Newbie Mini Mafia XXVII
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
I think we've pretty much reached the limit of discussion on lurker strategy. Pressure them when possible, but scum hunt as best as we can, and only lynch the scummiest lurker when there are no better options. Yes, a lurker does hurt the town, but lynching based just off the fact that they're lurking (especially in a newbie game) strikes me that we're more likely to kill a townie scared of being accused. That's just a numbers game, and somewhat based on the fact that new players are probably not going to play their role to the best of their ability. @Drazak I somewhat agree with Thrawn's read on this situation. While that definitely is a scummy trait, I'm willing to chalk that up to a busy schedule, a lack of sleep, and the fact that before he's even posted he was getting trashed about a previous game. I might be a little upset by that too. That being said, it only really covers the first paragraph, the second one is well, just strange. I personally don't think there's too much to be gleamed from a one off post like that until there's more to compare it to. @Kush I'm honestly tempted to vote you just because of what you said about flaming and OMGUS'ing. I'd hate being called scum too, but that's just not the way to deal with it. It just doesn't help the town (though really it shouldn't help the mafia unless the town is gullible). And no, there is a problem in a lynch all lurkers strategy, it's like giving the mafia two kills per night unless we're lucky enough to be able to catch a mafia lurking. Yes, we get information from the scumhunting during the day, but I don't think that makes up for it. Killing lurkers should be the last resort of the day, not the go to strategy. All that being said, no one is particularly scummy yet. I'm waiting for 1 or 2 more people to post before I starting slinging my vote around carelessly. | ||
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On September 18 2012 15:22 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Maffia XXVII survey (not filling it in will make you look scummy): 1. Will you be around for lynch time? 2. How active do you plan on being? 3. How many games have you obsed? 4. Is this your first game playing? 5. If not, how many games have you played? 6. Is this your first time playing as scum? 1. I plan to be, but shit happens so I can't guarantee. More than likely at any rate. 2. As much as I feel the need to. I certainly won't be inactive, but neither will I be filling the thread with junk posts. 3. None. 4. On Team Liquid. 5. This space intentionally left blank 6. Funny man, I like you already. | ||
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On September 18 2012 10:48 kushm4sta wrote: I am so fucking sick of lurkers from last game. #1 They make the game shittier regardless of if they are scum. #2 They are 100% null reads all game long. You ask them a question and of course they aren't going to responsd because they post like 1 thing a day and dont even read the thread. #3 It gives scum safe people to accuse. Most of the time they aren't mafia but in the 2 games I played both of them had semi-lurker mafia. Lurker Policy: LYNCH ALL LURKERS, semilurkers at the top of the lynch list if we don't have a very strong scumread to bandwagon. This seems like reasonable logic. They do generally cause null reads on themselves. However, with point #3, we're making it so the mafia don't have to accuse them. We're already killing them for the mafia (provided lurkers are not mafia, but that's iffy either way). This is not a scummy post in my opinion, but this does help mafia and the SK provided they are active. On September 18 2012 11:31 kushm4sta wrote: Sup guys I am kushmasta IRL name jake. I live in maine and go to college for chemical engineering. (think all that random shit you learned in chemistry applied to real world situations). No fluff zone: posting habits I probably will post a lot because I have no life. I work but my work is basically a study hall so I will be posting on my phone at work. That is why sometimes my spelling and formatting will be ass. experience I have 2 games played and I have won both games and never killed. So far I am unkilled and undefeated and I want to continue my streak so I will be tryharding this game, but not tryharding enough so I'm the best town and mafia kills me. Call it selfish but I dont want to die... @thrawn I know you have 3 games undefeated but you got killed by scum therefore you aren't as cool as me. I am looking to step up my play this game. Last game was quite humbling for me. I made a lot of bad calls, and d1 caused a mislynch >< IM SORRY CUBU So I'm going to try to be more careful and have better analysis this game. Lynch time I will be around on my phone at least. I think deciding on a lynch at the last minute is a really powerful tool for town beacuse it makes scum panic and do stupid things. However that's really not possible with this mess of time zones we got going on here. Self preservation isn't necessarily scummy, blues require some amount of it to. Maybe it's something akin to ladder anxiety (my record is perfect, it must stay perfect!), or maybe he's giving himself a way out of not posting good reads. If you get killed by the mafia, you get killed by the mafia, you should be trying to contribute in the best way possible before that. In some cases that just be by trying to survive until you have information, and in others that might be putting out your best effort for scum hunting and just hoping they don't kill you. A numbers game says the latter is more likely. Underlined part seems sincere to me, makes me suspect townie. On September 18 2012 12:00 kushm4sta wrote: If you write 1 post a day but it's a brilliant epic post then that's cool with me. I can be realistic about people's busy schedules. And that is WAY better than a few little posts with no content. .. and I'm looking at you STUTTERS, DRAZAK, and ESPECIALLY CUBU who were all town last game but pretty trash town. And I like to attention whore esp day 1. and If you accuse me of being scum I will omgus and start a flame war with you just because im really sensitive and hate being called scum. drazak knows what I'm talking about. Im trying to play better this game though so f u thrawn. Reverses his stance on 1 post per day, first post was about how set he was to lynch anyone who single posts per day. Then suddenly goes after Stutters/Draz/Cubu. The "especially Cubu" makes his previous apology (the one that gave me a bit of a town read) smack of insincerity. Follow this up with the whole "OMGUS+flamewar", I'd generally just chalk it down to bad play (apparently he did this as town twice) but with everything else it makes me think scummy. On September 18 2012 20:27 kushm4sta wrote: @stutters I want to improve my play because last game I sucked quite hard. anyone can attest to that lol. I also don't want to be the best town because getting nk sucks imo. I like being around for the end of the game. I'm just being honest. but thanks for accusing me because it makes it less likely that ill be nk, since scum usually kill the towniest person. what I said about flame wars.. that is what I did in the last two previous games. for instance drazak accused me really hard and I basically just called him a bad player again and again. I am trying to avoid that this game though. I really hate waking up to people fosing me...feels bad Keeps on about NKs, and how badly he doesn't want to be NKed. It just rubs me the wrong way. Like he's trying his best to make it sound like town, but has no idea what a town player would talk about. On September 18 2012 20:56 kushm4sta wrote: In regards to thrawn's attack on sonic for his survey: @Sonic: Yeah that was based on mine, but I dont think to make a list and say "answer these or you're scum" is very productive. What I put up was just some suggestions for newer players to have something to talk about. I notice newbies never really know what to say d1. @Thrawn: I don't think sonic's survey is particularly scummy. He did the same thing last game. He was scum last game, sure, but I think it's just his MO for day one, scum or town. Also here is why I think sonic is town. I'm putting my reasoning in spoilers because admittedly it's pretty dumb: He was scum for the last 2 games. Do you really think marv would make him scum 3rd game in a row? It's possible but just feels unlikely to me. It's just as likely as anyone else being scum assuming the roles were determined off of random chance. That's such a weak thing to say that I wonder why you even included it. I think it's far too early to have a really good read on the situation, but the way he's played so far screams scum to me, but not mafia. Right now, my main read is on Kush, and it's that he's not mafia, and he's not town. I feel he is, in fact, the serial killer. If I were going to be really specific, I'd wager a serial killer that took detection immunity, and thus is the reason he's so worried about being NK'ed. So since we've had a few FoS's but no votes, allow me to cast the first vote ##Vote:kushm4sta Other reads I have right now aren't too strong, I have a weak idea that Thrawn and debears are town, and I'm bouncing back and forth between weak town and weak scum on SDM. I'd like to think he's town because so far he's amused me. Drazak is still undecided in my mind until he posts more. | ||
Sharrant
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On September 19 2012 02:09 kushm4sta wrote: Defense of Sharrant's case against me Good...scumhunting...dude.. there I didn't flame. 1 You call me insincere because at first I say sorry cubu for bandwagoning him last game, then I call him out for lurking? I am not going to make a case against him for lurking, but I think a COUPLE words saying so and so are lurking we still need a post is fine. And yeah I will say cubu played really really bad last game. I wont apologize for saying that. I'm still sorry for lynching him. I was not trying to start a flame war for with cubu, I was just trying to get him to post. I think encouraging lurkers to post by calling them out or asking them questions is productive. Making cases against lurkers is not productive. It was just a couple of words, but it is all in the wording. It was the whole underlined, bolded, italicized call out of him. I agree that lurkers need a kick in the pants to start posting more. I'd like to see more posts from Cubu, Stutters, and Killing Time specifically. You've taken a few steps on the road to seeming town to me, but it's a long journey for you, I'm still sticking with my first call. 2 I "keep on about NKs" only because people are calling me out for that statement and I want to defend myself. I will stop talking about NK if you stop. But since you brought it up again let me talk more about my stance on nks: + Show Spoiler + I'm pretty sure last game sonic said it's honorable to be nked, I disagree with this statement because you significantly depreciate your value as town if you do not preserve that value till the end of the game. I think getting NKed indicates bad play for town, because you are making yourself a target. Why did I even bring it up? Bad idea probably judging by the reaction, but I wanted to give you guys some insight into my personal strategy, And if you're afraid to make yourself a target, then you don't put up as much as you can. NKs provide can provide just as much information as lynches can. On the first read through of your post, I was more convinced of your townieness. But your "I only talk about NKs because you guys talk about! But I'm going to talk about it again, and then say how it was a bad idea to talk about it in the first place." that's put me in an odd spot. It sends real mixed signals to me. 3 I never reversed my stance on anything. 1 post a day is not lurking if its a long post. Lynch lurkers, yes, but 1 post a day does not make you a lurker. @sharron Is there anything else you want me to address or is that it? Also please give more effort to organize your posts better. Singling out the different arguments made against me was quite hard. I'll take this one as a misinterpretation of your wording earlier. You have the benefit of the doubt there, I retract that point from before. I think my post was more than adequately formatted, every point I called you on was bolded, every town read you gave was underlined, each point was addressed immediately afterwards, and was followed by a concise conclusion. If you have a suggestion on how to better format my posts, do tell. You've gained some leniency, in that I know have more of a doubt that you might just be a townie who just sort of blurts out whatever they're thinking, but my vote stays on you for now until you post your own scum reads. But I appreciate that you are remaining civil, I think it helps the town out more. KillingTime, you're starting to come up on my radar more and more. You seem to be riding coat tails, and posting a recap, rather than analysis of events, and then you come out swinging at debears based off of very, very little. People I would like to hear more from: debears, KillingTime, Rethos, Jacob You're all up there because I would like to get a better read on you, or I'd like to know more about your opinions. People I need to hear more from: Atreides, Cubu, Drazak, Remedy, Stutters And you're all up here because you're either suspicious, or lurking. My current suspicions are Kush (SK, possibly blue or self important green), KillingTime/debears (One of these two is mafia I think, more likely KT), Stutters (Maf, low content, low posts) We need to operate under the impression that among ourselves is not just the mafia, but a serial killer. It changes reads on people by an incredible amount. There's too many strategies open to an idependant killer if we don't also try to address them in our scum hunting. | ||
Sharrant
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This whole KillingTime versus debears is interesting though. I believe at most one of them is mafia. I'm really split on this one though. On the one hand, KillingTime is a little here nor there in my mind. I had been leaning towards him as scum, up until I realized he was the only other person who had voted, and in fact was the only one who advocated votes over FoSing on day one. Both of which I think are strong town moves. FoSing is really the equivalent of doing sweet fuck all. You may as well just say someone is suspicious, but that you can't be bothered to vote for them. Voting has power, and you don't necessarily vote to lynch, you can vote just to pressure. At the same time, debears isn't really the most suspicious person to me, his defense of Thrawn could be scummy, or it might not be. It was weird, but not a strong tell either way in my opinion. However, there is getting to be a large web of people involved with debears either way. ##unvote Kushm4sta ##vote debears I do however think that it will be a distraction until it is resolved. THere's a good chance he flips scum, and that would reflect poorly on Thrawn, who up until this point I've been relatively sure he was town. I'm not convinced he's mafia, but I'm suspicious enough of him I'd like to get to the point where we can force a claim. | ||
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On September 19 2012 05:26 thrawn2112 wrote: Well that bolded part is just a straight up lie. I don't see how drazak fits into your theory... I was the first one to call drazak out on his unreasonably defensive post and I've never defended him. So once again, is the only reason you think I'm scum because of your debears association case? Ok Sharrant that is a ridiculous vote. You start out saying "debears isn't really the most suspicious person to me" and say his defense of me "was weird, but not a strong tell either way in my opinion." Then you vote for him and say "there's a good chance he flips scum" and you're "not convinced he's mafia" after saying his defense of me was a null read. So, what exactly is your read on him and if you don't have a read then why are you voting for him? All I see is a bunch of "he may be scum" and "he is a null read." That's a ridiculous vote? You pick choice words out to discredit what I said, and try to make it personal. I'm fairly convinced the two of you are mafia after that. You know who I think is most suspicious, that hasn't been a secret. This has been mentioned in every post that Kush is my number one target, but that's not going anywhere. I think you should re-read my post. Several times even. Yes, his defense of you wasn't particularly strong either way in and of itself, that's what I said. That's one moment of his play, and you jumped all over that. This is exactly why I voted debears. He was scummier to me than KillingTime, and the situation between those two had to be resolved. And look, here you come in and jump all over it. I never said he was a null read, not once yet you claim I did. I said I'm not convinced he's mafia, but I'm suspcious enough of him to the point where I'd like to force him to claim. Do you see how different those things are? Of course you do, because you're not dumb, you're trying to buy yourself and him some room. I said he was suspicious because he's suspicious, I said I'm not convinced because I wouldn't bet my life savings that he's mafia. But I'm absolutely willing to vote for him. Voting for him did not mean I was ready to lynch him, as it stands I'd now be ready to lynch both of you. I was pretty sure he would flip mafia before, now I'm much more certain. You tried to bully me out of voting, because you didn't agree, yet have cast no votes yourself. In fact everyone has been pretty much sitting on their hands in that regard, townies shouldn't be so scared to use their tools to hunt mafia. Maybe I'm wrong and you and debears aren't mafia, but that "ridiculous vote" just got a pretty big scum slip in my eyes from you. | ||
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I also have said several times now, that I consider him suspicious. The fact that you keep ignoring this is baffling. | ||
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On September 19 2012 06:23 thrawn2112 wrote: Claim what? His role? Why would you possibly want someone to roleclaim D1? I'm not even sure if roleclaiming is what you're talking about. You say you find him suspicious but you say that while also talking about his defense of me was a null read.... which is the main reason people are suspicious of him in the first place. So what about him is suspicious and what is this "claim" you're trying to get him to make? Yes, I want him to claim. That's why I voted. That's why I said my intent was to force him to role claim, ie put him at L-1. You said before how you wanted information and discussion, yet here you're entirely balking, and freaking out about trying to get information and discussion to flow. Now, why debears? Let's see. Randomly calling you out as town, not particularly helpful to the town, but could earn mafia some town credit to people not paying attention. It's not out of the question he does it as town, but there's nothing that really helps the town that comes out of it. If I call a mafia member a townie, he's not going to dispute it, if I call a townie a mafia member discussion will come from it and hopefully clear his name and shed more light on the situation. His defense of you wasn't a null read, in a vacuum it absolutely is, and it was when there was a low post count. On its own, it is weird, an oddity and nothing more. It could just be bad play. Your defense of him is starting to make it seem more suspicious though. And then when you add in the little tidbit that the closest he's got to scum hunting is that one point he said that Rethos' posts were devoid of content. That's it. End of story. No suspicions, no votes. He did FoS SDM at one point, just based on he did exactly what you did AND called you out for it. So he thinks that when SDM did it, it was suspicious, but not you. I still wouldn't bet my life on either of you being mafia. But Kush is no longer my #1 scum read. The way you've reacted has put you to number 2, and debears is sitting at the number one spot now. The only reason I'm not going after you is that I had a decent town read from you earlier. When there's more evidence, you may replace debears as my vote. | ||
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On September 19 2012 06:37 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Sharrant, I've been suspicious of you for a while and I'm only getting increasingly suspicious as you continue to post. At first it was just a "feel read", but I feel there's a full case to be made now. You make a case against Kush, a very easy and obvious target Stutters had been attacking before. This is not necessarily scummy, but it's certainly not very townie. The arguments against Kush are mainly: 1) Flip-flopping on whether posting one post per day is good enough. 2) Insincere wrt his apology to Cubu. 3) Skeptic about his rationale for wanting to avoid being NKd. 1) Kush's "one post per day is good enough" was silly, but it had been attacked before. It thus becomes an easy target for scum and it's and doesn't require original thinking (original thinking as scum, when you know who's town and not, is suprisingly difficult). 2) It's possible his apology was insincere, but how does that make him scum? 3) Again, this was a silly statement by Kush, but it had already been attacked by Stutters and is an easy target. What really came off as weird though, was how he not only implied Kush was scum, but that he even was SK. Seriously, that read is so specific it's ridiculous. To be claiming reads on SK this early, a 1 in 13 shot assuming there's even one in the game, is really weird. Spotting a SK hasn't even been in my range of thinking this early into d1. It's interesting though, because the players likely to be thinking about a SK this early in the game is scum. Just consider the information they've got. They know all townies and all maffia, figuring out if there's a SK is their only "black box" aside from blue roles (which he also mentions in his post). It's not at all weird for scum to think about SK at this point, but I do find it weird for townies. Ask yourselves, before his post, had any of you guys even been you guys been even considering a SK read? Now to what I find to be the strongest part of the case, thrawn just pointed out a classic scum slip: voting for someone you don't think is the most likely scum. He thinks lynching him to resolve "a distraction" and for information on thrawns allignment. Other than that his read has been that he's town and no additional reasoning is given. I'll admit, while playing XXVI I didn't really know this was a scum slip. Kush did it and I just found it weird. However, after I had gotten lynched, I was having a conversation with one of the coaches (Hapahauli). He said he was 99% sure Kush was the final scum because of those scum slips. He was absolutely amazed that he was not. It's documented in the Obs QT and I could quote some PMs as well, but I'm not sure I'm allowed. Anyway, the Obs QT is here and the main post I'm referencing is post #46. In it, two of the reasons given for a Kush being scum is because he: 1) Saying "cubu is probably town" and voting him anyway. 2) Wanting to lynch Cubu to determine Thrawn's allignment. Sounds familiar? I know Kush turned out to be town, but a coach considering this to be such a strong read and coupled with my other suspicions, I think it's a good case. I'm willing to hear you out, but for now my I'm going with... ##vote Sharrant I'm glad to see another person is voting. The reason I went immediately to SK, is because that's a powerful role and I'm used to playing with it. It can sow a lot of confusion, and I'm not used to games where they can have immunity to detection. But it's much more than that, my scum read on Kush was not a scum read. It was an SK read. I said it several times, I don't think he's mafia. I think he is either town or SK. His play did not have slips that would really benefit the mafia as much as it would benefit an independent killing role. I find it very unlikely that he would be mafia, but he was scummy. Some claimed that's just the way he plays, and it could be. So the tells he gave, and the way he played in general made me think he was SK. Onto your point against me, it's still early in the day, and it was obvious no one else agreed strongly enough with my read on Kush to push it, that's just how it goes. Rather than sit there and waste my vote I decided I would put it to use, and try and sort out the Killing versus debears mess. I'm not afraid to throw my vote around, it's the power I have, and I'll use it. From this we've gained a lot of discussion, and we've had two more people vote. I'll admit, I'm not the happiest that both of those votes are on me, but that's life. We're actually getting shit done now. Everyone keeps saying I had no read on debears, and I'm not sure why. I hope that my last post cleared that up, but if you look back you'll see that I made no mention of him being town. I only made mentions of slight or medium scum tells, or reads that are up in the air when they're on their own. | ||
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On September 19 2012 07:21 debears wrote: So I'm not the most suspicious, yet I"m the one you vote for. And, not only that, you are going after me. Funny how you agree with kush, the person you most suspect for mafia, on that. And another thing that raised my eyebrows was how quickly you gave up on attacking kush although you still think he is sk: You basically stated that you are leaving kush alone. Yet you hide it in a mass of text about formatting. The rest of the post is you telling people who need to post. I liked the kush SK notion, but your current activity isn't making much sense. I've stated several times that I think Kush is SK, or town. Not mafia. My read was either that he was a townie who just wrote everything that came to mind, or he was the SK. The way he played did not strike me as mafia, it was too independent and too loud. I haven't given up on Kush being the SK. But with his lack of posting, and there being no concrete evidence of an SK yet, it's not worth pursuing in my eyes. It's still there, but it's obvious that it isn't happening right now. If I keep harping on about him being SK, then all people get from me is "that guy is SK based off of a few things he said day 1, and a feeling!" that's not strong. My vote isn't static, if I see an opportunity to bring Kush back up to the top of everyone's list because of a really strong slip he makes before the end of day 1, there's a good chance my vote is going right back to him. Kush not posting means I haven't had anything to go on about it, it would be silly to let myself get tied down by that. You and KillingTime posed an opportunity. I didn't think that two of you would be town, nor that two of you were mafia. So I put my vote in on the one of you that hasn't been using their only town power, the vote. And look what happened. Things have now happened, Thrawn gave up what I believe were some strong slips linking you, but he could just be very sure of you being a townie. I think that's very early for such a strong stance. Part of what gets me, is how solidly you think of the vote. You guys seem to use it like a weapon, and not a tool. Post some reads, that was one of my main criticisms of you for being scummy. I'll gladly drop my vote if you convince me. Right now this little kerfuffle has pushed you to the top of my list. @Kush Don't worry, I don't get pissy, it doesn't help anyone in this game. Obviously no one is going to role claim as mafia, so he'll claim something from town (either blue or green). You say getting him to roleclaim as a blue is scummy, why do you assume he's a blue? Hell, if he's a blue, he should lie and claim VT. I think he's a mafia, thus I want him to claim, because if he is mafia HE HAS TO CLAIM A TOWN ROLE. Yes, he may be a townie that's entirely true. But more likely in my mind at this point is that he's a mafia. Making his claim early means that he'll be somewhat stuck on roles, can't claim blue or he'll most likely get outted as mafia, and claiming town will eventually show a discrepency. I'll gladly answer any questions about my reads if you have any. | ||
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I wanted you to roleclaim, because of the little stint you and Thrawn had there. That struck me as scummy, so rather than wanting to lynch you, I wanted to get you to claim, and then depending on whether your claim was refuted or not, just drop it and possibly find someone that had revealed themselves as scummy while you were on the front of everyone's minds. I don't know why you guys think it's scummy to be thinking about the SK. It's as powerful as the mafia, except that they aren't going to get outted by their teammates mistakes, and they don't have to try and look after anyone. It's true, it might not be in the game, but you guys are playing entirely without considering that it's in the game. And that's just a bad move. Do you know why? Because if I were the SK, I'd have taken the non-detection, and I wouldn't kill anyone. And all of you would think there was no SK, and that'd be an easy win. So here I am trying to get you guys to think about it, and I'm getting voted up based on that, and something I never said, and a few things I did say. debears, either you just screwed the pooch big time, and outted yourself as a blue, or you're just making things up. Because I never asked a blue to role claim. I said I wanted to vote you up so you had to role claim. @Kush Yes, everyone would most likely do that. But this is an open game, so it's entirely possible for mafia to go into risk versus reward mode, and claim blue hoping that no one disputes them because we don't have that role. Even if he claims green, it's still information and discussion. If he claims VT, we put him in the maybe box and then go from there. | ||
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Hell, we could even get lucky enough that two reds would claim to be the masons, and be lucky enough to have masons to refute that. I'm not sure why a role claim on one person that was noted by a few people as scummy, is so scummy. A mass role claim on day one would be instalynch scummy, but this is my alternative to trying for a lynch on him day 1. Just to put some pressure and see what comes of it. Anwyays, I too am wondering where Killing's post is. I came into this little debate because of him and debears, but now Killing has mysteriously vanished. It's possible that I came in a little too hot on debears, when I should've been going after Killing. I'm waiting for Kush and Killing's posts now. Hopefully we can get some more people talking again, this really ended up coming down to 4 people. Just by the numbers it's actually somewhat likely that no mafia are involved in our little dispute. @Jacob You misread that slightly. That was not "he is in fact the serial killer" it was "I feel he is, in fact, the serial killer". The difference is that it was not "He is the serial killer" it was "I feel he is". And pease, people, read carefully. This is the third or fourth time that someone has said I didn't find debears suspicious before I voted, when I clearly stated that I was suspicious of him he was just not my number 1 suspicion. You're still a player I would like to hear more from, Jacob, but at this point you're not a suspect to me. I'm obviously not the happiest to be up here, but I think it's helping my reads on people. I'm still not sure about Thrawn taking debears under his wing, that still strikes me as scummy, but aside from a few misreadings, his posts have generally been quality and it's felt like he was going after me rather than trying to start a bandwagon on me. I even get the same feeling from debears, which is killing me. I guess a possibility I hadn't thought of, is that the two of them could be the masons. That would actually make sense in my mind, and give reason as to why they protected each other off the bat. I don't want to take my vote off of debears just yet, but that may change come Kush's and Killing's posts. | ||
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That was me that mentioned the possibility of them both being masons. @Kush I agree with you about lurkers at this time. I'm ready to bury the hatchet on both debears and thrawn in order to get rid of one of our hard lurkers. The way I'm looking at it right now, is everyone has done things that are varying degrees of scummy. But we're all actively posting. I don't like the Thrawn/debears dynamic, it really strikes me as scum, but I'm starting to lean more towards the lurkers. In particular, I think there's one candidate that would clear up most of this. Most of the reason for me voting for debears in the first place was because of KillingTime. He's promise some posts, but hasn't delivered. Unless he makes a large contribution tomorrow, I expect that is where my vote will end up. I ended up going with debears when I thought one of them was scum, but debears has at least been somewhat active. So it goes on a few ifs, but the lurker that I'm most comfortable going after in this situation is KillingTime. If we lynch him, and if he flips mafia, that's the end of any case of mine against debears and Thrawn. | ||
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Yes, SDM, I like staying calm. It doesn't really help if I suddenly flip off the handles at being accused. I stay calm because I know I'm town, and I want to win. If you can't stay calm, and think cooly, you can't set traps for scum. I was happy that you voted for me, just because everyone in this game sits on their hands when it comes to voting, I said before, it's a tool not a weapon. I wasn't happy being under that much pressure right away, I'm still not happy about the amount of pressure I'm under. But it brought more activity and has made people use their votes more. I know I'm innocent, so I know I'll be fine. I'm used to mafia games where I have more information about the set up of the game, and in those situations using a logical analysis makes for very easy wins. Now here is where I run into a problem. We're 2 votes away from the point I set out to get debears to. I still want to force a claim on him, no matter how scummy you think that is, it just doesn't make sense from a mafia perspective. Nor an SK perspective. But I have a plan, and I am sticking to that plan. I won't say it's the best plan ever, in fact there's a huge chance that it fails. Here is how it stands for me. In order of most to least scummiest: debears, Thrawn, KillingTime/Stutters, Kush, everyone else, SDM. Scummiest lurkers to me are: KillingTime, and Stutters. My ideal situation is: push debears up to L-1, get him to roleclaim, then if I am satisfied with his answer, vote up either KillingTime or Stutters. I still feel there's a decent chance of debears and Thrawn ending up being Mason, and that would just mean I've been on the wrong track the whole time, but their buddy-buddyness is making me think mafia. But then I come back to the fact that they're still posting, and that's better than the lurkers. So you now all of you know exactly what I want to do, and you know exactly how scummy it is in plain English. I want to put him up to L-1, hear what he has to say, and then move onto one of the people we're not getting information from. | ||
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This is my alternative to lynching him day 1. My plan at the start was just pressure, now I do sort of want to lynch him, but I'd rather just pressure and go after a lurker for day 1. | ||
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So if I'm mafia, my plan is akin to gamethrowing. I'd be killing two mafia to kill a single person that 3 other people agree is suspicious enough to warrant a vote. THAT MAKES NO SENSE. I'll gladly tell you after my plan fails or succeeds what it was. Hell, at this point it's almost worth dropping just because it's going to get me lynched at this pace. | ||
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On September 20 2012 00:25 kushm4sta wrote: ANTECEDENTS PEOPLE....... What is "that"? No idea what this sentence means. No idea what your "plan" is (all I know is it's stupid) No idea who you are saying would be lynched or who would be mafia. Sounds like a bunch of wifom speculation. I was referring to your post, if I put debears up to L-1 and someone came in from lurking and quick hammered him, that'd be suicide. You'd instantly lynch that person for a single town kill. Mafia going 1:1 with town is dumb. THere's no two ways about it. So if my plan is from a mafia perspective, it's just plain dumb. Because that would get me lynched too. So assuming I'm mafia and that's my plan, the mafia would be trading two people for a single townsperson. If I were SK that plan would never work either for much the same reason, except I'd be relying on a random quickhammer. So obviously I have a different plan than either of those things. | ||
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On September 20 2012 00:30 KillingTime wrote: I am here at the moment (around for a half hour or so) - if you want to ask me anything then you can. Other than the fact I was away last night (and therefore "lurky" to you) - why else do you think I am scum? Hm. I had missed a post of yours before. That's why. Your Filter thing on the front page isn't working properly, so I had to scan through everything, and I missed at least one post. My apologies. I still think you came off a little scummy when you first entered the game, but I hadn't thought about Atreides posts before that. I'm now less suspicious of you, and a little more of Atreides, but not enough that you two are my preffered lurker lynch. That spot now goes solely to Stutters. | ||
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Debears, your play has struck me as scummy, but I wasn't playing with full knowledge of the situation. You and Thrawn both stand a much better chance of being town in my eyes than you did 5 minutes ago. So, I'm going with the lurkers now. Remedy, that vote randomly popping up on Kush is pretty suspicious to me, but I'm still more suspicious of stutters. So that's where my vote is going for now, but depending on Stutters next post, it could end up on Remedy very easily. ##unvote debears ##vote stutters695 | ||
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On September 20 2012 00:52 thrawn2112 wrote: fish are assholes. apparently worms are no longer a viable part of the fish diet. only managed to catch 1. sharrant: Please give me at least one possible example where "forcing" someone to roleclaim under threat of a lynch will end up being good. I don't see it. Also, you keep talking about this crazy plan you have that you won't divulge to us..... we're just supposed to accept on faith that it's a good plan and therefore you're town? kush you have been asked this several times by different people but I still don't like your explanation of why you prefer debears over sharrant. I think you said that both of their play is bad but that debears play is bad scum wheras sharrant is bad town. So what you're saying is that dickriding a player looks scummier than asking for roleclaims, voting for people you have no intentions of lynching, being obssesed with blue and sk roles, and saying "guys dont lynch me I have a secret plan"? I can see why people would think that debears is scummy but I can't see how they see him scummier than sharrant unless they're going off of half-baked association cases. @Thrawn You keep bringing up the blues in response to me, I don't know why. I mentioned Kush fitting the SK role with his style of play, because it was scummy but independently scummy. Blue roles came just because they were an off thing of what I was expecting, it's a possibility that anyone is a blue. At this point I think I have you and debears pinned down pretty specifically to a role, and it's not mafia. If you're the role I think you are, you should be able to figure out what I am from my posts today. Also, you misread that, I was displaying the situation from a mafia perspective, thus "going 1:1 with town is dumb". It's very good to do that from a town perspective. @Kush Yes, this is my first game of forum mafia. I'm used to playing with similar but different roles, so that's why my plan was so awful in this version of mafia. | ||
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The mod never made mention of either of you, the question did not have anything to do with either of you. It was a question of mechanics which made both of you appear less scummy to me. Make of that what you will, I think you should be able to figure it out with what I was saying earlier. @SDM 1. Werewolf, MafiaSC2, and just regular Mafia. All of those have had some form of independent killer. Werewolf having lonewolf/witch, Mafia SC2 having MM/Arson/SK, and regular mafia having SK as well. This is not my first rodeo. 2. No, I haven't read through any of the games on this forum in detail. I've read through a number of games at mafiascum though. 3. At that point both of them had struck me as scummy players. Killing for going after easy reads, debears for parroting. Killing had made some mention of debears being mafia and went as far as to vote for him. I saw this as an issue that would end up being a distraction when it's two scummy players against each other, so I wanted to focus it on the one I found more scummy and see more of how thrawn and debears both reacted. 4. Yes, you are right about that, I was meaning when I posted to vote him. I had a slight town read on both of them before the fact that debears was just reposting what thrawn had written crept more into my mind. So I put in my vote, based on the fact that at that point they were both scummy to me, with debears being slightly ahead. I figured only one would be mafia, I could be wrong and it could be Killing that is. At this point, I am not interested in Thrawn or debears as a lynch until I see more of what they say. When I looked at what they said, I had an incorrect grasp of the roles, their abilities, and their possibilities in this game, looking at it with new information it strikes me as very possible that they are both town. 5. My read on him as SK was also always backed up by the fact that it could also always be explained by just poor townie play. I picked up on him as SK or "town that just blurts things out" because he was so afraid of NKs, and the few sort of slips he did have were not real mafia slips. They looked scummy to me, but not what I would expect from a mafia, rather what I've seen from other SKs. His last few posts have made me sure he's not mafia. THere's still a small chance he could be SK, but for now I view him as town until there's proof of an SK. To me the "please don't kill me"s seemed genuine enough that I didn't believe he was mafia, but the slips also pushed me in a scummy direction. Thus that was the only step that could take. | ||
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My plan is null because of things I did not know about the roles. Yes, getting lynched is on my mind. But if I have to I'll reveal, and it should be fairly apparent that I'm town. If I told you what I asked, it would tell you my role. If you combine those two facts, it should be fairly obvious to figure out what my role is, assuming you believe that I'm telling the truth about either of them. The fact that I'm calm comes from being put up fairly often. I'm used to trial and lynch games, where votes are much freer. You put someone up to 50%+1 and then a trial begins where they give their final defense, and then people vote innocent or guilty. I'm also used to games where a double nomination begins a trial. I'm not particularly used to 50%+1 is a kill, so I intended to use L-1 as a trial stand similar to how I do in other games. In that style of voting you often end up being called out and role claiming is quite often on the first day (again though, I'm used to D1 being post night phase) so there is often a jailor/investigative role of some kind/doc that can confirm them in some way shape or form. @SDM Yes, I have used reads from other games in this game. THey are games I played in. They were rendered moot by the information I found out. It was a question I should have asked at the start of the game, because it was not mentioned in the roles, but I had just assumed it. @Thrawn Yes, there was the slimmest chance I thought he was a blue. I thought it was more likely he was SK, or loud town, then the very teeny possibility he was just the world's most obvious blue. When you questioned my vote it was also after several more posts of yours, and the way your posting changed when you called me out on that. You stopped being cool, you started being aggressive. Why the change in demeanor from me going after the guy that's buddying up to you? It wasn't OMGUS that had he ready to go after you, it was how you reacted to debears, and how he reacted to you. After that I realized how many lurkers we still had, and decided I was less comfortable with my read on you two because of your posting (not because of debears, he's more scummy than you at this point in my mind). So I figured you two are still going to post the same amount the next day, let's get someone who has just been hiding all day. Yes, I decided I shouldn't go after you guys anymore based on information I had been previously unaware of, that would explain the way you two were acting based upon my role. I can't get much more obvious without spelling it out. So I settled on Stutters for scummiest lurker, and was waiting for his post before I decided whether I was more comfortable going after Remedy instead. | ||
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The Mason set up I'm used to has all masons being able to talk to each other, as opposed to pairs of masons that speak only to their partner. With that information in mind, rethink about what plans I might have had, and I think you'll see what I was bread crumbing for you and debears to do if you were both mafia. For now, Thrawn, I'm ready to concede that you're town. There are still things that don't add up in my eyes, and those are the things involving debears. @debears Killing came back into my sights a few pages ago. I dropped him again after his post mentioning Atreides that you quoted. You're right though, I thought he would have made more posts since I came back. @SDM, @debears I'm going to have to agree with you two at this point. At this point my vote is going to be going to killer, Stutters' recent posts have put him on good footing, and Cubu is still just an unkown quantity. unvote Stutter695 vote KillingTime @Rethos you have missed things. Thrawn picked up on it, but he's unsure whether or not he believes me. Since this is piling up so much, I guess I'll be the one that has to claim today, although it's already pretty obvious. I'm Mason, I was trying to bread crumb debears and Thrawn into claiming Mason under the assumption that all masons are aware and can talk, rather than just pairs. That's why I brought up the fact that they could be masons several times either directly our roundabout, to give them an easy way out of looking scummy that matches what they had already done. If we had voted debears up and he had claimed mason, we would have immediately had two mafia members. But this was before I knew that Masons were pairs and that there could be multiple pairs. @Drazak ... You honestly had time to got hrough every single post and then voted me with a single sentence completely lacking any justification AND you did it in such a way that you look like you're only suggesting that you might be voting for me. AND you commited the cardinal sin of putting someone at L-1 without giving them warning. You just reached my number one spot. ##unvote KillingTime ##vote Drazak You're scum, and you just had the most obvious bandwagonning in the world. | ||
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I AM AT L-1. The next vote will kill me. | ||
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##unvote Stutters695 ##vote Drazak | ||
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The fact that you don't even acknowledge that voting for someone with not even a word of explanation, and putting them at L-1 without declaring it is scummy, is even more scummy. | ||
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Then I take back the part about L-1, question why no one else said anything about it earlier when I brought up L-1, and apologize to Drazak about it. But still, Drazak, do you not see why posting a vote with aboslutely no reasoning is scummy? | ||
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Every single time I said they could have been Masons was me trying to get them to claim it, or consider it as a claim. And really, after the town was so hugely against a role claim, you want me to out another player before it's confirmed whether or not I'll be lynched? Then what, I die to a town lynch, and then my partner dies to mafia or possibly SK over night? | ||
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Actually, I've changed my mind about this. If I out him most likely only one of us dies tonight, a confirmed townie will survive, and best of all, it will possibly save a blue's life. So here's the part where you guys either instantly decide I'm guilty by assosciation, or whether I just am the mason with the shittiest luck ever. My mason buddy... is (drum roll please)... CUBU The current post count in our QT is 10, 8 posts by me, 2 by Marvel! Hooray! | ||
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You'll notice how the only time I ever acknowledged Cubu about lurking is once when I said "We should go after the scummy lurker instead of the afk lurker" That's because Cubu is my partner. And has not said a single thing to me yet. Hopefully he shows up in this thread to confirm me. More like he will show up in this thread at 7:55 and I'll die because no one will be there to notice. | ||
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There is no possibility of a medic. There is a possibility of a jail keeper. I'm somewhat willing to go through with this. I really, really, really, really don't like it. It involves killing the only person I can confirm as town. And it means one of the scummier players also gets to D2 unhindered. But it would confirm me as town if I can live through the night (I'm a bit happier with that part). And it's not like Cubu has really contributed much. | ||
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I see your point, we mislynch tonight, and we're back in the same situation on Day 2 if mafia doesn't kill either Cubu or me. We'll still be unconfirmed unless Cubu wakes up and makes a post, and even then it will still look scummy so we will most likely end up having to kill either me or Cubu to confirm that me and Cubu are both town. But lynching Cubu is (and only is for me) knowledge that we're killing a town. I don't like that, even though he hasn't contributed anything. It might be the more reasonable answer at this point though. | ||
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HE has 6 total posts. 2 of them one liners, one of them a one liner with a vote. He voted me without mentioning anything, just the vote. He also put it inside another sentence to make it less obvious he actually was voting for me. He has posted 0, and I repeat 0 attempts at scumhunting. Not even a bad attempt, not even an attempt at parroting. Just nothing. Only defensive posts. Killing is up there for me still, but Drazak is my #1. | ||
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I hope we go for a lurker lynch. I'm not even confident enough to go after debears anymore, even with him kind of dissapearing. | ||
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And no, a few one line posts aren't enough content for me. I thought you read all of the posts up until you voted for me? You have an hour and a half, right? (am I wrong, I thought deadline was 8 pm) Surely it can't be that hard to type up your reason for voting me, or coming up with something, literally anything from what you read. | ||
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Kush (1) debears (1) Sharrant (2) Cubu (2) Drazak (4) Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and I would also appreciate it if the mods did a vote count for accuracy. | ||
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KT is a good vote with him running away as things are getting interesting. Drazak still sticks out in my mind because of how immediately defensive he got and the whole "I'll have good reads tomorrow if I don't die tonight" seemed really scummy to me. I'm willing to vote KT, but my preferred is Drazak. | ||
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I'm glad to know where we stand. I know it's a tricky situation. I could be mafia hiding with the lurkiest lurker to ever lurk, or I am a mason and you have to kill one of us to find out. It's not the prettiest situation in the world. This sitatuation has given me a much clearer read on some people though, but unless you believe my alignment you can't make the same reads. I'm not sure what to say, Drazak. You've got me stuck here. Yeah, it sucks not having time for stuff. But I can't know that for sure. You admitted your vote was pure bandwagonning, no thought. You haven't really done anything during the day. I'm still worried about Killing being mafia. There's no reason that Drazak and Killing couldn't be mafia together though, although they don't have any strong links. Thinking about who to vote for is really getting my head to spin. | ||
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Also, town get to talk during the night? This is interesting. | ||
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I'm not sure about you, I just wanted you to know why it's not a moot point. @Kush Where is all Drazak's scumhunting then? | ||
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On September 20 2012 10:45 thrawn2112 wrote: both, thought it at the time and still think it now Here's why I think the mason claim is fabricated. Before he had revealed what the plan was, he had this to say about it: Plan successful according to his explanation of the plan = he baits mason claims out of scum debears and scum thrawn, and because he is a mason he will have caught us lying because his experience of masons are that if there are more than 2 then they all share the same qt. Soooo where does the 50/50 part come into this? When he first threw out the 50/50 line I was thinking something along the lines of him being a cop and worrying about framers or godfathers and such. My imagined notion of his plan didn't make much sense to me, and with that 50/50 part his given explanation of his plan doesn't seem consitent from before he explanaied the plan and after he explained the plan. Then in that same post where he talks about the 50/50 stuff he also says that now he thinks debears and I are way less scummy. That isn't consistent with his earlier reads either. How does his supposed plan being destroyed by information from a mod make him think we are less scummy? The whole purpose of the plan in the first place was to catch scum lying... so if the plan won't work that means he has to drop his scumreads on me/debears? His next read on debears and I is that we are masons, remember this is after he said he pm'd the mod. He doesn't directly come out and say this but it is implied. So a short history of his reads on us are: He think's we're both scum. He tries to bait us into claiming mason. That plan won't work because of game mechanics. Therefore debears and I are no longer scum and we're now masons? There are no specific confirmable lies per se, but I just see a bunch of inconsistencies in how he talks about the plan from the time he first mentioned it to the time he finally explained it, and there are illogical transitions between his reads. Also, the Cubu mason claim just looks way too convienient... all throughout the last half of D1 he is asking us to trust him abhout things we have no possible way of confirming and if he's mafia then cubu is the safest townie to lie about. At the point when he dropped the cubu claim I didn't think and I don't think anyone else thought that cubu was going to ever post again. Good morning, everyone! @Thrawn The part where the 50/50 comes in is because of the altered Mason mechanics. You could have claimed Mason, and I would've been liked "Fuck yeah, mafia" in the standard I'm used to (All Masons know each other). However, that post came out after I found out about the different Mason mechanics. So if you had claimed Mason all I could've done is gone "Fuck yeah, those guys actually could be Masons because they haven't really had a 3rd buddy, or they might be mafia together with a lurker" suddenly you claiming Mason was not the be all end all of catching you. So suddenly you guys seemed a lot less scummy because it was actually possible you were both masons. I said before, I still wasn't sure about both of you. The fact that neither of you took the easy claim could have left you both as mafia that didn't want to take an easy out, or that only one of you is mafia so the claim is stupid and unsafe, or that neither of you are and the claim is unneeded. Debears is still a slightly scummy read from me, last nights incident didn't really help my read on him. He wasn't particularly involved aside from in a swing in, swing out post. SDM, and Thrawn I have very strong reads on from that, you both easily could have pushed a bandwagon on me very hard, and it likely would have stuck. So neither of you strike me as red because you had the perfect opportunity to lynch a fairly active person claiming mason, and both dumped it. Kush's read is less stable at this point. The same read applies to him, he quickly jumped in to help me out after I claimed, however he seems much more certain as to my actual alignment. I'm chalking this up solely to the fact that he doesn't think I'm dumb enough to try and pull this off from a scum perspective, rather than him being mafia and knowing my alignment. His posts immediately into the night phase were shaky though, that's given me pause in my read. I'll have to think more about it. Mason chat away Our topic was "to make out together baby" Marvellosity- "This is masonQT for Newbie XXVII. Good luck!" Sharrant- "Hey! So I guess this is our little "behind the bleachers" place, eh? There've been lots of accusations of you not posting much, I'm not putting too much faith into them. Post when you can, I'll defend you when I need to, and let's figure out this shit. I already posted my case on Kush, my reads beyond that are weak. And even that one is fairly weak, but at least it's something to start with. " Sharrant- "Hey, buddy, you've gotta get posting. You're being fixed up for a lynch, and I'd like to hear your insight on the playing field right now." Sharrant- "I may as well post it here, I'm hoping only obs can see. The whole point of my decision to force a claim on debears is due to how buddy buddy he is with Thrawn. They're so on each other so hard that I assume they're mafia. But I've been dropping the hint for them to claim mason, so I want to force debears up on the hopes that he claims mason and we get two mafia out of it. They most likely won't and it will be a failed attempt, but it has at least helped me clarify reads on a few people. My biggest town reads right now are Sonic and Jacob. Biggest scum reads are Thrawn and debears." Sharrant- "Bad news, apparently mason pairs cannot talk to other mason pairs like I am used to. So there is a chance they actually are masons. I'm dropping from them right now. You better post or else you're going to end up getting lynched. I can't keep ignoring you as a potential target without opening myself up to more suspicion." Marvellosity- "FYI, only hosts can see this QT." Sharrant- "Neat! I wasn't sure how it was set up. Thank you for the clarification. :-)" Sharrant- "So, I've got a whole forum to myself. Whatever will I do with it." Sharrant- "Honestly, any time you want to come into the game, that'd be cool. If you don't seem, I'm going to start walking around naked in this QT." Sharrant- "Oops, I said seem when I meant soon." Sharrant- "I'm literally wiping my balls on the submit message button right now. Touch it if you dare." Sharrant- "If Cubu lives and gets replaced, I'm so sorry to the new mason. You didn't deserve the ballsweat on the message button." I'm tempted not to post this part to preserve Marvellosity's honour, but what the hell. Marvellosity- "I'm enjoying this tremendously. *especially* the ball sweat." Sharrant- "Then just you wait, if I'm trapped in here by myself for a few days there's going to be a lot more than just ball sweat on that button. You can bet on that, baby." Sharrant- "What? I have to share my fortress with someone else too? I only want you!" Marvellosity- "New player incoming " No, that isn't a novel about my budding romance with Marvellosity due to stockholm syndrome after being captured and put in the Mason QT, that is everything I've said in there up until now. And everything Cubu has said. If you've got anything more you want answered after that, I'll be happy to. But make it quick, there's the potential that you only have 10 hours to ask. I'm going to do a more thorough read on everything that happened while I was away, a post will be up on that shortly. | ||
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You became suspicious in my eyes when you refused to acknowledge debears buddying up to you as scummy in the slightest, and became scummy in my eyes when you seemed upset when people went after him. It was mainly the change in your posting style that suggested a link between you two. The reason I was happy to write that off as Mason afterwards is once that possibility was introduced, you going on the attack for him being accused makes a lot of sense. You can't rely on having 3 votes, you have to convince people, and you weren't particularly defensive about the accusations, just visibly upset. Later you claimed Non-Mason, but by this point I had a much more town read of you which only increased as we got closer to the deadline for the reason I posted before, dismantling the easy bandwagon on a claimed green. Maybe that was a gamble on your part, he's green, let's go after an unknown quantity and hope he's blue, but that's very doubtful in my eyes. | ||
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M-8:14PM 17th S-10:56AM 18th S-11:17 PM S-11:22 AM 19th S-11:50 AM M-12:14 PM S-1:01 PM S-5:09 PM S-5:20 PM S-5:28 PM S-5:46 PM S-6:42 PM M-7:37 PM S-7:50 PM S-8:05 PM M-8:07 AM Yeah, I probably should've posted my plan into my mason box earlier, but I was waiting for him to say literally anything first. | ||
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Time stamps are all in EDT @SDM After I learned the mason mechanics, I think it's covered in my other post. It became apparent they could both actually be Masons, thus if they claimed Mason, it was not possible to immediately act on it because there's a distinct possibility of it being true. @Thrawn Yes, at that point you weren't for sure scum in my eyes, I just had you as suspicious, and debears as scum. But since both of you seemed to be buddied it seemed to be worth the risk. | ||
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Yes, it's not that it's 50/50, it's just that it makes his claim possible, which means even if they had claimed Mason after that, it was no longer guaranteed they were mafia, so we would potentially go "You're not a mason!" -> debears dies and is revealed Mason "No, you're not a mason!" Sharrant dies and is revealed mason -> we just wasted two lynches due to a misunderstanding I caused. @Thrawn Okay, so, the times for stuff you wanted, Thrawn. At the beginning of the game you lobbed out the real softball question "Do we lynch the last lurker into the thread"? Then debears comes and hits a home run, and answers it perfectly, but then also says that it's his first game, but Thrawn is "my man crush". He comes in and defends you later about the softball question, saying he has a town read on you at this point based solely on the fact that you lobbed a softball question out there, and a mafia would never do that. He then makes a case on you being town, and then says he agrees with all of your points on everyone up to that point. He continues defending you, and then goes after SDM based on a joke about Kush's post. You then also go after SDM, over the same post, but also keep up with several other players (Kush's lack of scum hunting, Killing's vote on debears which links back to you and debears again). Now, the KillingTime/debears thing, is that KT seemed scummy as all hell for that vote, but I did agree with his target AND he won town points with me for actually voting. It was way too early, way too uncoordinated, and had no logic behind bussing debears. So it's scummy player versus scummy player fairly early on with a vote already placed. But with debears defense of you, and the links you two had shared up until that point, I decided that you were the bigger target. More risk, but more reward. If I went after KillingTime, and we had gotten a lynch on him based on that evidence, then we would've possibly gotten one unconnected mafia that gave us no leads on who his buddies might be. Going after you was a bigger risk/reward. Possibility of two mafia, but it would also take a pretty aggressive approach on my part, but you guys have already been very buddy buddy, and at that time I was sure there could only be one group of masons. So I put started putting the pressure on, and you started getting visibly frustrated in your posts. At least that's how it seemed to me, I'm not sure what your posting style is, but you had cooler responses, and you seemed more emotional in the ones related to me, or people going after debears. Eventually we get to the point where debears is actually ahead in the vote count, exactly where I wanted him earlier, when I realized, hm, I'm not sure about that mechanic exactly, I should PM Marvel. So I PM'ed him, got the answer, and tried to immediately call off the bandwagon that had started on debears because I had made a critical error earlier in not asking. At this point I figured it was pretty obvious I was a mason but didn't want to reveal my plan entirely because that involves going "hey, I'm a mason". So because of that I ended up being the one with all of the votes. At this point I still had a big tool, revealing I'm a mason and having Cubu back me up. That's why I was so calm through everyone's accusations (well, I'm generally pretty clam, but having a trump card made it easier). Eventually I am forced to reveal, but I don't want to give up my mason buddy because I consider that bad play. My plan at that point was to try and convince you guys to not lynch me, or if I was sure of being lynched I would leave a message hidden in a post that Cubu could refer back to and prove he actually was my partner. People still wanted to lynch either me or Cubu though, so I thought it through, imagined every scenario that could come of this, and decided revealing us both was better. We potentially take up a night kill that could kill a jailkeeper or a cop, if one of us ever dies the other is automatically confirmed, and I stop two 100% sure mislynches in trade for one possible good lynch. Then Thrawn brought up the point about killing Cubu to confirm me, I didn't like that plan, but it has merit. Unfortunately it would leave town down 2 members with no mafia killed guaranteed. So that's still an option if you guys don't find all my answers satisfactory, or if Sharky also ends up lurking this game. | ||
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I guess I didn't need to post the wall of text after that, but I felt it would help to explain my motives on you and debears to the fullest. I think that will be the last I have to say about being a mason, still, if there are questions I'll happily answer. For now I'd like to move back onto scum hunting rather than having to prove my role. Up on my radar right now is (in no particular order) debears, Atreides, and kush. I need to read through JAcob's most recent posts again before I have a more solid idea on him. Kush right now is up there mainly for his points immediately after Drazak's death. He says he was just bandwaggoning, got caught up writing a post so he missed the deadline, but he also never thought Drazak was lurking and the biggest slip up in my eyes. He thought Drazak was doing great things scumhunting. I can't find a post by Drazak where he's scumhunting. Also his latest posts were one lined little bits saying almost nothing. Atreides pops up because he sort of appears every now and again, says a few things and pops off. Doesn't really seem to hunt for people, but had something to say after Drazak died nonetheless. debears is up there for everything that happened earlier, but I'm still trying to process how the last half of day 1 changed my opinion of him. He's had good and bad posts since then which I'll need to take a closer look at. | ||
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Atreides, I'd like your reads on all of the people involved with my bandwagon, the Drazak bandwagon, and on Killing. What made you decide that Cubu, Killing, Drazak, and Stutters were not good lynch candidates? @Kush Can you please show where Drazak's scum hunting was, I would like an explanation on this point specifically On September 20 2012 09:09 kushm4sta wrote: I didn't even think drazak is scummy. I just voted for him now because of the last minute omg we need to vote for someone confusion. 1 he is not that scummy. a lot of scumhunting and nothing that strikes me as a huge scumslip 2 he's not even a lurker. I thought he was more of a lurker but I just went through his filter and I would not consider him a lurker. He had a few posts on day 1 that made him seem active, but they said very little. Then he promises more posts after he sleeps. His next post is a vote with a single line of text. And then he only really shows up when he's being put up on the vote, and they don't offer any scumhunting. The only time it gets close is when he called out SDM because he posted his reasoning in the post before he voted. | ||
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When Atreides said "mafia obviously had a big hand" in the bandwagon switching over, that is not just a stupid statement, that is a scummy statement. You can't deny that. It's taking a big opportunity (the flipping of a green) to then paint ALL of the most active players as mafia. If he's mafia, that's absolutely a reason to say it. That's motive. Not sure if he's mafia, but if he were I would expect him and Kush to be mafia together. THe Atreides/Kush team is definitely a stretch, but that's the feeling I have at this point. They've both come and left at awkward times, both had something to say immediately after Drazak flipped green, and their explanations were both questionable. Thrawn being mafia is possible, on one hand he stopped a bandwagon on someone he would have then known for sure was not lying about being the mason. On the other he was pushing to lynch Cubu to verify my claim (which most likely would have ended in my night death). I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one. SDM is relatively good in my books, at this point I'm thinking of him as town. Remedy is still an unknown quantity in my eyes. I'm especially not following his little bit on Thrawn and Drazak there, Thrawn attacked Drazak, not defended. Jacob seems like town for the most part, but he's a weak read for me. If I'm alive in 10 minutes I'll be going through his filter very thoroughly. KillingTime is still suspicious. Did Atreides or Kush ever go after him? I think Kush mentioned he would've gone for him, but still went with Drazak, so that makes it less likely, but I'm not sure. Stutters is worrying, I'd look into him as he starts to post more. But I really don't know, there's been too little from him to get a really good read. Rethos has always given me a scum feeling, but I've never had real strong evidence to be able to back up that feeling. Debears was scummy early, seemed pretty townie during the last bit of day 1. I'm more interested in how his case against Thrawn will hold up across Day 2, that's where I think the most earnest read of him will come from. Remember, there could be an SK even if there are no kills, at this point as SK that would be my plan because you guys aren't used to playing with a serial killer. It's very different from the mafia in the way it has to be played. Hopefully more from me on D2, otherwise good bye, and good luck! | ||
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Why am I so sure? Because I was roleblocked, and it had previously been discussed me being RB'ed by the jailor so that I wouldn't die. It makes no sense for anyone else to RB me, either we have a seperate town RB'er who is still very suspicious of me, or we have a very bad mafia RB'er who thought RB'ing a mason would actually do something. In my mind it's much more likely SDM RB'ed me, and a townie or mafia RB'ed Thrawn. Thrawn, I would like to know exactly how your RB text was written. EXACTLY. Please. Now here's where things get tricky. I assume SDM RB'ed me to save me. And there was another possible jailor, possible vanilla roleblock, or possible lie about a role block by Thrawn. (I do consider Thrawn fairly town so I'm not sure about him lying, it seems to be a big risk). So here's where the really big question comes in If someone is jailed and attacked, are they informed they survived an attack? Because if they are not informed, it's entirely possible that I was attacked, or Thrawn was attacked, but we don't know. Thus the SK possibility is just as high as it started. Hell, it's entirely possible that due to the flavour we're considering that a mafia attack, when it was an SK attack. He's said the fluff is just fluff, so we don't know what type of scum killed him. (For now I'm still considering it a mafia attack though, but it's a 70-30 thing because I think mafia would more likely go after me, and SK more likely SDM, but this is a newbie game so that's just speculation) If we are informed, then it's most likely there is no SK, unless they took a liking to my earlier post on how I would play an SK in this situation. Rethos' replacement is kind of out of the blue for me, I had a scum feeling about him before, I'm not sure how that will change with him suddenly having a new personality. Kush does stand out to me as a distinct possibility as mafia, but I do agree we should focus more on the lurkier players still. THere's a very good chance that the group of Dandel Ion, Remedy, Atreides, KillingTime contain at least one scum. Just spitballing here, but Remedy+KillingTime or Dandel Ion+Atreides make the most sense as teams in my head unless there's some attack-y stuff between them I'm not remembering. There's a good chance only one of those 4 is scum though, unfortunately it's hard to read while they're still lurking. At least with Dandel Ion we should hopefully be getting a more clear read today. Also, especially with the new players joining it's imperrative you check the spelling of people's names. Honestly, my name was misspelled ninety percent of the time on Day 1, it got a little annoying. And some of them were really funny on other people, like Atreides had his name bombed pretty hard. | ||
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I really like Dandel's post. If nothing else it makes me think of him as much more likely being town. Rethos totally fucked him over in that regards though. His weird little freakout/lying spree/wah wah I quit really painted him as scummy. Dandel, you're still really suspicious to me, but you haven't really had time to make a case either way. I've mentioned even before Rethos freaked out that I was pretty sure he was scum, just based on a feeling. And then he gives me evidence as powerful as that. There seems to be a growing movement against Thrawn, but I'm suspicious of the people who it comes from. It's a possibility I've kept in mind, primarily from the times he has started posting very aggresively, but unless something big comes out, I don't think I'm on board with trying to bandwagon him. I'd rather wait for him to slip up later. On a Kush/Thrawn/Stutters team Stutters was someone that Thrawn avoided in his lurker lynch policy, when I still considered him a strong lurker (but less so than Drazak after his bandwagon vote on me, and than Killing post his earlier scumminess). If I'm wrong, please show me where, but I believe Thrawn has avoided Stutters for the most part. He's shown a lot of bluster when dealing with Kush, they've picked fights, but they've never actually gone after each other for the most part. There's a possible bus set up by Kush, but I dunno, that'd be a rather convenient team. Now where that falls apart somewhat is with Thrawn's current case against Stutters. He's either setting up a possible bus because of Stutters lack of posting, or he's a legitimate town thinking that Stutters hasn't been posting and was part of the mislynch bandwagon. Problems I have with this: He's bussing when there's a really strong bandwagon on Dandel? Unlikely. But I also have a problem with the set up, it's rather weak on its dependence on the premise that at least 1 mafia was involved in the lynching. I keep hearing a lot about how Kush is off his game, I can't attest to that, I can however say he does seem to ignore possibilities entirely at several points. Not seeing the scum motivation in casting all the voters on the Drazak bandwagon as scum, immediately considering myself and (then Cubu, now) Sharky confirmed town. Yes it would be dumb to be playing a WIFOM game that's so easy to confirm two scum, but it's still a possibility until myself or Sharky dies. So I'm still undecided on Kush as well, fact is he's a fairly regular poster and that also gives him so points in my book. Right now my #1 is Stutters, until I hear more from him, or someone can bring up something I missed that changed my mind. ##vote Stutters695 Remedy is also up there, he's just been lurking hard, and has played slightly scummy. Unfortunately my read hasn't really changed on him because not much has been said by him (again, if I'm missing something please let me know). Dandel is a possible for me. Rethos was scummy as shit by the end, but I'd personally feel bad killing Dandel for that without giving himself a chance to extricate himself from Rethos' bad play. That might be a mistake, I'm not sure. If it comes down to it, I will vote for him. Kush, man, you're still while I may be undecided on you, you're still knee deep in shit just for saying Drazak did a lot of scum hunting. The post you quoted was his only post of any contribution, and it was so weak I don't even know what to say. Maybe it really, really, really did convince you, and I'm just missing the spectacular things hidden inside of that post, but maybe you're trying to buy yourself some town cred. I'm really not sure, you are hard to read at times. | ||
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... You're asking me why I'm focusing on things that you said that make you scummy? What game am I playing again? You're really hard to read, because you don't seem to think things through. So that means pretty much every slip you make is covered by you just saying the first thing that pops into your head. But that also applies to every case you make. You're essentially a permanent null read. Anyways, I did read your case on Jacob, and it is a very valid case. I'm going to go back and read through his filter. Unfortunately Stutters is still riding high on my list, and hasn't been very active to do much about that. Whoa. So I had more I was going to write, I took a break, made some food, came back. And Dandel you just gave me everything I needed. You tell everyone how they should scum hunt, then just sheep onto Stutters. With just one sentence, no real justification, and still more than 7 hours to the deadline. So, now my vote is on you until I hear some reads. Your play is now seeming just as scummy as Rethos. Maybe it's because you were put in a shitty position, but you have my vote until you explain yourself better. You have seven and a half hours, your time starts now. Go. ##unvote ##vote Dandel Ion | ||
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Someone you called scum, called you scum, so you don't want to make any more cases in case someone calls you scum, you're just going to wait until deadline and be lynched? I can't tell if you're gambling on sympathy to not get voted up, or if you're sincere and really hurt by debears saying you're scum. The latter means you're the thinnest skinned individual in the world, and that's a one in six billion chance. | ||
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On September 23 2012 02:19 Dandel Ion wrote: But I understand that nobody will latch onto any of my wagons currently. Last time I pushed a case of mine, debears called me scum for it. Now now, I DO think that debears is scum, but I don't see a better fate for any of my cases as long as I live. My plan right now is to set it up so that you will look back at my cases after I flip green and go all "oh he was green maybe I should actually read what he writes instead of jumping to stupid conclusions first" So I currently hope that you won't just ignore my posts after I get lynched, and look at the people I make cases on. That's kind of a far-fetched assuption, given that town doesn't seem to give a shit about winning, but I care about meeting my wincon, so I'm going to do my best to meet my wincon. "You" meaning all of town, not thrawn specifically. What the fuck is that? Honestly. I was going to bold the important parts, but it's all so... what the fuck? You pushed a case. Debears called you scum. You think debears is scum. But "I don't see a better fate for any of my cases as long as I live". So what? I told you to convince me that you're town, Rethos left you in a hole and you're digging it deeper. You say you're trying to meet your win condition. How exactly? Let's say you're town, you're willfully getting lynched. You're not trying to convince anyone, you've apparently given up on scumhunting in the hopes that your reads are then taken more seriously when you die. So you want the town to be down another town member on the second day, and then another at night. So you're perfectly fine with 4 town deaths in a row. How is that trying to meet your win condition unless you're not town. Let's say you're mafia. You're pretty sure you're found out, but you don't want to give out any potential information on your scumbuddies so you clam up, so that you go down without revealing anyone else. One of those sounds a lot more likely with everything you've said. You're not doing yourself any favours. Trying to make yourself a martyr as town ISN'T GOING TO HELP. So make some cases, and then you might not be the one lynched, and you might actually get that scum kill you were looking for. | ||
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Consider me convinced for now. I still think you're scummy, but you get a pass until tomorrow. You seemed honestly exasperated, I don't see the harm in keeping you around at least for another day while we go after someone with more of a filter. I'm hesitant to place a vote on Remedy or Stutters just yet. It seems a little odd that Killing dissapeared off the radar a second time though. But I do agree that Remedy or Stutters seem like the better votes at this point. | ||
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I think what I find most interesting right now, is that Dandel and Remedy are both voting for Stutters. Despite the fact that he will most likely get mod killed or replaced, or at the very least that it's a possibility. I also point this out because Remedy was Dandel's supposed biggest scum read, but they're voting together. They don't have a particularly strong assosciative case, but I find it very peculiar that they would both end up voting for the same person, an almost non-entity who will likely be replaced or killed, even though they have both at least somewhat considered each other scum. Dandel having Remedy as his BIGGEST scum read, and Remedy mentioning Dandel a few times in a more neutral but scummy tone (although defending Rethos' boredom claim). None of those things are particularly conclusive, but I think if Remedy flips scum then Dandel would be a good spot to start tomorrow. ##vote RemedySC Dandel's vote changed before I actually managed to post this, not sure if he's bussing since one of them was dying regardless. Though Jacob saying he needs another argument is a bit of a slip. That is interesting. | ||
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At this point the players we have left are as follows: Kush Sharrant Dandel Atreides Debears Sharky Thrawn Jacob KillingTime A third of those people are scum, and up to 6 of them are townies. These numbers might be off slightly if, say, SK replaces a mafia member. Then we would be at 6-2-1 but I really don't know. It seems doubtful that there's an SK in the game at this point, but in our situation it could be useful. Most likely a townie will die tonight, leaving us at 5 v 3. This is still a strong position for us. There are a bunch of good things that can happen in this night phase though. We know there is still a role blocker, hopefully a town player. We could come out of night phase at 6 v 3 even. Their best strategy is to take out a confirmed town, that way they spread more confusion. Now it's very unlikely that there's an SK in this game, but they need to know their stakes too. The less town there are, the less people you have to hide in amongst. Your best bet (if you exist) is to kill a mafia member either tonight or tomorrow night. At this point if SK has good suspicions he's almost an ally, we have the same short term goal. That's the end of me mentioning SK until we actually see evidence of one, but at this point I'm almost hoping they're in the game. Okay, onto the meat and potatoes. At this point, I'm fairly certain of Kush being town. When he wanted the bandwagon switched onto STutters, I thought he had just thrown the game for the mafia, but with Stutters and Remedy both flipping town, that pretty much clears him in my books. It is entirely possible for that to just be a calculated risk, as scum he would know both are town, but I don't see him playing it that way. Thrawn is someone I'm waffling about now. He makes the same case for Kush that I do though, which is a big plus at this point. He also took the time to confirm at least two time stamps, which does also add townie points. Both of those things a mafia could do just as easily, but there's less motivation. He did push for a Cubu lynch, based on a solid premise but faulty logic. So that's neither here no there. There's a really big question that I don't know if I can ask though, that's been killing me. You already posted in quotes what your roleblock PM said, before Marvel said that was against the rules. I just want to know, was there a period at the end of the sentence or not? Marvel, if he's not allowed to answer that, please say right away. Sorry if that question is against the rules. Moving on from Thrawn. Debears made a very good point against Atreides "How do you know how many mafia there are?" It's entirely possible we have a 6-3 set up, a 5-2-1 set up, or even just a 7-2 set up. It seems likely that there are only 3 (in fact that's the assumption I've been going off of) but to be able to say without a doubt there are 3 is not possible for me. He's made some silly posts at odd times, which has bumped him up to be a good suspect in my eyes. He is also a possessor of that same strange trait that causes him to lurk, be suspicious, but not to ever have any real pressure put on him. An odd thing to note, is that while there have been a number of clear 2 way assosciative cases possible, I have yet to see a three way case, which does make it seem there may not be a third mafia member. Dandel is a big mystery right now. Rethos was scummy as all hell the way he left, but most of the things I find scummy about Dandel are things that also have a town motivation. I see a series of things he brings up in his post, that is either a brilliantly laid scum plan, or just plain skepticism from a townie. I also don't particularly like his post about holding off on his reads until tomorrow. He is right though, as town or mafia it would be plenty unlikely that he dies. Killing: He says some scummy things, never seems to quite get everyone's attention, and then slinks back away until someone brings him up again. The thread is 52 pages long and he has not quite filled 2 pages worth of posts. I'd go after him as a lurker if we still had that luxury. I'm not convinced he's scum, but there aren't many options left at this point. Jacob: Kush mentioned that he's posting mroe all of a sudden, and how that may be a possible self defence mechanism, that seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I've thought he was town before, and his posts seem good, but they only really cover 3 people. At this point I don't think Killing is a good call. He's scummy, he's lurky, but apparently that was his meta last game, and we need to be 100% sure the person we're lynching is mafia, otherwise that most likely ends the game right there. Unless something unexpected happens, I believe we could no lynch tomorrow and end up 4 v 3 if we don't have a good case, it would at least give us another 72 hours to figure out who is the scum. This is a very strong position supposing that Sharky and I survive up to that point. If we make it there, we have a strong chance of finding scum just by a random vote. That makes me suspect that either Sharky or I will die tonight, though I don't really see a reason for them killing Sharky at this point. I should have one more post before the deadline in me. | ||
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10:10 AM ET (US) Sharrant "Let's make sure this is EDT" 09-20-2012 11:05 AM ET (US) Sharky "why did you reveal to them that you and cubu are masons?" 09-20-2012 11:08 AM ET (US) Sharrant "At that point either I was dead, or Cubu was dead. No two ways about it." 09-20-2012 11:17 AM ET (US) Sharrant "This way at least one of us survives until tomorrow to be a confirmed townie." 09-22-2012 06:59 AM ET (US) Marvel "so quiet. Let's at least have some sexy-talk." 09-22-2012 08:11 AM ET (US) Sharrant "You did send him the link, right? Because at this point the only one I have to sexy-talk is you. But that's not a bad thing. I kinda like it this way. I think the thing I like most about this place though, is the freedom to post about how you're not wearing pants and then not having to worry about whether not wearing pants is a scum slip or something." 09-22-2012 12:36 PM ET (US) Sharrant "So, there's around 27 hours until I die if the mafia is dumb, longer if they're smart and want to use us as suspects. Any questions you want me to answer? Maybe make out a little while I'm still alive? I mean, you can still make out with me once I'm dead, but people might think it's weird or something." 09-22-2012 12:53 PM ET (US) Sharrant "No, Sharrant, we don't have 20 hour days, they're 24 hour days. 31 hours replaces 27 hours, up until 4 hours from now." 09-22-2012 01:14 PM ET (US) Sharky "Sorry, i was busy. Who should i vote for?" 09-22-2012 01:46 PM ET (US) Sharrant "Dandel isn't a bad vote, but he's one that needs to be flexible, he might just be dumb, not mafia. I'd like to hear your reads at some point. JAcob and debears and Kush are all in my sights as mafia, but they don't strike me as a team. Thrawn is suspicious but I think he's town." There's two recent posts that I had to cut off, I won't be saying anything about them for about an hour and 10 minutes. (Yes, I was talking to myself in that one post) | ||
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He's either a skeptical town player, or a very smart scum player. What am I referring to? He has subtly made reference to, or openly brought up myself and Sharky's mason claim several times. If I don't die tonight, and Sharky doesn't die tonight, then I believe that Dandel is scum. He seems to be trying to put doubt into my claim of mason without bringing any actual evidence up about it, or trying to dispute the evidence I've shown as my mason claim. I think he's planting the seeds of doubt so that tomorrow, when another townie is revealed as dead, but the two almost confirmed town are alive, he can start in on us. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I'm launching the first salvo on this. Unfortunately I hurt my chances of being NK'ed when I posted the Mason QT. I thought I had only mentioned this in my most recent posts, but I completely forget my mention to it being stupid for mafia to kill myself and Sharky earlier. If I'm still alive Dandel is a big target for me. If I die however, it would lessen my suspicion on Dandel, but that will be up to you guys. Hopefully my post about how strong masons are in a 4 v 3 will get Sharky or myself killed. (no offense sharky, but I kinda hope it's you. I like being alive) At this point a single mislynch will cost town the game, a no lynch day postpones the countdown, and a mafia lynch puts us in a great spot. (correct me if I'm wrong, and I may well be wrong due to whatever happens in the night post) I fear that my mason claim is going to be used by the mafia to stall out the town, and to get a mislynch. So hopefully one of the two of us is dead. | ||
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