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@Kicks Would you care to comment on these decisions that you made?
Lots of questions inside the spoilers.
In Kicks case:
A thing I will find convincing is emotional plays.
In particular (I believe)
if he is scum then early on, he will feel confident, as he has more knowledge than town
if he is town then early on he will, be more tentative, probing looking for knowledge and information
Thus i will look early on where for the tells will be strongest.
Now to see which fits.
I really should not do this one, because it is an OMGUS, but it does?
It is a risk for me, as I am making case on a point where he voted on me. (meh)
+ Show Spoiler +On December 04 2012 11:17 Kickstart wrote:
Yamato has it pretty much right. I have a bad habit of going after things which I deem dumb, but dumb doesn't mean scum. Less than 2 hours later. On December 05 2012 13:50 Kickstart wrote:
##AxleGreaser
Because dumb. If you didn't vote because you think I am scum why did you vote?
When you are scum you can go after anything you do not understand, as such you will scatter gun these "vote because its dumb tells". They will get you dead fast. I would hope that as town he would not do this. Use your own judgement.
If you think he would do that even if town, then it is a null tell.
being wrong about what to do when, is one thing, but when it contradicts what you did 1.5 hrs earlier, without you even saying your other reason went away.
That is also peculiar, but perhaps also a null tell, do you believe Kicks would do that as even as town?
+ Show Spoiler +When this happened, which is such justified pressure that is applied and it makes me think Yamato is a bit more town. How does Kicks conclude the opposite? Might it be because he knows * I am town and if I get lynched he can then attack Yamato over it and gain cred? * I am scum and hes trying to protect me? * what Yamato is doing is wrong, and Kicks knows Yamato should know better? * he is sad he voted for me because I am Because dumb? It is because he is [red]scum[red] I cant make another story fit. Can you? yamato77 should pressure me for that, at that time. On December 04 2012 12:40 yamato77 wrote:
EBWOP: Oh, you actually ARE avoiding me, cool.
##Vote AxleGreaser A scum player who already knows what I am may not even know why it was done. Also wont care. Kicks though is not suspicious of me leaving, why not? On December 04 2012 12:45 Kickstart wrote:
##FoS yamato
Badgering people then voting them when they ignore his badgering He didn't badger, I left.
Ok so lets assume that just an error and he really believe that Yamoto just gave of scum tell.
What does Kicks Do? And why?
Time line link here
Does he wait to see if anything will be said in response to pressure. No
Then follow up with more?
There is no desire to see if information is now forthcoming.
+ Show Spoiler +meta + Show Spoiler + (yeah its suck eggs material)
Please note if I am pressuring someone, I usually don't want help.
If you are pressuring someone, I will try not to get involved.
I usually learn just as much or more about the intentions of the person asking the questions as the one answering them.
Instead he immediately emotionally appeals to all around hey come help me lynch this guy? How does he know he has the right guy? And does he even care? On December 04 2012 12:47 Kickstart wrote:
I may be too early to jump the gun on thinking yamato is being scummy, but I haven't liked his incessant policy talk and now he just jumps on someone who he is badgering. Thoughts everyone? Well no he jumped on me for going away, when being questioned. And an hour an half before that I was too dumb to live? I don't think my play got much smarter in between. He then says Thoughts everyone?which AFAIK, is pretty much a scum claim. Scum hunting is focussed process whereby you find out why people do things. Asking for whatever random thoughts other people have, is just going to make noise. Worse it gives scum the opportunity to participate, without having to initiate their own lines of inquiry. Doing that is wanting to work together, make friends, with just anyone at all. Town does not do that. Even a nervous town will be worried about making friends with a scum, and then getting lynched for it.
##unVOTE NoLynch
We now in my view have viable D1 lynch based on what I wrote. I am now convinced this is not the town I deserved it has at least 1 scum in it. Don't worry host I still <3 <3 <3. I am nice gentle soul.
##VOTE Kicks
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ooops. The post above implies kicks voted on Yam for Voting me,
after himself voting on me. I the order wrong.
I am still happy with the Vote on Kicks.
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Well if I am allowed to it was always my preferred option.
##unvote Kicks
##vote NoLynch
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Oh and BTW #*#fos everyone... except the host, I will go see I can find better Lynch candidate.
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Ok this time I think have solved the game theory for everybodies win condition.
Especially the games.
Although two or three will probably take one for the team. It is unimportant who.
The problem was before I did not see it as my place to do that. Now I see
all I had to do was put the left over bits that I had not explained together.
but I must not give the game away so first so You know who I am.
I must first do no harm
Playing this game is about as bizzare as playing
illuminati
This game has gotten really confusing, so my intention is to build a case based on the early play
where the game seemed to make a little more sense to me as a game of Mafia.
## unvote
## vote NoLynch
Then having made that case I will
vote with the courage of my convictions that this time I have solved the game.
It is possible I will get night killed, it is even possible that by being a good
townie making my case voting it and sticking to it, that I will raise so much suspicion
that I will get Lynched.
All risks I am prepared to take.
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I have question.
If I vote do people want to see the argument or just the vote?
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 06 2012 11:04 Rad wrote:
@Axle
Your previous vote was on Kick. Do you consider him confirmed town after the oats flip? When can we expect you to reveal your master plan?
I did have a plan then it changed.
Nothing confirms town in perpetuity. Especially by the actions of another 'scum'.
Any action can be scum at some level of misdirect.
Any action can be town at some level of WTF is happening man.
I was going to say more things earlier, I think I started but was then stopped.
because although I didn't get a read but I got a feel the wind changed direction.
Anytime I said anything, it made shit worse. doh. well yeah. doh. That's the door I came in through.
Hence this time I asked before posting the argument.
Not a joke but C&C alert
+ Show Spoiler +
The trouble with trying to be a fireman when you are not,
is that if you have a great big powerful hose
but in truth you have zero actual wisdom born from experience
all you wind up doing is waving it around like a dick
and pissing in all the wrong peoples pockets.
Having realised that, as I knew I was town, and should also flip town as well I STFU.
Yeah I saw that coming too. Although, perhaps despite what I think I know, I will flip scum too.
Yeah that it be cool game too. All townies as far as they know but N of them will actually flip scum.
If that is the game the I am the most likely (obvious actually) to be the one that flips scum.
I believe I still have considerable time to read and think about the decision
but unless I am greatly mistaken. Vote Nolynch was not really meant to be an option
and it *is* just a way to lurky. Not an action.
the only other option I currently considering is Vote AxleGreaser.
When I first analysed the game it was the only one on the table when I realised no lynch
was similar in effect but let everybody who was town live, which with in this game is a better
win for this round.
In the context of the larger game, I suspect Vote Axlegreaser has the pro town
beneficial ramifications. To be sure that will take me some hours to find it all again.
but that was the feel from last time I read the internet.
The reasoning for that is I know my actions raised suspicion and hence confusion
With 1 possible scum kill the first day, we have lots of time up our sleeves in this game
So by me Voting me, and flipping Green(red?), I get to be confirmed town, or (deluded town).
That will give town more information, with which they can then go after any scum if any that are left.
Then you guys can go back to looking for scum, and i can go back to what I do best
watch read, laugh, then read the entire internet because it is hilliarious.
Do note if I should do my research first i have not. That is just a logical analysis of the
current end game problem.
At this point that is wishy washy and has not yet voted AxleGreaser.
if that is your problem with it :| please
as I will go check stuff
When it all checks out, if there are no questions I will act.
yeah yeah promises promises are scum tell.
but already i think you have found that i am such an unusual beast that a problem you thought
had two answers had 3.
by putting it out there I check if I am now down to those two options.
(I have more options but i am pretty sure they are not the right way out)
Fundamentally my analysis is my choices are vote for me,
or vote for anyone else on whom my best reads are all equal but stronger players.
That looks like exactly two choices. If there are exactly two choices now then the decision is easy.
Loose the weakest Link.
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EBWOP
Especially lose the link not wearing a firemans hat.
That would be true even if it thought it was not the weakest.
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So now do you need to go spend few hours validating it then vote.
Or is that as bullet proof as it feels.
Would you for instance like me to tell you why I wont vote for an argument you care to make or link to.
BTW if it includes in game actions, in this game I reject your argument on the grounds
I know you can BS me into any wrong move like that.
This is after all in truth the first game of mafia I ever remember playing as stated.
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EBWOP ooops wrong pronoun.
So now do I need to go spend few hours validating it then I vote.
Or is that as bullet proof as it feels.
Would you for instance like me to tell you why I wont vote for an argument you care to make or link to.
BTW if it includes in game actions, in this game I reject your argument on the grounds
I know you can BS me into any wrong move like that.
This is after all in truth the first game of mafia I ever remember playing as stated.
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going AFK for a while to financial matters and food etc.
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Actually very seriously which is why I have felt so stressed.
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Do you have any question you wish to ask me
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@yamato77 Id like to chat
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@yamato77
When I was questioning Oats about Why scum and Town would do things
did you find those questions interesting?
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@yamato77 Oh and are you going to be here for a while?
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Case on Yamato77
Basis interference with question of Oats, when he now says
I think they are probably good questions to have the answers to.
I mean, that is the point of this entire game.
You have to be able to discern what is scum play and what is town play.
Why wasn't he listening to the answers when he was there, and why post other stuff in the middle of it.
What was the purpose of the other stuff?
Would you have done that, and do you think he would if he was town?
Starting here
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17128988
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129392
I then proceed to question him for about 2 hours
(Why is no longer important, now that he has flipped red.)
Why did Yamato repeatedly interrupt this?
+ Show Spoiler +
On December 04 2012 22:01 yamato77 wrote:
Kick is playing different from last game. Gonna have to read his filter from Mario Mini.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 04 2012 23:33 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 22:05 Oatsmaster wrote:
I could say that about you too
I agree with CC in the last game, meta over 2-3 games is not really identifiable though :/
I think we should scumhunt using more normal scumhunting methods. Yeah, I know you could say that about me. I have almost certainly played completely different from last game. But kick's difference I think could be meaningful. I'm not entirely sure.
Why choose now to reply to this challenge to Yam, if he knows hes town
why not just see if these questions of mine turns out a better alternative?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129692
Isn't this promoting confusion?
and again .... btw I have been talking to him for a some time hadn't you noticed?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129752
and again
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17130028
Here I finish rather pleasantly an innocuously.
The question is where does the now known to scum rabbit run?
+ Show Spoiler +On December 05 2012 00:46 Oatsmaster wrote:
Umm if your criteria for finding scum is how they scumhunt then ok.....
Hey yamato, do you have any reads?
Aside
+ Show Spoiler + Umm if your criteria for finding scum is how they scumhunt then ok..... And it is scum do things such as help people, to buddy up to them, help them do less useful things, and to gain sway and influence over emotional decisions town do things such as help people, who have just been squitted to recover afterwards, so they can be active again. Indeed Oats original post this one can be justified by town motivation http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=292&topic_id=385389It did indeed help me. Ta.
##Vote Yamato
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UBER EBWOP
Case on Yamato77
Basis: interference with my questioning of Oats, when he now says of that questioning
I think they are probably good questions to have the answers to.
I mean, that is the point of this entire game.
You have to be able to discern what is scum play and what is town play.
Why wasn't he listening to the answers when he was there, and why post other stuff in the middle of it?
What was the purpose of the other stuff?
Would you have done that, and do you think he would if he was town?
Starting here I was asking Oats a long series of questions
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17128988
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129392
I then proceed to question him for about 2 hours
(Why is no longer important, now that he has flipped red.)
Why did Yamato repeatedly interrupt this?
Once might be an error, repeatedly is a pattern.
+ Show Spoiler +
On December 04 2012 22:01 yamato77 wrote:
Kick is playing different from last game. Gonna have to read his filter from Mario Mini.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 04 2012 23:33 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 22:05 Oatsmaster wrote:
I could say that about you too
I agree with CC in the last game, meta over 2-3 games is not really identifiable though :/
I think we should scumhunt using more normal scumhunting methods. Yeah, I know you could say that about me. I have almost certainly played completely different from last game. But kick's difference I think could be meaningful. I'm not entirely sure.
Why choose now to reply to this challenge to Yam, if he knows hes town
why not just see if these questions of mine turns out a better alternative?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129692
Isn't this promoting confusion?
and again .... btw I have been talking to him for a some time hadn't you noticed?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17129752
and again
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17130028
Here I finish rather pleasantly an innocuously.
The question is where does the now known to scum rabbit run?
+ Show Spoiler +On December 05 2012 00:46 Oatsmaster wrote:
Umm if your criteria for finding scum is how they scumhunt then ok.....
Hey yamato, do you have any reads?
An Aside
+ Show Spoiler +Oats says: Umm if your criteria for finding scum is how they scumhunt then ok..... And it is scum do things such as help people, to buddy up to them, help them do less useful things, and to gain sway and influence over emotional decisions town do things such as help people, who have just been squitted to recover afterwards, so they can be active again. Indeed Oats original post this one can be justified by town motivation http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=292&topic_id=385389It did indeed help me. Ta.
##Vote Yamato
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EPT
