reading me to try to work out how to distinguish that from my self claimed meta. Which is that while I know bunches of stuff about science, math, and even games in general. This is my first game of mafia. Hence my learning curve is steep. Now that is probably cleared up my head not only in the game, it is only in this game. Who is which kind of dog, bird dog and attack dog, also how do you call one off. These are the questions I am learning about. As I said learn by doing. I also like real people need sleep intermittently and food. Also John J Francis nails it best for me when he said "Ben do you believe in God and the words that preachers pray I've seen myself in a still, calm pool and I've heard a donkey bray" So yeah being calm is how I hunt. There is risk it makes me unreadable or AFK. It is a risk that i willingly take this time, a problem arises if I instead think about next time we play, and what might happen unless I learn rather a lot first. And just because it is important that people know where my head is at because I do I would think rather unnervingly keep changing my meta during the game, in that i am getting better fast I hope. I have realised that a doc flipping on D2 has some choices. The largest threat looks to be the town leader, but how much does the doc know? The doc can leverage not disclosing what they know to make the scum decision harder. gads that deep no wonder I dint see it, apparently it was a derp moment. You do in truth have to have been in game to see stuff like that. OOps. Also you can HiDE a Cop, but if he randomly got nk's you loose all his knowledge. I believe that is some standard knowledge that i am aware of. However if you supposed I know all about such similar things you would be wrong. BTW if the following is an error, it is an error, i cant possibly be thinking you dont know this. As I understand it we have at most two lynches left. Summary ppl act Who What (result) 9 L Oats G (8 7:1) 8 nk Doc T (7 6:1) 7 --- NLynch (7 6:1) 7 nk VT (6 5:1) 6 L ?? 5 nk ?? 4 MLyLo ?? mmmm so much thinking. | ||
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it was my evaluation of where were were at overnight. not of todays plays. | ||
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On December 10 2012 10:18 yamato77 wrote: ##Vote Arnarnion Because scummy actions day 1 and day 2 at lynch. 2 confirmed town both suspicious of you before their NK. Do something that makes me think you're not scum. @Arnarnion I am having difficulty working out what happened Day 1 and Day 2. QUESTION Would you mind explaining to me a bit what you in particular found scummy on D1 and D2 at Lynch about Yamato77? Aside: I know you saying everything you know here in an open forum, definitely informs scum. I also know you don't know if I am scum pumping you for information. but as i hope i have said somewhere in my meta me asking you questions conveys at least as much about my intent, as your answers do about what you know. We can thus both aid town by making our intentions clearer. You may already know yours are to most people clear as you share more common ground with them. Help me be better town, or explain why you think I scum please... Would you mind explaining to me a bit what you in particular found scummy on D1 and D2 at Lynch about Yamato77? While waiting for how long, is unclear, I will proceed to see what questions i can think of to ask in order to confirm the town intentions of other people. | ||
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What kind of scummy actions on D1 and at the D2 lynch? previous derp post Fixed version. On December 10 2012 13:46 AxleGreaser wrote: @yamato77 I am having difficulty working out what happened Day 1 and Day 2. QUESTION Would you mind explaining to me a bit what you in particular found scummy on D1 and D2 at Lynch about Yamato77? Aside: I know you saying everything you know here in an open forum, definitely informs scum. I also know you don't know if I am scum pumping you for information. but as i hope i have said somewhere in my meta me asking you questions conveys at least as much about my intent, as your answers do about what you know. We can thus both aid town by making our intentions clearer. You may already know yours are to most people clear as you share more common ground with them. Help me be better town, or explain why you think I scum please... Would you mind explaining to me a bit what you in particular found scummy on D1 and D2 at Lynch about Yamato77? While waiting for how long, is unclear, I will proceed to see what questions i can think of to ask in order to confirm the town intentions of other people. | ||
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Yamato you voted for Arnarnion... How come? If you show say one post that made you feel some way at the times stated perhaps then I can see what you mean? On December 10 2012 14:51 AxleGreaser wrote: Just to be clear this question is to @yamato. I would have thought by now that a vote for someone would have some substance and thought behind it. please could you explain yours more clearly. What kind of scummy actions on D1 and at the D2 lynch? previous derp post Fixed version. | ||
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On December 10 2012 16:14 yamato77 wrote: I will answer that in the morning, Axle, in six hours or so I will be here in 6 hours or so too. ta. | ||
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onto to something at this point. + Show Spoiler + On December 04 2012 12:40 yamato77 wrote: EBWOP: Oh, you actually ARE avoiding me, cool. ##Vote AxleGreaser Would you care to either state what it was, or indicate you were mistaken? actually I am not sure I about the if you 'care to', please do one or the other. | ||
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My heads in the game, just this game, now I want to see if yours is. On December 04 2012 14:52 Oatsmaster wrote: What. Axle stop having a pity party and just play to the best of your ability. Read the thread, form opinions, ask questions, make a case, pressure people. Explain your scumread on yamato more. Trust is a two way street after all. | ||
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On December 10 2012 22:40 yamato77 wrote: I am hostile. I don't trust any of you but Jidol at the moment and all of you lurk a lot and don't ever push your reads. if you disagree come up with a better target with a more convincing case. if you can't do that and you still disagree you are hurting town's chances by causing no lynches which are bad trades because we 100% lose a town player every night. when I get home from this hell I call work I will make my case on Arn. You're free to disagree but you better do something productive then. Yamato. It is and was good you were hostile, that is a good town thing to do, it is also necessary I thought to show that I too simply did not easily trust, that as you look at me I look back at you. Crap can happen and voices can whisper in your ears, unless you are inherently hostile to being told what to do, then you are a risk to town. That I am not. It was however necessary for you to know the game I have got if called for. I do agree that although i found what look like scum slips from you early in the play, I will not make case with those as they appear to have been based on false premises. That was easy, and probably even reasonable to do. Are you here Yam Id like to chat about the time I was conversing with Oats. | ||
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On December 10 2012 22:50 yamato77 wrote: Hell Axle is better than you, Rad, and Arn combined in the past two days. I may have been a dick to him day 1/night 1 but I think he has his shit together right now. While it is nice of you to say that Yamato, I know what I am. It make me uneasy when other people try to tell me. Its all Ok, Like I just said, I regard D1 as necessary learning curve for me. | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129013 | ||
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On December 10 2012 23:13 yamato77 wrote: No I'm saying that you were unclear as to who you were talking to and talking about. several times oats responded to posts you made that were referencing another person. Also you talked about the last NMM a lot which made it more confusing. @Yamato77 Who did you just say that too? There was mainly just two of us in the thread at that time and so I did not see the need to type his name in each post. So you were confused by the process yes? | ||
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On December 10 2012 23:17 AxleGreaser wrote: @Yamato77 Who did you just say that too? There was mainly just two of us in the thread at that time and so I did not see the need to type his name in each post. So you were confused by the process yes? The question is did you understand what i was trying to get out of oats? | ||
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That question does not look hard to me? Is it hard for you? | ||
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Where did you go? | ||
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Oh you are avoiding me. BTW glhf finding where I said why I did that. ##VOTE Yamato77 | ||
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If there is anyone else here we could consider lots of things, and take up space if that is a wise course to make sure we have not overlooked anyone. I am convinced my other scummy suspects, would not be elevated higher than Yam. Or i could just wait...... Yam where did you go? | ||
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and do you mean now, or is patience a virute | ||
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Wasn't I someone with an intent to do stuff? | ||
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On December 10 2012 23:44 yamato77 wrote: Because it was going nowhere. He could not understand you or at least acted like he couldn't and I tried to make your posting more effective by pointing out what he kept getting confused by. He did not undertsand what I said first, after that he seemed to have no problem How did this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129692 "I tried to make your posting more effective by pointing out what he kept getting confused by" Why choose to suddenly answer things put by kickstart? | ||
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On December 10 2012 23:49 yamato77 wrote: By the way, I already know this is your scum read on me so cut to the chase and make your point. My point is that when other town players are doing things with intent to hunt scum, other town players stand back and watch. Often not being directly involved gives you the most accurate insights. It is scum that try to direct how other hunt scum. Is that not your understanding? In the end Oats flipped scum, as scum you knew that, and perhaps you id not know what I was looking for, but hat i was proceeding with intent was enough for you to want to interfere. Thats a strong scum tell for me. | ||
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On December 10 2012 23:54 AxleGreaser wrote: My point is that when other town players are doing things with intent to hunt scum, other town players stand back and watch. Often not being directly involved gives you the most accurate insights. It is scum that try to direct how other hunt scum. Is that not your understanding? In the end Oats flipped scum, as scum you knew that, and perhaps you id not know what I was looking for, but hat i was proceeding with intent was enough for you to want to interfere. Thats a strong scum tell for me. A final question for you how would analyse this case against you Does it look bad for you? | ||
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On December 10 2012 23:55 yamato77 wrote: I fail to see how me posting that is scum motivated based solely on your perspective on the timing of the post. There were several posts in the sequence, you claimed they had an intent I do not see that when i read the actual posts. | ||
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Do you remember why you asked this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17179532 | ||
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Have you noticed that too? | ||
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It is easy to get tunnel visioned. I will need to read this thread again | ||
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Also @Arnarnion if you could tell me when you would next be around that would be helpful. Also if anyone wont be here near lynch tomorrow could you tell me it may be important. | ||
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On December 11 2012 18:51 yamato77 wrote: How about you participate in the game the rest of us are having instead of existing in your own bubble? Thank you for your advice but my filter is quite long enough. I have needed to think. I now hve profitable plan to be st use my time between now and tomorrows lynch. As I asked will you be here near the end I think my last questions would be to you? BTW I will now have read of what was achieved while i was thinking and sleeping. | ||
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@Rad If you are around I would like to talk to you. If you turn up and I am not here please say when you will be around. | ||
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Yam has already made a case on Arnarnion here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17201753 it is based on feels of the game I dont have. So I cant comment or just sheep that unless I find my own evidence. If you have the experience to know thats a valid argument then give it whatever weight it is due. I deal in rougher measures. part of the The itchyness that made me move my vote of Rad without counting properly what that meant, was partly mistakenly becoming more convinced Yamato was scum and partly feeling something was wrong. Oats had been a noiser player thus I would have expected it most likely for the other scum to hide in the other big puddle. The quiet people. Although both Arnarnion and Silencia are quiet, jidolboy is too but he has claimed. As you are all good, players if one of you was actually a named townie, or a blue role you would have counter claimed we throw you both under buses, yay team. As I am a careful player, I too have checked what I am several times, and I have no evidence I am not just what I appear to be, a town player. I may once have said playa before I realised just how hard language is read around here. Stuff happens,rocks fall. So lets assume for now jidolboy Cant be Scum or someone Would have counter claimed.?? An association case. Arnarnion and Oats. In my minimal knowledge a pair of Scum players have strong tendency to be in different pools of suspsects. One will be noisier, active and take risks hoping to get enough time to let the thrid one make it thorugh to a 3 man LyLo They will also want to pick off the two blue roles. Thus with Oats as one scum I would expect the other to be one of, Sylencia, Arnarnion, jidolboy(Confiremd Town) The question is which? | ||
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Oats was asked question sevral times http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17124632 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17124724 Arnion came in between them, when the silence was getting loud. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17124708 That could be chance.. So we well I did until i drifted off. | ||
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Here Arnarnion, asks about a question Oats asked and was answered. I dont find the question, anywhere. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17130177 Arnion then asks for a list of scum reads from Oats. I was going to go through and look for how often which people gave lists but I got too tired to do that kind of work I was meant to get up hours ago. | ||
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The opening phrases of alarge sample of arns posts all in one place Arnarnion's filter is short it does not take long to see "Alright" "Yam and Rad. You guys make good points," "That is fair Kick, but we still haven't heard a thing from Sylencia yet" "CC, hard to say, but based off of what I saw" "Oats I have a question for you, isn't Kick's behavior right now" "Then what about Yam pursuing a line of questions on Axle is scummy?" "Also Oats, I would be inclined to agree, since his jump on you last game" "Sorry if I'm off base right now man, but I'm looking at Kick, his wishy washy approach on Yam Man has me pretty uneasy. " "CC I think the scum agenda comes not just from his initial FoS, but his behavior afterwards." which is to {<<<< dunno even why I wrote that. Apparently i thought it was important so I leave it } "CC, do YOU have any reads on Kick?" "God damn, I feel like a broken record, but jidol, what is your stance? Do you have any reads on Kick or Oats?" What is the intent of bringing the case? WHen I do it is to get the target to respond "cc I was kinda vocal for awhile now that I've thought Kick has been suspect, and I would also appreciate if you would address the problems in the case as you see it, instead of just dismissing it." Wel the fighting didnt go dont as desired. (Push me pull you on Kick) "As you can see as of right now I'm not voting for anyone. While I am less convinced than I was that Kick is scum, I'm also not ready to say that that makes Oats scum. The fight that broke out between them seems more of a town on town altercation to me." tries to divert to a lurker lynch "....So I'm going to #---- #Vote: Sylencia" ##Vote @Arnarnion | ||
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Today you are going to Vote for either I or Arnion or you make up your own minds on a third. Tomorrow another two will be chosen between and then you win or lose. I have a third . I really feel that shooting Kick could have made me focus on Yam and Rad. The were two lynches providing I dont get lynched there is enough time. But why wont I get Lynched, merely becuasse I know I am town is not enough other people must know that too. But if I didnt consider that that would be a good sucker bait story. I was wrong there were 3 lynches I just cant count. Intuition caused me to swap votes without even counting properly. Now theres a derp... With me its not turtles but derp moments all the way down. What on earth do we do with two Lynches, What do I do, I have to find the one, or do I? What if I could target one, create a real argument that I ought get lynched first as that might well provide more information, then the rest could choose with more wisdom tomorrow!! Hey look Right solution wrong problem? maybe. Actually perhaps I was mant to get here by lynching the wrong person yesterday... weee splat on face again. Good thing I dont mind. This is how I learn. Never mind whats that itchy feeling I have in the back of my head. Its Arnarnion. Am I suffering conformation bias becuase I am not allowed to suspect Arnarnion becuase of out of game stuff? The roles will have been chosen randomly, except I am still alittle uneasy about the host. I must I have been told trust my feel reads more. What if there is something i dont know about myself that I will only find out if I go under a bus. hey that could have worked with 3 lynches if I had got here yesterday. Oh well lets make it work with two. I just have to go under the bus first! | ||
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if the arnion vote seemed to hold water than i was going to argue that if Arn didnt turn up red then, I was tomorrows best lynch without question. if it was indeed without question then I ought get lynched today. Why? Well if lynching me today turns up more infortion it could have led to a better informed lynch tomorrow. weird logic but I think its correct that that would have been better. | ||
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Id like the rest of you to consider only yourselves as you have known one another longest. Does your play within, just this game, seem like it is pro town play. Your play styles to me appear to run in pairs, I could identify the pairs, but that leaves me without a pair, that is of course unless it is the host. There were times when i was put under a microscope, I reacted badly to that Indeed I got to believing they were the problem. I then realized (not when I changed my vote (that was luck) but shortly after) The people doing that are thus pro town. I have also have pro town read on Sylencia. jidolboy has a claimed role and there are no counter claims. and then there is me... as in my first post and explained here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17135766 I do indeed check every bodies motives. Even my own. This is a thing. Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing. That means i must play to win. When playing this game you cant choose a style of play that is optimal for whatever team you are on that round, you must choose style of play that works in the long run for which ever one you play this time. Now if the host is the matching pair to me and it is lying to me, then you have problem. So if this was a few hours ago I would have suggested lynch me first that is for me playing to win. Even now I cant say I am more suspicious of any player in the game than the host. Oh and BTW me pointing me like that, doesn't make me a less useful lynch target at all. | ||
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##FOS The host As such I am going to reread some rules.... and see just how far they could be stretched by a host with an evil sense of humor. | ||
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On December 12 2012 10:06 Sylencia wrote: Yep, pretty sure yamato is the last scum we are looking for. Unfortunately he is my top town read. | ||
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Host are you outside the game? or are you a player too? | ||
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Normally you do don't you? Are you the host Lurking? or just got no voice at all. If you are a playa, can you take any actions in this game at all? Please reply when you have time, Id like to ask you some questions about the rules of this game that You made? | ||
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trusting my best feel reads. here they are if I get nkd tonight try this out tomorrow try 'voting to lynch the host' and see if he claims it is against the rules. That will teach him for having no voice and being the ultimate lurker SK. if I dont get nkd tonight but someone else does. I suggest those who are left try 'voting to lynch' the host and see if he claims it is against the rules. if I no one gets nkd tonight. then we can no lynch tomorrow if I no one gets nkd again then we can no lynch again That would be optimal play for the host BTW. yeah host never stopped wondering about you never will that how you get kept in check. Lastly if somehow you get to day when there are only two players left in the game but somehow its not over definitely Lynch the host. Even if he suddenly stops lurking. I know that may appear that it doesnt make sense but does it at least parse ? paranoia mafia indeed. | ||
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On December 12 2012 12:27 AxleGreaser wrote: Oh and while i am sure i cant get mod killed for what i am doing. Especially unceremoniously. Trusting my best feel reads. here they are Apart from the first lynch, where you guys lynched a player for what you regarded as scum play. But at that time I couldn't really see it although i did try hard as i knew how to find out. You are however correct, you cant always stand back, I have looked for scum nearly got rad lynched then changed my mind onto Yam, but then again reinterpreted it all again and found the pattern of town motivation there too. They both tried to find out if I was town. That is a town thing to do. At first I didn't understand and thought it was scum play. Problem is they cant both be scum so one of them must have been making it as a town play and the best person, to suspect the other as a buddy is the one being buddied. So unless they want to accuse one another I don't. If I get nk'd tonight try this out tomorrow try 'voting to lynch Ghost_403' and see if he claims it is against the rules. That will teach him for having no voice and being the ultimate lurker SK. if I don't get nk'd tonight but someone else does. I suggest those who are left try 'voting to lynch Ghost_403' and see if he claims it is against the rules. I will try that first if you like. (it has occurred to me it may be against the rules for me to vote for him) If I try voting for him and it is against someone else will need to try and see if it against the rules for them too. if I no one gets nkd tonight. then we can no lynch tomorrow if I no one gets nkd again then we can no lynch again That would be optimal play for the host BTW..... yeah host never stopped wondering about you never will that is how you get kept in check. Lastly if somehow you get to a day when there are only two players left in the game but somehow its still not over definitely Lynch the host. Even if he suddenly stops lurking. I know that may appear that it doesnt make sense but does it at least parse ? paranoia mafia indeed. Assuming we get to tomorrow but some active 'agent' executes another person tonight and it is not me that gets nk'd. Another option is you/me/we cant ever lynch the host, and that your only option to stop the scum plan is to lynch me. I am good with that. If it is the case that we cant vote for the host, then the best other lynch, not because I am not town, I do keep checking that PM. If you cant lynch the host, then either there is no way to win. or the only way to win is for you guys to lynch me. I will vote first on that one. As the case I am arguing is against the host, and i am effectively rebelling against his evil plan for this game. I would like to choose an earlier time for my personal deadline, then go AFK, to be clear i mean it. | ||
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The Hosts are not a part of the game. We are here to facilitate others in playing the game. That is our sole purpose and motivation. Votes for the hosts are meaningless. Votes for deceased players are meaningless. [/QUOTE] Cool. | ||
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Did people have a feeling, that they have need to explain, i had one of the two special roles Day 1? | ||
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On December 12 2012 13:24 AxleGreaser wrote: I have question. Which I need mutliple answers too. Did people have a feeling, that they have >>>>NO<<<< need to explain, i had one of the two special roles Day 1? Sorry left a really important word out, as that is literally what I meant to say. | ||
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But unless the host is also a player in the game then it could well be the wrong one @Yam are you here, I want to ask a question about what you believe has happened. | ||
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On December 09 2012 10:15 ghost_403 wrote: End of Day 2 ![[image loading]](http://www.crawlofthedead.com/images/uploads/legozombies.jpg) Figure NaN. Bzzzzzttt MALFUNCTION. {No flavor because I wrote it for a lynch that didn't happen }No one was lynched! Night 2 has begun! You have 24 hours to submit any actions you may have to all of the hosts. Note that there are no clues this game. Any names used above are purely for flavor. The host appears unwillingly answer questions in green, perhaps he is just AFK. I am going AFK too for while I need a nap. I am going to see if i can make up a feel read for the missing flavor text for the no lynch. | ||
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As it is not here our turn to act. When to STFU is the lesson learned for me this game. So if I am not long for this small world, remember it is only a game, even if it is a red queen one. Town glhf | ||
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Or perhaps we should just wait the night out and see if we are all now on the same page, before saying more. One of us townies will die tonight, but even so I still think town can win, it is what i am honestly working towards even if my ways seems strange at first, as it Was my first time playing this game. As it is not here in this small game our turn to act. When to STFU is the lesson learned for me in this small game. So if I am not long for this smaller world, remember this is only a small game, this game is fun and nice relief from other less funny games, even in the Larger sense when considering mafia games across many rounds that game tends to be tends to be a red queen one. I do know who I am 100%, same as when I came in the door, just which a bunch more skill. Hopefully whoever is left will lynch the right person tomorrow whoever that needs to be. Town GLHF | ||
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The extra information since I last read the thread has not made much difference except now it feels too easy again :/ | ||
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I understand two way conversations I can feel when people deflect. So for instance with you i would discuss some _very_ early events with Yam, and an exchange I had with Rad. The one piece of outside knowledge i would seek is, was that in your current view due to misunderstandings back then. Basically you get to focus me on or off some areas of the thread. That says things about you and lets me draw firmer conclusions about them. On the other if its what people want i can just Vote for my top read, and we see what happens. | ||
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I do have lots and lots of reads just some of them have been very confusing, and some very wrong. Anyway I will wait a bit then go to bed for 8 or 10 hrs. | ||
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I am not entirely clear of the status of that vote of mine but, as everyone has cast a vote, it is also possibly the last Vote to be cast, on Yam, or the one that says no not Yam. I will give at least some reasons for it. If more are needed I am sure I can give some but if I paint the whole picture, how do you know what you are seeing is real. Confirmation bias is a thing, which is why voting last I give my reasons first. The cause for the delay is as this is my first game, and I have learned rather a lot, I have had to go back and really read all of this game and the last part of the last game to see what really happened as opposed to the small glimmering I had at any other time when I read them. Consciously I missed rather a lot of the details, the first time through, although I think a number of my decisions were guided, by stuff I didn't even know I had seen. | ||
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Yam I having difficulty reconciling your earlier post + Show Spoiler + On December 13 2012 10:36 yamato77 wrote: the only possibilities for the last scum are rad or axle IMO Getting a lynch on rad is impossible even if syl believed me unless somehow axle followed our vote by blind luck Lynching Axle is a possibility but also the best play for Rad if he is scum because it is Mylo. Lynching him is a coin flip completely and town again wins or loses on basically blind luck. No Lynch looks like an option but only helps if Axle is actually the last scum and he kills me or rad, which a good scum player would never do because you want to kill the least controversial player, not one of the most. So basically either rad is scum and wins the game right now or he is town and we lynch Axle. # --- #Vote Axlegreaser # --- #Vote Axlegreaser with this. On December 14 2012 16:18 yamato77 wrote: axle if you vote for rad I will vote for him but otherwise you should just vote for me and end this game. If you were voting for me because you thought I was one of the two most likely people to be scum why are you now, talking to me about not voting for you when i have not even done that yet? Do you know something I don't? Wouldn't it be more profitable to talk to Rad or Syl? or present reasons why you think other people should vote for you top scum read instead? | ||
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it is still quite while to days end, but that is fairly hefty nail unless I misunderstood something. | ||
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was going on for sure. As it happened relatively recently you should know why too. On December 14 2012 19:02 AxleGreaser wrote: If you think rad is most likely to be scum why did you vote for me? | ||
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AxleGreaser
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+ Show Spoiler + There was point back there where I showed clear intent. What for should not matter, clearly (while I was doing it) I was after something. if you were interested in finding out if I was scum, I would suggest watching and then when it is over asking questions. If I am scum letting me go on will just dig the hole if there is one deeper, if it is misunderstanding there will eventually be so much consistent intent that when explained it will be clear. The observed sequence + Show Spoiler + That starts here Where Yamato observes enough of “something” to unvote me. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17128889 This has clear directed question about what oats intentions are when helping a player. Clearly I think scum hunting related. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17128988 Yamato chucks this in. {once} + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129071 if he is scum hunting on topic that interests him why just do that? If that interesting perhaps he ought look at it. He says he Gonna hafta.. I dont remember the result. Oats accepts that life line and changes topics. I have intent and go on , and on. Again Yamato chucks this in. {twice} + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129619 Yam : "But kick's difference I think could be meaningful. I'm not entirely sure." If he did what he said he might find out. To me the clear intent was to get me to go chase this bone instead. Again Yamato chucks this in. {three times} + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129692 It is big wall of text post it is not like he just wrote it. Clearly it ought have some intention as effort went into it why now? Is it because the first two attempts at distracting from the scum buddy failed? Notice that it ends A lot of your posting this game has been about "this looks suspicious" or something of that nature. Everything can "look suspicious" from a town POV, but you feel the need to say it a lot. Why? Eventually here I look like I just wander aimlessly off. (remember at that times oats was not confirmed scum) + Show Spoiler + I think i will find if I squeeze hard enough people may well give off scum tell, if I find out what i want and they don't know what that is, and they are scum I expect to notice their behavior change. In the face of a new or perceived threat. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On December 04 2012 22:01 yamato77 wrote: Kick is playing different from last game. Gonna have to read his filter from Mario Mini. While that is an interesting observation if it is true. What did Yam intend to happen next and why? I believe he hoped i would go do that rather than continue to question Oats. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129692 + Show Spoiler + My strategy this game is far more aggressive than it was the previous game at the beginning. If I am town, my main objective day 1, especially early, is to provoke discussion and responses. The more information I can garner from people, the stronger my reads on them can become. I know I do keep going down the road, but "If I am town," is an interesting thing for someone who is town to say. "Up to that point, only Axle had seemed to willingly ignore me so I went after him. People that don't want to give up information are either scum or blue, because they both have something to hide." Why think about hunting blue? "What my focus now has become is why you have started to throw suspicion around on players who are looking into people's play early." Does Yamato thinks there is special reason why people should not examine peoples early play? | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
Id also like to know why Syl said this... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17222524 "You know I won't vote Rad, " | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On December 15 2012 00:14 Rad wrote: Axle, please just leave your question for me and I'll respond. I, again, have to work all day, pretty much up until close to the lynch time. If you just leave me your question I'll get back to it as soon as I can, and I promise I'll answer it well before deadline, but you can't expect us both to be on at the same time to have some sort of 1 on 1 back and forth. It's just not going to happen because of my availability (or lack there of) during my work day. It took me a while but I answered my questions for myself. The most recent problem was post where you seemed to know who would get nk'd. I think I understand what you were thinking when you said that now. So no I now cant see myself voting for anyone except Yam. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
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