EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXXI - Page 2
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
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Sonic Death Monkey
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On November 25 2012 21:53 JacobStrangelove wrote: Hey just asking the question! Looking back I may have read into that.... a little too much but we don't have much to work with. It wasn't so much your argument that confused me, but the sentence containing a double negation and a parentheses within a parentheses within a parentheses. Did I get it correctly that you thought giving Oat an easy out was scummy by Kick? | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On November 25 2012 22:06 JacobStrangelove wrote: But yeah I was thinking along the lines of oats put a target of his back. However some people *cough* kush *cough* use that play even as mafia to variable success. Fair point. I think that's rather uncommon though. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On November 25 2012 22:40 Kickstart wrote: You two seem to be agreeing that you don't think Oats is scum. Can you explain his vote onto cheese then, because he apparently can't provide a decent explanation for it himself. I take it you have never played scum. The last thing you feel like doing when you're scum is to stumble into the thread and make a terrible case with no evidence, because it'll give you a ton of attention. You can argue whether his posts are anti-town or not. They've started some discussions and a lot of people (well, at least some) are chiming in with opinions etc. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter whether it's anti-town though, I've basically seen no newbies play scum like this (perhaps Kush. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
This sounds like a silly job interview question, but I'd be really interesting in hearing a short analysis. It'd be quite helpful for me. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
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On November 26 2012 01:40 Kickstart wrote: So you view it as a null tell or...? Am at least glad we agree that it is a terrible case with no evidence though. And I just don't think the argument that you have not seen any newbies play like that means anything really, just because you haven't seen it or if it has never been done doesn't mean it can't be. Slight town. I'd say early game spazzes are more likely to be town. He also comes across genuine in his posts, will comment more on this later. I'm not putting too much weight into early town reads though. I think experience is valuable, as long as you realize it's possible your experience is biased. I've played 3 games and have obsed quite a few. I think that's enough to be able to draw some conclusions about general behaviour that are better than worthless. On November 26 2012 01:40 Kickstart wrote: I am however inclined to agree with you that scum wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves but I can't get over how bad his posts were, and they haven't gotten much better. That's exactly how I've been reacting in the Obs QTs I've been in. I see someone who (imo) play terrible and use flawed logic and it pisses me off so bad that I think it makes him scum. Rarely have those reads been correct and I think it's because scum are too careful to use terrible logic. There are better scum tells than someone simply "playing bad". | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On November 26 2012 02:10 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @SDM Probably the most important thing is that just because someone has bad game sense doesn't make them scum. Djo last game pushed his terrible case on me, and I thought he was scummy because he literally had no traction on it. Oats, to me, seems a lot like Djo from last game. Hell, even the smiles. I'm more concerned with people who have faulty motives. Clarity, for example, made this random comment when i was counter-pushing djo to sort of amplify my case. Stuck out to me as active lurking, and there really was no motive behind it. Oats, therefore, despite his lolcase is null. I'm more curious about the people I've FoS'd, particularly HeloKnight. He came in, summarized the general theme which was anti-Oats, posted a little rant on him and then left. Anything from your earlier newbie games you've learnt about what style to play yourself? Do you see any mistakes you made in those games? I'm not talking about VT claiming but more general stuff. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
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On November 26 2012 02:31 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: VT claim was partially due to the fact that I was lazy and thought the flavor would confirm me. Turns out, it made the mafia look so guilty once I flipped haha. The only other game I played was as scum. In that game I played overly neutral, and pretty much tunneled a townie to the ground D2. I felt pressured to -never- change my way of thinking (I only ever FoS'd like two people and only voted Djo lol). If you read my filter in that game, I'm also putting on this super serious face; it's evident in my syntax and diction. I think I know what I'm looking for in my scumreads if I base it off my experience and seeing how my team played. And did that lead you to make any adjustments in your style for this game? | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
On November 26 2012 03:19 HeloKnight wrote: The mafia has to implicate townies as scum and, using good logic, they can only convict other scum. So doesn't scum have to use terrible logic? Otherwise they with only catch their partners. Not really, but kind of. It's like that story about the man who lost his keys on his way home from the bar. A policeman sees a drunk man searching for something under a streetlight and asks what the drunk has lost. He says he lost his keys and they both look under the streetlight together. After a few minutes the policeman asks if he is sure he lost them here, and the drunk replies, no, that he lost them in the park. The policeman asks why he is searching here, and the drunk replies, "this is where the light is." Most newbs are like the drunk man who looks for scum tells that are easy to find (contradictions, "scum slips" etc). The problem is scum tells are usually NOT easy to find because the easy to find scum tells are also easy to cover up. Not contradicting yourself is suprisingly easy as long as you're a bit careful and most "scum slips" are just the result of a careless townie. As long as townies scum hunt under the streetlight scum can join their in because it's so easy to find townies contradicting themself or some comment that can be an OMG-scumslip-alert. As long as the townies themselves don't realize it's inneffective, arguments by scum will at least look logically sound. And of course, sometimes a bad set of circumstances or a lack of trying will actually make a townie look legitimately scummy | ||
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On November 26 2012 03:28 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: For this game? Aside from what to look for in posts and analyzing behavior, not really. As it were, that game helped my scum mentality more than anything. In what way did it help your scum mentality? | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
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Part 1 In XXIX: CC was scum and all uptight, just like he said in one of his responses itt. After the game, his scum buddies said he was a funny guy cracking a lot of jokes in the scum QT. It's quite obvious CC wasn't being himself in the actual XXIX game thread, the real CC isn't uptight. In XXX: CC was town and the complete opposite of uptight. It was obvious he was being his real self, ie what he had shown in the scum QT in XXIX. This complete change of meta was why I gave him a 100% town read in the obs QT. BUT this play style got him lynch. Cracking jokes and being a goof got him into a shitty situation which lead him to a weird VT claim and later a mislynch. What would one expect town CC to take away from this? He needs to lay off his goofy style or he risks getting mislynched. What would one expect scum CC to take away from this? He needs to be more of a goof, otherwise the difference in meta will give him away. If you compare this game to his town play in XXX, he's more serious business now. That would lead me to believe either a) he's town and has realized his style in XXIX didn't work and he needs to play a bit more "serious" or b) the reason he's playing closer to his scum meta is because he's scum. Now I agree with what Oats said, CCs initial posts in this thread come off as "forced casual". That is, b) is quite possible: He's scum, has realized he needs to emulate his town play style, but doesn't really succeed. Besides, by asking these questions, I really gave him the chance to give me the a) explanation, but he didn't. He even says it hasn't affected his town play at all, which I find weird considering how he crashed and burned in XXX. He says, however, that it has affected his scum mentality. The reason he knows may be because he's playing scum right now. Part 2 When you play as scum, you really don't want to butt heads with the stronger players. When I was scum in XXVIII I soon came to realize it would be in my best interest to agree with DarthPunk and Z-Boson because they pursued their scum reads aggressively. Now maybe I'm full of myself, but having played 3 games I would like to believe I'm one of the DPs and ZBs of this game, a player you want to get along with if you're scum. That's why this post by CC makes uneasy: On November 26 2012 00:16 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: + Show Spoiler + Okay so just woke up. The Oats vote is pretty lulzy to me. On November 25 2012 23:26 Oatsmaster wrote: LOL kickstart learning from the vets huh. there are like 4 pages of content, I challenge you to find a case out of that. A proper case that has scum reasons for certain posts. ok about cheesecake 1.) This post looks like he is being light-hearted, especially with the Pie and Cheesecake question. I feel that it is an act, the post looks VERY deliberate in being casual. 2.) Then here, a reason for people to be lurking is because we havent called them out. He basically says, I will lynch a lurker/anybody. Which is good reason to hop onto any bandwagon that is benefical for scum. Like lynching an inactive town/active but bad town <snip> I'm more concerned about Yamato right now. His posts amount to a bunch of one-liners that achieve nothing. Same goes for Helo, pretty blendy personalities at this point in time. FoS Yamato77 FoS HeloKnight Just a bit of pressure, I'd like to hear some constructive posts from them. @Aquanium On November 25 2012 14:57 Aquanim wrote: Sure, he's made all of I'm not liking this. In the first quote Cheesecake took, Oatsmaster is agreeing with this post: which is pretty generically town-speech stuff from Mr. Cheesecake. I could well see Oatsmaster agreeing with the body of this message, BUT not liking the fact that Cheesecake is making speeches rather than poking people and looking for scum. (I'm taking a wild guess at what Oatsmaster's feeling was based on here.) And apart from Cheesecake's questions in his first post and contentless sniping at Oatsmaster since that's all there is. This post is extremely wish-washy to me. He basically takes a neutral stance and says that he can understand both sides of the argument. I'm confused as to his opinion. Do you not like the fact that he agreeing with me, and simultaneously gets a scum-feel? Or do you disagree with me? It is basically a carbon copy of my previous opinions/questions: On November 25 2012 19:15 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: + Show Spoiler + The first thing that stuck out to me was Helo just making a couple of short posts then disappearing (to enter again with another contentless post after he was called out for it). Yamato is making a decent amount of posts with no content and making some weird conclusions, such as. On November 25 2012 13:51 yamato77 wrote: If we sheep oats and lynch cheesecake, and he flips town, at least our day 2 lynch is an easy decision. Which obviously isn't correct. He also seems worried about how he's percieved, asking Aqua about whether he's still uneasy about him. From my experience as scum you usually don't like being in the dark of how others percieve you. Not much to go on so far, but that was my initial reactions to the thread. <snip> On November 25 2012 21:37 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 25 2012 14:57 Aquanim wrote: Sure, he's made all of I'm not liking this. In the first quote Cheesecake took, Oatsmaster is agreeing with this post: which is pretty generically town-speech stuff from Mr. Cheesecake. I could well see Oatsmaster agreeing with the body of this message, BUT not liking the fact that Cheesecake is making speeches rather than poking people and looking for scum. (I'm taking a wild guess at what Oatsmaster's feeling was based on here.) And apart from Cheesecake's questions in his first post and contentless sniping at Oatsmaster since that's all there is. I don't really understand this post. What read did you end up with on CC and why? Being second on the ball to one of the stronger/more experienced players in this game is scummy. CC also kind of sided with me on the Oats issue, although his read is more on the null side. So yeah, I'm accusing him of cock-riding. FOS Cheesecake Cheesecake is my best scum read right now, but at least he's around and actually contributing. I'm absolutely capable of switching to one of you lurkers out there if I find a decent reason. There's also plenty of time of Cheesecake to convince me he's not scum, so go for it. | ||
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On November 26 2012 05:18 Munk-E wrote: Hello everyone! I am here. 1. 3 before, and I think I've lost them all. TT 2. It's a dumb idea. Lurkers don't become suspicious unless they avoid direct questions. A townie would be just as likely to lurk day 1 as a red, since real life can get in the the way early on. Plus, if someone is lurking a suspicious amount, and they're mafia, their scum brethren would tell them to pick it up on their posting. 3. It's a biased question, you give us only one flavor of cake, but we have to compare it against an entire class of deserts? What are you trying to imply? That cheesecake is better than any type of pie? In your response you arrogantly dismiss pie. This could be a tactic to make every type of pie be seen as inferior to cheesecake, and that might taint the views of the rest of the players. You know who else trys to change the opinion of the players? Mafia do. Mr. Cheesecake is SCUM So a lurker appears and says lynching lurkers is a dumb idea. You're gonna have to do better than this. Besides it can be any flavor of pie ldo. | ||
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On November 26 2012 05:30 Kickstart wrote: Not to mention the post is just fluff, but I suppose I will forgive that for an introduction post. What's your take on CC? | ||
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On November 26 2012 05:35 HeloKnight wrote: I'm interested in hearing Cheesecake's response to this part before I make a judgement. I don't really see the "forced casual" in his posting, however, and you could make the same argument for a lot of people. Do you think Oats is forced casual? No, he comes off as genuine to me. Not a strong read either way, but having played so much scum I've been studying the play of a lot of newbie town that I knew were town at the time. He seems to fit. And don't put too much emphazis on the "forced casual" part, that's my opinion but not what the case hinges on. On November 26 2012 05:35 HeloKnight wrote: It's possible that Cheesecake is just sheeping your opinion, but he might also honestly have the same opinion as you. I think the two of you are the most experienced players here, you might just be agreeing on something. Why do you think he's "cock-riding"? The scum motivation would be to get along. There's not town motivation other than him genuinely agreeing with me wrt to you, Yamato, Aqua and Oats. That's possible, but a bit unlikely. | ||
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On November 26 2012 05:35 Kickstart wrote: In regards to your case on cheesecake SDM, I am personally not a fan of meta cases (they did not go well at all in my last game lol), I am much more interested in a players activity in this game. I have to agree on the point that he has echoed what has already been said in the thread, I just personally think it is a null tell at this point. Right now I really need to hear more from the people lurking, they've had almost a day at this point to post something of substance and engage in some conversation. In what sense? Because you think low activity players are more likely to be scum or just because it's obv pro-town because we need as much info as possible? I agree we need more activity, all townies needs to start posting their thoughts/reads. | ||
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On November 26 2012 05:34 yamato77 wrote: Mr. Cheesecake is playing without contributing. He's written a lot, but most of it is absolutely useless to a town looking for scum. His policy discussion and talk about other mafia games he's played doesn't help hunt for other players, it seems like more of a defense for himself. Then he calls out two players, myself and Helo, trying to draw attention away from himself. None of this reads town to me, at all. I don't like this reaction. Sure, you can argue he hasn't contributed much, but at least he's been somewhat enganged in the thread unlike a lot of others. Aside from that, the reason he talked about his old games was because I asked him, him answering is appreciated. Him calling out you and Helo can easily have town motivations. Obviously town wants to call out what he considers suspicious bahaviour. You end up saying nothing reads town, but the more important question is: does it read scum, and why? Other than that your one-liners are really not contributing much and kind of stay-under-the-radar like. FOS Yamato | ||
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On November 26 2012 05:57 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Put some stuff in bold. [b]The meta-argument is a null tell, SDM, and you should know that. I've played two games two different ways and two different roles, nothing can be concluded from this. I actually agree with the sheeping point. Seems pretty legit to me, but the fact that we observed the same thing isn't out of the ordinary because the game just started. I was there when yamato was doing his one liner stuff, I think I even told him somewhere that he wasn't contributing shit to the thread during our conversation, if you could call it that. I'm pretty suspicious of HeloKnight right now and I'll give a little post on him later. Yeah, meta is likely to change within your first few games. That's why I gave you the opportunity to explain to me that was what had happened. I don't think those meta changes happens sub-conciously (they may to some degree), but I find it weird this change in meta would be entirely sub-concious as implied in your responses. If in this game you are more serious than your usual self, it seems likely to me it would be a product of either a) you realized that in order to not get lynched you can't be your usual town self or b) you are scum and thus closer to your scum self. I brought this up now because I wanted a response asap, otherwise I'll end up close to EOD with too little info on your play. Still need some more time to fully process this info, but as of right now it's scummy to me. | ||
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