Chrono Trigger Mafia - Page 11
Forum Index > TL Mafia |
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
| ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
I am posting this case mainly to show people that there is a very strong argument to be had for Sand being scum, despite everyone just brushing it off as "lurker lynch votes" Sandroba is scum. First of, if you haven't read my case from D1 yet, please do so now: + Show Spoiler + On November 23 2012 03:09 Clarity_nl wrote: Sandroba. Why are people voting for this guy? Let us work our way backwards in his filter, starting from this post, where he advocates against electing Kita because Kita has not provided his reads or opinions on subjects being discussed. The first mention of any kind of read he has (remember, we're working backwards), it's on me, he found me scum but now he doesn't know. Null. Why did he used to find me scum? Not sure, the only other mention of me is the reason he had to make the above post, that mention being this: So we never got to know why I was scum to him, but that's okay because he's no longer sure, right? I don't think so. To me this seems like jumping on the (at the time) easy "lynch" I'd make. But then backing off because it was hard to pin me on something. Next up, we have this: I'm fairly certain he's town, is his entire read. Only when asked does he explain why. This boils down to a meta read. If you take away the meta, all that is left is him saying: "He said he'd be lazy but he isn't" Meta reads aren't always bad, of course, but it should never be the crux of your argument unless someone is WAY off their town meta. "I don't know, you're null. Here's a list of slight townreads with no explanation." Moving further back. His very first strong read, yet somehow it is much earlier in the thread than the stuff covered above. This post is referring to Dieno. There's not much reasoning to it, the only being that scum wouldn't enter into the game like that. I think this is fair and not alignment indicative, but since we're pointing out all the reads I think it's only fair to point out his only strong read thus far. This is also where the reads end, because we are in the early earlygame at this point. There is some setup speculation, which makes sense given we're in a heavily themed game. My point to all of this, is this: Sand has not had any strong reads, and the reads he has had have had bad or no reasoning. He's is currently trying to get elected, and has had some backing. Why are people not demanding stronger reads from him? Especially when he is demanding them from others? Why is sand not working harder at making reads, when he is running for the election? Wanting to get elected is not alignment indicative. His reads or logic isn't alignment indicative. Why does he not look/try to look townie when he is running for the election? In my eyes, this makes him badly played scum or a third party role because a townie who is running for election would be trying harder to get elected, or at the very least to get strong reads out there. In this case, I clearly show that Sand is not transparent. This in itself is fine, Syllo was not transparent and people voted for him. But note the very first quote in my case, he says Kita is not being transparent enough, not giving out enough reads etc. After a grand total of 1 strong read, a read that many before him had made, he proclaims that others should be more transparent and share more reads. Even if we accept that he is just being a hypocrit, after this post he still does not share reads or thoughts. Sand comes out of the gate by saying he is running for the election, he is open, transparent and willing to listen to others: On November 21 2012 11:17 sandroba wrote: I hereby declare I want to lead you simpletons to victory. My party selection will be as following: I will choose 3 of the less known players who I read as town at the end of the day to compose the party. The reasoning is that this mechanic will greatly favor town in attempting to confirm players. This is better done for players less likely to get shot for 2 reasons: 1) They have less meta information available on them therefore harder to read. 2) Vets/Well known players are likely to get killed n1 if they are town, even more so given a successful mission, mitigating some of the advantage town might get. This serves to both preserve the good/known players and to keep the confirmed/likely town around longer. I'd like everyone to chime in on this subject of party selection and help come to the optimum way of doing things. Add to that a little confidence: On November 21 2012 11:19 sandroba wrote: I see that everyone went completely the opposite way of tackling this issue as I have so far. Of course I am right and you guys probably gave it no thought. and Sand is looking to be really eager to play in this game and share ideas. So how did he go from that, to this: On November 23 2012 21:51 sandroba wrote: Oh my it seems I'm the only person in the game that doesn't get to have a real life every so often. I spent the night at a girl's house ytd and only got home now. I thought I would give the thread a quick read before heading to bed (yes my sleep schedule is severely fucked up) and I see that suddenly I became the main wagon. Nice. Weekend is ahead and it will be extremelly busy and now I have to fight syllo induced mislynch just to prob face the same problem again the next day. Thx. I'll be here briefily if anyone want to interact, but I'm heading to bed. I took 125 dmg and got roleblocked. Now I don't know about you guys, but I read this as. "Fuck you all, I don't care, get a life, I'm gonna go back to lurking now" A complete 180 in his play over the course of 48 hours. Why? Well, we know it isn't because he desperately wanted to win the election, because in my D1 case I showed he didn't care about winning the election, especially if you take into account his absence the last 6 or so hours of D1. I believe him choosing to run for election was an easy excuse to not scumhunt. I believe him having such enthusiasm early in the game was faked. Faking enthusiasm doesn't generally last for long, as we can clearly see by Sand's changing behavior and activity. Please try to take this point of view and notice how his entire game so far suddenly makes sense. This next post just irks me: On November 23 2012 22:07 sandroba wrote: I am free to play, I'm posting more than the average person and I've contributed a lot. Mind you that 2 out of the 3 people syllo took with him I was planning on taking. I gave out a town read on syllo very early on. As to your question, obviously, since I am town. He has been paranoid about my alignment a lot of times in the past (of the top of my head merc mini mafia and that huge 80 player game), but normally he reaches the correct conclusion soon enough. His only contributions throughout the entire game has been the setup speculation at the very start. Now he claims that he was going to take two out of the three people that Syllo took. Somehow this gives him the credit? Or is he suggesting Syllo stole his idea? Regardless he is wrong and trying to paint himself as a helpful townie, now that he can't hide behind running for election anymore. Sand has shown no interest in helping town out. The only things he has shown interest in are setup speculation and running for the election. He is scum. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:44 Hapahauli wrote: @ nl_clarity I'm not sold on Sandro or your 2nd case on him. Your 2nd case talks a lot about "faking enthusiasm," but his change in eagerness is explainable in many other ways as well. Also, I believe that him giving up the election at the end doesn't make sense with scum objectives: Whaddy'a think? I understand your argument when it comes to him giving up his campaign, but this can be explained in a couple of different ways. Some scummy some townie, most for either. My point is that his behavior this game has not made sense to me at all until I looked at it from this angle. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:48 Keirathi wrote: So, I was thinking about this more earlier. The reasons you gave for picking me for the party were pretty good if you are town. But if you're scum, you would have almost HAD to pick me. Dieno claimed that he was Frog, a 600AD character who increased the party's chance of success. Therefore, you basically HAD to pick him just because of that, even if you're scum (besides the fact that he has been playing very obviously with a townie mindset). So, if he had a high success modifier, and you were scum, then me claiming that I had a low success modifier would make me almost a guaranteed pick if you wanted any chance of actually making the event fail. Now, granted, the more likely option is that you were town and just picking town reads. But I can't dismiss you as a scum possibility just yet after picking me. Why would he have to pick you as town? I was rather confused that you were picked to be completely honest. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:53 Keirathi wrote: I didn't say he had to pick me if he was town. If he is scum, though, he basically HAD to pick me. I misread, my mistake. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:56 Hapahauli wrote: Well I think his campaign-actions are more likely townie than the alternatives. Also, I don't think lynching someone for losing interest on D2, especially over the holidays, is a good idea. I really want to see more from Sandroba before I'd consider lynching him. He didn't lose interest on D2, that's my point. He never had interest. Notice how he opens with big well worded posts and slowly slips into smaller more insulting posts, can't fake enthusiasm for too long. He hides behind his election and once it starts gaining traction he stops, but doesn't replace it with anything. I understand wanting to see more of him but he basically proclaimed he will be mainly lurking the entire weekend. His campaign did not have any visible effort. Everyone but (maybe) third parties have a reason to run for election, but there are two scum motivations: 1) To appear active without having to make reads, 2) To actually get elected and make town fail the mission. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On November 24 2012 07:07 TheChronicler wrote: I don't think it's an unfair suggestion to say that the person with the most votes is the one who is currently thought of as most scummy. I didn't say he's scum because he has votes. I said he was a good candidate because a lot of people find him scummy and you can therefor lynch him. If your problem is that a Sandro lynch seems too easy then you need to say that. Right now you're misrepresenting what I'm saying and I have to wonder why. There is so much wrong with this train of thought. You're saying that because someone is easily lynchable this makes them scum. You're not supposed to be looking for scum you can lynch, you're just supposed to be looking for scum. Looking for easily lynchable targets is scumlike behaviour. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On November 24 2012 07:16 Acrofales wrote: It's plurality lynch and there's another 25 hours to go until the deadline, so: HELL NO. Someone has to be the first. And if we all follow chronicler's logic all mafia has to do to win is be the first, and everyone should LOGICALLY sheep onto him because he's the easiest to lynch. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On November 24 2012 07:17 Dienosore wrote: Anyone else find it strange that Sandro hasn't actually accused anyone of being scummy? He's done about 10 different town reads, but no mafia reads. Closest he came to calling someone scummy was me. Please note that even his townreads lack reasoning. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
Yes. Consolidating is something you do later in the cycle, not early. We still have plenty of time, so if you are town spending your time finding scummy things that haven't been pointed out yet is way better than sheeping onto someone and thinking you've contributed. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On November 24 2012 07:27 TheChronicler wrote: Almost like when I said Sandro knew too much and eKeir latched onto the end of my post trying to make me look scummy then disappeared. You just told me something, I told you you were wrong, and you immediately agree and use my logic to make yourself look good? | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On November 24 2012 07:32 TheChronicler wrote: Its me telling you to read my filter and see that I did go read Sandra's filter and point out why I thought he was scummy. That's great. So are you agreeing with me that taking other people's vote into consideration early during the cycle is a bad idea? | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
| ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
| ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
| ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
| ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
So far there's no real reason to suspect marv, given that he backed the winning horse and he was one of the first to do so. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
| ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
| ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
| ||
| ||